The Whole Raid Meta Consists of 2 Classes - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

The Whole Raid Meta Consists of 2 Classes

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  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Granted the common patern on how thing goes when a profession tend to take over most if not all dps spots on boss with specific scenario, both the mesmer and the guardian will probably enter a round of nerf for PvE (whether it's justified or not). After all that's what happened to the elementalists that had great advantage on large target due to "impact" skills and to the necromancer on targets with adds due to epidemic.

    I don't see why players would protest about hypothetic nerfs to the mesmer and guardian when all the arguments justifying such nerfs have already been written when the community thought it was necessary to nerf the necromancer's skill epidemic.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Granted the common patern on how thing goes when a profession tend to take over most if not all dps spots on boss with specific scenario, both the mesmer and the guardian will probably enter a round of nerf for PvE (whether it's justified or not). After all that's what happened to the elementalists that had great advantage on large target due to "impact" skills and to the necromancer on targets with adds due to epidemic.

    I don't see why players would protest about hypothetic nerfs to the mesmer and guardian when all the arguments justifying such nerfs have already been written when the community thought it was necessary to nerf the necromancer's skill epidemic.

    That was necro though. The majority of the raiding community wants necro to be always last dps. Just remember, necro stacking is bad even when only statics did it. Guardian/mesmer stacking is fine though since.. well because only statics do it so yeah, double standards.
    Dragonhunter or firebrand have even super high dps on their own and dont need to rely on fmw to be relevant. Power chrono just needs danger time to work with another condition instead of slow and it would be great even without timewarp. Feel my wrath just needs a heavy nerf but i have no idea how timewarp could be changed. You dont even need any! additional boon duration on fb to apply perma quickness in fractals. You can even go with only dh on some bosses thanks to moa stance and power creeped <15sec phases. But sure dh is fine. Quickness fb outdamages multiple dps specs in fractals btw like holo or thief.

  • Nepster.4275Nepster.4275 Member ✭✭✭

    I dont see the reason why people are angry about this, I mean, the always whining part of community was crying to do something with FB because its only god tier in PvP/WvW, now FB is that strong that no other class can compete, also the same kind of people were crying that OMG weaver is too hard and I dont have time to learn etc... So ANet buffed the second most tankiest DPS class to its limits so now DPSing is even more braindead.
    So i guess congrats to everyone who tought chaos chrono is OP

  • @Nepster.4275 said:
    I dont see the reason why people are angry about this, I mean, the always whining part of community was crying to do something with FB because its only god tier in PvP/WvW, now FB is that strong that no other class can compete, also the same kind of people were crying that OMG weaver is too hard and I dont have time to learn etc... So ANet buffed the second most tankiest DPS class to its limits so now DPSing is even more braindead.
    So i guess congrats to everyone who tought chaos chrono is OP

    I dont think those are the same people.
    People arent "crying" because firebrand is strong. People are "crying" because you dont need a dedicated support for perma quickness. This is not a Firebrand Problem. This is a problem with Feel my Wrath and to some extent timewarp.

  • Nepster.4275Nepster.4275 Member ✭✭✭

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @Nepster.4275 said:
    I dont see the reason why people are angry about this, I mean, the always whining part of community was crying to do something with FB because its only god tier in PvP/WvW, now FB is that strong that no other class can compete, also the same kind of people were crying that OMG weaver is too hard and I dont have time to learn etc... So ANet buffed the second most tankiest DPS class to its limits so now DPSing is even more braindead.
    So i guess congrats to everyone who tought chaos chrono is OP

    I dont think those are the same people.
    People arent "crying" because firebrand is strong. People are "crying" because you dont need a dedicated support for perma quickness. This is not a Firebrand Problem. This is a problem with Feel my Wrath and to some extent timewarp.

    So you think the only problem is FMW? Not the thing that firebrand is basically doing more DPS and supporting(not with only quickness) than most of the "dedicated" DPS classes like holo or thief as said above? And also, I said people WERE crying when fb wasnt like now.But i think you are right about that its not a firebrand problem, its a guardian problem, since that one class cover all(minus alac) the endgame roles as either DH or FB. Sadly I can not recall any class being able to do the same as guardian can now in the past 2 years. And am not crying about this, its a fact that guardian is broken to its core, but atleast i dont need more than one class for raids and fractals.

  • @Nepster.4275 said:

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @Nepster.4275 said:
    I dont see the reason why people are angry about this, I mean, the always whining part of community was crying to do something with FB because its only god tier in PvP/WvW, now FB is that strong that no other class can compete, also the same kind of people were crying that OMG weaver is too hard and I dont have time to learn etc... So ANet buffed the second most tankiest DPS class to its limits so now DPSing is even more braindead.
    So i guess congrats to everyone who tought chaos chrono is OP

    I dont think those are the same people.
    People arent "crying" because firebrand is strong. People are "crying" because you dont need a dedicated support for perma quickness. This is not a Firebrand Problem. This is a problem with Feel my Wrath and to some extent timewarp.

    So you think the only problem is FMW? Not the thing that firebrand is basically doing more DPS and supporting(not with only quickness) than most of the "dedicated" DPS classes like holo or thief as said above? And also, I said people WERE crying when fb wasnt like now.But i think you are right about that its not a firebrand problem, its a guardian problem, since that one class cover all(minus alac) the endgame roles as either DH or FB. Sadly I can not recall any class being able to do the same as guardian can now in the past 2 years. And am not crying about this, its a fact that guardian is broken to its core, but atleast i dont need more than one class for raids and fractals.

    Fun fact: firebrand was actually even stronger support before, but they've nerfed it for WvW reasons. People just were too obsessed with chrono to notice it and here we are, chrono nerfed a LOT and firebrand still being ridiculously good support.

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks and streams at twitch.tv/ladykittygw2 .

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 20, 2019

    Just wait till they allow thieves to steal Detonate Plasma off of all raid bosses and then combine that change with a Daredevil DPS buff because reasons.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • Remove the ability to grant permanent quickness with stacking DPS chronos/firebrands and the problem is solved without having to kill the dps of the classes.

    best of the best, qtest anime girl in tyria

  • The thing is you don't need to run meta. Our guild runs raids with all classes and squad composition changes all the time depending on who is online. The main thing is knowing your classes and running a proper raid build (which doesn't have to be meta either). We'd rather have a less than optimal composition made of people that play their class well than forcing people to play a class they aren't proficient at to fit into some meta. Players who are more comfortable with their build are less likely to get hit by mechanics that can wipe the group.

  • @Bassdeff.1895 said:
    The thing is you don't need to run meta. Our guild runs raids with all classes and squad composition changes all the time depending on who is online. The main thing is knowing your classes and running a proper raid build (which doesn't have to be meta either). We'd rather have a less than optimal composition made of people that play their class well than forcing people to play a class they aren't proficient at to fit into some meta. Players who are more comfortable with their build are less likely to get hit by mechanics that can wipe the group.

    Maybe, but it is sad if your squadmates can play all classes and they still "have to" use only 2

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 10, 2019

    @Nepster.4275 said:

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @Nepster.4275 said:
    I dont see the reason why people are angry about this, I mean, the always whining part of community was crying to do something with FB because its only god tier in PvP/WvW, now FB is that strong that no other class can compete, also the same kind of people were crying that OMG weaver is too hard and I dont have time to learn etc... So ANet buffed the second most tankiest DPS class to its limits so now DPSing is even more braindead.
    So i guess congrats to everyone who tought chaos chrono is OP

    I dont think those are the same people.
    People arent "crying" because firebrand is strong. People are "crying" because you dont need a dedicated support for perma quickness. This is not a Firebrand Problem. This is a problem with Feel my Wrath and to some extent timewarp.

    So you think the only problem is FMW? Not the thing that firebrand is basically doing more DPS and supporting(not with only quickness) than most of the "dedicated" DPS classes like holo or thief as said above? And also, I said people WERE crying when fb wasnt like now.But i think you are right about that its not a firebrand problem, its a guardian problem, since that one class cover all(minus alac) the endgame roles as either DH or FB. Sadly I can not recall any class being able to do the same as guardian can now in the past 2 years. And am not crying about this, its a fact that guardian is broken to its core, but atleast i dont need more than one class for raids and fractals.

    While I agree Quickbrand's DPS is on the high end (especially cQB), if it out dps's your dedicated DPS players, then they are playing badly.
    Holo especially should be about 10-15k DPS ahead of Quickbrand, as it's actually quite competitive with even a full DPS DH, way ahead of Quickbrand, especially Power QB, as run in Fractals.

    Same for Thief really, although it's not as welcome in Fractals in general.

    That said, I personally see Guardian more as the gold standard of balance and variety of roles that the balance team should aim to reach with other classes, rather than it being squashed on Guard.

    But clearly the issue with these stacking comps is mainly access to quickness and the ability to provide it without dedicated support, which is hard to fix without destroying the Quickness functionality altogether. If you nerf access to Quickness, it just means you need to stack more of the few classes that can provide it, even with BD, leading to more Guards and Mesmers being stacked.
    An alternative could be giving more classes some personal Quickness access akin to power Reaper and Soulbeast etc., as to not require a support to provide 100% uptime, which in turn could make room to nerf some of these group Quickness providers without making them ineffective altogether.

    Just like with the Epimancer stacking I'm afraid of overnerfs here as well though. If they just nerf the base duration of quickness of FMW by 50%, they are just deleting that skill/strategy, even though 95%+ of players aren't even using it, and it's completely fine and actually easier to just run a dedicated support providing Quickness, with everyone else being able to play any DPS they want to.
    I just don't see whatever a few top guilds like SC do as a problem.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • I think that easiest fix is diferent scaling with BD. Also quickness chrono is at 22-23k dps. Almost the same as power quickbrand (23k). While providing boons to other subsquad too. Hybrids like tjose 2 are not a problem. Problems are dps classes that provide permanent boins with almost no losses like fmw stacking.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 10, 2019

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    I think that easiest fix is diferent scaling with BD. Also quickness chrono is at 22-23k dps. Almost the same as power quickbrand (23k). While providing boons to other subsquad too. Hybrids like tjose 2 are not a problem. Problems are dps classes that provide permanent boins with almost no losses like fmw stacking.

    Sure, but they don't do so on their own, they do so by stacking. If you nerf the source of the Quickness they stack, you also nerf the capability of a single hybrid or dedicated support to provide that Boon.

    How would that scale differently with BD? How would the game know if you are playing a otherwise full dps cFB with FMW, a condi Quickbrand with FMW or full support FB with FMW?
    BD only scales with base duration, so the lower the base quickness duration, the worse it scales with BD. The higher the base duration, the better it scales with BD on a dedicated support, but at the same time, the easier it is to cover without any BD at all by just stacking full DPS's with the skill.

    If you nerf FMW, sure you may remove the viability of stacking full DPS DH's or FB's running it to provide quickness, which is only done in extremely niche groups and imo not necessary, but at the same time that may then require actually running more Guards or Mesmers on top of a Quickbrand or Quickness chrono to substitute that loss, actually making those professions more stacked for the vast majority of groups, achieving the opposite of what people are complaining about here.

    So either we are fine with those niche groups stacking these professions, or these Quickness sources on these professions would have to be nerfed and substituted by (preferably personal) Quickness on most other professions, to prevent those few group Quickness sources from being stacked even more, this time even more so across the game.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Quickness and Alacrity are godly boons and are more important than any other boon at the moment in the PvE endgame. You can indeed change a lot of skills that supply it and/or add it to many other professions to make it more balanced, or you can apply an imo easy fix:
    Quickness: increases attack and action speeds by 33% (instead of 50%). (PvE only)
    Alacrity: increases the rate at which skills recharge by 15% (instead of 25%). (PvE only)

  • @Asum.4960 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    I think that easiest fix is diferent scaling with BD. Also quickness chrono is at 22-23k dps. Almost the same as power quickbrand (23k). While providing boons to other subsquad too. Hybrids like tjose 2 are not a problem. Problems are dps classes that provide permanent boins with almost no losses like fmw stacking.

    Sure, but they don't do so on their own, they do so by stacking. If you nerf the source of the Quickness they stack, you also nerf the capability of a single hybrid or dedicated support to provide that Boon.

    How would that scale differently with BD? How would the game know if you are playing a otherwise full dps cFB with FMW, a condi Quickbrand with FMW or full support FB with FMW?
    BD only scales with base duration, so the lower the base quickness duration, the worse it scales with BD. The higher the base duration, the better it scales with BD on a dedicated support, but at the same time, the easier it is to cover without any BD at all by just stacking full DPS's with the skill.

    If you nerf FMW, sure you may remove the viability of stacking full DPS DH's or FB's running it to provide quickness, which is only done in extremely niche groups and imo not necessary, but at the same time that may then require actually running more Guards or Mesmers on top of a Quickbrand or Quickness chrono to substitute that loss, actually making those professions more stacked for the vast majority of groups, achieving the opposite of what people are complaining about here.

    So either we are fine with those niche groups stacking these professions, or these Quickness sources on these professions would have to be nerfed and substituted by (preferably personal) Quickness on most other professions, to prevent those few group Quickness sources from being stacked even more, this time even more so across the game.

    Diferent scaling means that each 1 percent BD increse the duration of quickness from fmw by 2 percent. That way it can be more efective if you have higher BD and less efective if you have none.

    If you nerf fmw and buff quickness traits on firebrand, nothing will change for firebrand but DH stacking will be gone because there arent spots left for more DHs in squad.

    And I know that FB stacking would stay but that is good only on few fights (sabetha comes to mind) and that isnt a problem. DH stacking on 70% of bosses is.

  • reikken.4961reikken.4961 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 11, 2019

    @ first post:
    ranger. ranger is in every comp
    in fact it is the ONLY class that is in every comp

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @reikken.4961 said:
    @ first post:
    ranger. ranger is in every comp
    in fact it is the ONLY class that is in every comp

    Warrior is in every squad comp aswell.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @reikken.4961 said:
    @ first post:
    ranger. ranger is in every comp
    in fact it is the ONLY class that is in every comp

    Warrior is in every squad comp aswell.

    Nah normaly you dont take them at twins you still take rangers tho.

  • @Reikou.7068 @""sokeenoppa.5384"
    My discussion is about pure dps classes, there is no comp that stacks 6-7 warriors or rangers

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @reikken.4961 said:
    @ first post:
    ranger. ranger is in every comp
    in fact it is the ONLY class that is in every comp

    Warrior is in every squad comp aswell.

    Nah normaly you dont take them at twins you still take rangers tho.

    Even SC takes warrior for twins tho..

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • vermouth.3478vermouth.3478 Member ✭✭
    edited December 11, 2019

    _Bring back the staff weaver stacking and scourge epi stacking _

  • tim.4596tim.4596 Member ✭✭✭

    I would be careful not to confuse single class and team comp, what you see on Snow Crows website are the strongest teamcomp to defeat bosses, and all there is to it really is to reduce boon duration so that you can play a full dps comp. However those are not the classes doing the most dps on those bosses with the exception of Guardian/DH/FB who would actually really need a nerf as it's completely overpowered atm. I'm fine with firebrigade memes, but when the Firebrand is able to pull out more than 25k target dps on some specific bosses that's way too high, there is no way that boon chrono is able to do that almost except on short fights.