qT's updated builds and benchmarks

https://qtfy.eu

They're adding new PoF builds o/

qT and everyone worshiping them is so bad for the community. So much bias as well as situations of poor testing (they tested Firebrand using Viper and not Grieving because they do not have gear to test Grieving as per their Reddit posting). On top of that they lead people to believe, for example Necromancer, that classes only have 1 viable build where there may be other options. Yet post builds for Thiefs and Ele that are around 27k. Some classes they post 4-5 or even 6 builds. Then leave certain classes with only one build? Then everyone takes it as gospel.

Using again Necromancer as an example. Condi obviously superior, but there are benchmarks being done in the 31-34k range for Power Scourge (which is above still a few of the "dps" builds posted) but it is not even mentioned so you try to play anything but "META" even thought I would say looking at the number it is still fairly "META" but now the community will blindly follow whatever is listed.

Also, we now have definitive proof that Scourge Shrouds are bugged contrary to what most of the Necro community is saying. I live my life by one simple truth; if Necro has good benchmarks its a bug not a feature.

@Exqq.7451 said:qT and everyone worshiping them is so bad for the community.

I don't see how posting optimized builds and rotations that let you practice and ultimately improve your own gameplay is bad for the community. They are clear that their benchmarks are from a speedrunning perspective and that there are other builds which can work. Anybody who is not able to think critically about the builds and adapt the builds/rotations to each encounter is not going to progress far in raids.

@Exqq.7451 said:qT and everyone worshiping them is so bad for the community. So much bias as well as situations of poor testing (they tested Firebrand using Viper and not Grieving because they do not have gear to test Grieving as per their Reddit posting). On top of that they lead people to believe, for example Necromancer, that classes only have 1 viable build where there may be other options. Yet post builds for Thiefs and Ele that are around 27k. Some classes they post 4-5 or even 6 builds. Then leave certain classes with only one build? Then everyone takes it as gospel.

Using again Necromancer as an example. Condi obviously superior, but there are benchmarks being done in the 31-34k range for Power Scourge (which is above still a few of the "dps" builds posted) but it is not even mentioned so you try to play anything but "META" even thought I would say looking at the number it is still fairly "META" but now the community will blindly follow whatever is listed.

Also, we now have definitive proof that Scourge Shrouds are bugged contrary to what most of the Necro community is saying. I live my life by one simple truth; if Necro has good benchmarks its a bug not a feature.

Who hurt you ?

Just because a few people go out of their way to test doesn't mean the community is bad, nor does it mean people worship them.Also, when is your benchmark coming out ?

@Exqq.7451 said:qT and everyone worshiping them is so bad for the community. So much bias as well as situations of poor testing (they tested Firebrand using Viper and not Grieving because they do not have gear to test Grieving as per their Reddit posting). On top of that they lead people to believe, for example Necromancer, that classes only have 1 viable build where there may be other options. Yet post builds for Thiefs and Ele that are around 27k. Some classes they post 4-5 or even 6 builds. Then leave certain classes with only one build? Then everyone takes it as gospel.

Using again Necromancer as an example. Condi obviously superior, but there are benchmarks being done in the 31-34k range for Power Scourge (which is above still a few of the "dps" builds posted) but it is not even mentioned so you try to play anything but "META" even thought I would say looking at the number it is still fairly "META" but now the community will blindly follow whatever is listed.

Also, we now have definitive proof that Scourge Shrouds are bugged contrary to what most of the Necro community is saying. I live my life by one simple truth; if Necro has good benchmarks its a bug not a feature.

Go ahead and do a better job then. Until then you're just a grumpy naysayer and qT are the guys doing valuable work for the community.

Thanks for cross-posting these.

Even qT has a disclaimer on their website saying to do whatever you want. They are just posting optimized builds, which a lot of pugs will use, but could you run 1 Chrono tank, 1 FB, 1 druid, and 1 Ventari healer instead of two chronos and druids? Yeah, you could, and you could probably get the same/similar results. (This is all theoretical) Run 4 Scourges for all anyone cares, they'll probably pump out better dps than most pug eles.

If they're pug scourges you compare to the pug eles, I wouldn't be so sure. They can do amazingly low dps, too.

Back to topic, I'm somewhat happy that at least five classes have dps builds that are rather close together. Still, I can't help but repeat what I've said quite often: I'd prefer to see a slight nerf to those five builds. All of them. 32-35k is a more healthy range.

@Exqq.7451 said:qT and everyone worshiping them is so bad for the community [...]

From their posting and website (my emphasis):

Benchmarks Disclaimer

• All benchmarks are done with realistic buffs.
• Power class Buffs: 5 GOTL stacks, Spotter, Frost & Sun spirit, Banner of Strength + Discipline, Empower Allies, Alacrity. 5 Boons (Quickness, Fury, Might, Regen, Swiftness)
• Condition class Buffs: 5 GOTL stacks, Spotter, Frost & Sun spirit, Pinpoint Distribution, Banner of Strength + Discipline, Empower Allies, Alacrity. 5 Boons (Quickness, Fury, Might, Regen, Swiftness)
• We use Alacrity because you can keep it up permanently with double Chronomancers.
• Tests were done on a small 4 million HP golem. Some Large, most small hitboxes.
• Every benchmark has been done with 18 +5stat infusions. (about 2% dps increase)
• Condition builds used Pinpoint Distribution. (roughly about 3% – 3.5% dps increase depending on class [for example almost no gain on condi Mesmer)
• Benchmarks are done under the assumption of a 5-5 mirror comp. Other comps are also viable.
• No Night Sigils or Scribe utility foods were used.
• These numbers are the numbers done in a vacuum under almost optimal conditions. Some builds, which are weak on the golem, will be the strongest on certain encounters.
• The numbers for small hitboxes will work as good or even better on big hitboxes.
• Don’t be a class nazi. Every class can do the job if played correctly. You don’t need the highest possible damage to kill a boss.

Maybe they could do more to combat the "gospel" attitude players have taken around their builds, perhaps by posting less optimal DPS builds for some professions, alternative support builds, or tank ones as well. This is mostly a community problem and not their problem. They're a guild built around pushing the most optimal runs, and should not be responsible for players taking that information and using it to discriminate against certain professions viable for different slots.

@SirMoogie.9263 said:

Maybe they could do more to combat the "gospel" attitude players have taken around their builds, perhaps by posting less optimal DPS builds for some professions, alternative support builds, or tank ones as well. This is mostly a community problem and not their problem. They're a guild built around pushing the most optimal runs, and should not be responsible for players taking that information and using it to discriminate against certain professions viable for different slots.

qT never claimed to be the sole source of builds, testing or even good strats. They do what they do for the purposes of how they play. That the community "misuses" their information in your opinion doesn't mean they have a responsibility to do more. How the community uses that information outside the specific conditions it was communicated for is a symptom of how people play mmo's today, and gaming in general. You can fight the battle you are asking them to fight for you, or you can accept that this is the way the meta will work, because it is the way the meta has worked in this game since 2012.

@Hockmed.9417 said:

@SirMoogie.9263 said:

Maybe they could do more to combat the "gospel" attitude players have taken around their builds, perhaps by posting less optimal DPS builds for some professions, alternative support builds, or tank ones as well. This is mostly a community problem and not their problem. They're a guild built around pushing the most optimal runs, and should not be responsible for players taking that information and using it to discriminate against certain professions viable for different slots.

Read the paragraph you quoted again. @"SirMoogie.9263" mentions that possibility of qt posting other builds as a hypothetical that wouldn't affect the outcome, not as a suggestion. Moogie goes on to make the same point that you did: it's a community problem, not something that qt is responsible for.

In effect, blaming qt is like people blaming Consumer Reports that CR's list of the most reliable washing machine doesn't include their favorite brand, which has been 100% reliable for their family. qt publishes facts about which builds do the highest theoretical DPS, including details on how to get that. They do not advocate using those builds unless you are in a group that knows how to make use of them. They take pains to point out that the primary requirement to beating raids is learning the mechanics (and being able to execute on that knowledge).

The fact that we (as a community) translate "theoretical best" into "best in all circumstances" is our problem, not theirs for publishing facts.

Yeah, qT just goes out of their way to test which is always good. They're very transparent in how they test and do it for free which is really appreciated.If you don't like them it's not like there are not other options too. Snow Crows also has a lot of raid builds (some even more realistic/obtainable than qT!) too for example (and tbh their website is pretty slick)

https://snowcrows.com/raids/

Anyway, on topic. I find it quite funny how necros were screaming about how necro would be non-viable pre POF release and now they're top tier/best class in every game mode in the game right now. Poor Reaper, pretty much relegated to open world.. and it's almost worse at that too!

qT's scourge build is really debatable. qT's build needs to have all 3 shades out just to duration cap bleeding, and it straight up can't duration cap Burning and Torment. That's hardly optimal.

@Crinn.7864 said:qT's scourge build is really debatable. qT's build needs to have all 3 shades out just to duration cap bleeding, and it straight up can't duration cap Burning and Torment. That's hardly optimal.

They gave a response that Trapper/Nightmare, Berserker, and Renegade Runes were all close, but Renegade came out on top.

I hope they update the benchmark for fb soon enough if they get acess to griever's i wonna kow whats the optimal build to go for.

@zealex.9410 said:I hope they update the benchmark for fb soon enough if they get acess to griever's i wonna kow whats the optimal build to go for.

It's going to be close either way. You can go with Griever, Viper or Sinister, and the results won't be very different. My money's on Griever coming out on top, especially if you use Scepter.

Deadeye doesn't have enough DPS to compete for a DPS spot.........

A somewhere under 1K dps of Power Staff, with a much easier rotation, and with ALL of the utilities that a Deadeye can provide without donating their entire trait tree for DPS? Yeaaaah... qT can burn in hell with their speedrun meta.

Then just go and play your Deadeye. qT are doing this community a great service with all their testing and guides. It's not their fault if parts of this community are too dumb to treat their meta for what it is, a speedrun thing that does not necessarily capture the situation of a normal raid group.

@Zenith.7301 said:

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:Deadeye doesn't have enough DPS to compete for a DPS spot.........

A somewhere under 1K dps of Power Staff, with a much easier rotation, and with ALL of the utilities that a Deadeye can provide without donating their entire trait tree for DPS? Yeaaaah... qT can burn in hell with their speedrun meta.

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Zenith.7301 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:You see, my position is I have no desire to prove anything. This is a game. I know how to play and I play using meta builds and rotations. But I am not judging anyone with dps meter and I am against being judged without my consent.

Also, I see no reason to play with you. You like dps meters, tryharding etc, so play with people like you. But I want to have this choice to. To decide whether I want to use this tool and share my numbers or not. Currently, I don't have this choice because it's on you to spy on my numbers.

The mobility is a none issue for most boss battles. Cairn is the only one where it is a problem, even then you can get by without it. Cleave is also hardly a problem as the few instances when you DO need to cleave are just special cases. Most of the time it is just focusing one target for Raids.

In Fractals, cleave is definitely nice. But DE provides a massive amount of might in a very short time in two locations. And no, this is not speculation, I've tried this with Guild Claims, and T4 fractals. It works. If you concider that in fractals there's very rarely going to be anyone who will actually dump a load of boons for you (as is normally the case for me), a deadeye provides a net gain in DPS via the max stacks of might he can provide on such short notice to ranged and melee players (+750 power + 750 Condi). For melee, you can use Shadow Flare and S/D or S/P to cover close range cleave.

Or you can use Rifle's 2 at range, or use Superior Rune of Flames for some AOE damage ontop of your single target on rifle.

@Exqq.7451 said:qT and everyone worshiping them is so bad for the community. So much bias as well as situations of poor testing (they tested Firebrand using Viper and not Grieving because they do not have gear to test Grieving as per their Reddit posting). On top of that they lead people to believe, for example Necromancer, that classes only have 1 viable build where there may be other options. Yet post builds for Thiefs and Ele that are around 27k. Some classes they post 4-5 or even 6 builds. Then leave certain classes with only one build? Then everyone takes it as gospel.

Using again Necromancer as an example. Condi obviously superior, but there are benchmarks being done in the 31-34k range for Power Scourge (which is above still a few of the "dps" builds posted) but it is not even mentioned so you try to play anything but "META" even thought I would say looking at the number it is still fairly "META" but now the community will blindly follow whatever is listed.

Also, we now have definitive proof that Scourge Shrouds are bugged contrary to what most of the Necro community is saying. I live my life by one simple truth; if Necro has good benchmarks its a bug not a feature.

They site and build descriptions always have the optimal damage build, plus the trait/weapon/skill variants and what fights they excel on. Scourge is new. Things like guides and testing takes more time. Plus scourge is just a less flexible class than Elementalists and Rangers Mesmers.

I"m not looking forward to explaining why I'm not running the weaver in fractals from now on. I've spent a few days on it, and not once have I been able to pull off the perfect DPS rotation in a real scenario. The spec is inflexible, has poor support, and has no defenses. But once people see that 48k number, their brains turn off.

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:Deadeye doesn't have enough DPS to compete for a DPS spot.........

A somewhere under 1K dps of Power Staff, with a much easier rotation, and with ALL of the utilities that a Deadeye can provide without donating their entire trait tree for DPS? Yeaaaah... qT can burn in hell with their speedrun meta.

See, this is why DPS meters are a good thing, you can actually prove your worth.

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:I"m not looking forward to explaining why I'm not running the weaver in fractals from now on. I've spent a few days on it, and not once have I been able to pull off the perfect DPS rotation in a real scenario. The spec is inflexible, has poor support, and has no defenses. But once people see that 48k number, their brains turn off.

Indeed.

(For the record, I'm sticking with Weaver, because it's good practice. But it's an awful lot harder than Tempest).

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:I"m not looking forward to explaining why I'm not running the weaver in fractals from now on. I've spent a few days on it, and not once have I been able to pull off the perfect DPS rotation in a real scenario. The spec is inflexible, has poor support, and has no defenses. But once people see that 48k number, their brains turn off.

As you said, some people just read those 48k and their brain turns off. I had a first-hand experience of that in my guild's raid yesterday. Four weavers - the two of them who are good players anyway had a decent performance (though I'm pretty sure they would reach the same or higher numbers on other classes), but the two who are rather poor players produced devastating numbers. Battling my cPS at KC and being considerably lower at most other bosses is rather telling.

That's why I really like dps meters, btw. You directly see the difference between golem theory and raid practice.

@Exqq.7451 said:Yet post builds for Thiefs and Ele that are around 27k.This is just straightforward ignorance. 27k condi dd solo, is just for players attempting to perfect their rotation. Thief has an ability called venom share, where it applies stacks of venom to itself and its allies. This ability drastically increases its condi damage from 27k to 34k (note, this still isn't realistic, as fire bolts from combo fields is very relevant to condi thief). In a real raid scenario, there are team mates to share your venoms to. But testing on a golem, it is more difficult to get a bunch of allies to stand around your golem for your venoms to share to. QT tests it by having a bunch of mesmer clones attacking the golem. But not everyone has a pocket mesmer to help them perfect rotations on the golem. So, qt did the exact same build/rotation but without any allies to share venoms to, so that regular players could more easily compare their rotations.

So that 27k thief build you criticize is actually the highest single target dps build in the game. Directly from qt's post"However Condi DD remains untouched, so it maintains its top position on the few bosses where it can be fully utilised."