do you guys think a cap on persistent aoe's in an area would work? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

do you guys think a cap on persistent aoe's in an area would work?

Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited November 10, 2019 in WvW

by persistent aoe's I mean anything that's pulsing, or other persistent aoe's like shades. single hit aoe's like hammer stun wouldn't be effected, neither would cascading aoe's.

if the cap is reached, the caster receives a failed to cast message. for example say its 15. it could be configured to have no overlap (meaning if the radius of your skill touches any point of the cap, it fails) or overlap (another adjustable, say allow 33% of the casters aoe to enter into the cap). could further punish target caps with skills entering interrupt cd but I don't think that would be necessary. I have no idea if this should also apply to support skills, you would think so at first but idk. I don't have the numbers to say yes or no.

edit
assume support aoe's and offensive aoe's have separate caps from each other.

<1

Comments

  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 6, 2019

    I don't get what you're trying to say with how it is supposed to be different from target caps.

    Edit: If I get your meaning, LOL. Good luck with that in PvE (or any of the tower/keep lords).

  • So, you want to nerf Shades?

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arioch.6507 said:
    So, you want to nerf Shades?

    Looks like a nerf to anything that does pressure damage so basically only spike damage would kill. But we can't have that or the screeching monkeys will complain about getting hit for over 5k damage by "instant invisible boogyman" skills.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • i'm hearing a hard no.

  • @Chaba.5410 said:
    I don't get what you're trying to say with how it is supposed to be different from target caps.

    Edit: If I get your meaning, LOL. Good luck with that in PvE (or any of the tower/keep lords).

    this is wvw only. wouldn't matter much for lords since you can just auto attack for credit, in fact it would probably raise the ttk a bit.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Forcefully limiting aoe skill usage in environment that begs for aoes seems pretty bad to me. It could work in strictly competitive premade teams, but not really in wvw where randoms can, should and do form the zergs.

  • SloRules.3560SloRules.3560 Member ✭✭✭

    Really, REALLY bad bandaid. It limits people by some arbitrary rules and takes a whole lot of checking for fields if they overlap, people,....

    They should simply reduce the number of aoes, targets, pulses,...

  • Whiteout.1975Whiteout.1975 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 6, 2019

    This is one thing I tried suggesting similarly in the past if I'm understanding you correctly. Basically, add a separate cap limit (This is different from the typical 5 targets max)... This can be described as "overall threshold of affect-able targets in total". Once that number is reached... The passive "pulsing" AoE fails or get's nerfed in some reasonable way assuming it would otherwise still be active/have time left.

    • To further clarify for those who still don't get it. As an example, say we have a max number of targets per pulse, which is typically "5". With a threshold of "15" targets max. If you reach 15 targets in roughly (or exactly) 3 secs (5 targets per pulse per second). The AoE would ether cease to exist or become nerfed in some way; if it's normal time was greater than 3 seconds.

    • Small extra example of how this would look: "5 max targets per pulse with a threshold of 15 targets total". Think of "15" like ammo... How many shots you can get off before you have to "reload" or swamp to a new weapon.

    However, I will warn in doing this... Anytime we nerf AoEs by themselves alone outright... We risk affecting AoEs in situations to which they are not actually a problem. Think of any number of situations to where AoEs are not a problem now. Well, this could potentially make those experience's unpleasant for the sake of making other situations more pleasant. This turns into a double edge sword with something else to complain about. Therefore, I rather stray away from things like this because of that.

    The conclusion I reached after considering all this and then some is this ultimately...

    • IMO, each player should have a max number of AoEs that they can be affected by, at a time, by default. I don't know the perfect number of course, but players should still be able to kill other players considering we got way more than just "passive" AoEs at our disposal. This would also encourage a more active play-style over a passive one without risking nerfing AoEs in situations to where there is already no problem. And... The number can be set here for what is considered "too many AoE's" to be affecting a player by default. In order to help prevent these unpleasant situations all around; once a solid number representing "too many AoE's" is found... Leaving already pleasant gameplay situations untouched and un-nerfed.

    So @Stand The Wall.6987... Personally, I do think a cap could work great. I just believe it's best done from the perspective of the player (not AoEs in general) for exactly the situations they personally find themselves in; where AoE's do involve them. That's all I got :) <3

    "You can't have quality population balance without quality participation." 🤯

    ~ Me

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2019

    Caps won't work, because even the existing AoE caps don't work. This is simple math, with a flat cap instead of scaling, one person can affect five people at 100% potency, that means that AoE skills will always be 3-5x stronger than any defense, that's the problem.

    If all AoE in the game scaled damage, condition and CC duration instead of a hard cap, they'd become alot less powerful overnight.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder | Mains Mariyuuna, Tempest, Water mage | Also Bappy Pawbeans, Soulbeast | ♀♥♀
    Sorry if I seem annoying or harsh, I'm just bad at communicating properly. ><
    /"Love me, hate me, but always love me" - Unknown/

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2019

    “Come play wvw! It’s an awesome mode where hundreds of players battle it out across 4 maps!”

    “Ok cool, let’s go!”

    “Failed to cast”
    “Failed to cast”
    “Failed to cast”
    “Failed to cast”
    “Failed to cast”
    “Failed to cast”
    “Failed to cast”
    “Failed to cast”
    “Failed to cast”

    “kitten?”

  • DeadlySynz.3471DeadlySynz.3471 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Sure why not give it a try, but on the condition they make all melee skills act the same way or all those skills used in 300 range. If they overlap (which they always do), they also get the "failed to cast" or "failed to connect" with each swing.

  • If you stand in 15 circles, you and 4 friends who are also standing in the same 15 AoEs deserve siege burials. Lol, you had to have seen that bomb coming and at least tried to dodge at some point?

  • Clownmug.8357Clownmug.8357 Member ✭✭✭

    @acdspydar.8920 said:
    If you stand in 15 circles, you and 4 friends who are also standing in the same 15 AoEs deserve siege burials. Lol, you had to have seen that bomb coming and at least tried to dodge at some point?

    Yeah they can see it coming, but only at 1-5 frames per second.

  • @Clownmug.8357 said:

    @acdspydar.8920 said:
    If you stand in 15 circles, you and 4 friends who are also standing in the same 15 AoEs deserve siege burials. Lol, you had to have seen that bomb coming and at least tried to dodge at some point?

    Yeah they can see it coming, but only at 1-5 frames per second.

    Honestly, the only time I've eaten low frame rates is when I was in stonemist with 2 other blob servers... I strongly believe that's the players unawareness if not the toaster's fault otherwise.

  • Clownmug.8357Clownmug.8357 Member ✭✭✭

    @acdspydar.8920 said:

    @Clownmug.8357 said:

    @acdspydar.8920 said:
    If you stand in 15 circles, you and 4 friends who are also standing in the same 15 AoEs deserve siege burials. Lol, you had to have seen that bomb coming and at least tried to dodge at some point?

    Yeah they can see it coming, but only at 1-5 frames per second.

    Honestly, the only time I've eaten low frame rates is when I was in stonemist with 2 other blob servers... I strongly believe that's the players unawareness if not the toaster's fault otherwise.

    There's also the server lag making any input require continuous button mashing. If dodge goes off they see a dozen "Evaded!" then die mid-animation.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    well if players are stacked the skills cast to them are not necessarily going to hit because of ae limit and damage mitigation.

    hence why having more on tag ensures more survival.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Whiteout.1975Whiteout.1975 Member ✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    “Come play wvw! It’s an awesome mode where hundreds of players battle it out across 4 maps!”

    “Ok cool, let’s go!”

    “Failed to cast”
    “Failed to cast”
    “Failed to cast”
    “Failed to cast”
    “Failed to cast”
    “Failed to cast”
    “Failed to cast”
    “Failed to cast”
    “Failed to cast”

    “kitten?”

    Lol... But what happened to all your other skillz?

    "You can't have quality population balance without quality participation." 🤯

    ~ Me

  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Whiteout.1975 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    “Come play wvw! It’s an awesome mode where hundreds of players battle it out across 4 maps!”

    “Ok cool, let’s go!”

    “Failed to cast”
    “Failed to cast”
    “Failed to cast”
    “Failed to cast”
    “Failed to cast”
    “Failed to cast”
    “Failed to cast”
    “Failed to cast”
    “Failed to cast”

    “kitten?”

    Lol... But what happened to all your other skillz?

    He only tried to use 1 skill over and over, because thats how many ppl try to play the mode

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SloRules.3560 said:
    They should simply reduce the number of aoes, targets, pulses,...

    Or something even simpler as...

    ... reduce the actual AoE.

    Cut all ground AoE radius by say... 33%. Right off the bat, 1/3rd lower radius. No cries about nerfs, everything is reduced.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2019

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:
    I don't get what you're trying to say with how it is supposed to be different from target caps.

    Edit: If I get your meaning, LOL. Good luck with that in PvE (or any of the tower/keep lords).

    this is wvw only. wouldn't matter much for lords since you can just auto attack for credit, in fact it would probably raise the ttk a bit.

    How about just moving out of the pulsing AoE? Have you tried that?

  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    well if players are stacked the skills cast to them are not necessarily going to hit because of ae limit and damage mitigation.

    hence why having more on tag ensures more survival.

    Exactly. This really isn't any different from target caps.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Whiteout.1975 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    “Come play wvw! It’s an awesome mode where hundreds of players battle it out across 4 maps!”

    “Ok cool, let’s go!”

    “Failed to cast”
    “Failed to cast”
    “Failed to cast”
    “Failed to cast”
    “Failed to cast”
    “Failed to cast”
    “Failed to cast”
    “Failed to cast”
    “Failed to cast”

    “kitten?”

    Lol... But what happened to all your other skillz?

    Confused by the meaning of my post and need it explained to you?

  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2019

    To be perfectly honest, if they were to do an overhaul of skills (and this suggestion is systemic so it would be an overhaul) they should treat range and mechanics at different ranges the same as every other issue that has been brought up.

    The problem with things like reticled, ranged, AoE is that the elite specialisations has brought in too much of them (compare eg., Weaver and core Ele and you will see them problem clearly represented on the skill bar; similar arguments could be made for eg., Scourge which has never been the support spec it was envisioned to be because they added another reticle AoE mechanic to the class that already had the most, so they have been played like Core Necro+1).

    If they were to overhaul the systems I would prefer them to go back to the core drawing board of the different ranges and what they are meant to represent. I don't mind the reticle AoE mechanic in it's design. It is generally a good design. However, in broad strokes, long ranged abilities should come with less control because being at range is a form of control and they should come with an added difficulty of application because range is an inherent advantage of application. That way they can avoid having to balance the different ranges through damage or DPS.

    Reticled AoE is a good design but it should be limited on the skillbar and the other mechanics there should be more limited in scope and subjected more evenly across classes to things like "projectile hate". Things like core Staff Ele or even the so loathed Longbow Ranger is a better benchmark of how ranged abilities should be balanced both between ranged classes and in relation to shorter-ranged abilities. The other stuff that currently stands out in terms of mechanics and makes ranged combat so favourable are the exceptions and the result of the specialisations breaking the system by breaking out of the system mechanically (adding more reticles, more ease of application at range and more control at range).

    Back to the roots, tucking things back into the system because the system used to work, is the way forward. It's the same for range-balance as it is for boons, conditions and effects. They used to have a system built on a vision that worked well.

    Going back to the basics would involve balancing the control mechanics, the application mechanics and effect type as well as the arc of the cleaves based on 300, 600, 900 and 1200. Longer abilities should have narrower arcs, more limited types (ie., more projectile / less blast - fewer reticles but still reticles with fields) and fewer CC components. Shorter abilities should have broader arcs in their cleaves, more powerful effect types (ie., more blast) and more CC-components. That is a very logical and simple balance that the game used to have. That is still the system, it's only been conflated and convoluted by elites.

    Obviously cooldowns and the spam-ability of things should also be taken into account when looking at the mechanics of abilities at different ranges.

  • @Whiteout.1975 said:
    snips

    no pretty sure its not the same idea. mine is an cap of total aoes in one specific area.

  • @Swagger.1459 said:
    “Failed to cast”

    it would be annoying at first, but as long as the cap is high enough to make people continually move to not die then new aoes could be cast. do you think the current system of spam everything for maximum effectiveness is good game play? I don't. I think people would get over it if the cap was high enough to not prevent casting for more then 3-5 seconds.

  • @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Cut all ground AoE radius by say... 33%. Right off the bat, 1/3rd lower radius. No cries about nerfs, everything is reduced.

    lol, aoe would be pretty worthless with a radius nerf. imagine a necro well with 160 radius... ouch. everything would get 1 maybe 2 tics max.

  • @Chaba.5410 said:
    How about just moving out of the pulsing AoE? Have you tried that?

    have you played the game recently? aoe's sort of plaster the ground every few seconds making most encounters 1 pushes or pirate ship scenarios. if by some miracle alliances solve all our problems and create even numbers across the board, we will still be left with what is in my opinion spammy degenerate game play that requires no coordination or foresight.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2019

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    “Failed to cast”

    it would be annoying at first, but as long as the cap is high enough to make people continually move to not die then new aoes could be cast. do you think the current system of spam everything for maximum effectiveness is good game play? I don't. I think people would get over it if the cap was high enough to not prevent casting for more then 3-5 seconds.

    Having a mode designed for hundreds of players doing battle, then telling them they can’t use skills, under certain conditions, inside this mode designed for hundreds of players doing battle, is probably one of the top worst quality suggestion I’ve seen thus far.

    According to this aoe logic, if there are enough support healers in the area then our heal skills should “failed to cast” too... right?

    Pay attention to what Cal is doing. The team is reducing number of targets on a set of aoe skills. And that’s how to handle too many AoEs. Not what some of you have suggested over the years period.

  • @Clownmug.8357 said:

    @acdspydar.8920 said:

    @Clownmug.8357 said:

    @acdspydar.8920 said:
    If you stand in 15 circles, you and 4 friends who are also standing in the same 15 AoEs deserve siege burials. Lol, you had to have seen that bomb coming and at least tried to dodge at some point?

    Yeah they can see it coming, but only at 1-5 frames per second.

    Honestly, the only time I've eaten low frame rates is when I was in stonemist with 2 other blob servers... I strongly believe that's the players unawareness if not the toaster's fault otherwise.

    There's also the server lag making any input require continuous button mashing. If dodge goes off they see a dozen "Evaded!" then die mid-animation.

    I'm just gonna point this out:

    Balancing the game around Anet's kitten coding/servers is NOT a good idea.

  • @Swagger.1459 said:
    Having a mode designed for hundreds of players doing battle, then telling them they can’t use skills, under certain conditions, inside this mode designed for hundreds of players doing battle, is probably one of the top worst quality suggestion I’ve seen thus far.

    According to this aoe logic, if there are enough support healers in the area then our heal skills should “failed to cast” too... right?

    Pay attention to what Cal is doing. The team is reducing number of targets on a set of aoe skills. And that’s how to handle too many AoEs. Not what some of you have suggested over the years period.

    the message would only pop up in blob vs blob fights for no more then a few seconds. it would not effect a lot of encounters, more so in lower tiers. do you understand what I mean when I say pulsing aoe's? there really aren't enough support aoe's to ever pop this failed to cast message. I also stated that if necessary just remove the limitation on support skills.

  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2019

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:
    How about just moving out of the pulsing AoE? Have you tried that?

    have you played the game recently? aoe's sort of plaster the ground every few seconds making most encounters 1 pushes or pirate ship scenarios. if by some miracle alliances solve all our problems and create even numbers across the board, we will still be left with what is in my opinion spammy degenerate game play that requires no coordination or foresight.

    Why yes, I have played the game recently. Had no problems moving out of the pulsing AoE. Why would I stay in some pulsing damage circle anyway? And why on earth would you want the pulsing damage circles to be all spread out across a wider area of ground rather than kept in a smaller area where target caps already easily take care of damage mitigation?

  • Clownmug.8357Clownmug.8357 Member ✭✭✭

    @YTKafka.4681 said:

    @Clownmug.8357 said:

    @acdspydar.8920 said:

    @Clownmug.8357 said:

    @acdspydar.8920 said:
    If you stand in 15 circles, you and 4 friends who are also standing in the same 15 AoEs deserve siege burials. Lol, you had to have seen that bomb coming and at least tried to dodge at some point?

    Yeah they can see it coming, but only at 1-5 frames per second.

    Honestly, the only time I've eaten low frame rates is when I was in stonemist with 2 other blob servers... I strongly believe that's the players unawareness if not the toaster's fault otherwise.

    There's also the server lag making any input require continuous button mashing. If dodge goes off they see a dozen "Evaded!" then die mid-animation.

    I'm just gonna point this out:

    Balancing the game around Anet's kitten coding/servers is NOT a good idea.

    You're right, that's why the servers lag so much compared to the first few years of the game. Balance team didn't care about infrastructure and created a bunch of power crept skills/traits stacked with multiple boons, conditions, and other effects that eat up all the servers' resources.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Having a mode designed for hundreds of players doing battle, then telling them they can’t use skills, under certain conditions, inside this mode designed for hundreds of players doing battle, is probably one of the top worst quality suggestion I’ve seen thus far.

    According to this aoe logic, if there are enough support healers in the area then our heal skills should “failed to cast” too... right?

    Pay attention to what Cal is doing. The team is reducing number of targets on a set of aoe skills. And that’s how to handle too many AoEs. Not what some of you have suggested over the years period.

    the message would only pop up in blob vs blob fights for no more then a few seconds. it would not effect a lot of encounters, more so in lower tiers. do you understand what I mean when I say pulsing aoe's? there really aren't enough support aoe's to ever pop this failed to cast message. I also stated that if necessary just remove the limitation on support skills.

    First of all, there won’t be a message telling players they can’t use skills, just because some other players used their skills. Second, that was just an example to highlight how low quality and poorly thought-out the suggestion really is.

  • Whiteout.1975Whiteout.1975 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 8, 2019

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Whiteout.1975 said:
    snips

    no pretty sure its not the same idea. mine is an cap of total aoes in one specific area.

    Oh alright I see. So... You basically want to treat AoEs like siege kinda. If "too many" are in an area already... The skill fails. I mean I honestly don't see a problem with that :)

    Some people be acting like all they have to kill players with is (passive) AoEs and forgot about their other skills available to them. IMO, we should be playing through focusing down targets more so anyways. Less spamming so many AoEs to the point to where even if you do escape them somewhat... You can quickly find yourself back in a field of AoEs faster than you can re-escape them again.

    "You can't have quality population balance without quality participation." 🤯

    ~ Me

  • @Hannelore.8153 said:
    Caps won't work, because even the existing AoE caps don't work. This is simple math, with a flat cap instead of scaling, one person can affect five people at 100% potency, that means that AoE skills will always be 3-5x stronger than any defense, that's the problem.

    If all AoE in the game scaled damage, condition and CC duration instead of a hard cap, they'd become alot less powerful overnight.

    i'm not sure I follow here.

  • @Chaba.5410 said:
    Why yes, I have played the game recently. Had no problems moving out of the pulsing AoE. Why would I stay in some pulsing damage circle anyway? And why on earth would you want the pulsing damage circles to be all spread out across a wider area of ground rather than kept in a smaller area where target caps already easily take care of damage mitigation?

    ok. have you played against blobs? as soon as you move out of those aoe's they replaster everywhere making sustain impossible. have you noticed how each expac adds 10x more aoe? are you content with the status quo? just wondering.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 8, 2019

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    First of all, there won’t be a message telling players they can’t use skills, just because some other players used their skills. Second, that was just an example to highlight how low quality and poorly thought-out the suggestion really is.

    actually yes thats sort of how it would work. your example was addressed twice already. once in the op, and again by me since you're making me repeat myself.

  • ok, with this change, you know what happened?

    Every aoe class besides necros would be flamed of the maps. Because shades&marks are still so much more 'useful' than anything else. The result? 10fb/2scrapper/38 necro blobs AND NOTHING ELSE.

    This idea is so bad, it is hard to describe, the more I think about it, the more bad moments this would create would pop up (oh no, no heals, because the scourges popped a mark to many for example).

  • @subversiontwo.7501 said:
    snips

    yeah man great stuff.

  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 8, 2019

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:
    Why yes, I have played the game recently. Had no problems moving out of the pulsing AoE. Why would I stay in some pulsing damage circle anyway? And why on earth would you want the pulsing damage circles to be all spread out across a wider area of ground rather than kept in a smaller area where target caps already easily take care of damage mitigation?

    ok. have you played against blobs? as soon as you move out of those aoe's they replaster everywhere making sustain impossible. have you noticed how each expac adds 10x more aoe? are you content with the status quo? just wondering.

    OK so you want to replace pulsing AoEs that get replastered in a small area with pulsing AoEs that get replastered in a wider area because of your target cap making it more difficult to find and move to AoE-free space? You're sort of not addressing what I said in my last post.

  • Whiteout.1975Whiteout.1975 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 9, 2019

    I just wanted to add something. I'm not saying to or not to do this... OR that this would be a complete fix, but to consider...

    What about throwing a default timer on how many (passive) AoEs you can throw down every few seconds? Like can you build up magical charges (you can see visually) that cause you to overload until that timer dies down some or back to zero. And say the cap is 3 charges max maybe per player.

    • Then you can get get very specific with this if you want. Like say we go by radius's for instance... If you have "3" 180 radius passive AoEs. Then that can earn you 1 magicial overload charge. "3" active 240 radius's, by you, can give you 1 magical overload charge too and so on.

    • Then to compensate... If you're on a class with more AoEs on your build especially. The overload can cause secondary skills (non-passive AoEs) (similar to when you get stealth on thief and can preform sneak attacks or chaining skills in general, but done through magical overloads) to become available in place of all the passive AoEs you can't use for a short time until you can use those AoEs again... And again every time you overload. Separate cool downs for these new limited time skills too of course.

    This will not fix the short term initial point of laying AoEs. However, this should at least slow down the long term rate AoE's can be applied overall and actually force people to focus targets better to make fight's more interesting. While still having access to their skills overall, done in the form of a "trade off" if overloaded. Which, should also pretty much kill the "failed skill" complaint because you would just get a new one anyways to compensate. A new skill that enforces the point of overload's existing of course; meaning the skill will at least not be a "passive AoE", but more instant rather than long term.

    Lastly, I just want to also say (in a general sense) that 1 strict idea from nearly anyone might not be the full on answer, but rather a piece of the actual answer in the long run. So please consider that too for people in general :)

    "You can't have quality population balance without quality participation." 🤯

    ~ Me

  • Cuks.8241Cuks.8241 Member ✭✭✭

    Failed to cast would be to annoying.
    How about you can only get hit by the same type of aoe as frequently as the skill ticks. So if a certain aoe ticks every second you can only get hit by those skills once every second regardless of the amount of them plastered under your feet.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Whiteout.1975 said:
    I just wanted to add something. I'm not saying to or not to do this... OR that this would be a complete fix, but to consider...

    What about throwing a default timer on how many (passive) AoEs you can throw down every few seconds? Like can you build up magical charges (you can see visually) that cause you to overload until that timer dies down some or back to zero. And say the cap is 3 charges max maybe per player.

    • Then you can get get very specific with this if you want. Like say we go by radius's for instance... If you have "3" 180 radius passive AoEs. Then that can earn you 1 magicial overload charge. "3" active 240 radius's, by you, can give you 1 magical overload charge too and so on.

    • Then to compensate... If you're on a class with more AoEs on your build especially. The overload can cause secondary skills (non-passive AoEs) (similar to when you get stealth on thief and can preform sneak attacks or chaining skills in general, but done through magical overloads) to become available in place of all the passive AoEs you can't use for a short time until you can use those AoEs again... And again every time you overload. Separate cool downs for these new limited time skills too of course.

    This will not fix the short term initial point of laying AoEs. However, this should at least slow down the long term rate AoE's can be applied overall and actually force people to focus targets better to make fight's more interesting. While still having access to their skills overall, done in the form of a "trade off" if overloaded. Which, should also pretty much kill the "failed skill" complaint because you would just get a new one anyways to compensate. A new skill that enforces the point of overload's existing of course; meaning the skill will at least not be a "passive AoE", but more instant rather than long term.

    Lastly, I just want to also say (in a general sense) that 1 strict idea from nearly anyone might not be the full on answer, but rather a piece of the actual answer in the long run. So please consider that too for people in general :)

    Yes, let’s add more rules the servers need to process in real time, add more lag, annoy more players and not address the real issues.

    I wonder sometimes if people really try to think ideas through to conclusion.

  • Whiteout.1975Whiteout.1975 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 9, 2019

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Whiteout.1975 said:
    I just wanted to add something. I'm not saying to or not to do this... OR that this would be a complete fix, but to consider...

    What about throwing a default timer on how many (passive) AoEs you can throw down every few seconds? Like can you build up magical charges (you can see visually) that cause you to overload until that timer dies down some or back to zero. And say the cap is 3 charges max maybe per player.

    • Then you can get get very specific with this if you want. Like say we go by radius's for instance... If you have "3" 180 radius passive AoEs. Then that can earn you 1 magicial overload charge. "3" active 240 radius's, by you, can give you 1 magical overload charge too and so on.

    • Then to compensate... If you're on a class with more AoEs on your build especially. The overload can cause secondary skills (non-passive AoEs) (similar to when you get stealth on thief and can preform sneak attacks or chaining skills in general, but done through magical overloads) to become available in place of all the passive AoEs you can't use for a short time until you can use those AoEs again... And again every time you overload. Separate cool downs for these new limited time skills too of course.

    This will not fix the short term initial point of laying AoEs. However, this should at least slow down the long term rate AoE's can be applied overall and actually force people to focus targets better to make fight's more interesting. While still having access to their skills overall, done in the form of a "trade off" if overloaded. Which, should also pretty much kill the "failed skill" complaint because you would just get a new one anyways to compensate. A new skill that enforces the point of overload's existing of course; meaning the skill will at least not be a "passive AoE", but more instant rather than long term.

    Lastly, I just want to also say (in a general sense) that 1 strict idea from nearly anyone might not be the full on answer, but rather a piece of the actual answer in the long run. So please consider that too for people in general :)

    Yes, let’s add more rules the servers need to process in real time, add more lag, annoy more players and not address the real issues.

    I wonder sometimes if people really try to think ideas through to conclusion.

    Somehow I knew you couldn't resist lol... Very well. You say the same thing over and over... And over. Which, seems like some sorta cover up to avoid a more in depth explanation (assuming you have one). So... If you'd be so kind. Please explain how "rules" that are meant to prevent a theoretically broader/larger set of functions (the set we have now, generally speaking) from happening... Actually "add more lag"?

    FYI... Spamming passive AoEs to the extent it can be done is a real issue. Which is why we are here discussing it :) Why it's a problem isn't only because of "lag", but creates a sorta mindless sense of gameplay feel when there are "too many AoEs". It's how many AoE's that can affect a player, each player, at a time. I could care less if I saw say... 50 AoEs in the distance with no one inside them because players aren't inside them to influence more calculations... So that's the bigger issue if you want me to get more technical here.

    Despite this, I only gave the example I gave to overcome the "failed skill" complaint by making newer ones available. Chaining skills or earning new skills is nothing new honestly lol. Though, regardless, some people still seem to be forgetting they have other skills to utilize in assisting whatever it is that needs to be done anyways. However, I'm still very much for just limiting the number of AoE's that can affect a player by default because you should not need 25 or 50 x AoEs to kill/support a player. And because I think that would be the most simple fix. However, if @Anet wanted to get more technical with that, they could. There should be enough other/different skills to do that job available to you. If you don't... Something isn't right; whether it be learning to play or balance.

    "You can't have quality population balance without quality participation." 🤯

    ~ Me

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 9, 2019

    @Whiteout.1975 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Whiteout.1975 said:
    I just wanted to add something. I'm not saying to or not to do this... OR that this would be a complete fix, but to consider...

    What about throwing a default timer on how many (passive) AoEs you can throw down every few seconds? Like can you build up magical charges (you can see visually) that cause you to overload until that timer dies down some or back to zero. And say the cap is 3 charges max maybe per player.

    • Then you can get get very specific with this if you want. Like say we go by radius's for instance... If you have "3" 180 radius passive AoEs. Then that can earn you 1 magicial overload charge. "3" active 240 radius's, by you, can give you 1 magical overload charge too and so on.

    • Then to compensate... If you're on a class with more AoEs on your build especially. The overload can cause secondary skills (non-passive AoEs) (similar to when you get stealth on thief and can preform sneak attacks or chaining skills in general, but done through magical overloads) to become available in place of all the passive AoEs you can't use for a short time until you can use those AoEs again... And again every time you overload. Separate cool downs for these new limited time skills too of course.

    This will not fix the short term initial point of laying AoEs. However, this should at least slow down the long term rate AoE's can be applied overall and actually force people to focus targets better to make fight's more interesting. While still having access to their skills overall, done in the form of a "trade off" if overloaded. Which, should also pretty much kill the "failed skill" complaint because you would just get a new one anyways to compensate. A new skill that enforces the point of overload's existing of course; meaning the skill will at least not be a "passive AoE", but more instant rather than long term.

    Lastly, I just want to also say (in a general sense) that 1 strict idea from nearly anyone might not be the full on answer, but rather a piece of the actual answer in the long run. So please consider that too for people in general :)

    Yes, let’s add more rules the servers need to process in real time, add more lag, annoy more players and not address the real issues.

    I wonder sometimes if people really try to think ideas through to conclusion.

    Somehow I knew you couldn't resist lol... Very well. You say the same thing over and over... And over. Which, seems like some sorta cover up to avoid a more in depth explanation (assuming you have one). So... If you'd be so kind. Please explain how "rules" that are meant to prevent a theoretically broader/larger set of functions (the set we have now, generally speaking) from happening... Actually "add more lag"?

    FYI... Spamming passive AoEs to the extent it can be done is a real issue. Which is why we are here discussing it :) Why it's a problem isn't only because of "lag", but creates a sorta mindless sense of gameplay feel when there are "too many AoEs". It's how many AoE's that can affect a player, each player, at a time. I could care less if I saw say... 50 AoEs in the distance with no one inside them because players aren't inside them to influence more calculations... So that's the bigger issue if you want me to get more technical here.

    Despite this, I only gave the example I gave to overcome the "failed skill" complaint by making newer ones available. Chaining skills or earning new skills is nothing new honestly lol. Though, regardless, some people still seem to be forgetting they have other skills to utilize in assisting whatever it is that needs to be done anyways. However, I'm still very much for just limiting the number of AoE's that can affect a player by default because you should not need 25 or 50 x AoEs to kill/support a player. And because I think that would be the most simple fix. However, if @Anet wanted to get more technical with that, they could. There should be enough other/different skills to do that job available to you. If you don't... Something isn't right; whether it be learning to play or balance.

    What are you not understanding? Do you not realize that every function and timer and effect and rule... has to be tracked by the game and that info has to be processed in real time. There is already enough lag in zerg fights, but now you want to add more items for the servers to process in real time and on players...

    I already explain it in your previous thread, but you obviously don’t pay attention and keep pushing on with non-starter ideas that don’t address problems, they only create more and aren’t realistic.

    Here, start reading and learn something... https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/81486/ideas-aoe-management-aoe-degeneration-methods

  • Whiteout.1975Whiteout.1975 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 9, 2019

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Whiteout.1975 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Whiteout.1975 said:
    I just wanted to add something. I'm not saying to or not to do this... OR that this would be a complete fix, but to consider...

    What about throwing a default timer on how many (passive) AoEs you can throw down every few seconds? Like can you build up magical charges (you can see visually) that cause you to overload until that timer dies down some or back to zero. And say the cap is 3 charges max maybe per player.

    • Then you can get get very specific with this if you want. Like say we go by radius's for instance... If you have "3" 180 radius passive AoEs. Then that can earn you 1 magicial overload charge. "3" active 240 radius's, by you, can give you 1 magical overload charge too and so on.

    • Then to compensate... If you're on a class with more AoEs on your build especially. The overload can cause secondary skills (non-passive AoEs) (similar to when you get stealth on thief and can preform sneak attacks or chaining skills in general, but done through magical overloads) to become available in place of all the passive AoEs you can't use for a short time until you can use those AoEs again... And again every time you overload. Separate cool downs for these new limited time skills too of course.

    This will not fix the short term initial point of laying AoEs. However, this should at least slow down the long term rate AoE's can be applied overall and actually force people to focus targets better to make fight's more interesting. While still having access to their skills overall, done in the form of a "trade off" if overloaded. Which, should also pretty much kill the "failed skill" complaint because you would just get a new one anyways to compensate. A new skill that enforces the point of overload's existing of course; meaning the skill will at least not be a "passive AoE", but more instant rather than long term.

    Lastly, I just want to also say (in a general sense) that 1 strict idea from nearly anyone might not be the full on answer, but rather a piece of the actual answer in the long run. So please consider that too for people in general :)

    Yes, let’s add more rules the servers need to process in real time, add more lag, annoy more players and not address the real issues.

    I wonder sometimes if people really try to think ideas through to conclusion.

    Somehow I knew you couldn't resist lol... Very well. You say the same thing over and over... And over. Which, seems like some sorta cover up to avoid a more in depth explanation (assuming you have one). So... If you'd be so kind. Please explain how "rules" that are meant to prevent a theoretically broader/larger set of functions (the set we have now, generally speaking) from happening... Actually "add more lag"?

    FYI... Spamming passive AoEs to the extent it can be done is a real issue. Which is why we are here discussing it :) Why it's a problem isn't only because of "lag", but creates a sorta mindless sense of gameplay feel when there are "too many AoEs". It's how many AoE's that can affect a player, each player, at a time. I could care less if I saw say... 50 AoEs in the distance with no one inside them because players aren't inside them to influence more calculations... So that's the bigger issue if you want me to get more technical here.

    Despite this, I only gave the example I gave to overcome the "failed skill" complaint by making newer ones available. Chaining skills or earning new skills is nothing new honestly lol. Though, regardless, some people still seem to be forgetting they have other skills to utilize in assisting whatever it is that needs to be done anyways. However, I'm still very much for just limiting the number of AoE's that can affect a player by default because you should not need 25 or 50 x AoEs to kill/support a player. And because I think that would be the most simple fix. However, if @Anet wanted to get more technical with that, they could. There should be enough other/different skills to do that job available to you. If you don't... Something isn't right; whether it be learning to play or balance.

    What are you not understanding? Do you not realize that every function and timer and effect and rule... has to be tracked by the game and that info has to be processed in real time. There is already enough lag in zerg fights, but now you want to add more items for the servers to process in real time and on players...

    I get it. The idea I gave space's skills/events out so that you arn't getting overload of information past maybe the very initial point of a fight. Which, is why I said I'm still for the other original idea and said I'm not for or against this one to begin with.

    • @Whiteout.1975 said: "I'm not saying to or not to do this... OR that this would be a complete fix, but to consider..."

    I already explain it in your previous thread, but you obviously don’t pay attention and keep pushing on with non-starter ideas that don’t address problems, they only create more and aren’t realistic.

    Here, start reading and learn something... https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/81486/ideas-aoe-management-aoe-degeneration-methods

    That's a entirely separate idea vs this one dude lol. Would you like me to link your's with your due criticisms as well?... Nvm, not even gonna go there.

    • The point I'm making here is that it is possible to have a smaller set of rules that prevent a larger set from happening. Do you understand?

    Just limit the number of passive AoEs that can affect a player by default for starters and that should go a long way considering we have tons of other skills avaible to us. I never give a number here, but you should be able to go fairly high enough... Like 15 maybe before the cutoff happens.

    "You can't have quality population balance without quality participation." 🤯

    ~ Me

  • @Chaba.5410 said:
    OK so you want to replace pulsing AoEs that get replastered in a small area with pulsing AoEs that get replastered in a wider area because of your target cap making it more difficult to find and move to AoE-free space? You're sort of not addressing what I said in my last post.

    you're failing to realize that sustain could play more of a role in blob fights instead of most of the lopsided encounters wvw is prone to dish out.

  • @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    ok, with this change, you know what happened?

    Every aoe class besides necros would be flamed of the maps. Because shades&marks are still so much more 'useful' than anything else. The result? 10fb/2scrapper/38 necro blobs AND NOTHING ELSE.

    This idea is so bad, it is hard to describe, the more I think about it, the more bad moments this would create would pop up (oh no, no heals, because the scourges popped a mark to many for example).

    ugh. getting tired of repeating myself. why do you think there would be no heal scenarios? did you even read the op? are you referring to any specific skills?

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