You know mirage is the next... — Guild Wars 2 Forums

You know mirage is the next...

I mean, they want all the specs to have a backdraw from core... IMO they destroyed chrono today... and surelly they will do the same with mirage...

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Comments

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭

    Considering how condition mirage can just safely sit back and barely do anything. Yeah it's more than likely. It's about time they work on that "Active" gameplay they so called for after the Phantasm to Clone update. It's quite stupid that destroying a Phantasm makes a Clone, there has to be drawbacks somewhere. They haven't got much since then.

  • Xion.5694Xion.5694 Member ✭✭
    edited July 16, 2019

    As a Mirage you can only have clones.

  • Levetty.1279Levetty.1279 Member ✭✭✭

    Considering the double whammy of nerfing the duration of Mirage cloak and now removing super speed I'd say Mirage already has its drawback since its dodge can't actually be used for defence. Unfortunately yeah its probably going to get more.

  • @Levetty.1279 said:
    Considering the double whammy of nerfing the duration of Mirage cloak and now removing super speed I'd say Mirage already has its drawback since its dodge can't actually be used for defence. Unfortunately yeah its probably going to get more.

    so, you think a core mesmer is better than a mirage?

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Oh yeah it's pretty much certain at this point - later on this year Mirage should have its F skills changed etc.

    I just hope they take the opportunity to do it well and not half baked.

    My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • @Curunen.8729 said:
    Oh yeah it's pretty much certain at this point - later on this year Mirage should have its F skills changed etc.

    I just hope they take the opportunity to do it well and not half baked.

    well i dont find "bad" what they want to do, not even with chrono, but seems a bit "too much backdraw" actually to be playable, just my opinion...

  • HyperLooser.2698HyperLooser.2698 Member ✭✭✭

    you loosing your normal dodge is a drawback. If they add even more drawbacks then might aswell rework entire elite spec system from ground up for all classes.

  • Tapps.1479Tapps.1479 Member ✭✭

    @HyperLooser.2698 said:
    you loosing your normal dodge is a drawback. If they add even more drawbacks then might aswell rework entire elite spec system from ground up for all classes.

    It's not really a drawback because the new dodge is significantly better. It lets you dodge while casting and dodge while cc'ed.

  • Levetty.1279Levetty.1279 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tapps.1479 said:

    @HyperLooser.2698 said:
    you loosing your normal dodge is a drawback. If they add even more drawbacks then might aswell rework entire elite spec system from ground up for all classes.

    It's not really a drawback because the new dodge is significantly better. It lets you dodge while casting and dodge while cc'ed.

    Yes that's the addition. The drawback is that its pretty terrible for avoiding damage.

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Im just glad my build actually got buffed. Matter of time before it gets a nerf bat tho lol

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
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  • Mikkel.8427Mikkel.8427 Member ✭✭✭

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:
    Im just glad my build actually got buffed. Matter of time before it gets a nerf bat tho lol

    SHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
    (My build was buffed too <.< )

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mikkel.8427 said:

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:
    Im just glad my build actually got buffed. Matter of time before it gets a nerf bat tho lol

    SHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
    (My build was buffed too <.< )

    Havent played for months now (PC is on the fritz) however ive been dreaming about a glorious return and now my mirage is better. Hard to say how I will fare against other people with the last few updates (since march)

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
    twitch.tv/TRMC
    Lover of Jumping puzzles, Squirrels, WvW, and Taimi
    Co-Leader of SOmething inAPpropriate {SOAP}

  • geist.4126geist.4126 Member ✭✭✭

    A mirage nerf would be great and at least justified. The way they nerfed Chrono is just lazy and very stupid.

  • everyman.4375everyman.4375 Member ✭✭✭

    @geist.4126 said:
    A mirage nerf would be great and at least justified. The way they nerfed Chrono is just lazy and very stupid.

    How is another mirage nerf justified ?

  • Nepster.4275Nepster.4275 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2019

    Mirage has its drawback already by basically being unable to move out of AoEs because the dodge give 33% less movement speed so, yeah Mirage is already very different from core mesmer, even the mirage traits are based for dodge so I do not think another nerf would be " justified" if you still get killed by a mirage then it is your skill level and not the profession´s brokenness(?)
    Not even talking about the ALL the traitlines are designed poorly and it is a big mess to use any build, each of its variants are annoying to even use because you either sacrefice damage for boons, or you have boons but way less damage, so now, people should really stop complaining about mesmer and mirage specifically, same for chrono, all the people were crying "omg chrono is so OP i can not go with my boon herald to raids" and things like this, well, now every niche class can go to raids

  • Sodeni.6041Sodeni.6041 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 19, 2019

    Mirage has enough drawbacks: Mirages can't properly gain distance when dodging backwards or sidewards with mirage cloak. Also, Mirage has to use their endurenace offensively to put out damage which weakens their defense when they actually need to dodge an attack.

  • geist.4126geist.4126 Member ✭✭✭

    @everyman.4375 said:

    @geist.4126 said:
    A mirage nerf would be great and at least justified. The way they nerfed Chrono is just lazy and very stupid.

    How is another mirage nerf justified ?

    Go into wvw. Play it, ask again.

  • everyman.4375everyman.4375 Member ✭✭✭

    @geist.4126 said:

    @everyman.4375 said:

    @geist.4126 said:
    A mirage nerf would be great and at least justified. The way they nerfed Chrono is just lazy and very stupid.

    How is another mirage nerf justified ?

    Go into wvw. Play it, ask again.

    If the nerfs are in wvw and not in pvp, why not.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @geist.4126 said:

    @everyman.4375 said:

    @geist.4126 said:
    A mirage nerf would be great and at least justified. The way they nerfed Chrono is just lazy and very stupid.

    How is another mirage nerf justified ?

    Go into wvw. Play it, ask again.

    Lol.

    Mirage, the meta build in WvW for ages. You made a funny didn't you right?

  • Chrono got hit hardest because Anet was furiously finding the right Chrono to nerf through all their clones and time traveling. Finally, they found the true Chrono specialization and nerfed it to death!

  • Mikkel.8427Mikkel.8427 Member ✭✭✭

    @geist.4126 said:

    @everyman.4375 said:

    @geist.4126 said:
    A mirage nerf would be great and at least justified. The way they nerfed Chrono is just lazy and very stupid.

    How is another mirage nerf justified ?

    Go into wvw. Play it, ask again.

    You're totally right. So sick of zergs FULL of Mirages! Gosh, those are awful. Also, those kitten Mirages bursting you off your mount right into the downstate from 1800 range away in under 2 second! Grrrrr, so OP! /s

    A more detailed description of what you're having trouble with would be helpful. Most people on here would be happy to help you learn how to counter whatever specific mechanics you're struggling against.

  • Nepster.4275Nepster.4275 Member ✭✭✭

    @Mikkel.8427 said:

    @geist.4126 said:

    @everyman.4375 said:

    @geist.4126 said:
    A mirage nerf would be great and at least justified. The way they nerfed Chrono is just lazy and very stupid.

    How is another mirage nerf justified ?

    Go into wvw. Play it, ask again.

    You're totally right. So sick of zergs FULL of Mirages! Gosh, those are awful. Also, those kitten Mirages bursting you off your mount right into the downstate from 1800 range away in under 2 second! Grrrrr, so OP! /s

    A more detailed description of what you're having trouble with would be helpful. Most people on here would be happy to help you learn how to counter whatever specific mechanics you're struggling against.

    I love oneshotting people from 1.5k range, it feels so great, and also, I just need to change traits and some weapons and I have so much boons and defenses, not even talking about my permanent stealth ability, and well, if my team asks I go full support and provide all kind of boons for my squad not even talking about all those heals I can toss out to them, I just love how easy is to fill all the roles with only one spec...

  • geist.4126geist.4126 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @geist.4126 said:

    @everyman.4375 said:

    @geist.4126 said:
    A mirage nerf would be great and at least justified. The way they nerfed Chrono is just lazy and very stupid.

    How is another mirage nerf justified ?

    Go into wvw. Play it, ask again.

    Lol.

    Mirage, the meta build in WvW for ages. You made a funny didn't you right?

    This pretty much shows that you never tried it. Try now.

  • geist.4126geist.4126 Member ✭✭✭

    @Mikkel.8427 said:

    @geist.4126 said:

    @everyman.4375 said:

    @geist.4126 said:
    A mirage nerf would be great and at least justified. The way they nerfed Chrono is just lazy and very stupid.

    How is another mirage nerf justified ?

    Go into wvw. Play it, ask again.

    You're totally right. So sick of zergs FULL of Mirages! Gosh, those are awful. Also, those kitten Mirages bursting you off your mount right into the downstate from 1800 range away in under 2 second! Grrrrr, so OP! /s

    A more detailed description of what you're having trouble with would be helpful. Most people on here would be happy to help you learn how to counter whatever specific mechanics you're struggling against.

    First. You started talking about zergs, not me. Second, I switched from Chrono to Mirage on Tuesday. Either try to be realistic, which means "Mirage is way easier to play" than Chrono ever was and way stronger. Same goes for SPvP.

    I really don't care if you want to keep your faceroll spec Mirage is right now. I want propper balancing.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jables.4659 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    Mirage has already been nerfed many, many times already. Jaunt got hit, ambushes got hit, infinite horizon got hit, the trait that breaks stun on dodge got hit 3 times... those are the only ones I remember, but those were all pretty big changes. Mirage went from uncontested best dueling class to a minor nuisance because of those changes.

    Oh trust me there are more. Nomad's Endurance got its Vigor duration cut in half. The actual dodge time was reduced from 1 second to .75 seconds. The Superspeed on dodge was reduced to a 66% speed buff which Im pretty sure makes dodging and running forward move slower than a normal dodge. Axe power and condition damage have been nerfed. And that's just Mirage itself. lets not forget about Anet overbuffing and then proceeding to overnerf Scepter 3, the overnerf to Evasive mirror, the overnerf to Bountiful Disillusionment, the nerf to Staff Phantasms, The nerf to Sword phantasm might generation. The nerf to Blurred Frenzy, the nerf to Illusionary Defense. The list goes on and on. Mesmer is in a sorry state right now and they just keep taking jabs at it.

    Just to expand on this.
    Critical Infusion, the prestige, Phantasmal mage, blinding dissipation, ineptitude, confounding suggestions, power block, portal, maim, illusionary ambush.
    Probably I'm forgetting some too.
    Everything mesmer used was nerfed to the point where traitlines have one or two good traits and nothing more.
    It's hilarious from a balance pov and it's pathetic that people still demand more nerfs, for example people want to nerf CI, chaos will then have 1 good grandmaster (that it's worthless on pvp).
    Well qq until mesmer has the hp and damage of a clone I guess.

    The degenerate

  • Heartpains.7312Heartpains.7312 Member ✭✭✭

    @geist.4126 said:

    First. You started talking about zergs, not me. Second, I switched from Chrono to Mirage on Tuesday. Either try to be realistic, which means "Mirage is way easier to play" than Chrono ever was and way stronger. Same goes for SPvP.

    I really don't care if you want to keep your faceroll spec Mirage is right now. I want propper balancing.

    I only want you to keep playing, if you play as condi, once a FB appeared he/she will negate you, but if you play power like I do, keep playing, I wanna see what you are going to do when you face just these classes with someone who knows what he/she is doing with them.

    Soulbeast
    Thief
    Core warrior
    Rev is also on the list, but i rarely find good revs
    ooh ooh and eles, there is a build that was only killable with hybrid mirage build before nerfs (not sure which patch) since we keep getting nerfed, and they are able to kill if you don't try to runaway (they kill slowly though).

    Keep on playing, eventually you will meet one of them who knows what he/she doing and you won't be able to do anything.

    If core is not worth playing, chrono just got messed up, you don't go on and kill mirage also, don't you find that a bit lame, I honestly had hope for mirage to either get a third charge of jaunt or 20sec cd on jaunt, and a reduction to cd of few skills/traits or tweaks even.

    Nerfing mirage won't be justified at all.

    Next patch they better start working on dead/killed traits for classes, for everyone not just mesmers, it sure will mess up the balance but there is no balance to begin with, I think people would be happier if they had things to choose from rather than just pick the same things because nothing else is worth picking.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 19, 2019

    @geist.4126 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @geist.4126 said:

    @everyman.4375 said:

    @geist.4126 said:
    A mirage nerf would be great and at least justified. The way they nerfed Chrono is just lazy and very stupid.

    How is another mirage nerf justified ?

    Go into wvw. Play it, ask again.

    Lol.

    Mirage, the meta build in WvW for ages. You made a funny didn't you right?

    This pretty much shows that you never tried it. Try now.

    Nah, it rather summs up how you have never played a mirage against current top WvW predators. Assuming we are talking roaming since mirage is useless in blob fights and gets kicked from group. But nice try.

    @geist.4126 said:

    @Mikkel.8427 said:

    @geist.4126 said:

    @everyman.4375 said:

    @geist.4126 said:
    A mirage nerf would be great and at least justified. The way they nerfed Chrono is just lazy and very stupid.

    How is another mirage nerf justified ?

    Go into wvw. Play it, ask again.

    You're totally right. So sick of zergs FULL of Mirages! Gosh, those are awful. Also, those kitten Mirages bursting you off your mount right into the downstate from 1800 range away in under 2 second! Grrrrr, so OP! /s

    A more detailed description of what you're having trouble with would be helpful. Most people on here would be happy to help you learn how to counter whatever specific mechanics you're struggling against.

    First. You started talking about zergs, not me. Second, I switched from Chrono to Mirage on Tuesday. Either try to be realistic, which means "Mirage is way easier to play" than Chrono ever was and way stronger. Same goes for SPvP.

    I really don't care if you want to keep your faceroll spec Mirage is right now. I want propper balancing.

    To summarize:
    You have no experience on mirage. You assumed chrono was in any way good in WvW. Yet you decide to lecture mesmer players (some of wich WvW on multiple classes) of over 6 years how their class performs.

    Got it.

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @geist.4126 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @geist.4126 said:

    @everyman.4375 said:

    @geist.4126 said:
    A mirage nerf would be great and at least justified. The way they nerfed Chrono is just lazy and very stupid.

    How is another mirage nerf justified ?

    Go into wvw. Play it, ask again.

    Lol.

    Mirage, the meta build in WvW for ages. You made a funny didn't you right?

    This pretty much shows that you never tried it. Try now.

    Nah, it rather summs up how you have never played a mirage against current top WvW predators. Assuming we are talking roaming since mirage is useless in blob fights and gets kicked from group. But nice try.

    Current top? Ive played a thoerycrafted DPS mirage for a while now and unless something drastic changed in my build (been keeping up on the patches and nothing yet), Ive beaten roamers from the "top WvW predators". One was a mirage themselves and from a well known guild. With enough skill, any class can beat "top WvW predators".

    As for blobs, guess all my WvW server linkings never cared enough to boot me if/when I choose to join them. Clearly you havent seen any "competent" Mirages.

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
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    Lover of Jumping puzzles, Squirrels, WvW, and Taimi
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  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @geist.4126 said:

    @everyman.4375 said:

    @geist.4126 said:
    A mirage nerf would be great and at least justified. The way they nerfed Chrono is just lazy and very stupid.

    How is another mirage nerf justified ?

    Go into wvw. Play it, ask again.

    You can never balance WvW with ascended gear, food, utility and unequal/fair engagements and now a mount. So please never use WvW as a balance example for anything. By design it is a kitten show and will always be so.

  • Jables.4659Jables.4659 Member ✭✭

    You can never balance WvW with ascended gear, food, utility and unequal/fair engagements and now a mount. So please never use WvW as a balance example for anything. By design it is a kitten show and will always be so.

    It can be balanced to an extent. Anet has made adjustments to consumables that were out of line. Ascended gear is basically a non issue, the best gear in the game is extremely easy to get. If you don't have it, you aren't ready to play competitively. Fair enough on unequal/fair engagements, but that's the charm of WvW. I and many others enjoy 1vX fights. All we are asking for is fair treatment between classes and to bring them to a similar power level in a manner that doesn't leave 2/3 of the traits and skills obsolete. Its a big ask at this point, but a fair one.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 19, 2019

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @geist.4126 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @geist.4126 said:

    @everyman.4375 said:

    @geist.4126 said:
    A mirage nerf would be great and at least justified. The way they nerfed Chrono is just lazy and very stupid.

    How is another mirage nerf justified ?

    Go into wvw. Play it, ask again.

    Lol.

    Mirage, the meta build in WvW for ages. You made a funny didn't you right?

    This pretty much shows that you never tried it. Try now.

    Nah, it rather summs up how you have never played a mirage against current top WvW predators. Assuming we are talking roaming since mirage is useless in blob fights and gets kicked from group. But nice try.

    Current top? Ive played a thoerycrafted DPS mirage for a while now and unless something drastic changed in my build (been keeping up on the patches and nothing yet), Ive beaten roamers from the "top WvW predators". One was a mirage themselves and from a well known guild. With enough skill, any class can beat "top WvW predators".

    As for blobs, guess all my WvW server linkings never cared enough to boot me if/when I choose to join them. Clearly you havent seen any "competent" Mirages.

    If your blobs do not boot you, you have incompetent public commanders. Not even chronos have more than 1-2 spots in public blobs and those are due to Portal (and let's not get started on static guild groups. We run 1 chorno max on 15-20 people IF at all), Gravity Well and Illusion of Live only at the moment (even more with recent nerfs). Given Mirage lacks one of the essential skills, they are outclassed by every meta damage dealer in blob fights and they bring NOTHING to the team, you will get kicked by semi competent commanders unless the squad isn't full.

    Yes, I've been beating spellbreakers and trash opponents too. Do that against a competent opponent and you will be dead, I guarantee it.

    As far as mirage beating mirage? What exactly is that supposed to prove in this situation? It has nothing to do with other WvW classes outperforming Mirage heavily.

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @geist.4126 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @geist.4126 said:

    @everyman.4375 said:

    @geist.4126 said:
    A mirage nerf would be great and at least justified. The way they nerfed Chrono is just lazy and very stupid.

    How is another mirage nerf justified ?

    Go into wvw. Play it, ask again.

    Lol.

    Mirage, the meta build in WvW for ages. You made a funny didn't you right?

    This pretty much shows that you never tried it. Try now.

    Nah, it rather summs up how you have never played a mirage against current top WvW predators. Assuming we are talking roaming since mirage is useless in blob fights and gets kicked from group. But nice try.

    Current top? Ive played a thoerycrafted DPS mirage for a while now and unless something drastic changed in my build (been keeping up on the patches and nothing yet), Ive beaten roamers from the "top WvW predators". One was a mirage themselves and from a well known guild. With enough skill, any class can beat "top WvW predators".

    As for blobs, guess all my WvW server linkings never cared enough to boot me if/when I choose to join them. Clearly you havent seen any "competent" Mirages.

    If your blobs do not boot you, you have incompetent public commanders. Not even chronos have more than 1-2 spots in public blobs and those are due to Portal (and let's not get started on static guild groups. We run 1 chorno max on 15-20 people IF at all), Gravity Well and Illusion of Live only at the moment (even more with recent nerfs). Given Mirage lacks one of the essential skills, they are outclassed by every meta damage dealer in blob fights and they bring NOTHING to the team, you will get kicked by semi competent commanders unless the squad isn't full.

    Our comms typically get the job done so maybe its based on the comptency of our opponents?

    Yes, I've been beating spellbreakers and trash opponents too. Do that against a competent opponent and you will be dead, I guarantee it.

    I can honestly say I have danced with competent opponents and have beaten many. Have I beaten all? Nope and will claim to, however my k/d ratio is on my side.

    As far as mirage beating mirage? What exactly is that supposed to prove in this situation? It has nothing to do with other WvW classes outperforming Mirage heavily.

    The Mirage vs Mirage was just 1 example. I have danced with many good/great/awesome roamers from many many servers. MAde friends with some who, when vs them, we will duel a lot. (Im also on N/A if that matters). Hardest one to beat is a buddy of mine who mains DrD/DE. He is a better rated "predator" for sure and where I am DPS, typically 1 burst and im done, however have about a 50/50 ratio vs him.

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
    twitch.tv/TRMC
    Lover of Jumping puzzles, Squirrels, WvW, and Taimi
    Co-Leader of SOmething inAPpropriate {SOAP}

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 20, 2019

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @geist.4126 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @geist.4126 said:

    @everyman.4375 said:

    @geist.4126 said:
    A mirage nerf would be great and at least justified. The way they nerfed Chrono is just lazy and very stupid.

    How is another mirage nerf justified ?

    Go into wvw. Play it, ask again.

    Lol.

    Mirage, the meta build in WvW for ages. You made a funny didn't you right?

    This pretty much shows that you never tried it. Try now.

    Nah, it rather summs up how you have never played a mirage against current top WvW predators. Assuming we are talking roaming since mirage is useless in blob fights and gets kicked from group. But nice try.

    Current top? Ive played a thoerycrafted DPS mirage for a while now and unless something drastic changed in my build (been keeping up on the patches and nothing yet), Ive beaten roamers from the "top WvW predators". One was a mirage themselves and from a well known guild. With enough skill, any class can beat "top WvW predators".

    As for blobs, guess all my WvW server linkings never cared enough to boot me if/when I choose to join them. Clearly you havent seen any "competent" Mirages.

    If your blobs do not boot you, you have incompetent public commanders. Not even chronos have more than 1-2 spots in public blobs and those are due to Portal (and let's not get started on static guild groups. We run 1 chorno max on 15-20 people IF at all), Gravity Well and Illusion of Live only at the moment (even more with recent nerfs). Given Mirage lacks one of the essential skills, they are outclassed by every meta damage dealer in blob fights and they bring NOTHING to the team, you will get kicked by semi competent commanders unless the squad isn't full.

    Our comms typically get the job done so maybe its based on the comptency of our opponents?

    Sure, could be. Given Mirage offers nothing of value to a blob and I haven't seen any GvG guild use more than 1 chrono (and definately no mirage) in any of their compositions for ages, I'd rather assume the opposite but all is possible.

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Yes, I've been beating spellbreakers and trash opponents too. Do that against a competent opponent and you will be dead, I guarantee it.

    I can honestly say I have danced with competent opponents and have beaten many. Have I beaten all? Nope and will claim to, however my k/d ratio is on my side.

    Sure, we are all pro players and every one of our opponents was a skilled master of his class.

    Statistics and tournaments mean nothing. In which Mirage has been not present for ages btw.

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    As far as mirage beating mirage? What exactly is that supposed to prove in this situation? It has nothing to do with other WvW classes outperforming Mirage heavily.

    The Mirage vs Mirage was just 1 example. I have danced with many good/great/awesome roamers from many many servers. MAde friends with some who, when vs them, we will duel a lot. (Im also on N/A if that matters). Hardest one to beat is a buddy of mine who mains DrD/DE. He is a better rated "predator" for sure and where I am DPS, typically 1 burst and im done, however have about a 50/50 ratio vs him.

    I think you have a huge lack of undertsanding here. What I meant with apex predators was in referance to very srong builds of classes, not indivdual players...

    Why would I mean players when I have no control over whom I meet? The fact there is a lot stronger builds and classes is of significance and also the theme of this topic...

    I'm happy you are such a great player. It is of no significance to the classes performance or balance though.

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @geist.4126 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @geist.4126 said:

    @everyman.4375 said:

    @geist.4126 said:
    A mirage nerf would be great and at least justified. The way they nerfed Chrono is just lazy and very stupid.

    How is another mirage nerf justified ?

    Go into wvw. Play it, ask again.

    Lol.

    Mirage, the meta build in WvW for ages. You made a funny didn't you right?

    This pretty much shows that you never tried it. Try now.

    Nah, it rather summs up how you have never played a mirage against current top WvW predators. Assuming we are talking roaming since mirage is useless in blob fights and gets kicked from group. But nice try.

    Current top? Ive played a thoerycrafted DPS mirage for a while now and unless something drastic changed in my build (been keeping up on the patches and nothing yet), Ive beaten roamers from the "top WvW predators". One was a mirage themselves and from a well known guild. With enough skill, any class can beat "top WvW predators".

    As for blobs, guess all my WvW server linkings never cared enough to boot me if/when I choose to join them. Clearly you havent seen any "competent" Mirages.

    If your blobs do not boot you, you have incompetent public commanders. Not even chronos have more than 1-2 spots in public blobs and those are due to Portal (and let's not get started on static guild groups. We run 1 chorno max on 15-20 people IF at all), Gravity Well and Illusion of Live only at the moment (even more with recent nerfs). Given Mirage lacks one of the essential skills, they are outclassed by every meta damage dealer in blob fights and they bring NOTHING to the team, you will get kicked by semi competent commanders unless the squad isn't full.

    Our comms typically get the job done so maybe its based on the comptency of our opponents?

    Sure, could be. Given Mirage offers nothing of value to a blob and I haven't seen any GvG guild use more than 1 chrono (and definately no mirage) in any of their compositions for ages, I'd rather assume the opposite but all is possible.

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Yes, I've been beating spellbreakers and trash opponents too. Do that against a competent opponent and you will be dead, I guarantee it.

    I can honestly say I have danced with competent opponents and have beaten many. Have I beaten all? Nope and will claim to, however my k/d ratio is on my side.

    Sure, we are all pro players and every one of our opponents was a skilled master of his class.

    Statistics and tournaments mean nothing. In which Mirage has been not present for ages btw.

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    As far as mirage beating mirage? What exactly is that supposed to prove in this situation? It has nothing to do with other WvW classes outperforming Mirage heavily.

    The Mirage vs Mirage was just 1 example. I have danced with many good/great/awesome roamers from many many servers. MAde friends with some who, when vs them, we will duel a lot. (Im also on N/A if that matters). Hardest one to beat is a buddy of mine who mains DrD/DE. He is a better rated "predator" for sure and where I am DPS, typically 1 burst and im done, however have about a 50/50 ratio vs him.

    I think you have a huge lack of undertsanding here. What I meant with apex predators was in referance to very srong builds of classes, not indivdual players...

    Why would I mean players when I have no control over whom I meet? The fact there is a lot stronger builds and classes is of significance and also the theme of this topic...

    I'm happy you are such a great player. It is of no significance to the classes performance or balance though.

    I think of myself more of a decent player than a great player :p
    As for apex preds, only class that gives me issues more than others is rev imo.

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  • I don't think this is a "balance" discussion about "mirage", becasue:

    • 90% of mesmers actually are mirages
    • the backdraw of "less" dodge is "not enough" for it advantadges. (thats actually just my perception)
    • Most mirages uses the passive gameplay (spawn clones, and let them damage with infinite horizon) - Anet stated that they want to remove the passive gameplay. this was the core argument to change how phantasm works
    • they want "core" to be on the same level as "specs": Well, i dont know if anyone played lattely a core mesmer, but there isn't a line that give condi damage, dodge, clone damage, boons (prot-regen) condi damage reduction... i mean, core is FAR away from mirage...

    These are the reasons why seems mirage will be next

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 20, 2019

    @judgebeo.3976 said:
    I don't think this is a "balance" discussion about "mirage", becasue:

    • 90% of mesmers actually are mirages

    For which game mode? This alone is also rather an indicator of chrono not being viable instead of Mirage being to strong (which chrono is not given how it has not been viable for a long time in spvp/wvw). Given both are not represented in higher competative play, I'd go with that assumption for spvp/wvw. In PvE your statement is plain incorrect.

    @judgebeo.3976 said:

    • the backdraw of "less" dodge is "not enough" for it advantadges. (thats actually just my perception)

    Yes, we noticed.

    @judgebeo.3976 said:

    • Most mirages uses the passive gameplay (spawn clones, and let them damage with infinite horizon) - Anet stated that they want to remove the passive gameplay. this was the core argument to change how phantasm works

    For which game mode?
    For wvw/spvp - you will get destroyed if you don't use your shatters
    For pve - you will get outperformed by most condition builds. Condition Soulbeast (which just got buffed more) will outperform you with way easier gameplay. Those high performance mirage damage results (on the fwe condi bosses there are) are 100% not played passively.

    @judgebeo.3976 said:

    • they want "core" to be on the same level as "specs": Well, i dont know if anyone played lattely a core mesmer, but there isn't a line that give condi damage, dodge, clone damage, boons (prot-regen) condi damage reduction... i mean, core is FAR away from mirage...

    Citation please. This has neither never been that case, for any class, for any build at any point in time EVER since elite specializations were added to the game unless by random accident as side result of rebalancing traitlines or core mechanics (like phantasms the first time for mesmer, or core power warrior before the berserker rework). In those cases the next balance patch always made sure the core build did not remain viable above the elite. Not even close. Even the worst performing elite specializations outperformed core builds at the start of HoT by 200-300%. This got even worse with PoF.

  • Levetty.1279Levetty.1279 Member ✭✭✭

    @judgebeo.3976 said:
    Most mirages uses the passive gameplay (spawn clones, and let them damage with infinite horizon

    How is actively using skills and dodges 'passive gameplay'?

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @judgebeo.3976 said:
    I don't think this is a "balance" discussion about "mirage", becasue:

    • 90% of mesmers actually are mirages

    For which game mode? This alone is also rather an indicator of chrono not being viable instead of Mirage being to strong (which chrono is not given how it has not been viable for a long time in spvp/wvw). Given both are not represented in higher competative play, I'd go with that assumption for spvp/wvw. In PvE your statement is plain incorrect.

    @judgebeo.3976 said:

    • the backdraw of "less" dodge is "not enough" for it advantadges. (thats actually just my perception)

    Yes, we noticed.

    @judgebeo.3976 said:

    • Most mirages uses the passive gameplay (spawn clones, and let them damage with infinite horizon) - Anet stated that they want to remove the passive gameplay. this was the core argument to change how phantasm works

    For which game mode?
    For wvw/spvp - you will get destroyed if you don't use your shatters
    For pve - you will get outperformed by most condition builds. Condition Soulbeast (which just got buffed more) will outperform you with way easier gameplay. Those high performance mirage damage results (on the fwe condi bosses there are) are 100% not played passively.

    @judgebeo.3976 said:

    • they want "core" to be on the same level as "specs": Well, i dont know if anyone played lattely a core mesmer, but there isn't a line that give condi damage, dodge, clone damage, boons (prot-regen) condi damage reduction... i mean, core is FAR away from mirage...

    Citation please. This has neither never been that case, for any class, for any build at any point in time EVER since elite specializations were added to the game unless by random accident as side result of rebalancing traitlines or core mechanics (like phantasms the first time for mesmer, or core power warrior before the berserker rework). In those cases the next balance patch always made sure the core build did not remain viable above the elite. Not even close. Even the worst performing elite specializations outperformed core builds at the start of HoT by 200-300%. This got even worse with PoF.

    For real? how many core mesmers did you see lately? if you follow the anet statment of "core=specs" i dont think any of your arguments got any weight.
    You can argue whatever you want with me, for example, you are trying to compare, again, soulbeast with mirage and thats not the case, we are not talking about classes. Is about core and specs and in this situation not core, not chrono are even close to mirage.
    Im sorry if you feel that this is somekind of attack or trying to say what is OP or UP, cause is not. I think the whole mesmer is a bit... "outlove" from devs, trying to balance it with "quantity" instead of "quality", IMO it needs more a revamp than nerfs here or there. That chrono shatters change was a good chance for that, but seeing what they done, i dont have too much faith on mirages future.

  • @Levetty.1279 said:

    @judgebeo.3976 said:
    Most mirages uses the passive gameplay (spawn clones, and let them damage with infinite horizon

    How is actively using skills and dodges 'passive gameplay'?

    thats the thing: "spaming" dodge without any time, and let the pets (clones) attack without using skills isnt active gameplay...

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 21, 2019

    @judgebeo.3976 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @judgebeo.3976 said:
    I don't think this is a "balance" discussion about "mirage", becasue:

    • 90% of mesmers actually are mirages

    For which game mode? This alone is also rather an indicator of chrono not being viable instead of Mirage being to strong (which chrono is not given how it has not been viable for a long time in spvp/wvw). Given both are not represented in higher competative play, I'd go with that assumption for spvp/wvw. In PvE your statement is plain incorrect.

    @judgebeo.3976 said:

    • the backdraw of "less" dodge is "not enough" for it advantadges. (thats actually just my perception)

    Yes, we noticed.

    @judgebeo.3976 said:

    • Most mirages uses the passive gameplay (spawn clones, and let them damage with infinite horizon) - Anet stated that they want to remove the passive gameplay. this was the core argument to change how phantasm works

    For which game mode?
    For wvw/spvp - you will get destroyed if you don't use your shatters
    For pve - you will get outperformed by most condition builds. Condition Soulbeast (which just got buffed more) will outperform you with way easier gameplay. Those high performance mirage damage results (on the fwe condi bosses there are) are 100% not played passively.

    @judgebeo.3976 said:

    • they want "core" to be on the same level as "specs": Well, i dont know if anyone played lattely a core mesmer, but there isn't a line that give condi damage, dodge, clone damage, boons (prot-regen) condi damage reduction... i mean, core is FAR away from mirage...

    Citation please. This has neither never been that case, for any class, for any build at any point in time EVER since elite specializations were added to the game unless by random accident as side result of rebalancing traitlines or core mechanics (like phantasms the first time for mesmer, or core power warrior before the berserker rework). In those cases the next balance patch always made sure the core build did not remain viable above the elite. Not even close. Even the worst performing elite specializations outperformed core builds at the start of HoT by 200-300%. This got even worse with PoF.

    For real? how many core mesmers did you see lately? if you follow the anet statment of "core=specs" i dont think any of your arguments got any weight.

    This is about Mirage and the thread was made in reaction to the recent changes to chrono. So not sure how this is about core only.

    You can argue whatever you want with me, for example, you are trying to compare, again, soulbeast with mirage and thats not the case, we are not talking about classes. Is about core and specs and in this situation not core, not chrono are even close to mirage.

    I don't see balance as class limited but rather like to look at balance and how the game as a whole is affected. If you think every class is getting balanced as a unique bubble, fine. In reality though, all classes compete with each other in the end though.

    Im sorry if you feel that this is somekind of attack or trying to say what is OP or UP, cause is not. I think the whole mesmer is a bit... "outlove" from devs, trying to balance it with "quantity" instead of "quality", IMO it needs more a revamp than nerfs here or there. That chrono shatters change was a good chance for that, but seeing what they done, i dont have too much faith on mirages future.

    Not an attack, just tired of people who clearly do not play mesmer (or any of its elite specs) or at least not in any competative environment be it raids, spvp or wvw come here and give suggestions or opinions with their limited understanding of the class.

    @judgebeo.3976 said:

    @Levetty.1279 said:

    @judgebeo.3976 said:
    Most mirages uses the passive gameplay (spawn clones, and let them damage with infinite horizon

    How is actively using skills and dodges 'passive gameplay'?

    thats the thing: "spaming" dodge without any time, and let the pets (clones) attack without using skills isnt active gameplay...

    Again, that's not how Mirage is played but you are free to assume as much.

  • Delofasht.4231Delofasht.4231 Member ✭✭✭

    @judgebeo.3976 said:

    @Levetty.1279 said:

    @judgebeo.3976 said:
    Most mirages uses the passive gameplay (spawn clones, and let them damage with infinite horizon

    How is actively using skills and dodges 'passive gameplay'?

    thats the thing: "spaming" dodge without any time, and let the pets (clones) attack without using skills isnt active gameplay...

    Spamming dodges results in being out of endurance rather quickly. Timing those dodges to avoid big hits and get damage is far better.

    Also, clone ambushes are generally only strong if an enemy stands rooted in one spot. Any moving target is likely to avoid the most damaging condi ones (scepter and staff). Also, the damage of any clone ambush is merely 1.5x the normal attack and it interrupts a normal clone attack and has a longer cast time.

  • Are we going to conveniently forget that Mirage introduces elite that pretty much negates it's lack of mobility when coupled with staff in condi and sword ambush in power builds? Cuz, you know, drawbacks. And because mesmer elites aren't complete garbage, so using Jaunt for mirage is actually a tough choice, rather than straight upgrade with no efficiency loss?

    Chrono changes are awful, though. Even if it's about same effective as a boonslave, I'm really over playing a boonslave with 3 locked utilities at this point and I just rolled for FB with it's flexible utilities, 3 great builds to use (heal, condi\hybrid quick) and infinitely more fun in tome usage than "a little more planning on using shatters". It offers a lot more flexibility at this point, while Chrono's "saving grace" is that focus can still pull, I guess - you're not even allowed to have something like 20ish-k DPS like each part of firebrigade does, because reasons.

    I really wonder what chrono's traitline is supposed to be, really. We have an interrupt trait, except it rewards you with personal boon and slows - it's okay, but completely irrelevant due to Lost Time. Boring +dps trait, okay, easy pick here. Healing wells? Never relevant, Mesmer is not allowed to heal for whatever reason, so you only really use it once in a blue moon and mostly for open world or patching up poor healing management from your actual support. Not a great trait overall, since it has no synergy with anything and doesn't open us up to a build option. It's just "give up 10% damage on shatters for meh burst heals sometimes".
    Danger time introduces reliance on condition that you yourself can't reasonably generate unless you stack chronos with timewarps (not a great design, but an effective debacle solution) or run Viper - which makes the very power-oriented buff sort of unnecessary. Illusionary Reversion feels weaker than what it was, and if you could use it before for easier burst management and generation, now it's just sort of a lame patch to an awful Illusionary Persona change. Which doesn't help and makes it still clunky, while we also give up Danger Time for that. Third one literally just exists so that boonslave could actually get good uptimes, which, again, isn't a great design or something that promotes build diversity. If anything, taking this trait should allow boonslave to drop a well out of it's utility bar or something, to free it up a little for actual utility.
    And now grandomastersu! Lost time is fine, though I wish it had a little more rather than just spamming CC for slows. Maybe bring back the stack mechanics too, but make it once in 10 hits? So it's both on CC and each 10 hits? Seize the Moment - never useful anymore and warrants a rework/replacement. Chronophantasma - overwhelmingly popular trait that won't be replaced by Lost Time in PvE, though won't see any play in PvP anymore either due to being weak now. Suggestion - make CPH a minor, since it really is something that Chrono should do always, make a new support grandmaster. I also think they should make IH in Mirage into a minor, because it really is just spec-defining and will never not be used, so no matter how much they'll buff dune cloak and (kek) Ellusive Mind, I don't see them being picked ever.

  • Vincenzo.3145Vincenzo.3145 Member ✭✭✭

    Nah, they're just gonna keep kitten on support players. Thief doesn't even have a support build and they got a freaking portal.

  • Levetty.1279Levetty.1279 Member ✭✭✭

    @judgebeo.3976 said:

    @Levetty.1279 said:

    @judgebeo.3976 said:
    Most mirages uses the passive gameplay (spawn clones, and let them damage with infinite horizon

    How is actively using skills and dodges 'passive gameplay'?

    thats the thing: "spaming" dodge without any time, and let the pets (clones) attack without using skills isnt active gameplay...

    Spamming dodges is a good way to do low damage and end up dead.

  • @geist.4126 said:
    A mirage nerf would be great and at least justified. The way they nerfed Chrono is just lazy and very stupid.

    For some reasons you miss the point... Mirage can stand in pvp/wvw fights, every class does except for Chrono.
    What you should be saying is "keep mirage as it is , but buff chrono".

  • @Vincenzo.3145 said:
    Nah, they're just gonna keep kitten on support players. Thief doesn't even have a support build and they got a freaking portal.

    Also keep in mind , DE can provide Zerg scale 25 stack of might, fury ,swiftness and vigor for more than 30 secs within 5 secs
    meaning could provide support better than chrono, lol

  • Zin Dau.1749Zin Dau.1749 Member ✭✭✭

    @Xion.5694 said:
    As a Mirage you can only have clones.

    In Soviet Tyria, the illusions clone you. >_>

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