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The Whole Raid Meta Consists of 2 Classes

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  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Granted the common patern on how thing goes when a profession tend to take over most if not all dps spots on boss with specific scenario, both the mesmer and the guardian will probably enter a round of nerf for PvE (whether it's justified or not). After all that's what happened to the elementalists that had great advantage on large target due to "impact" skills and to the necromancer on targets with adds due to epidemic.

    I don't see why players would protest about hypothetic nerfs to the mesmer and guardian when all the arguments justifying such nerfs have already been written when the community thought it was necessary to nerf the necromancer's skill epidemic.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Granted the common patern on how thing goes when a profession tend to take over most if not all dps spots on boss with specific scenario, both the mesmer and the guardian will probably enter a round of nerf for PvE (whether it's justified or not). After all that's what happened to the elementalists that had great advantage on large target due to "impact" skills and to the necromancer on targets with adds due to epidemic.

    I don't see why players would protest about hypothetic nerfs to the mesmer and guardian when all the arguments justifying such nerfs have already been written when the community thought it was necessary to nerf the necromancer's skill epidemic.

    That was necro though. The majority of the raiding community wants necro to be always last dps. Just remember, necro stacking is bad even when only statics did it. Guardian/mesmer stacking is fine though since.. well because only statics do it so yeah, double standards.
    Dragonhunter or firebrand have even super high dps on their own and dont need to rely on fmw to be relevant. Power chrono just needs danger time to work with another condition instead of slow and it would be great even without timewarp. Feel my wrath just needs a heavy nerf but i have no idea how timewarp could be changed. You dont even need any! additional boon duration on fb to apply perma quickness in fractals. You can even go with only dh on some bosses thanks to moa stance and power creeped <15sec phases. But sure dh is fine. Quickness fb outdamages multiple dps specs in fractals btw like holo or thief.

  • Nepster.4275Nepster.4275 Member ✭✭✭

    I dont see the reason why people are angry about this, I mean, the always whining part of community was crying to do something with FB because its only god tier in PvP/WvW, now FB is that strong that no other class can compete, also the same kind of people were crying that OMG weaver is too hard and I dont have time to learn etc... So ANet buffed the second most tankiest DPS class to its limits so now DPSing is even more braindead.
    So i guess congrats to everyone who tought chaos chrono is OP

  • @Nepster.4275 said:
    I dont see the reason why people are angry about this, I mean, the always whining part of community was crying to do something with FB because its only god tier in PvP/WvW, now FB is that strong that no other class can compete, also the same kind of people were crying that OMG weaver is too hard and I dont have time to learn etc... So ANet buffed the second most tankiest DPS class to its limits so now DPSing is even more braindead.
    So i guess congrats to everyone who tought chaos chrono is OP

    I dont think those are the same people.
    People arent "crying" because firebrand is strong. People are "crying" because you dont need a dedicated support for perma quickness. This is not a Firebrand Problem. This is a problem with Feel my Wrath and to some extent timewarp.

  • Nepster.4275Nepster.4275 Member ✭✭✭

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @Nepster.4275 said:
    I dont see the reason why people are angry about this, I mean, the always whining part of community was crying to do something with FB because its only god tier in PvP/WvW, now FB is that strong that no other class can compete, also the same kind of people were crying that OMG weaver is too hard and I dont have time to learn etc... So ANet buffed the second most tankiest DPS class to its limits so now DPSing is even more braindead.
    So i guess congrats to everyone who tought chaos chrono is OP

    I dont think those are the same people.
    People arent "crying" because firebrand is strong. People are "crying" because you dont need a dedicated support for perma quickness. This is not a Firebrand Problem. This is a problem with Feel my Wrath and to some extent timewarp.

    So you think the only problem is FMW? Not the thing that firebrand is basically doing more DPS and supporting(not with only quickness) than most of the "dedicated" DPS classes like holo or thief as said above? And also, I said people WERE crying when fb wasnt like now.But i think you are right about that its not a firebrand problem, its a guardian problem, since that one class cover all(minus alac) the endgame roles as either DH or FB. Sadly I can not recall any class being able to do the same as guardian can now in the past 2 years. And am not crying about this, its a fact that guardian is broken to its core, but atleast i dont need more than one class for raids and fractals.

  • @Nepster.4275 said:

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @Nepster.4275 said:
    I dont see the reason why people are angry about this, I mean, the always whining part of community was crying to do something with FB because its only god tier in PvP/WvW, now FB is that strong that no other class can compete, also the same kind of people were crying that OMG weaver is too hard and I dont have time to learn etc... So ANet buffed the second most tankiest DPS class to its limits so now DPSing is even more braindead.
    So i guess congrats to everyone who tought chaos chrono is OP

    I dont think those are the same people.
    People arent "crying" because firebrand is strong. People are "crying" because you dont need a dedicated support for perma quickness. This is not a Firebrand Problem. This is a problem with Feel my Wrath and to some extent timewarp.

    So you think the only problem is FMW? Not the thing that firebrand is basically doing more DPS and supporting(not with only quickness) than most of the "dedicated" DPS classes like holo or thief as said above? And also, I said people WERE crying when fb wasnt like now.But i think you are right about that its not a firebrand problem, its a guardian problem, since that one class cover all(minus alac) the endgame roles as either DH or FB. Sadly I can not recall any class being able to do the same as guardian can now in the past 2 years. And am not crying about this, its a fact that guardian is broken to its core, but atleast i dont need more than one class for raids and fractals.

    Fun fact: firebrand was actually even stronger support before, but they've nerfed it for WvW reasons. People just were too obsessed with chrono to notice it and here we are, chrono nerfed a LOT and firebrand still being ridiculously good support.

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 20, 2019

    Just wait till they allow thieves to steal Detonate Plasma off of all raid bosses and then combine that change with a Daredevil DPS buff because reasons.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • chiri.9087chiri.9087 Member ✭✭
    edited May 7, 2020

    ΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞ

    .

  • Bassdeff.1895Bassdeff.1895 Member ✭✭✭

    The thing is you don't need to run meta. Our guild runs raids with all classes and squad composition changes all the time depending on who is online. The main thing is knowing your classes and running a proper raid build (which doesn't have to be meta either). We'd rather have a less than optimal composition made of people that play their class well than forcing people to play a class they aren't proficient at to fit into some meta. Players who are more comfortable with their build are less likely to get hit by mechanics that can wipe the group.

  • @Bassdeff.1895 said:
    The thing is you don't need to run meta. Our guild runs raids with all classes and squad composition changes all the time depending on who is online. The main thing is knowing your classes and running a proper raid build (which doesn't have to be meta either). We'd rather have a less than optimal composition made of people that play their class well than forcing people to play a class they aren't proficient at to fit into some meta. Players who are more comfortable with their build are less likely to get hit by mechanics that can wipe the group.

    Maybe, but it is sad if your squadmates can play all classes and they still "have to" use only 2

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 10, 2019

    @Nepster.4275 said:

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @Nepster.4275 said:
    I dont see the reason why people are angry about this, I mean, the always whining part of community was crying to do something with FB because its only god tier in PvP/WvW, now FB is that strong that no other class can compete, also the same kind of people were crying that OMG weaver is too hard and I dont have time to learn etc... So ANet buffed the second most tankiest DPS class to its limits so now DPSing is even more braindead.
    So i guess congrats to everyone who tought chaos chrono is OP

    I dont think those are the same people.
    People arent "crying" because firebrand is strong. People are "crying" because you dont need a dedicated support for perma quickness. This is not a Firebrand Problem. This is a problem with Feel my Wrath and to some extent timewarp.

    So you think the only problem is FMW? Not the thing that firebrand is basically doing more DPS and supporting(not with only quickness) than most of the "dedicated" DPS classes like holo or thief as said above? And also, I said people WERE crying when fb wasnt like now.But i think you are right about that its not a firebrand problem, its a guardian problem, since that one class cover all(minus alac) the endgame roles as either DH or FB. Sadly I can not recall any class being able to do the same as guardian can now in the past 2 years. And am not crying about this, its a fact that guardian is broken to its core, but atleast i dont need more than one class for raids and fractals.

    While I agree Quickbrand's DPS is on the high end (especially cQB), if it out dps's your dedicated DPS players, then they are playing badly.
    Holo especially should be about 10-15k DPS ahead of Quickbrand, as it's actually quite competitive with even a full DPS DH, way ahead of Quickbrand, especially Power QB, as run in Fractals.

    Same for Thief really, although it's not as welcome in Fractals in general.

    That said, I personally see Guardian more as the gold standard of balance and variety of roles that the balance team should aim to reach with other classes, rather than it being squashed on Guard.

    But clearly the issue with these stacking comps is mainly access to quickness and the ability to provide it without dedicated support, which is hard to fix without destroying the Quickness functionality altogether. If you nerf access to Quickness, it just means you need to stack more of the few classes that can provide it, even with BD, leading to more Guards and Mesmers being stacked.
    An alternative could be giving more classes some personal Quickness access akin to power Reaper and Soulbeast etc., as to not require a support to provide 100% uptime, which in turn could make room to nerf some of these group Quickness providers without making them ineffective altogether.

    Just like with the Epimancer stacking I'm afraid of overnerfs here as well though. If they just nerf the base duration of quickness of FMW by 50%, they are just deleting that skill/strategy, even though 95%+ of players aren't even using it, and it's completely fine and actually easier to just run a dedicated support providing Quickness, with everyone else being able to play any DPS they want to.
    I just don't see whatever a few top guilds like SC do as a problem.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • I think that easiest fix is diferent scaling with BD. Also quickness chrono is at 22-23k dps. Almost the same as power quickbrand (23k). While providing boons to other subsquad too. Hybrids like tjose 2 are not a problem. Problems are dps classes that provide permanent boins with almost no losses like fmw stacking.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 10, 2019

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    I think that easiest fix is diferent scaling with BD. Also quickness chrono is at 22-23k dps. Almost the same as power quickbrand (23k). While providing boons to other subsquad too. Hybrids like tjose 2 are not a problem. Problems are dps classes that provide permanent boins with almost no losses like fmw stacking.

    Sure, but they don't do so on their own, they do so by stacking. If you nerf the source of the Quickness they stack, you also nerf the capability of a single hybrid or dedicated support to provide that Boon.

    How would that scale differently with BD? How would the game know if you are playing a otherwise full dps cFB with FMW, a condi Quickbrand with FMW or full support FB with FMW?
    BD only scales with base duration, so the lower the base quickness duration, the worse it scales with BD. The higher the base duration, the better it scales with BD on a dedicated support, but at the same time, the easier it is to cover without any BD at all by just stacking full DPS's with the skill.

    If you nerf FMW, sure you may remove the viability of stacking full DPS DH's or FB's running it to provide quickness, which is only done in extremely niche groups and imo not necessary, but at the same time that may then require actually running more Guards or Mesmers on top of a Quickbrand or Quickness chrono to substitute that loss, actually making those professions more stacked for the vast majority of groups, achieving the opposite of what people are complaining about here.

    So either we are fine with those niche groups stacking these professions, or these Quickness sources on these professions would have to be nerfed and substituted by (preferably personal) Quickness on most other professions, to prevent those few group Quickness sources from being stacked even more, this time even more so across the game.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Quickness and Alacrity are godly boons and are more important than any other boon at the moment in the PvE endgame. You can indeed change a lot of skills that supply it and/or add it to many other professions to make it more balanced, or you can apply an imo easy fix:
    Quickness: increases attack and action speeds by 33% (instead of 50%). (PvE only)
    Alacrity: increases the rate at which skills recharge by 15% (instead of 25%). (PvE only)

  • @Asum.4960 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    I think that easiest fix is diferent scaling with BD. Also quickness chrono is at 22-23k dps. Almost the same as power quickbrand (23k). While providing boons to other subsquad too. Hybrids like tjose 2 are not a problem. Problems are dps classes that provide permanent boins with almost no losses like fmw stacking.

    Sure, but they don't do so on their own, they do so by stacking. If you nerf the source of the Quickness they stack, you also nerf the capability of a single hybrid or dedicated support to provide that Boon.

    How would that scale differently with BD? How would the game know if you are playing a otherwise full dps cFB with FMW, a condi Quickbrand with FMW or full support FB with FMW?
    BD only scales with base duration, so the lower the base quickness duration, the worse it scales with BD. The higher the base duration, the better it scales with BD on a dedicated support, but at the same time, the easier it is to cover without any BD at all by just stacking full DPS's with the skill.

    If you nerf FMW, sure you may remove the viability of stacking full DPS DH's or FB's running it to provide quickness, which is only done in extremely niche groups and imo not necessary, but at the same time that may then require actually running more Guards or Mesmers on top of a Quickbrand or Quickness chrono to substitute that loss, actually making those professions more stacked for the vast majority of groups, achieving the opposite of what people are complaining about here.

    So either we are fine with those niche groups stacking these professions, or these Quickness sources on these professions would have to be nerfed and substituted by (preferably personal) Quickness on most other professions, to prevent those few group Quickness sources from being stacked even more, this time even more so across the game.

    Diferent scaling means that each 1 percent BD increse the duration of quickness from fmw by 2 percent. That way it can be more efective if you have higher BD and less efective if you have none.

    If you nerf fmw and buff quickness traits on firebrand, nothing will change for firebrand but DH stacking will be gone because there arent spots left for more DHs in squad.

    And I know that FB stacking would stay but that is good only on few fights (sabetha comes to mind) and that isnt a problem. DH stacking on 70% of bosses is.

  • reikken.4961reikken.4961 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 11, 2019

    @ first post:
    ranger. ranger is in every comp
    in fact it is the ONLY class that is in every comp

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @reikken.4961 said:
    @ first post:
    ranger. ranger is in every comp
    in fact it is the ONLY class that is in every comp

    Warrior is in every squad comp aswell.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @reikken.4961 said:
    @ first post:
    ranger. ranger is in every comp
    in fact it is the ONLY class that is in every comp

    Warrior is in every squad comp aswell.

    Nah normaly you dont take them at twins you still take rangers tho.

  • Alyster.9470Alyster.9470 Member ✭✭✭

    @Reikou.7068 @""sokeenoppa.5384"
    My discussion is about pure dps classes, there is no comp that stacks 6-7 warriors or rangers

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @reikken.4961 said:
    @ first post:
    ranger. ranger is in every comp
    in fact it is the ONLY class that is in every comp

    Warrior is in every squad comp aswell.

    Nah normaly you dont take them at twins you still take rangers tho.

    Even SC takes warrior for twins tho..

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • vermouth.3478vermouth.3478 Member ✭✭
    edited December 11, 2019

    _Bring back the staff weaver stacking and scourge epi stacking _

  • tim.4596tim.4596 Member ✭✭✭

    I would be careful not to confuse single class and team comp, what you see on Snow Crows website are the strongest teamcomp to defeat bosses, and all there is to it really is to reduce boon duration so that you can play a full dps comp. However those are not the classes doing the most dps on those bosses with the exception of Guardian/DH/FB who would actually really need a nerf as it's completely overpowered atm. I'm fine with firebrigade memes, but when the Firebrand is able to pull out more than 25k target dps on some specific bosses that's way too high, there is no way that boon chrono is able to do that almost except on short fights.

  • @tim.4596 said:
    I would be careful not to confuse single class and team comp, what you see on Snow Crows website are the strongest teamcomp to defeat bosses, and all there is to it really is to reduce boon duration so that you can play a full dps comp. However those are not the classes doing the most dps on those bosses with the exception of Guardian/DH/FB who would actually really need a nerf as it's completely overpowered atm. I'm fine with firebrigade memes, but when the Firebrand is able to pull out more than 25k target dps on some specific bosses that's way too high, there is no way that boon chrono is able to do that almost except on short fights.

    Those 2 classes are recomended basicaly on 75% of fights. The combination of high dps, heal skill that let them ignore mechanics, utility (mostly firebrand case) and option to give quickness for minor dps loss is why they are too strong atm.

  • Well I said that a few weeks prior to the thread start the whole game is dominated by heavy classes so I called that 'heavy metal meta'. This came because people complained constantly about the high risk high gain builds aka staff ele and about Druid and Chrono ... DHs dps isn't that crazy good but that you can give a bit of quickness even as DH and your are not downed so easy like an Swordweaver also DH don't need the 100% uptime of quickness and alac so much which the Swordweaver needs.

    You talked about raids but well in fractals its the same FB, 2xDH, BS(warrior),Renegade. Reaper as DPS are used also often in CMS and some staff Deardevil after that comes Swordweaver and then Holo the rest you never see.

    One point of Warrior , DH and Reaper is also they have close proximity aoes(and Reaper also bigger/farer) which have a instead dps rampage comparing this with staff Weaver even with higher dps output again the build can't compete staff Weavers burst takes 2-3 s to build up through its nature of spell damage those other builds have the max burst dmg after 0-1 sec. Okay this is very specific but you have this situation often in the old fractals where a limited number of minions close are around you.

    The other problematic thing is because Berserker Warriors DPS got so high some refuse to do the ball at the sec boss in 100cm which means rev has to do that and that means little alac up time for the other DPS builds....

    The only place I know where the meta swaps is in sirens reef last boss staff weaver is actually better here then all the mentioned classes except Reaper, equal it is in 'Not Categorized' stacking at the console at the first encounter. (- thief and swordweaver).

    Because someone mentioned it swordweaver isn't that hard okay those 37k dps are hard to get to but 33-34k on the golem is doable problematic is that the FB needs to do his/her job perfectly because I'm going melee a lot of FB saving their boons too much giving ageis, protection and stabi on major mechanics is needed. Yes I started to play swordweaver recently after the 'I can swap my weapons' I felt forced to start playing it. In summary : I love the dps but I hate the build itself sword is the least mage like from all the weapons ele has and you have a lot of suicide skills with this build

    Viewed on core in wvw all those mentioned classes comes up again in wvw as zerg builds but now : FB, Herold, Scourge, Scrapper, Spellbreaker , less but also Heal Tempest and Staff Weaver and some who use the newer meta also Renegade.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:
    You talked about raids but well in fractals its the same FB, 2xDH, BS(warrior),Renegade. Reaper as DPS are used also often in CMS and some staff Deardevil after that comes Swordweaver and then Holo the rest you never see.

    Meta in cms is actually fb, slb, weaver, warr + ren. Holo is trash in instanced pve unless you like the music exploit. It brings nothing to the group except mediocre dps. 4dh +ren or fb + 2dh, warr, ren are also really good in fractals. Again guard stacking.

    The other problematic thing is because Berserker Warriors DPS got so high some refuse to do the ball at the sec boss in 100cm which means rev has to do that and that means little alac up time for the other DPS builds....

    DH suffers as much as weaver from low alac. Ren usually shares once in middle and once before first ball so uptime should be ok unless dps is super low. You can also just skip the ball with high dps.

    The only place I know where the meta swaps is in sirens reef last boss staff weaver is actually better here then all the mentioned classes except Reaper, equal it is in 'Not Categorized' stacking at the console at the first encounter. (- thief and swordweaver).

    Not really. Boss has a small hitbox so staff weaver does no dmg. Condi fb is the most broken spec here. Insane cleave and reflects for days on top. Weaver and dh have so high dmg that its usually enough though.

    Currently, well for almost the entire last year guardian is just beyond broken in pve. It has top level burst, support, cleave, sustain and sustained dps. On condi and power builds. I mean they even buffed sword recently god knows why.
    How to balance guard in fractals. Cut dps by 7-10%. Remove signet share. Cut quickness base durations by like 30% total so guards need boon duration on gear for perma quickness. Fix dh traps, the only traps which dont disappear when you swap the utility after placing them. Nerf feel my wrath HARD. Some encounters are done without a fb at all and just a dh with feel my wrath thanks to 66% boon duration from moa stance.
    Feel my wrath is 80% of timewarp while it has 25% of its cd. Its even way stronger than tw because of how boon stacks work. Changing fmw to short pulsing quickness would already help a lot.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 17, 2019

    @Asum.4960 said:
    That said, I personally see Guardian more as the gold standard of balance and variety of roles that the balance team should aim to reach with other classes, rather than it being squashed on Guard.

    A good standard of balance includes weaknesses, guardian has none to maybe one. Dh dps is bad when you can't go inside a hitbox but there is still fb to use. Top level support + top level dps shouldnt be the balance goal.
    Reaper for example can't be played at all in high pressure fights thanks to garbage shroud mechanic. Guardian is just overloaded. Btw on adina dh stack is optimal without even bringing any quickness. Guard is strong even as full dps but you get the best heal ingame + groupwide blocks + heal without any dps loss. Fb can even give stab without losing a single slot. Meanwhile engi and necro have lower damage and bring nothing.

  • @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:
    You talked about raids but well in fractals its the same FB, 2xDH, BS(warrior),Renegade. Reaper as DPS are used also often in CMS and some staff Deardevil after that comes Swordweaver and then Holo the rest you never see.

    Meta in cms is actually fb, slb, weaver, warr + ren. Holo is trash in instanced pve unless you like the music exploit. It brings nothing to the group except mediocre dps. 4dh +ren or fb + 2dh, warr, ren are also really good in fractals. Again guard stacking.

    The other problematic thing is because Berserker Warriors DPS got so high some refuse to do the ball at the sec boss in 100cm which means rev has to do that and that means little alac up time for the other DPS builds....

    DH suffers as much as weaver from low alac. Ren usually shares once in middle and once before first ball so uptime should be ok unless dps is super low. You can also just skip the ball with high dps.

    The only place I know where the meta swaps is in sirens reef last boss staff weaver is actually better here then all the mentioned classes except Reaper, equal it is in 'Not Categorized' stacking at the console at the first encounter. (- thief and swordweaver).

    Not really. **Boss has a small hitbox so staff weaver does no dmg. **Condi fb is the most broken spec here. Insane cleave and reflects for days on top. Weaver and dh have so high dmg that its usually enough though.

    Currently, well for almost the entire last year guardian is just beyond broken in pve. It has top level burst, support, cleave, sustain and sustained dps. On condi and power builds. I mean they even buffed sword recently god knows why.
    How to balance guard in fractals. Cut dps by 7-10%. Remove signet share. Cut quickness base durations by like 30% total so guards need boon duration on gear for perma quickness. Fix dh traps, the only traps which dont disappear when you swap the utility after placing them. Nerf feel my wrath HARD. Some encounters are done without a fb at all and just a dh with feel my wrath thanks to 66% boon duration from moa stance.
    Feel my wrath is 80% of timewarp while it has 25% of its cd. Its even way stronger than tw because of how boon stacks work. Changing fmw to short pulsing quickness would already help a lot.

    Well I run staff in Sirens Reef and doing nearly 50% of the damage of my team on multiply occasion. The reason for this is I'm killing the trash mobs with MS which otherwise would overrun us. Doing less dmg on the boss isn't a bad thing here because the trash mops spawning every 1.5%? HP of the boss or so. The mechanics and the trash mops are the danger on this boss not the boss itself because of this having big aoes helps a lot in this fractals. It basically an anti-meta the root of this is in this MMO unlike many I played before trash mops can be ignored especially in fractals try that in a other MMO and the trash mops hunt you to the end of the dungeon and will kill you. The whole meta is build on the idea there isn't a lot of trash mobs and if there you can ignore them.(or take as much time as you like)

    In the theory you can do it like you said but its takes a lot of dmg and the boss moves 3 x times .. in this time the trash mobs can spawn soyou have to be really good for this.

    About the Guard I can mostly agree but the total quickness duration I don't see as heal FB so high ?

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 20, 2019

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:
    Well I run staff in Sirens Reef and doing nearly 50% of the damage of my team on multiply occasion. The reason for this is I'm killing the trash mobs with MS which otherwise would overrun us. Doing less dmg on the boss isn't a bad thing here because the trash mops spawning every 1.5%? HP of the boss or so. The mechanics and the trash mops are the danger on this boss not the boss itself because of this having big aoes helps a lot in this fractals. It basically an anti-meta the root of this is in this MMO unlike many I played before trash mops can be ignored especially in fractals try that in a other MMO and the trash mops hunt you to the end of the dungeon and will kill you. The whole meta is build on the idea there isn't a lot of trash mobs and if there you can ignore them.(or take as much time as you like)

    The trash attacks only with projectiles except for the quarter master who move up to you. This means that you take 0 dmg if reflect is up and cfb has more than 50% reflect uptime. Renegade can also resistance share to make everyone immune to conditions. The boss just dies in seconds to the average cm group especially if you have some of those balanced dhs who could even swap to firebrand to make it even more faceroll.

    In the theory you can do it like you said but its takes a lot of dmg and the boss moves 3 x times .. in this time the trash mobs can spawn soyou have to be really good for this.

    Knowing how to burst doesnt mean very good. The skill difference is just really big because of bad stats/builds dps difference can be a few 100%. This doesn't happen in other mmos since wow for example removed talent trees and it has personal loot so useless builds are impossible. The builds there are just suboptimal but nowhere near as useless as what people play in the normal t4 groups. Rotation in gw2 are also not hard but can make a 50%+ difference easily.
    As soon as everyone knows how to dps stuff just dies in seconds. Some bosses even have below 3sec phases. And this isnt even hard to accomplish with dhs since they have insane burst and are super safe to play.

    About the Guard I can mostly agree but the total quickness duration I don't see as heal FB so high ?

    Heal fb doesnt even need to take all quickness skills for perma with just like 60-70% boon duration. Thats how broken it is. This frees a support slot for stability or in power quickness fb's case allows it to not take any boon duration at all because he takes all quickness skills and the duration from potions is enough. And this allows the team to run NO quickness support on some cm bosses. A single dh with fmw and moa stance is enough. That dh will also outdamage DD, holos, reapers and so on while providing perma quickness and he even buffs the entire party with 218power.

  • @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    ... Some classes are also heavily skewed by either being so complicated to play that only very good players use them (like condiweeber)

    This seems to be a stigma (fueled by SC even) that will probably NEVER go away, but this is actually a false statement! From those same statistics, you can see that Condi Weaver differences between the 50th percentile (the casuals) and 99th/90th percentile (the pro's/veterans), is actually quite close to each other (compared to other classes that mostly are widely known as "easy to play"). This indicates by statistics that Condi Weaver DPS is not that difficult to pull off. And if you play it yourself, you will probably know this as well, cause the condi rotation, though complex is also quite forgiving. The punishment isn't that huge when you miss a beat (or are delayed), compared to other classes. But still, don't take it from me, I'm just one player with an opinion, take it from real statistics, and so should ANet!

    Sorry for being a bit offtopic here and grabbing back to an ages old post. But to relate it back to the topic at hand, it still says something about the balance in the PvE endgame which is imo still not that great (while better than ever, but hey), and though I understand the focus from the balance team on WvW and PvP currently, I really think the PvE endgame should receive some love as well in the balancing area!

  • @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    ... Some classes are also heavily skewed by either being so complicated to play that only very good players use them (like condiweeber)

    This seems to be a stigma (fueled by SC even) that will probably NEVER go away, but this is actually a false statement! From those same statistics, you can see that Condi Weaver differences between the 50th percentile (the casuals) and 99th/90th percentile (the pro's/veterans), is actually quite close to each other (compared to other classes that mostly are widely known as "easy to play"). This indicates by statistics that Condi Weaver DPS is not that difficult to pull off. And if you play it yourself, you will probably know this as well, cause the condi rotation, though complex is also quite forgiving. The punishment isn't that huge when you miss a beat (or are delayed), compared to other classes. But still, don't take it from me, I'm just one player with an opinion, take it from real statistics, and so should ANet!

    Sorry for being a bit offtopic here and grabbing back to an ages old post. But to relate it back to the topic at hand, it still says something about the balance in the PvE endgame which is imo still not that great (while better than ever, but hey), and though I understand the focus from the balance team on WvW and PvP currently, I really think the PvE endgame should receive some love as well in the balancing area!

    Kitty didn't mean that the data would be skewed within the profession itself but profession vs other professions.

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    "meta" as in "what snowcrows lists as an optimal squad composition"?
    It actually doesn't matter at all -just because certain builds have an edge in raids under perfect circumstances doesn't change the fact that all of those raids can be EASLY done with other class/build compositions. It's not a competitive mode, the "meta" doesn't matter until everyone in the game is stupid enough to actually demand snowcrow squad comps from general playerbase. Which isn't the case and has no reason to be the case. So... who cares.

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    "meta" as in "what snowcrows lists as an optimal squad composition"?
    It actually doesn't matter at all -just because certain builds have an edge in raids under perfect circumstances doesn't change the fact that all of those raids can be EASLY done with other class/build compositions. It's not a competitive mode, the "meta" doesn't matter until everyone in the game is stupid enough to actually demand snowcrow squad comps from general playerbase. Which isn't the case and has no reason to be the case. So... who cares.

    Do u even raid? Lot of bosses are about stacking dh or mirage, but they fit perfectly even if u dont stack em.

    make prepardness baseline plz

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Safandula.8723 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    "meta" as in "what snowcrows lists as an optimal squad composition"?
    It actually doesn't matter at all -just because certain builds have an edge in raids under perfect circumstances doesn't change the fact that all of those raids can be EASLY done with other class/build compositions. It's not a competitive mode, the "meta" doesn't matter until everyone in the game is stupid enough to actually demand snowcrow squad comps from general playerbase. Which isn't the case and has no reason to be the case. So... who cares.

    Do u even raid? Lot of bosses are about stacking dh or mirage, but they fit perfectly even if u dont stack em.

    Did you understand what I wrote?

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 22, 2019

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Safandula.8723 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    "meta" as in "what snowcrows lists as an optimal squad composition"?
    It actually doesn't matter at all -just because certain builds have an edge in raids under perfect circumstances doesn't change the fact that all of those raids can be EASLY done with other class/build compositions. It's not a competitive mode, the "meta" doesn't matter until everyone in the game is stupid enough to actually demand snowcrow squad comps from general playerbase. Which isn't the case and has no reason to be the case. So... who cares.

    Do u even raid? Lot of bosses are about stacking dh or mirage, but they fit perfectly even if u dont stack em.

    Did you understand what I wrote?

    Yea that, comps mentioned by SC , are not Going to always work in pug groups. But u didnt understand, that even if u play those classes, and ur party wont be playing that good, u Will still perform decently.
    Thats the Main issue about guards and mesmers

    make prepardness baseline plz

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 22, 2019

    @Safandula.8723 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Safandula.8723 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    "meta" as in "what snowcrows lists as an optimal squad composition"?
    It actually doesn't matter at all -just because certain builds have an edge in raids under perfect circumstances doesn't change the fact that all of those raids can be EASLY done with other class/build compositions. It's not a competitive mode, the "meta" doesn't matter until everyone in the game is stupid enough to actually demand snowcrow squad comps from general playerbase. Which isn't the case and has no reason to be the case. So... who cares.

    Do u even raid? Lot of bosses are about stacking dh or mirage, but they fit perfectly even if u dont stack em.

    Did you understand what I wrote?

    Yea that, comps mentioned by SC , are not Going to always work in pug groups.

    No, that's not what I said.

    But u didnt understand, that even if u play those classes, and ur party wont be playing that good, u Will still perform decently.
    Thats the Main issue about guards and mesmers

    What I said is that SC lists optimal (according to their testing) team comps, which then some people will call "meta". The thing here is that RB per-class-dps doesn't need to be perfectly optimalized, because it's not a competitive mode, but rather a co-op one. The fact that some builds or comps perform slightly better than others doesn't matter, because the line of successfully completing each ride is actually much lower than the perfect run with perfect team comp. From what I see people don't really demand perfect SC-suggested team comps in lfgs and there's no reason for them to do that, because you don't need listed comps to still comfortably/easly succeed in raids. Unless suddenly everyone demands a specific SC-suggested (or, per this thread: "meta") comps, I don't see the problem. It really doesn't matter if you're able to outdps another teamcomp and kill the boss 30 seconds earlier.

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    The fact that some builds or comps perform slightly better

    just checked sc site. every boss except of qadim 1 and 2, is about stacking dh/ condi fb / p chrono / c mirage, with additions of ranger/bs/something else. Its rly not a problem for u, considering these classes still perform decently alone? yea u can have good results with other specs, but its super clear, there is a "little" balance problems in case of "some" classes.
    same in fractals, while meta use bs/weaver/ slb/ fb(dh on fast kills)/ rene, 80% of pugs just use dh becouse of how efficient and safe it is. so seems like dh has top tier burst, as well as sustained dps. oh and party utility and boon generation, on top of how easy it is to play

    make prepardness baseline plz

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 22, 2019

    @Safandula.8723 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    The fact that some builds or comps perform slightly better

    just checked sc site. every boss except of qadim 1 and 2, is about stacking dh/ condi fb / p chrono / c mirage, with additions of ranger/bs/something else.

    Ok, but how does it change in any way what I said?

    Its rly not a problem for u, considering these classes still perform decently alone? yea u can have good results with other specs, but its super clear, there is a "little" balance problems in case of "some" classes.
    same in fractals, while meta use bs/weaver/ slb/ fb(dh on fast kills)/ rene, 80% of pugs just use dh becouse of how efficient and safe it is. so seems like dh has top tier burst, as well as sustained dps. oh and party utility and boon generation, on top of how easy it is to play

    Yup, it's not a problem for me, I'm not playing builds that fit the SC-listed comps and I have no problem with finding pub groups. Why would I be so bent over it? What does it matter that you can kill the boss slightly faster in "x comp"? Unless everyone strictly requires everyone to play the specific team comps "because SC said so", I don't see the issue.

  • @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:
    Quickness and Alacrity are godly boons and are more important than any other boon at the moment in the PvE endgame. You can indeed change a lot of skills that supply it and/or add it to many other professions to make it more balanced, or you can apply an imo easy fix:
    Quickness: increases attack and action speeds by 33% (instead of 50%). (PvE only)
    Alacrity: increases the rate at which skills recharge by 15% (instead of 25%). (PvE only)

    That is not the problem also they nerfed it multiply times every time they nerf it rotas and build get destroyed. The problem lies more in how build vairy in DPS and how the community use that and react to this.

    One site is we have underpowered build in PvE like Holo, Soulbeast, then you have build like S/H Tempest which are good in raids but not in fractals, then you have build which seems only good for PvP/wvw like Scourge and Scrapper then you have build which got completely destroyed like Chrono or Staff Weaver/Tempest.

    From my perspective that build under perform has to a lot do with the minimi against build which have high risk high gain. Which then let the build/class higher perform then the others which then pump them up then on the top of the meta and as healer support is how much you can help increasing the DPS.

    On the other side you have then pushed for build which have high gain and low risk namely DH and Berserker(Warrior) but also for build like Swordweaver which have high gain and an even higher risk, The joke on the last part is people start learning these build and then people start complain again how dominant the build in the meta is with out considering how hard it really is.

    DH&FB has the problem how good the synergy is with itself is and how you can pre stack boons in fractals. Which in itself is a huge problem mentioned in some threads.

    I will give some example on B2 99CM what you can do :

    1.) Sigil of Serpent Slaying +7% dmg
    2. )Powerful Potion of Krait Slaying +10% dmg - 10% incoming dmg
    3.) Fractal God Title +7% dmg
    4.) Fractal Potions :
    The bonus given by each potion is as follows:

    Mist Offensive  - Bonus to precision
    Mist Defensive  - Bonus to toughness
    Mist Mobility - Bonus to concentration
    

    A player with 150 agony resistance and five stacks of a potion will gain 225 of its respective attribute.
    To be clear this allow you to run with berserker gear or not with precision food where SC raid guides say you must. It also reduce the amount of built in boon duration.
    DPS increase alone should be are around 5-7% again
    5.) -10% incoming dmg with ascended food

    Even with these insane modifiers Arena.NET came and said this is not enough NO SIR WE NEED MORE DPS we need so much DPS that even trolls feel trolled xD(black humour) . What we do is we allow the players to rest their skills manually with GG and the mistlock

    6.) Stack boons as FB switch to DH and then reset +~ 1000% dmg or +20% group dmg
    7.) Renegade overstack boons means give the boons out rest do it again and then switch a lot of diviner gear to berserker +~20-30% dmg
    8) Warrior prestack banners rest skills and then go with dps skills +~20% dmg
    9) But there is now a problem the DPS phase on the boss is now even shorter then walk to the mobs/ads in the phases okay sine Arena.NET allowing this lets use the portals generator out of the raids here at least for the first phase.

  • narcx.3570narcx.3570 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Alyster.9470 said:
    -Lastly please DONT nerf condition weaver, we are only like 5 people only who play it :(

    Thank you.

    Condi Weaver bump... It's legit the only class that's even fun to play in raids anymore.