Condi mirage . — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Condi mirage .

PierPiero.9142PierPiero.9142 Member ✭✭

I am back since long time. I read that condi mirage is till op after all the nerfs . Is it true or it is only a legend for people who is not able to fight it ? How is this "broken" condi mirage build ? ( i'd like to try it )

<1

Comments

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 14, 2019
  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It is strong, but not OP. Apart from the "annoying" factor, I think it's fine.

  • Is it not better the usual hybrid (carrion or whatever ) axe torch, staff with illusion instead of chaos ?

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Megametzler.5729 said:
    It is strong, but not OP. Apart from the "annoying" factor, I think it's fine.

    Just remove immob from CI and it wouldnt be that annoying. I would also shave mantra daze to 1s probably :)

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭

    The artificial lag build, you are not lagging but you feel like it. I expect more people to drop pvp after it gets more popular.

  • Crius.5487Crius.5487 Member ✭✭✭

    I run this with vipers and can 1v1 gyro scrappers. Bait out their defensive bubble and purge gyro then burst.

  • Vieux P.1238Vieux P.1238 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Wasn't there a post posted about Power chrono/mirage being OP a few weeks ago? Now it's condi again???? !!!! ????

    Winter Nerf is coming!

  • @Vieux P.1238 said:
    Wasn't there a post posted about Power chrono/mirage being OP a few weeks ago? Now it's condi again???? !!!! ????

    No i only asked becouse i had not the feeling that mesmer was so overtuned now .

  • Vieux P.1238Vieux P.1238 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @PierPiero.9142 said:

    @Vieux P.1238 said:
    Wasn't there a post posted about Power chrono/mirage being OP a few weeks ago? Now it's condi again???? !!!! ????

    No i only asked becouse i had not the feeling that mesmer was so overtuned now .

    Overtuned? How can it be overtuned when it been the sole subject to be continuously nerfed in the past last year?

    Winter Nerf is coming!

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 16, 2019

    Condi mirage currently isn't broken OP like it used to be, but it is ( as it always has been ) very poorly designed for PvP in that most of its strengths come from uninteractive mechanics IE the ability to constantly chain invulns, unavoidable passives, and get out of jail free cards. Honestly they should have reworked Mirage into something less cancerous instead of reworking Chrono. Power Chrono was FINE and chronoburst was actually fun no idea why Anet is gutting the spec.

  • DoomNexus.5324DoomNexus.5324 Member ✭✭✭

    It's like with everything that involves conditions. If you run it against classes with poor condi cleanse (say Rev) it's completely and utterly busted while you do basically nothing to something like Firebrand.

  • Vieux P.1238Vieux P.1238 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DoomNexus.5324 said:
    It's like with everything that involves conditions. If you run it against classes with poor condi cleanse (say Rev) it's completely and utterly busted while you do basically nothing to something like Firebrand.

    I got hit 192 tics before i died & saw that i got burned for 117k burn damage from FB. Hahaha condi MEZ pffff... LOL

    Winter Nerf is coming!

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 16, 2019

    The problem isn't Chaotic Interruption, that has been the same since trait rework and used to 2s immob since well before then (2013) though it didn't give any boons.

    Source: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chaotic_Interruption

    So why is CI complained about now? A few reasons.

    1. There's more CC for the mesmer since specialisations.
    Mantra of distraction cool down has gone from 30s > 20s > 12s > 12s + Recharge Diversion by 15s when you charge it. Power Lock 1s daze > 1.5s since Apr 2019.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mantra_of_Distraction

    Diversion is not changed but is worth mentioning, the cool down Base + CDR trait is 38s (32.3s) which becomes 23s (17.3s) after the cast of the mantra.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Diversion

    Descent into Madness now gives a "lesser" chaos storm when you use a heal, this was added in PoF and has contributed to the CC spam.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Descent_into_Madness

    Phantasmal Mage now dazes/interrupts targets, it's a wind up and high cast but it is more CC even if it is to complete the theme of having a CC on all weapon sets.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phantasmal_Mage

    Mirage Thrust again is added for completeness more than anything, with Infinite Horizon you can spam interrupts fairly hard but it's not used at the moment due to being a power weapon.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirage_Thrust

    2. There's less trade offs now especially with elite specs
    So way back when we had points to put into traits taking a chaos grandmaster meant either giving up Illusionary Persona or giving up damage. Specialisations came and now you could pick it and 2 other trait lines like Domination and Duelling without having to sacrifice the damage, this is where it started but Chaotic Interruption wasn't run by most because getting an interrupt wasn't easy, most skills/builds used 1/2s or less cast times with a few exceptions like necro and as shown above wasting CC was met with high cool downs with most mesmer builds only really using 3 CCs and no way you'd give up portal for mantra.

    Then, everything changed when the Fire Nation attackedThen everything changed when elite specs came. They had no trade offs and still many don't while dialling up the power level of classes significantly and adding more tools at the classes disposal. This is also when the cool down on mantra of distraction got reduced

    Chronomancer gained continuum split that allowed them to double up on anything they used including CC, they also gained tides of time which was up to 2 stuns close together and gravity well which was 3 CCs though with a 1s cast. However as mentioned you could use continuum split to use both these + diversion and you would get them back again as well as chaos storm if you wanted. It in many ways diminished balancing around cool down as it could always double up on those abilities while the core class couldn't.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chronomancer

    Mirage gained mirage cloak which allows them a few things in relation to the current meta build. Firstly they can cover the cast time of the mantra, magic bullet, chaos storm, whatever with dodge which removes some of the counterplay of there being a cast time. Secondly they gain access to ambush skills that allow them to put more conditions on their target than they could in certainly core but also in HoT and unlike the old condi chrono build they're burns and bleeds so being locked in place and not spamming skills won't help you. With infinite horizon your clones will do ambush skills too and if you trait duelling you get plenty of bleeds on you especially with sceptre.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirage

    3. The game has been so dumbed down the playerbase spams skills
    A lot of people will likely disagree with this but it's true. The cool downs on skills all across the game have gone down so everyone is using something all the time, just look at this last patch, from what I can see there were only 5 cool down increases this patch with at least one of them being a reduction under certain conditions and most were not by a lot. Look at your average holo game play, they spam skills left right and centre, even classes like warrior that don't need to spam tend to spam until you get to the really upper level of play. This makes getting an interrupt very easy, if someone is using an ability most of the time, even if the cast times are low at 1/2s you can spam your CC (because low CD) and you're likely to hit them + because you have clones and infinite horizon they eat 3 ambush skills and have burning, torment, bleed, immobilise, chill and whatever might have been added by someone else.

    To add to this, interrupt builds have been pretty much not competitive or even used by most people for so long very few people have even played against one let alone know how to fight it. Compounding this is the prevalence of the power meta, look at every meta build currently used, most take few to no cleanses, to put it bluntly the benefits of taking cleanses and traits to deal with the conditions put out isn't worth the risk of being more susceptible to being burst down by all the damage coming out. To add to this people are running base health especially on the classes that are complaining because they have demolishers amulet instead of marauder so you lose out on the additional health buffer you would normally use to help against condition builds.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates

    Fixes
    Interrupting is meant to be skilful and should be rewarded, certainly more than for simply pressing a button or worse passively activated like on many classes.
    If you add an ICD on the trait it reduces the reliability of it and reduces the benefits for using the trait properly, interrupting key casts, setting up the enemy for more damage via the immob and punishing skill spam.

    Removing the immobilise would make the trait kind of bad, you'd still get the might for 5s and another random short duration boon but it's not going to make it any more fun to fight. Here is why, you will still be CC chained till you're dead from ambush skills or from other players, sure you'll be able to stun break, move and dodge spam to cover but it's not going to remedy the CC spam which will be as bad.

    So what can be done?
    Here's an idea, lets remove the diversion recharge from mantra of distraction, yeah it's nice and I like the benefit but it's too much.
    How's about reducing the daze duration of the mantra from 1.5s to 1/2s so it's for interrupting only and up the cool down back to 20s.
    Remove "Lesser" Chaos Storm on heal, it's an AoE RNG dazefest, it's not fun to have 2 of these on a build, replace it with null field.
    Rework Mirage - Mirage gives too much, less than some elite specs but it's still basically an upgrade to core. It's been a problem for a long time and the ambush skills aren't being fixed especially when they're stacking a strong condition like torment. They should stack bleeds and maybe a little burn but there needs to be trade offs.
    Mirage cloak removes the counterplay of having a cast time so you can't interrupt some of these casts (yes interrupting an interrupt build was a thing). This should probably not stay in the game as allowing casts while dodging.
    Sceptre - Illusionary Counter stacks 5 torment AND 2 CLONES all on a single skill. I feel this is way too overtuned, the torment I think certainly needs reducing in stacks if not changing to another condition entirely and reduce clone count to 1, maybe even 0 given the clone generation of the auto but see how 1 goes.

    "Yeah but these are lots of changes let's just change CI and everything will be fine" No it won't, pay attention pls.
    Ambush skills are always going to be an issue while they stack torment so much and have no real investment needed. (looking at you too holo)
    CC chaining is as unfun as being immobilised and mesmer has way more CC on this build than anyone wants to ever deal with.
    Mirage isn't a fun spec, I don't hear many people actually enjoying it and if you looked in the mesmer forums you'd have seen scathing reviews of it being an RP spec.
    You've all heard the meme of "mesmer will just move onto the next broken thing" and the reason for that is because people complain about the wrong aspects. You look at something that requires skill (interrupting) for a nerf without thinking of what is enabling a trait that does require skill to no longer need skill. It's not exclusive to mesmer but mesmer is one of the biggest sufferers of this paradigm.

    Edit: Feel free to use this post and it's contents if you think it has merit, you may link or literally copy + paste large amounts as you want in good faith. I will not be responding past this edit.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:
    The problem isn't Chaotic Interruption, that has been the same since trait rework and used to 2s immob since well before then (2013) though it didn't give any boons.

    Source: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chaotic_Interruption

    So why is CI complained about now? A few reasons.

    1. There's more CC for the mesmer since specialisations.
    Mantra of distraction cool down has gone from 30s > 20s > 12s > 12s + Recharge Diversion by 15s when you charge it. Power Lock 1s daze > 1.5s since Apr 2019.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mantra_of_Distraction

    Diversion is not changed but is worth mentioning, the cool down Base + CDR trait is 38s (32.3s) which becomes 23s (17.3s) after the cast of the mantra.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Diversion

    Descent into Madness now gives a "lesser" chaos storm when you use a heal, this was added in PoF and has contributed to the CC spam.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Descent_into_Madness

    Phantasmal Mage now dazes/interrupts targets, it's a wind up and high cast but it is more CC even if it is to complete the theme of having a CC on all weapon sets.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phantasmal_Mage

    Mirage Thrust again is added for completeness more than anything, with Infinite Horizon you can spam interrupts fairly hard but it's not used at the moment due to being a power weapon.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirage_Thrust

    2. There's less trade offs now especially with elite specs
    So way back when we had points to put into traits taking a chaos grandmaster meant either giving up Illusionary Persona or giving up damage. Specialisations came and now you could pick it and 2 other trait lines like Domination and Duelling without having to sacrifice the damage, this is where it started but Chaotic Interruption wasn't run by most because getting an interrupt wasn't easy, most skills/builds used 1/2s or less cast times with a few exceptions like necro and as shown above wasting CC was met with high cool downs with most mesmer builds only really using 3 CCs and no way you'd give up portal for mantra.

    Then, everything changed when the Fire Nation attackedThen everything changed when elite specs came. They had no trade offs and still many don't while dialling up the power level of classes significantly and adding more tools at the classes disposal. This is also when the cool down on mantra of distraction got reduced

    Chronomancer gained continuum split that allowed them to double up on anything they used including CC, they also gained tides of time which was up to 2 stuns close together and gravity well which was 3 CCs though with a 1s cast. However as mentioned you could use continuum split to use both these + diversion and you would get them back again as well as chaos storm if you wanted. It in many ways diminished balancing around cool down as it could always double up on those abilities while the core class couldn't.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chronomancer

    Mirage gained mirage cloak which allows them a few things in relation to the current meta build. Firstly they can cover the cast time of the mantra, magic bullet, chaos storm, whatever with dodge which removes some of the counterplay of there being a cast time. Secondly they gain access to ambush skills that allow them to put more conditions on their target than they could in certainly core but also in HoT and unlike the old condi chrono build they're burns and bleeds so being locked in place and not spamming skills won't help you. With infinite horizon your clones will do ambush skills too and if you trait duelling you get plenty of bleeds on you especially with sceptre.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirage

    3. The game has been so dumbed down the playerbase spams skills
    A lot of people will likely disagree with this but it's true. The cool downs on skills all across the game have gone down so everyone is using something all the time, just look at this last patch, from what I can see there were only 5 cool down increases this patch with at least one of them being a reduction under certain conditions and most were not by a lot. Look at your average holo game play, they spam skills left right and centre, even classes like warrior that don't need to spam tend to spam until you get to the really upper level of play. This makes getting an interrupt very easy, if someone is using an ability most of the time, even if the cast times are low at 1/2s you can spam your CC (because low CD) and you're likely to hit them + because you have clones and infinite horizon they eat 3 ambush skills and have burning, torment, bleed, immobilise, chill and whatever might have been added by someone else.

    To add to this, interrupt builds have been pretty much not competitive or even used by most people for so long very few people have even played against one let alone know how to fight it. Compounding this is the prevalence of the power meta, look at every meta build currently used, most take few to no cleanses, to put it bluntly the benefits of taking cleanses and traits to deal with the conditions put out isn't worth the risk of being more susceptible to being burst down by all the damage coming out. To add to this people are running base health especially on the classes that are complaining because they have demolishers amulet instead of marauder so you lose out on the additional health buffer you would normally use to help against condition builds.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates

    Fixes
    Interrupting is meant to be skilful and should be rewarded, certainly more than for simply pressing a button or worse passively activated like on many classes.
    If you add an ICD on the trait it reduces the reliability of it and reduces the benefits for using the trait properly, interrupting key casts, setting up the enemy for more damage via the immob and punishing skill spam.

    Removing the immobilise would make the trait kind of bad, you'd still get the might for 5s and another random short duration boon but it's not going to make it any more fun to fight. Here is why, you will still be CC chained till you're dead from ambush skills or from other players, sure you'll be able to stun break, move and dodge spam to cover but it's not going to remedy the CC spam which will be as bad.

    So what can be done?
    Here's an idea, lets remove the diversion recharge from mantra of distraction, yeah it's nice and I like the benefit but it's too much.
    How's about reducing the daze duration of the mantra from 1.5s to 1/2s so it's for interrupting only and up the cool down back to 20s.
    Remove "Lesser" Chaos Storm on heal, it's an AoE RNG dazefest, it's not fun to have 2 of these on a build, replace it with null field.
    Rework Mirage - Mirage gives too much, less than some elite specs but it's still basically an upgrade to core. It's been a problem for a long time and the ambush skills aren't being fixed especially when they're stacking a strong condition like torment. They should stack bleeds and maybe a little burn but there needs to be trade offs.
    Mirage cloak removes the counterplay of having a cast time so you can't interrupt some of these casts (yes interrupting an interrupt build was a thing). This should probably not stay in the game as allowing casts while dodging.
    Sceptre - Illusionary Counter stacks 5 torment AND 2 CLONES all on a single skill. I feel this is way too overtuned, the torment I think certainly needs reducing in stacks if not changing to another condition entirely and reduce clone count to 1, maybe even 0 given the clone generation of the auto but see how 1 goes.

    "Yeah but these are lots of changes let's just change CI and everything will be fine" No it won't, pay attention pls.
    Ambush skills are always going to be an issue while they stack torment so much and have no real investment needed. (looking at you too holo)
    CC chaining is as unfun as being immobilised and mesmer has way more CC on this build than anyone wants to ever deal with.
    Mirage isn't a fun spec, I don't hear many people actually enjoying it and if you looked in the mesmer forums you'd have seen scathing reviews of it being an RP spec.
    You've all heard the meme of "mesmer will just move onto the next broken thing" and the reason for that is because people complain about the wrong aspects. You look at something that requires skill (interrupting) for a nerf without thinking of what is enabling a trait that does require skill to no longer need skill. It's not exclusive to mesmer but mesmer is one of the biggest sufferers of this paradigm.

    Edit: Feel free to use this post and it's contents if you think it has merit, you may link or literally copy + paste large amounts as you want in good faith. I will not be responding past this edit.

    so being able to use dodge when channeling on mirage is too good now? 99% of the time its a waste of a dodge, cant ambush when channeling so thats lost. and most channels are bad anyways ( entire scepter 3 is usually worse then 1 ambush while having 1 and a half year cast time )
    scept 2 is REALLY strong, but guess what, every class has that 1 good ability somewhere, scepter 3 and scepter 1 are bad and they are offset by good 2 + its a rebuke kinda of ability, if you are running/stunned/focusing someone else mesmer wont be able to hit you with it, its pure dueling ability.
    actually they only good thing about scept 3 is that it doesnt get reflected, and you can use it on someone that you think will stealth to continue hitting them, its better to autoattack. the only good channel for dodge i can think off is axe 2, to bait hard hitters, use dodge at the end and then ambush after.

  • Vieux P.1238Vieux P.1238 Member ✭✭✭✭

    wow this post is so long i got discouraged right after reading (The problem isn't Chaotic Interruption,)

    Winter Nerf is coming!

  • This has been broken since the dawn of time. Make it so their skills only do 1 thing instead of 10 things. Confuse stat just needs to take a holiday. does any one who handles these patches actually que in pvp? condi mirage is a nightmare. For the love of Tyria, fix it.

  • everyman.4375everyman.4375 Member ✭✭✭

    Or maybe just take condi clear ?

  • yusayu.3629yusayu.3629 Member ✭✭✭

    Riiight, nerf Mesmer more because you can't be bothered to learn to play against it.

  • LegendaVagyok.9132LegendaVagyok.9132 Member ✭✭
    edited July 17, 2019

    @yusayu.3629 said:
    Riiight, nerf Mesmer more because you can't be bothered to learn to play against it.

    Exaclty, thank you. Are you unhappy about Mesmer go and try it out, you will be fine since it’s OP and braindead, oh wait... no I guess you will be smashed in 2s.

    Learn to play is the hard (sometimes salty) way but definitely rewarding. Mesmers in general are now in a good place, due the recent nerfs (4-5 in row), is it annoying to play against one? Yes, is it OP though? I don’t think so, there are only a few capable Mesmers who could give you a hard time, however it’s not about the class it’s the skill gap. Literally every class has now tons of condi cleanse, and you know [ kite] makes it right :)

    No more nerf needed maybe some adjustments, or trade off. Smashing buttons and not knowing your opponent’s skills is like playing blindfolded - crying on forum for Mesmer now is just meh. Why?

  • Mbelch.9028Mbelch.9028 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dreddo.9865 said:
    This build is actually fine. As one mirage wrote here "just don't press any skills when you get immobed". So take your 25 stacks of bleed, some torment too and enjoy watching your character melting to death. ^^

    This. Lol

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2019

    @Ziggityzog.7389 said:
    They will never fix the issue with the no skill carry build. Conditions flow out of the butts of mirages as they dodge all damage for ages. All is fine here.

    As compared to scourge, since you have necro avatar? Scourge is far more oppressive compared to mesmer by a mile. Mesmer is only better solo and only against builds without strong condi clear and stability. Your inability to deal with illusions is a skill problem not a game flow.

    I also want to comment on this: > @Dreddo.9865 said:

    This build is actually fine. As one mirage wrote here "just don't press any skills when you get immobed". So take your 25 stacks of bleed, some torment too and enjoy watching your character melting to death. ^^

    If there is anything that separate between people in P1 and above and everyone else, it is specifically this. People play PvE thinking they will come in and do a PvE rotation. Then get upset if a skilled enemy interrupts them. Using skills at the right time in the right situation is everything.

  • Ziggityzog.7389Ziggityzog.7389 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2019

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Ziggityzog.7389 said:
    They will never fix the issue with the no skill carry build. Conditions flow out of the butts of mirages as they dodge all damage for ages. All is fine here.

    As compared to scourge, since you have necro avatar? Scourge is far more oppressive compared to mesmer by a mile. Mesmer is only better solo and only against builds without strong condi clear and stability. Your inability to deal with illusions is a skill problem not a game flow.

    I play reaper. I'm not into skill less spam builds that have never ending conditions which should be "damage over time" not damage and death in 5 seconds..

    Sure it's a "l2p" thing and I just play pvp almost everyday, been here since launch of gw2, and have been legendary rank before. But sure lol

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ziggityzog.7389 said:

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Ziggityzog.7389 said:
    They will never fix the issue with the no skill carry build. Conditions flow out of the butts of mirages as they dodge all damage for ages. All is fine here.

    As compared to scourge, since you have necro avatar? Scourge is far more oppressive compared to mesmer by a mile. Mesmer is only better solo and only against builds without strong condi clear and stability. Your inability to deal with illusions is a skill problem not a game flow.

    I play reaper. I'm not into skill less spam builds that have never ending conditions which should be "damage over time" not damage and death in 5 seconds..

    Sure it's a "l2p" thing and I just play pvp almost everyday, been here since launch of gw2, and have been legendary rank before. But sure lol

    To be fair, mirage always had an edge against necro. And reaper in particular is very susceptible to condi damage. But the mirage CI build does not deal that much damage. If you avoid the chaos storms, the mirage is going to have problems for the remainder of the fight against competent opponents.

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I used to have issues with them. I literally asked to spar with a couple, became friends with 1 and learned how to beat them. I got gud by learn to adapt to overcome. I could have either QQ/cried about it on the forums, or...until something happened to them....adapted to become a better fighter. Less QQ, less stress and more laughs as my k/d vs them improved to the point where statistically, fighting was in my favor.

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
    twitch.tv/TRMC
    Lover of Jumping puzzles, Squirrels, WvW, and Taimi
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  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 21, 2019

    @Hex.8714 said:
    bump bump b

    That's not a very constructive comment is it? Why do you think mirage needs nerfs?

    @dagger dave.5201 said:
    and the daze mantra is only countered with stab which most classes lack.

    Classes with access to stab in viable builds: Ranger, warrior, engineer, scourge, firebrand, weaver
    Classes w/o access to stab:
    Thief (hard counters mesmers anyway), mesmer (CI competes with stab trait), rev (does shiro evade remove immob?)

    Only 3 classes lack stab, what are you saying?

  • Hex.8714Hex.8714 Member ✭✭

    condi mirage has too much damage and too much sustain

  • BadMed.3846BadMed.3846 Member ✭✭✭

    Condi mirage is utterly broken and ridiculously OP. Stop defending it in the name of previous nerfs. They were just not enough and a lot needs to be done to tone down this cheese spec that requires no skill and just macro spams.

  • dagger dave.5201dagger dave.5201 Member ✭✭✭

    Classes with access to stab in viable builds: Ranger, warrior, engineer, scourge, firebrand, weaver
    Classes w/o access to stab:
    Thief (hard counters mesmers anyway), mesmer (CI competes with stab trait), rev (does shiro evade remove immob?)

    Only 3 classes lack stab, what are you saying?

    The amount of stab is ripped from any class with the sheer amount of spammable daze mesmer has, 2x chaos field, daze mantra, pistol 5, diversion.

    And of course arcane thievery which any semi competent mesmer will use after stability is applied.

    Scourge stabi is pointless as its 1 stack, firebrand needs to access tomes so it can't pressure the mesmer, so again doesn't really help. Engi needs to hit a target so can easily be dodged. Warrior gets it from full counter which lasts 2 seconds. Ranger gets a lot of stabi surr and I don't play weaver so Idk.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2019

    @dagger dave.5201 said:
    The amount of stab is ripped from any class with the sheer amount of spammable daze mesmer has, 2x chaos field, daze mantra, pistol 5, diversion.
    And of course arcane thievery which any semi competent mesmer will use after stability is applied.

    If you have 2 daze field that means you don't run manipulation trait. Arcane Thievery is 25 second cooldown and you need to have LoS.
    By the way, aegis also counters instant casts.

    Scourge stabi is pointless as its 1 stack,

    Mesmer counters necro on 1v1 anyway.
    Edit: Mirage can't go out of aoes while dodging because dodge is stationary, heh.

    firebrand needs to access tomes so it can't pressure the mesmer, so again doesn't really help.

    FB can't pressure anybody, a fb's least concern is mirage.
    Edit: It can also give stab and aegis to teammates, essentially countering CI.

    Engi needs to hit a target so can easily be dodged.

    Corona Burst is 6 sec cd and can hit clones all the time while thievery has 25 second cooldown. Don't forget Elixir U and Elixir X.

    Warrior gets it from full counter which lasts 2 seconds.

    Warrior can remove immob with any leap or rush. Don't forget rampage.

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I used to run a condi mirage (its what got me into mirage...Axe+ torch and Scepter+torch) and I could 2v1, 3v1 for days (brought it to WvW and it was gross). When they initially nerfed the condi mirage a while back, I stopped playing it, got accustomed to a DPS build I made and played that ever since. When Condi mirage made a comeback, I didn't want to go back as it was OP for the little skill that was required (I could still beat them however as I knew most rotations so knew what to look for).

    I still believe they need to be toned down. Glad they were nerfed at one poitn tho...I love my lil Cotton Candy Cutie as a DPS Mirage.

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
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    Lover of Jumping puzzles, Squirrels, WvW, and Taimi
    Co-Leader of SOmething inAPpropriate {SOAP}

  • Vicariuz.1605Vicariuz.1605 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2019

    @BadMed.3846 said:
    Condi mirage is utterly broken and ridiculously OP. Stop defending it in the name of previous nerfs. They were just not enough and a lot needs to be done to tone down this cheese spec that requires no skill and just macro spams.

    In what world would a CI mirage ever need a macro?
    Secondly, it's far from "utterly broken or ridiculously OP." Like miles from it.

    Learn not to spam your skill bar at people, use your dodges for a purpose, and clear the bleed stack, that's literally all you have to do to beat them.

  • BadMed.3846BadMed.3846 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vicariuz.1605 said:

    @BadMed.3846 said:
    Condi mirage is utterly broken and ridiculously OP. Stop defending it in the name of previous nerfs. They were just not enough and a lot needs to be done to tone down this cheese spec that requires no skill and just macro spams.

    In what world would a CI mirage ever need a macro?
    Secondly, it's far from "utterly broken or ridiculously OP." Like miles from it.

    Learn not to spam your skill bar at people, use your dodges for a purpose, and clear the bleed stack, that's literally all you have to do to beat them.

    It's beyond a joke and absolutely ridiculously broken. Don't try to justify a broken spec by giving L2P excuses. We've had enough of that. mirage needs some solid nerfs.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2019

    @LegendaVagyok.9132 said:
    Exaclty, thank you. Are you unhappy about Mesmer go and try it out, you will be fine since it’s OP and braindead, oh wait... no I guess you will be smashed in 2s.

    Learn to play is the hard (sometimes salty) way but definitely rewarding. Mesmers in general are now in a good place, due the recent nerfs (4-5 in row), is it annoying to play against one? Yes, is it OP though? I don’t think so, there are only a few capable Mesmers who could give you a hard time, however it’s not about the class it’s the skill gap. Literally every class has now tons of condi cleanse, and you know [ kite] makes it right :)

    No more nerf needed maybe some adjustments, or trade off. Smashing buttons and not knowing your opponent’s skills is like playing blindfolded - crying on forum for Mesmer now is just meh. Why?

    I'm a multiclasser in high plat on NA (r2 and r4). In other words, I play ALL classes at this rating. I can say from personal experience, playing as/with/against mesmers for years, that the amount of effort it takes to be effective on this class is disproportionately low in comparison to the effort it takes to play every other class in the game at the same level.

    I posted this screenshot on one of my threads where I went 26-0 in unranked during my second time playing berserker power mirage. I also play the CI build and the traditional Dueling/Illusions/Mirage condi build in ranked and they also work extremely well.

    There are so many mesmer mains downplaying the strengths of this class. I see them whining on the mesmer forums saying stuff like: we've been nerfed the hardest, can't deal damage, don't have mobility, are worst class in the game etc. etc.

    It's ridiculous. I played these so-called "nerfed and unviable" builds a few days ago on stream and farmed players in ranked going 16-1, 9-1, etc. etc. back to back while winning/kiting outnumbered easily because of how much damage/cc/survivability/mobility/utility mesmers have access to. The only matchups a mesmer could ever lose are against s/d thieves that never miss their steals, other mesmers, and/or holosmiths IF the mesmer plays terribly and stays in melee range on the node. Funnily enough, even if they "lose" the fight, the mesmer can just blink away, escape with stealth, cc any counterpressure or attempt to chase, and block/blind/invuln/distort until their cooldowns come back.

    The class is literally ez-mode and probably the most overpowered and reliable carry in ranked if you want to completely roll over 99% of the players you come across.

    If the links don't work, here they are in order:

    1. https://imgur.com/a/HXmRGKS
    2. https://imgur.com/a/d9vHNHS
    3. https://i.imgur.com/Oo5b1hQ.png?1
    4. https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/82223/wow-this-new-patch-is-it-me-or-all-mesmer-builds-are-right-out-owned-underwhelming
    5. https://clips.twitch.tv/TsundereAbstruseDumplings4Head
  • DigiQWill.6378DigiQWill.6378 Member ✭✭✭

    @BadMed.3846 said:

    @Vicariuz.1605 said:

    @BadMed.3846 said:
    Condi mirage is utterly broken and ridiculously OP. Stop defending it in the name of previous nerfs. They were just not enough and a lot needs to be done to tone down this cheese spec that requires no skill and just macro spams.

    In what world would a CI mirage ever need a macro?
    Secondly, it's far from "utterly broken or ridiculously OP." Like miles from it.

    Learn not to spam your skill bar at people, use your dodges for a purpose, and clear the bleed stack, that's literally all you have to do to beat them.

    It's beyond a joke and absolutely ridiculously broken. Don't try to justify a broken spec by giving L2P excuses. We've had enough of that. mirage needs some solid nerfs.

    Well then, name a nerf that would actually be intelligent, and not just "Nerf it because I want to." For instance, adding an internal cooldown to Chaotic Interruption would do wonders, and removing the Mirage's ability to dodge while hard CCd would balance everything a bit more. Meanwhile, requesting for nerfs on Daze Mantra (which was nerfed so many times I can't even count it) would be outrageous for any non-CI builds, while removing ambush skills would be brain-dead detrimental to the balance. You don't run macros on Mirage - it's one of the most reactive classes in this game, thus macroing would be detrimental to your personal skill cap.

    Your arguments show that you lack knowledge on Mirage, even if you've maybe played it before. Yes, I'm a Mirage main, and I'm super annoyed by CI Condition Interrupt Mirage. As a Power Mirage, I find that its abilities (for power builds) are at least somewhat balanced. Touching CI would be more intelligent than touching how Mirage works, can we agree on that?

    I mean, fundamentally, this Elite Specialization is broken because it can dodge while basically doing anything. They'd need to rework how Mirage works in a whole - and before that, they'd need to rework stuff like Scourge and Holosmith to tune down their respective capabilities. And that's not because I find them very oppressive, I personally have a good time as a Power Mirage fighting either of them. Their skill ceiling access though is too easy, in retrospective to each ladder, and they have currently too much impact in the Meta for them to pass after Mirage. Because let's remember that Mirage isn't seeing much play when you get higher than Gold 3.

  • BadMed.3846BadMed.3846 Member ✭✭✭

    @DigiQWill.6378 said:

    @BadMed.3846 said:

    @Vicariuz.1605 said:

    @BadMed.3846 said:
    Condi mirage is utterly broken and ridiculously OP. Stop defending it in the name of previous nerfs. They were just not enough and a lot needs to be done to tone down this cheese spec that requires no skill and just macro spams.

    In what world would a CI mirage ever need a macro?
    Secondly, it's far from "utterly broken or ridiculously OP." Like miles from it.

    Learn not to spam your skill bar at people, use your dodges for a purpose, and clear the bleed stack, that's literally all you have to do to beat them.

    It's beyond a joke and absolutely ridiculously broken. Don't try to justify a broken spec by giving L2P excuses. We've had enough of that. mirage needs some solid nerfs.

    Well then, name a nerf that would actually be intelligent, and not just "Nerf it because I want to." For instance, adding an internal cooldown to Chaotic Interruption would do wonders, and removing the Mirage's ability to dodge while hard CCd would balance everything a bit more. Meanwhile, requesting for nerfs on Daze Mantra (which was nerfed so many times I can't even count it) would be outrageous for any non-CI builds, while removing ambush skills would be brain-dead detrimental to the balance. You don't run macros on Mirage - it's one of the most reactive classes in this game, thus macroing would be detrimental to your personal skill cap.

    Your arguments show that you lack knowledge on Mirage, even if you've maybe played it before. Yes, I'm a Mirage main, and I'm super annoyed by CI Condition Interrupt Mirage. As a Power Mirage, I find that its abilities (for power builds) are at least somewhat balanced. Touching CI would be more intelligent than touching how Mirage works, can we agree on that?

    I mean, fundamentally, this Elite Specialization is broken because it can dodge while basically doing anything. They'd need to rework how Mirage works in a whole - and before that, they'd need to rework stuff like Scourge and Holosmith to tune down their respective capabilities. And that's not because I find them very oppressive, I personally have a good time as a Power Mirage fighting either of them. Their skill ceiling access though is too easy, in retrospective to each ladder, and they have currently too much impact in the Meta for them to pass after Mirage. Because let's remember that Mirage isn't seeing much play when you get higher than Gold 3.

    Where top 3 on leaderboards have been Mirage recently you still claim that mirage is not getting much use beyond gold 3. Macros or not, even a bronze player can easily climb the ladder with the broken mirage. Holo and scourge and everything else could do with minor nerfs but mirage needs huge nerfs to make it even acceptable.

  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2019

    It's the same kitten it's always been.

    Condi has to much output and what keeps getting nerfed is mesmer's survivability, I've been saying this since season 9.
    Mirage has less on demand defensive cooldowns than 6/8 of the other classes (and their respective viable elite specs), this includes things like blind and aegis. But even though they keep nerfing the survivability that everyone keeps crying about, people are still dying. It's almost like the issue with condi hasn't changed.

    Even back when Mirage had alllll it's defensive options; Power was not overperforming. Gee, I wonder why? Could it be the disparity for how a single burst combo works compared to the more passive nature of condi application, and granting a lot more pressure and damage off of IH?

    All nerfing the survivability did was kill power more and more, while condi always found an easy way to adapt because it maintained it's damage and damage application methods. Not to say it wasn't nerfed at all, but even if you take a stack or two off, it still hits like a truck for something you didn't need to set up or land a complicated/fickle/unintuitive combo for.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭

    @Daishi.6027 said:
    Even back when Mirage had alllll it's defensive options; Power was not overperforming. Gee, I wonder why?

    As far as I remember, mesmer is a hybrid damage profession.

    Anyway, there is an important point here: When mirage had good defense, condi was better than power. Today, condi is still better. That can mean two things:
    1) Condi is op
    2) Power is weak

    However even after axe, illusions line and illusionary ambush got nerfed condi is still the better build. In my honest opinion, we need a big greatsword rework and mh/oh sword buffs.

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @Daishi.6027 said:
    Even back when Mirage had alllll it's defensive options; Power was not overperforming. Gee, I wonder why?

    As far as I remember, mesmer is a hybrid damage profession.

    Anyway, there is an important point here: When mirage had good defense, condi was better than power. Today, condi is still better. That can mean two things:
    1) Condi is op
    2) Power is weak

    However even after axe, illusions line and illusionary ambush got nerfed condi is still the better build. In my honest opinion, we need a big greatsword rework and mh/oh sword buffs.

    I run a non meta DPS build using axe. Personally the nerf to Axe direct DPS and nerf some of the condi application. How often do you hear (compared to other complaints) that Axe direct DPS is OP? lol

    A rework would be interesting imo. No idea if I would like it myself due to certain combos I use with GS and abilities (I dont run 1 shot or any daze abilities), however im not a fan of the 1 shot GS build either....I feel conflicted :p

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
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    Lover of Jumping puzzles, Squirrels, WvW, and Taimi
    Co-Leader of SOmething inAPpropriate {SOAP}

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭

    can anyone count how many toxic and unfun to play builds did mesmer have? specially mirage

    make prepardness baseline plz

  • DeadlySynz.3471DeadlySynz.3471 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lyndina.7984 said:
    Yeah right. Nerf mesmer more. Not like they just patched chrono out of the game. But here come's the next one that wants to nerf the last remain Elitespec. Just take condi remove if you do pvp.

    When I mashed the keyboard on Mirage, a player had both 8 stacks of confusion and 8 stacks of torment on them. To say that is overkill is an understatement. They do too much.. far too much. No other class can pull that off, even the "please continually nerf Scourges into the ground" full on shade bomb can't even dump half that out.

  • Vicariuz.1605Vicariuz.1605 Member ✭✭✭

    @BadMed.3846 said:

    @Vicariuz.1605 said:

    @BadMed.3846 said:
    Condi mirage is utterly broken and ridiculously OP. Stop defending it in the name of previous nerfs. They were just not enough and a lot needs to be done to tone down this cheese spec that requires no skill and just macro spams.

    In what world would a CI mirage ever need a macro?
    Secondly, it's far from "utterly broken or ridiculously OP." Like miles from it.

    Learn not to spam your skill bar at people, use your dodges for a purpose, and clear the bleed stack, that's literally all you have to do to beat them.

    It's beyond a joke and absolutely ridiculously broken. Don't try to justify a broken spec by giving L2P excuses. We've had enough of that. mirage needs some solid nerfs.

    Fine, your choice to continue to cry instead of actually getting better at the game. While you are at it, continue to ignore the question I asked about "macro using CI mes."

    OMEGALUL

  • Heartpains.7312Heartpains.7312 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    As far as I remember, mesmer is a hybrid damage profession.

    Anyway, there is an important point here: When mirage had good defense, condi was better than power. Today, condi is still better. That can mean two things:
    1) Condi is op
    2) Power is weak

    However even after axe, illusions line and illusionary ambush got nerfed condi is still the better build. In my honest opinion, we need a big greatsword rework and mh/oh sword buffs.

    Regarding swords, they are the ones who kept nerfing and nerfing and nerfing it, actually I made a post about killed traits and skills (maybe weapons should be added), they need to start working on dead/killed traits and skills for all classes, also their balance patches are SLOW, so slow.

    By the way, sometimes issues appear because of the stats that they add, talking about wvw mainly, things like trailblaizer, viper, greiving, there was once stats that were added that looked like a joke and they were joke, I think the removed that stats now xD

  • BadMed.3846BadMed.3846 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vicariuz.1605 said:

    @BadMed.3846 said:

    @Vicariuz.1605 said:

    @BadMed.3846 said:
    Condi mirage is utterly broken and ridiculously OP. Stop defending it in the name of previous nerfs. They were just not enough and a lot needs to be done to tone down this cheese spec that requires no skill and just macro spams.

    In what world would a CI mirage ever need a macro?
    Secondly, it's far from "utterly broken or ridiculously OP." Like miles from it.

    Learn not to spam your skill bar at people, use your dodges for a purpose, and clear the bleed stack, that's literally all you have to do to beat them.

    It's beyond a joke and absolutely ridiculously broken. Don't try to justify a broken spec by giving L2P excuses. We've had enough of that. mirage needs some solid nerfs.

    Fine, your choice to continue to cry instead of actually getting better at the game. While you are at it, continue to ignore the question I asked about "macro using CI mes."

    OMEGALUL

    Your choice to keep supporting a broken spec as you're not interested in learning to play a fair game.
    Keep LULing.

  • Hex.8714Hex.8714 Member ✭✭

    yes condi mirage is the most overpowered spec in the game

  • DigiQWill.6378DigiQWill.6378 Member ✭✭✭

    @BadMed.3846 said:

    @DigiQWill.6378 said:

    @BadMed.3846 said:

    @Vicariuz.1605 said:

    @BadMed.3846 said:
    Condi mirage is utterly broken and ridiculously OP. Stop defending it in the name of previous nerfs. They were just not enough and a lot needs to be done to tone down this cheese spec that requires no skill and just macro spams.

    In what world would a CI mirage ever need a macro?
    Secondly, it's far from "utterly broken or ridiculously OP." Like miles from it.

    Learn not to spam your skill bar at people, use your dodges for a purpose, and clear the bleed stack, that's literally all you have to do to beat them.

    It's beyond a joke and absolutely ridiculously broken. Don't try to justify a broken spec by giving L2P excuses. We've had enough of that. mirage needs some solid nerfs.

    Well then, name a nerf that would actually be intelligent, and not just "Nerf it because I want to." For instance, adding an internal cooldown to Chaotic Interruption would do wonders, and removing the Mirage's ability to dodge while hard CCd would balance everything a bit more. Meanwhile, requesting for nerfs on Daze Mantra (which was nerfed so many times I can't even count it) would be outrageous for any non-CI builds, while removing ambush skills would be brain-dead detrimental to the balance. You don't run macros on Mirage - it's one of the most reactive classes in this game, thus macroing would be detrimental to your personal skill cap.

    Your arguments show that you lack knowledge on Mirage, even if you've maybe played it before. Yes, I'm a Mirage main, and I'm super annoyed by CI Condition Interrupt Mirage. As a Power Mirage, I find that its abilities (for power builds) are at least somewhat balanced. Touching CI would be more intelligent than touching how Mirage works, can we agree on that?

    I mean, fundamentally, this Elite Specialization is broken because it can dodge while basically doing anything. They'd need to rework how Mirage works in a whole - and before that, they'd need to rework stuff like Scourge and Holosmith to tune down their respective capabilities. And that's not because I find them very oppressive, I personally have a good time as a Power Mirage fighting either of them. Their skill ceiling access though is too easy, in retrospective to each ladder, and they have currently too much impact in the Meta for them to pass after Mirage. Because let's remember that Mirage isn't seeing much play when you get higher than Gold 3.

    Where top 3 on leaderboards have been Mirage recently you still claim that mirage is not getting much use beyond gold 3. Macros or not, even a bronze player can easily climb the ladder with the broken mirage. Holo and scourge and everything else could do with minor nerfs but mirage needs huge nerfs to make it even acceptable.

    Did you play against said top 3 players multiple times? I did, and they all swapped classes to better fit their composition. And I don't recall one playing condi mirage. Show me some proof instead of shouting unverified "facts".

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