NERF RANGERS

Daishi.6027 · December 26, 2019

@"aymnad.9023" said:
Sustain tools - This is primarily because of wilderness survival in combination with weapons like MH sword which has two built in evasions on short cooldowns, and GS which has a really good block, with a flip over for a CC+evade, on top of endurance regen on auto. Among other options plus CC, and boons, to mitigate damage and let it safely regain HP even on builds only running demolisher; which is why things like Troll Unguent seem so powerful, when alone the heal skill's design is not really that much of an issue.Sword : not used right now. (and does not do anything else)GS : block is definitly strong. It could get a 0.5s decrease. But auto sucks. You will almost never reach the 3rd one because this is suicide (super long animation and backswing) and the endurance is mediocre.Troll Ungent : Not that strong. Clearly leaves a window of opportunity to kill ranger or use poison to weaken it. It is only working because ranger has tools to disengage or defend during a short time but if they do that, rigth after that you can go all in no problem.

WS : Sadly mandatory for any build. Ranger litteraly has no dispell outside of that. We used to have shouts but that you were forced to take soldiers rune and that was not the best option (ratio cd / effect). Also important to note is that core ranger only has 1 STABILITY SOURCE. It is one of the professions with the least amount of stab. And guess what? Stunbreacks are also in survival. (edit : and I forgot about protection + regen it gives. Even with such an overloaded branch ranger struggles. But be sure that we would love having more options and note that it happens also for other professions)

Beastmastery : Mandatory if you want to have an ok pet (yes only ok, see other points). Necessary for slb to get well it's e-spec mechanics.

Along with things like Hunter's Shot which is a reliable target drop in a 3 stealth packet, on only a 12 second cooldown, Almost the equivalent of a 30 second cooldown utility.This stealth is shorter than the 30s cd you see on other professions + it is not reliable. Why ?First it is not instant, then it is a projectile (with a clear animation). It can be dodged, blocked, reflected. Not to mention that any profession with detection or tether (sb, revenant, holo) will make ranger on lb dead meat if it dispells it.

Sword is still an option that offers just as much in terms of surviability as greatsword, the point still remains. If GS was nerfed tomorrow sword/x could be picked up to cover; that's mostly why I mentioned it, also it's not like it hasn't been used on druid in the past and couldn't be in the future.

Even without the auto GS offers a large block and an evade follow up and it's not that hard to land in a team fight, and a flat 30% recharge to a single evade isn't what I'd call "mediocre". But let's say I concede that point and ignore auto, even then; with WS alone you get a passive 25% endurance regen, with even more health regen ontop of troll ungent from protection; and great you don't need to stack shouts anymore. So now you can take (arguably better) survival skills for stronger cleanses, along with stun breaks? All while not be locked into a rune spread? (Some people have to actually spec into their cleanse, and lose viability doing so), and I didn't even mention the sustain/survivability granted from options granted by utilities and by beast mode.

Also your point about troll unguent is the exact one I'm making, it's covered by all this sustain, and then made better with all the passive regen built in. I agree that troll unguent isn't that strong alone. Anyone saying that, that is what needs to be nerfed clearly doesn't understand what's compounding with it.

All in all Ranger can evade/block/sustain more than even a mirage. Do the math, calculate the on demand options, you can even include blinds from a condi mirage, and ranger still has better sustain on damage based builds. This isn't to say condi mirage doesn't have it's own problems that have yet to be addressed, but if people are going to say Mirage has to much evasion; this is a huge double standard and leaves quite a big large question about ranger.

In regards to Hunter's Shot: No, the stealth is not shorter than the 30s cds on other professions.

The Prestige - 30 sec for 3 seconds of stealth.Hide in Shadows - 30 seconds for 3 seconds of stealth.Blinding Powder - 40 seconds for 3 seconds of stealth.Shadow Gust - 30 seconds for 3 seconds of stealth.Decoy - 40 seconds of 3 seconds of stealth.Signet of Midnight - 30 seconds for 2 seconds of stealth.I'm not even going to mention the awfulness that is Veil outside of WvW coordinated shenanigans.

One to one, the only thing that compares to Hunter's shot in terms of on demand stealth are elites and Shadow refuge.where Sneak Gyro is like 9 seconds for a cooldown of 45Shadow meld is 6 for 45 then 45 for 3 (Cuz charge)and Mass invis which is 6 for 60.

All While Hunters shot is 12 seconds for 3.On average Most stealth skills follow a rule of 10 seconds per 1 second of stealth, which hunter's shot does not; in a 60 second period you can get off five '3 second chunks' of stealth for a total of 15 seconds of stealth. This is on the same level as Shadow Refuge; and SR has all it's duration clumped into one instance of stealth, and involves sitting in a spot you can be knocked out of and screams "Come AoE this spot". Which alone isn't an issue, the issue with ranger comes when you have:

your pet doing decent passive damage through this,and 2. the REAL problem; this adding significantly to the sustain, which also compounds on the cover for things like troll unguent.

Plus unreliable because it doesn't proc on a defensive cooldown? I mean my entire premise is about the survivability being to much. If you've forced your opponent to block or defend themselves in someway, that is more time given to the ranger for cooldowns and regen to come back. If a player blocks and you don't shoot, you have the stealth and the time they spent blocking.If they block your shot, you still get the time they spent blocking. Also this is comparing defensive skills to counter something on a 12 second cooldown that isn't a main source of damage burst. Also any weaknesses Stealth has (like tether) is a weakness for any of the other skills too. Hunter's Shot isn't alone in that.

Pet - reliable passive damage that ignore's line of sight, cannot be easily cleaved and bursted down, and if focused will waste your cooldowns as it's quickly swapped out. Not to mention for any class that can stealth in turn, the animal just instantly keeps track. Which may be reasonably thematic, but countering something like that should only be active. Either way for something that can capitalize on range damage, it too easily and without punishment pressures targets behind LoS.Common belief too. Have you played ranger vs those following professions or the opposite? Try to see how fast the pet dies to : condi mirage, symbol guard, fire weaver. They do not even target the pet but clean it like nothing. Heck even spellbreacker loves the pet! Free tether for them! Damage is mediocre to bad if you let the pet by itself, it gets killed easily and ranger is litteraly destroyed by LoS. (war players just hide and wait to kill the pet). I am not even talking about a mid fight but I assume you were thinking about 1V

Some classes can deal with it easily sure, I'd argue that most of those are overturned as well tho. Pet suffers vs condi bomb, and Condi is an issue in and of itself. However, at least in the case of Symbol guard and Condi mirage they still have to dump quite a few cooldowns in to focus it. SpellBreaker, and Fire Weaver are really the only ones who kill pet for "free", but that's 2 classes out of the entire game, and 2 more classes who have to pump their resources into it.

Pet isn't as bad as condi mirage clones in terms of passive bs, but at least clones die in one auto string; pet doesn't, and pet can force defensive cooldowns out of anyone running demo, marauder, or zerk amulets that isn't warrior, or a medium armor other than thief, because they really can't tank the hit.

I'm not even going to touch about the downstate thing because I don't care enough really, but the sustain even just running demo ammy is wayyyyyy to high and wayyy to safe.

Ranger definitely isn't the problem we had with Holo, and Condi mirage (which still needs to be nerfed in a way that makes damage more active, and not sustained passively via clones). But if we're going into a game where everything is being realistically toned down, in the advent of everything else that has been nerfed on other classes; If ranger is not brought in line it's going to end up back where it was before PoF, before the global survivability nerfs, and I have always advocated that an over abundance of survivability is the most unhealthy thing for conquest- regardless of class.

Shao.7236 · December 26, 2019

GS/Bow Ranger in general are already pretty strong when played right, Gazelle damage and CC among the rest of things is just insane.

Considering that I'm already tanking over 10k Maul's every so often down to 5k damage with Rite and have to wisely use my stability with the long lasting block and extra evade from counterattack they can just rip stab through with annulment along their 3 other CC's that comes from the pets, the class has a really strong kit that needs some toning down because there's so much rangers can do in a period of time that not even some good old bruisers can outdo them with their ability to disengage from Bow 3 and Smokescale Smoke and re-engage with medium risk.

Gazelle is just the one that I think does too much damage with modifiers, 9k on top of all the rest the ranger can do is a lot for anybody.

Despond.2174 · December 26, 2019

You sound a bit anecdotal. The old sic em build got nerfed hard and if you're talking about LB and even the popular power beast builds they all have pretty bad damage @ high ratings.

They are good for lower rating but drop drastically in effect as you climb higher. Try be a little more calm, they are definitely not even close to being meta for spvp or wvw.

FyzE.3472 · December 26, 2019

l2p / just dodge 4head.

Oslaf Beinir.5842 · December 26, 2019

i play necro and i know how the ranger class worksim fine

aside from gazelle it is fine

you were just defeated by the player and their kiting knowledge

Swagger.1459 · December 26, 2019

@"LazySummer.2568" said:Dunno, I think this class is trying to fly under the radar from the pee vee pee subforums by being the last class not mentioned, and I mean, I still see them played in like every one of my plat games so it must mean they're OP.
My arguments?
BROKEN AI PET SPAMMING CC EVERY 5s AND DOING 80% OF THE DPS FOR THEMGOD LIKE LEVEL OF SUSTAIN + MOBILITY / KITING WITH MUDDY TERRAIN HEAL SPAMINSANE 1500 (MORE LIKE 2000) RANGE SIC EM PEW PEWOP BLOCK WITH CC + EVADE ON SUPER LOW 15s CD WHEN ALL OTHER CCS ABILITIES HAVE AT LEAST 20s CD (dont fact check me on this one pls i didt do research ty)STEALTH SPAM + PLASMA (kitten I THOUGHT ONLY THIEVES ARE SUPPOSED TO HAVE ACCESS THESE CHEATS LMAO)EVADE SPAM THAT RIVALS EVEN WEAVERS AND THIEVES (i mean just look at their sword, greatsword, dagger skills c'mon)BRAINDEAD DOWNSTATE THANKS AGAIN TO THEIR AIREVIVES THEIR AI FOR FREE BY MERGINGand to top this all off they also got CRAZY STABILITY UP TIME WITH LIKE 20 STACKS BY JUST PRESSING 2 BUTTONS.
inb4 l2p / just dodge 4head. Only monkey, biased ranger mains use these non-arguments.

inb4 cri moar l2weever/nurf ele…

Leonidrex.5649 · December 26, 2019

@Swagger.1459 said:
@"LazySummer.2568" said:Dunno, I think this class is trying to fly under the radar from the pee vee pee subforums by being the last class not mentioned, and I mean, I still see them played in like every one of my plat games so it must mean they're OP.
My arguments?
BROKEN AI PET SPAMMING CC EVERY 5s AND DOING 80% OF THE DPS FOR THEMGOD LIKE LEVEL OF SUSTAIN + MOBILITY / KITING WITH MUDDY TERRAIN HEAL SPAMINSANE 1500 (MORE LIKE 2000) RANGE SIC EM PEW PEWOP BLOCK WITH CC + EVADE ON SUPER LOW 15s CD WHEN ALL OTHER CCS ABILITIES HAVE AT LEAST 20s CD (dont fact check me on this one pls i didt do research ty)STEALTH SPAM + PLASMA (kitten I THOUGHT ONLY THIEVES ARE SUPPOSED TO HAVE ACCESS THESE CHEATS LMAO)EVADE SPAM THAT RIVALS EVEN WEAVERS AND THIEVES (i mean just look at their sword, greatsword, dagger skills c'mon)BRAINDEAD DOWNSTATE THANKS AGAIN TO THEIR AIREVIVES THEIR AI FOR FREE BY MERGINGand to top this all off they also got CRAZY STABILITY UP TIME WITH LIKE 20 STACKS BY JUST PRESSING 2 BUTTONS.
inb4 l2p / just dodge 4head. Only monkey, biased ranger mains use these non-arguments.

inb4 cri moar l2weever/nurf ele…

I got killed by this thing exactly twice, after that I googled the skill and never died to it since :D

Azure The Heartless.3261 · December 26, 2019

@"Swagger.1459" said:
inb4 cri moar l2weever/nurf ele…

People are out here still getting nuked by churning earth/Lightning flash

aymnad.9023 · December 26, 2019

@"Daishi.6027" said:
Sword is still an option that offers just as much in terms of surviability as greatsword, the point still remains. If GS was nerfed tomorrow sword/x could be picked up to cover; that's mostly why I mentioned it, also it's not like it hasn't been used on druid in the past and couldn't be in the future.I do not see how S can be an equivalent/replacement for GS (even if it gets nerfed). Both have different purpose. Sword is better if you are thinking about a long, sustained fight (and even for that axe is better) and mobility (reason it has been used on boonbeast). GS is way better for burst (defense or offense).
Even without the auto GS offers a large block and an evade follow up and it's not that hard to land in a team fight, and a flat 30% recharge to a single evade isn't what I'd call "mediocre". But let's say I concede that point and ignore auto, even then; with WS alone you get a passive 25% endurance regen,You do not throw away your evade counter in a tf. That will be a sign of "hey guys, time to go on me". Yes the GS auto effect is mediocre. Committing to the end is pure suicide, the benefits are so small they barely exist. You play it like you can stay on it, it just does not happen, give it a try.
with even more health regen ontop of troll ungent from protection; and great you don't need to stack shouts anymore. So now you can take (arguably better) survival skills for stronger cleanses, along with stun breaks? All while not be locked into a rune spread? (Some people have to actually spec into their cleanse, and lose viability doing so), and I didn't even mention the sustain/survivability granted from options granted by utilities and by beast mode.Uh? I do not see your point here. I should be happy to not any other option? I should be happy to get a stunbreak + dispell wih a grand master when some have it baseline? I will give you some details, maybe it will help you understand : Core ranger, without WS has the following dispells :
Healing spring : not instant, slow, low healing, forces you to stay inside the aoe and thus suicide
Nature spirit : 2min cd, interrupted and dying for no reason
Signet of renewal : Long cd + not working if you are far from the pet
Evasive purity : nice effect, but do you want to waste a dodge just to dispell ?
Brown bear : … really?Now tell me if any of those look good to you.

Even the dev are aware of this. They try to give stab, stunbreak on e-specs but they have some side effect (as much as I like bear stance it makes you take more damage than you heal). The only thing ranger is good at is removing impairing conditions. Truly they want ranger to be mobile.

Good luck finding stunbreak, condi clear on core ranger if you decide to play without it.

Also your point about troll unguent is the exact one I'm making, it's covered by all this sustain, and then made better with all the passive regen built in. I agree that troll unguent isn't that strong alone. Anyone saying that, that is what needs to be nerfed clearly doesn't understand what's compounding with it.We agree on this point but the only thing I want to repeat is even with this ranger still struggles to survive an aggression or a 1V1. So if they really want to decrease it they have to be really careful.
All in all Ranger can evade/block/sustain more than even a mirage. Do the math, calculate the on demand options, you can even include blinds from a condi mirage, and ranger still has better sustain on damage based builds. This isn't to say condi mirage doesn't have it's own problems that have yet to be addressed, but if people are going to say Mirage has to much evasion; this is a huge double standard and leaves quite a big large question about ranger.Comparing ranger and mirage is pushing it a bit too far don't you think? I mean if you look only at regen numbers yes I agree. Ranger has more passive healing. But if you look at the rest evade and blocks and defense (chaos armor) mesmer is far ahead. Have you looked at the scepter frequency and mirage endurance? And how about comparing the ability to the pressure during the evade?I can point other professions doing better if you think ranger is really that strong.
In regards to Hunter's Shot: No, the stealth is not shorter than the 30s cds on other professions.
The Prestige - 30 sec for 3 seconds of stealth.Hide in Shadows - 30 seconds for 3 seconds of stealth.Blinding Powder - 40 seconds for 3 seconds of stealth.Shadow Gust - 30 seconds for 3 seconds of stealth.Decoy - 40 seconds of 3 seconds of stealth.Signet of Midnight - 30 seconds for 2 seconds of stealth.I'm not even going to mention the awfulness that is Veil outside of WvW coordinated shenanigans.
One to one, the only thing that compares to Hunter's shot in terms of on demand stealth are elites and Shadow refuge.where Sneak Gyro is like 9 seconds for a cooldown of 45Shadow meld is 6 for 45 then 45 for 3 (Cuz charge)and Mass invis which is 6 for 60.
All While Hunters shot is 12 seconds for 3.On average Most stealth skills follow a rule of 10 seconds per 1 second of stealth, which hunter's shot does not; in a 60 second period you can get off five '3 second chunks' of stealth for a total of 15 seconds of stealth. This is on the same level as Shadow Refuge; and SR has all it's duration clumped into one instance of stealth, and involves sitting in a spot you can be knocked out of and screams "Come AoE this spot".Mesmer can increase stealth, thief can spam it. Both can get benefits for being in stealth and none of the profession you mentioned are dead like ranger lb if it dispells. You also did not mention some aoe and other effects on those skills.
Which alone isn't an issue, the issue with ranger comes when you have:
your pet doing decent passive damage through this,and
the REAL problem; this adding significantly to the sustain, which also compounds on the cover for things like troll unguent.As I said, ranger has to blow multiple defensive cd to make it work so not a real issue.
Plus unreliable because it doesn't proc on a defensive cooldown? I mean my entire premise is about the survivability being to much. If you've forced your opponent to block or defend themselves in someway, that is more time given to the ranger for cooldowns and regen to come back. If a player blocks and you don't shoot, you have the stealth and the time they spent blocking.If they block your shot, you still get the time they spent blocking. Also this is comparing defensive skills to counter something on a 12 second cooldown that isn't a main source of damage burst.Hum how often do you see people dodging / blocking the arrow on purpose? Most of the time (probably > 95%) people do not even block/dodge it intentionally.
Also any weaknesses Stealth has (like tether) is a weakness for any of the other skills too. Hunter's Shot isn't alone in that.Also none of those skills give stealth to the enemy on reflect and also none of those skills can miss (blind, blocks, dodge, out of range, los). So it does have a shorter cd and more weaknesses.
Some classes can deal with it easily sure, I'd argue that most of those are overturned as well tho. Pet suffers vs condi bomb, and Condi is an issue in and of itself. However, at least in the case of Symbol guard and Condi mirage they still have to dump quite a few cooldowns in to focus it. SpellBreaker, and Fire Weaver are really the only ones who kill pet for "free", but that's 2 classes out of the entire game, and 2 more classes who have to pump their resources into it.I am not sure about the meaning of this sentence. As I said they do not even target it specifically. They use spells the same way a fire weaver will. They go on ranger and the pets gets damaged because he stands in the area. I can also add reaper spin and probably look for more. All those skills are not targeting pet and still killing it.
Pet isn't as bad as condi mirage clones in terms of passive bs, but at least clones die in one auto string; pet doesn't, and pet can force defensive cooldowns out of anyone running demo, marauder, or zerk amulets that isn't warrior, or a medium armor other than thief, because they really can't tank the hit.Also if you really want to compare it to mesmer ranger is bound to a longer cd.

Something people do not realize is that ranger has lower effects and overspecializing makes you really weak in a lot of domains unlike other profession thus Ranger main role is to move from point to point using his diversity of skills and help his team win. Sometimes you have a side noder ranger but I see like 2 per season. Ranger is worst in 1V1 than many professions, it is worst in teamfight than many professions, it is a worst fronlane, healer, buffer than many professions. You look at ANY role and you have better.

If you look at PvE (group content) it becomes even more obvious. Ranger has a lower dps and a lower survivability than other professions. It just is more balanced than the rest and that is it's strength for solo play and weakness in a team (I mean well rounded like if you looked at a personality test weird star graph, it has a good number of points everywhere but does not shine anywhere, not balanced in the sense of profession balance).

Edit : Did give some precision like PvE (group content not open world), Added chaos armor on mesmer and tried to explain the graph thing, I do not know the word for this sorry :sweat_smile: )

Sleepwalker.1398 · December 26, 2019

@Axl.8924 said:
Rangers only have 2 stealth abilities that are limited 1 is stalk jaguar pet and the other is hunters shot on a 12 sec cd, jaguar has 30 sec cd, and aren't that crazy.
Smokescale

Daishi.6027 · December 26, 2019

@aymnad.9023 said:
@"Daishi.6027" said:
Sword is still an option that offers just as much in terms of surviability as greatsword, the point still remains. If GS was nerfed tomorrow sword/x could be picked up to cover; that's mostly why I mentioned it, also it's not like it hasn't been used on druid in the past and couldn't be in the future.I do not see how S can be an equivalent/replacement for GS (even if it gets nerfed). Both have different purpose. Sword is better if you are thinking about a long, sustained fight (and even for that axe is better) and mobility (reason it has been used on boonbeast). GS is way better for burst (defense or offense).

The reference was in terms of defense and sustain. If GS is nerfed offensively Sword is better defensively anyways. If GS is nerfed defensively; sword is the best natural alternative unless they stay for the damage.-which imo it should probably get a defensive nerf and have one for just defense, but then that still doesn't solve the issue of the sustain; it only reduces the sustain in contrast to the damage, when my point is: sustain is to high.

Even without the auto GS offers a large block and an evade follow up and it's not that hard to land in a team fight, and a flat 30% recharge to a single evade isn't what I'd call "mediocre". But let's say I concede that point and ignore auto, even then; with WS alone you get a passive 25% endurance regen,You do not throw away your evade counter in a tf. That will be a sign of "hey guys, time to go on me". Yes the GS auto effect is mediocre. Committing to the end is pure suicide, the benefits are so small they barely exist. You play it like you can stay on it, it just does not happen, give it a try.

Not 100% sure what you are trying to say here, but: Sure you do have to switch off it, but it's hardly a "time to get me" moment because there are a lot of other defensive tools a ranger can employ; including switching to longbow pinging literally anything, and breaking target to re-position.

with even more health regen ontop of troll ungent from protection; and great you don't need to stack shouts anymore. So now you can take (arguably better) survival skills for stronger cleanses, along with stun breaks? All while not be locked into a rune spread? (Some people have to actually spec into their cleanse, and lose viability doing so), and I didn't even mention the sustain/survivability granted from options granted by utilities and by beast mode.Uh? I do not see your point here. I should be happy to not any other option? I should be happy to get a stunbreak + dispell wih a grand master when some have it baseline? I will give you some details, maybe it will help you understand : Core ranger, without WS has the following dispells :
Healing spring : not instant, slow, low healing, forces you to stay Inside the aoe and thus suicide
Nature spirit : 2min cd, interrupted and dying for no reason
Signet of renewal : Long cd + not working if you are far from the pet
Evasive purity : nice effect, but do you want to waste a dodge just to dispell ?
Brown bear : I mean… really?Now tell me if any of those look good to you.

Even the dev are aware of this.

They try to give stab, stunbreak on e-specs but they have some side effect (as much as I like bear stance it makes you take more damage than you heal). The only thing ranger is good at is removing impairing conditions. Truly they want ranger to be mobile.

Good luck finding stunbreak, condi clear on core ranger if you decide to play without it.

lol, the point is that the line gives to much sustain. It doesn't need to give all that endurance regen and health sustain, that is far superior to any other class, and then fix the need to spec into cleanses and stunbreaks.There is a significant reason why pre-PoF 1v1 tournies were banning the use of WS+BM forcing people to pick one.

Also your point about troll unguent is the exact one I'm making, it's covered by all this sustain, and then made better with all the passive regen built in. I agree that troll unguent isn't that strong alone. Anyone saying that, that is what needs to be nerfed clearly doesn't understand what's compounding with it.We agree on this point but the only thing I want to repeat is even with this ranger still struggles to survive an aggression or a 1V1. So if they really want to decrease it they have to be really careful.

Against the stupidity of current Weaver, pre-nerf holo, and war. Sure, but against pretty much anything else you can play defensive and contest a point. If you don't allow a decap, or push them off point you win. You don't need to "win" a fight to win in conquest, and that's part of the problem why stuff like this is problematic. Things like this needs to be pointed out especially now in this transitional time, otherwise we set a precedent for unhealthy play.

All in all Ranger can evade/block/sustain more than even a mirage. Do the math, calculate the on demand options, you can even include blinds from a condi mirage, and ranger still has better sustain on damage based builds. This isn't to say condi mirage doesn't have it's own problems that have yet to be addressed, but if people are going to say Mirage has to much evasion; this is a huge double standard and leaves quite a big large question about ranger.Comparing ranger and mirage is pushing it a bit too far don't you think? I mean if you look only at regen numbers yes I agree. Ranger has more passive healing. But if you look at the rest evade and blocks and defense (chaos armor) mesmer is far ahead. I mean have you looked at the scepter frequency and mirage endurance? And how about comparing the ability to the pressure during the evade?I can point other professions doing better if you think ranger is really that strong.

I mean... I didn't really want to get into a class based comparison, so I'll try to be brief. I've said Condi Mirage has balance issues, but I don't think evasion is one of them and frankly; No. It's not to much. Evades and blocks are superior on Ranger.Mirage has: 2 evades, 1 hard on demand block or evade with 1 out of 2 weapon sets; regardless of spec, distortion which costs all your resources, and a mirror on heal which tells you exactly where and when he's going to evade, with less endurance regen via worse vigor uptime, and no passive. While Ranger gets 2 evades, multiple hard blocks and evades on 1 of 2 weapon sets (and has historically had meta builds that had 2 weapon sets with on demand block/evasion), passive regen, AND better vigor uptime, Then utilities where you can have your pick of signet of stone or lightning reflexes, and then smoke assault if soul beast, on top of GS auto regen.Even if Mirage had more on demand cooldowns, which it doesn't; Ranger still wins out with endurance regen.Just to compare: Even if we were to go the absolute worst, with traited scepter (which no one does because everyone is obsessed with chaos) we are still talking about a one hit counter. Compared to ranger GS which can block multiple hits and multi hit attacks, and can delay the flip over evade to deny multiple important cooldowns... All while the cooldown difference between those block skills being 4 seconds, on account of BM being almost as bloated as WS so everyone having it traited.

In regards to Hunter's Shot: No, the stealth is not shorter than the 30s cds on other professions.
The Prestige - 30 sec for 3 seconds of stealth.Hide in Shadows - 30 seconds for 3 seconds of stealth.Blinding Powder - 40 seconds for 3 seconds of stealth.Shadow Gust - 30 seconds for 3 seconds of stealth.Decoy - 40 seconds of 3 seconds of stealth.Signet of Midnight - 30 seconds for
2
seconds of stealth.I'm not even going to mention the awfulness that is Veil outside of WvW coordinated shenanigans.
One to one, the only thing that compares to Hunter's shot in terms of on demand stealth are elites and Shadow refuge.where Sneak Gyro is like 9 seconds for a cooldown of 45Shadow meld is 6 for 45 then 45 for 3 (Cuz charge)and Mass invis which is 6 for 60.
All While Hunters shot is 12 seconds for 3.On average Most stealth skills follow a rule of 10 seconds per 1 second of stealth, which hunter's shot does not; in a 60 second period you can get off five '3 second chunks' of stealth for a total of 15 seconds of stealth. This is on the same level as Shadow Refuge; and SR has all it's duration clumped into one instance of stealth, and involves sitting in a spot you can be knocked out of and screams "Come AoE this spot".Mesmer can increase stealth, thief can spam it. Both can get benefits for being in stealth and none of the profession you mentioned are dead like ranger lb if it dispells. You also did not mention some aoe and other effects on those skills.

The stealth roamer classes that are the primary users of stealth, should probably be able to stealth. Yet ranger out paces untraited mesmer with 1 weapon, and traited only adds 1.5 seconds to every 3 second cooldown; so great 4.5 seconds of stealth for a 30 second cooldown. This is still far inferior to 3 seconds on a 12 second cooldown.Even then, the only build that can make use of it is a core build, that builds itself to hide a frankly easily avoidable one shot that is countered simply by map awareness and sound, and has LESS evade than even mirage.

Regardless I strongly disagree, with the notion that ranger suffers more from being revealed. With the amount of defensive cooldowns, and passive sustain for both health and endurance afforded to rangers; Thief and Mesmer are far more at risk when revealed. Although, admittedly thief may have more evasion than even ranger; but usually not if they are specced for perma stealth.

As for not mentioning AoEs for the others, that's because you can simply move out of it or your opponent has to guess where you are. Only Shadow Refuge (and I guess veil; lol) require you to sit in an obvious location for 4-5 seconds.

(Also it's funny that you mention it being dispelled since ranger is one of the biggest offenders of dispelling it. So not only to get they get the best easy access stealth skill, but they also can remove it from others.)

Which alone isn't an issue, the issue with ranger comes when you have:
your pet doing decent passive damage through this,and
the REAL problem; this adding significantly to the sustain, which also compounds on the cover for things like troll unguent.As I said, ranger has to blow multiple defensive cd to make it work so not a real issue.

Everyone needs to blow their defensive CDs to avoid burst, and everyone needs to cover their heal.Ranger just has a lot of tools for a long heal, which means they live longer; which is unhealthy for conqeust. Either way by the end of that process, Ranger passively out paces the resources of most classes that don't just naturally dunk it... Which is still most of the roster.

Plus unreliable because it doesn't proc on a defensive cooldown? I mean my entire premise is about the survivability being to much. If you've forced your opponent to block or defend themselves in someway, that is more time given to the ranger for cooldowns and regen to come back. If a player blocks and you don't shoot, you have the stealth and the time they spent blocking.If they block your shot, you still get the time they spent blocking. Also this is comparing defensive skills to counter something on a 12 second cooldown that isn't a main source of damage burst.Hum how often do you see people dodging / blocking the arrow on purpose? Most of the time (probably > 95%) people do not even block/dodge it intentionally.

You could say the same thing about any skill in the game, unless it's a big hit that's actively avoided. If you didn't shoot it at a vulnerable time that's a bit on you; and it doesn't matter anyways it comes back up in 12 seconds. Besides it's easy to ping a different target occupied with someone else, or ping a pet.

Also any weaknesses Stealth has (like tether) is a weakness for any of the other skills too. Hunter's Shot isn't alone in that.Also none of those skills give stealth to the enemy on reflect and also none of those skills can miss (blind, blocks, dodge, out of range). So it does have a shorter cd and more weaknesses.

Very few classes have reflect, most reflect is obvious, anyone who reflects it is probably going to instantly reveal themselves since as you pointed out "no one particularly intends to avoid it", and I hardly consider "hit someone with this every 12 seconds" to be much of a weakness unless your goal is to stealth out of combat, because in combat: Even if you whiff twice you're still getting better stealth than any of the skills I mentioned, bundled into 1 weapon that is also a good damage weapon.

Some classes can deal with it easily sure, I'd argue that most of those are overturned as well tho. Pet suffers vs condi bomb, and Condi is an issue in and of itself. However, at least in the case of
Symbol guard and Condi mirage they still have to dump quite a few cooldowns in to focus it
. SpellBreaker, and Fire Weaver are really the only ones who kill pet for "free", but that's 2 classes out of the entire game, and 2 more classes who have to pump their resources into it.I am not sure about the meaning of this sentence. As I said they do not even target it specifically. They use spells the same way a fire weaver will. They go on ranger and the pets gets damaged because he stands in the area. I can also add reaper spin and probably look for more. All those skills are not targeting pet and still killing it.

Symbol Gaurds cleave, but if the pet is not right on the ranger and being harassed the guard has to pump it's cooldowns into the pet and requires both to be in close proximity. (I personally have used this to make symbolgaurds blow cooldowns while kiting them, and when pet was close to dead I swapped and went aggro.)Condi mirage is mostly single target outside of staff, and bounces prioritize allies. If a mirage wants to condi your pet they have to focus it.

Pet isn't as bad as condi mirage clones in terms of passive bs, but at least clones die in one auto string; pet doesn't, and pet can force defensive cooldowns out of anyone running demo, marauder, or zerk amulets that isn't warrior, or a medium armor other than thief, because they really can't tank the hit.Also if you really want to compare it to mesmer ranger is bound to a longer cd.

Something people do not realize is that ranger has lower effects and overspecializing makes you really weak in a lot of domains unlike other profession thus Ranger main role is to move from point to point using his diversity of skills and help his team win. Sometimes you have a side noder ranger but I see like 2 per season. Ranger is worst in 1V1 than many professions, it is worst in teamfight than many professions, it is a worst fronlane, healer, buffer than many professions. You look at ANY role and you have better.

If you look at PvE (group content) it becomes even more obvious. Ranger has a lower dps and a lower survivability than other professions. It just is more balanced than the rest (I mean well rounded like if you looked at a personality test weird star graph, it has a lot of points everywhere but does not shine anywhere, not balanced in the sense of profession balance).

Edit : Did give some precision like PvE (group content not open world), Added chaos armor on mesmer and tried to explain the graph thing, I do not know the word for this sorry :sweat_smile: )

You're right, it isn't the best 1v1er but it has some good matchups. I wouldn't call it the worst team fighter but sure, it's no necro/gaurd, and it may not be a support class.But you do know what it is? A bruiser that is dangerously close to a bunker, and for the few matchups you lose you can out-sustain the rest of the game while sitting on point. This is unhealthy for conquest and why it will be a problem if it's not one now.

Also PvE is irrelevant here, this is PvP forums. But it seems like more than ever is A-net committed to splitting the game modes.

Psycoprophet.8107 · December 27, 2019

@Daishi.6027 said:
@aymnad.9023 said:
@Daishi.6027 said:
Sword is still an option that offers just as much in terms of surviability as greatsword, the point still remains. If GS was nerfed tomorrow sword/x could be picked up to cover; that's mostly why I mentioned it, also it's not like it hasn't been used on druid in the past and couldn't be in the future.I do not see how S can be an equivalent/replacement for GS (even if it gets nerfed). Both have different purpose. Sword is better if you are thinking about a long, sustained fight (and even for that axe is better) and mobility (reason it has been used on boonbeast). GS is way better for burst (defense or offense).

The reference was in terms of defense and sustain. If GS is nerfed offensively Sword is better defensively anyways. If GS is nerfed defensively; sword is the best natural alternative unless they stay for the damage.-which imo it should probably get a defensive nerf and have one for just defense, but then that still doesn't solve the issue of the sustain; it only reduces the sustain in contrast to the damage, when my point is: sustain is to high.

Even without the auto GS offers a large block and an evade follow up and it's not that hard to land in a team fight, and a flat 30% recharge to a single evade isn't what I'd call "mediocre". But let's say I concede that point and ignore auto, even then; with WS alone you get a passive 25% endurance regen,You do not throw away your evade counter in a tf. That will be a sign of "hey guys, time to go on me". Yes the GS auto effect is mediocre. Committing to the end is pure suicide, the benefits are so small they barely exist. You play it like you can stay on it, it just does not happen, give it a try.

Not 100% sure what you are trying to say here, but: Sure you do have to switch off it, but it's hardly a "time to get me" moment because there are a lot of other defensive tools a ranger can employ; including switching to longbow pinging literally anything, and breaking target to re-position.

with even more health regen ontop of troll ungent from protection; and great you don't need to stack shouts anymore. So now you can take (arguably better) survival skills for stronger cleanses, along with stun breaks? All while not be locked into a rune spread? (Some people have to actually spec into their cleanse, and lose viability doing so), and I didn't even mention the sustain/survivability granted from options granted by utilities and by beast mode.Uh? I do not see your point here. I should be happy to not any other option? I should be happy to get a stunbreak + dispell wih a grand master when some have it baseline? I will give you some details, maybe it will help you understand : Core ranger, without WS has the following dispells :
Healing spring : not instant, slow, low healing, forces you to stay Inside the aoe and thus suicide
Nature spirit : 2min cd, interrupted and dying for no reason
Signet of renewal : Long cd + not working if you are far from the pet
Evasive purity : nice effect, but do you want to waste a dodge just to dispell ?
Brown bear : I mean… really?Now tell me if any of those look good to you.

Even the dev are aware of this.

They try to give stab, stunbreak on e-specs but they have some side effect (as much as I like bear stance it makes you take more damage than you heal). The only thing ranger is good at is removing impairing conditions. Truly they want ranger to be mobile.

Good luck finding stunbreak, condi clear on core ranger if you decide to play without it.

lol, the point is that the line gives to much sustain. It doesn't need to give all that endurance regen and health sustain, that is far superior to any other class, and

then

fix the need to spec into cleanses and stunbreaks.There is a significant reason why pre-PoF 1v1 tournies were banning the use of WS+BM forcing people to pick one.

Also your point about troll unguent is the exact one I'm making, it's covered by all this sustain, and then made better with all the passive regen built in. I agree that troll unguent isn't that strong alone. Anyone saying that, that is what needs to be nerfed clearly doesn't understand what's compounding with it.We agree on this point but the only thing I want to repeat is even with this ranger still struggles to survive an aggression or a 1V1. So if they really want to decrease it they have to be really careful.

Against the stupidity of current Weaver, pre-nerf holo, and war. Sure, but against pretty much anything else you can play defensive and contest a point. If you don't allow a decap, or push them off point you win. You don't need to "win" a fight to win in conquest, and that's part of the problem why stuff like this is problematic. Things like this needs to be pointed out especially now in this transitional time, otherwise we set a precedent for unhealthy play.

All in all Ranger can evade/block/sustain more than even a mirage. Do the math, calculate the on demand options, you can even include blinds from a condi mirage, and ranger still has better sustain on damage based builds. This isn't to say condi mirage doesn't have it's own problems that have yet to be addressed, but if people are going to say Mirage has to much evasion; this is a huge double standard and leaves quite a big large question about ranger.Comparing ranger and mirage is pushing it a bit too far don't you think? I mean if you look only at regen numbers yes I agree. Ranger has more passive healing. But if you look at the rest evade and blocks and defense (chaos armor) mesmer is far ahead. I mean have you looked at the scepter frequency and mirage endurance? And how about comparing the ability to the pressure during the evade?I can point other professions doing better if you think ranger is really that strong.

I mean... I didn't really want to get into a class based comparison, so I'll try to be brief. I've said Condi Mirage has balance issues, but I don't think evasion is one of them and frankly; No. It's not to much. Evades and blocks are superior on Ranger.Mirage has: 2 evades, 1 hard on demand block or evade with 1 out of 2 weapon sets; regardless of spec, distortion which costs all your resources, and a mirror on heal which tells you exactly where and when he's going to evade, with less endurance regen via worse vigor uptime, and no passive. While Ranger gets 2 evades, multiple hard blocks and evades on 1 of 2 weapon sets (and has historically had meta builds that had 2 weapon sets with on demand block/evasion), passive regen, AND better vigor uptime, Then utilities where you can have your pick of signet of stone or lightning reflexes, and then smoke assault if soul beast, on top of GS auto regen.Even if Mirage had more on demand cooldowns, which it doesn't; Ranger still wins out with endurance regen.Just to compare: Even if we were to go the absolute worst, with traited scepter (which no one does because everyone is obsessed with chaos) we are still talking about a one hit counter. Compared to ranger GS which can block multiple hits and multi hit attacks, and can delay the flip over evade to deny multiple important cooldowns... All while the cooldown difference between those block skills being 4 seconds, on account of BM being almost as bloated as WS so everyone having it traited.

In regards to Hunter's Shot: No, the stealth is not shorter than the 30s cds on other professions.
The Prestige - 30 sec for 3 seconds of stealth.Hide in Shadows - 30 seconds for 3 seconds of stealth.Blinding Powder - 40 seconds for 3 seconds of stealth.Shadow Gust - 30 seconds for 3 seconds of stealth.Decoy - 40 seconds of 3 seconds of stealth.Signet of Midnight - 30 seconds for
2
seconds of stealth.I'm not even going to mention the awfulness that is Veil outside of WvW coordinated shenanigans.
One to one, the only thing that compares to Hunter's shot in terms of on demand stealth are elites and Shadow refuge.where Sneak Gyro is like 9 seconds for a cooldown of 45Shadow meld is 6 for 45 then 45 for 3 (Cuz charge)and Mass invis which is 6 for 60.
All While Hunters shot is 12 seconds for 3.On average Most stealth skills follow a rule of 10 seconds per 1 second of stealth, which hunter's shot does not; in a 60 second period you can get off five '3 second chunks' of stealth for a total of 15 seconds of stealth. This is on the same level as Shadow Refuge; and SR has all it's duration clumped into one instance of stealth, and involves sitting in a spot you can be knocked out of and screams "Come AoE this spot".Mesmer can increase stealth, thief can spam it. Both can get benefits for being in stealth and none of the profession you mentioned are dead like ranger lb if it dispells. You also did not mention some aoe and other effects on those skills.

The stealth roamer classes that are the primary users of stealth, should probably be able to stealth. Yet ranger out paces untraited mesmer with 1 weapon, and traited only adds 1.5 seconds to every 3 second cooldown; so great 4.5 seconds of stealth for a 30 second cooldown. This is still far inferior to 3 seconds on a 12 second cooldown.Even then, the only build that can make use of it is a core build, that builds itself to hide a frankly easily avoidable one shot that is countered simply by map awareness and sound, and has LESS evade than even mirage.

Regardless I strongly disagree, with the notion that ranger suffers

more

from being revealed. With the amount of defensive cooldowns, and passive sustain for both health and endurance afforded to rangers; Thief and Mesmer are far more at risk when revealed. Although, admittedly thief may have more evasion than even ranger; but usually not if they are specced for perma stealth.

As for not mentioning AoEs for the others, that's because you can simply move out of it or your opponent has to guess where you are. Only Shadow Refuge (and I guess veil; lol) require you to sit in an obvious location for 4-5 seconds.

(Also it's funny that you mention it being dispelled since ranger is one of the biggest offenders of dispelling it. So not only to get they get the best easy access stealth skill, but they also can remove it from others.)

Which alone isn't an issue, the issue with ranger comes when you have:
your pet doing decent passive damage through this,and
the REAL problem; this adding significantly to the sustain, which also compounds on the cover for things like troll unguent.As I said, ranger has to blow multiple defensive cd to make it work so not a real issue.

Everyone needs to blow their defensive CDs to avoid burst, and everyone needs to cover their heal.Ranger just has a lot of tools for a long heal, which means they live longer; which is unhealthy for conqeust. Either way by the end of that process, Ranger passively out paces the resources of most classes that don't just naturally dunk it... Which is still most of the roster.

Plus unreliable because it doesn't proc on a defensive cooldown? I mean my entire premise is about the survivability being to much. If you've forced your opponent to block or defend themselves in someway, that is more time given to the ranger for cooldowns and regen to come back. If a player blocks and you don't shoot, you have the stealth and the time they spent blocking.If they block your shot, you still get the time they spent blocking. Also this is comparing defensive skills to counter something on a 12 second cooldown that isn't a main source of damage burst.Hum how often do you see people dodging / blocking the arrow on purpose? Most of the time (probably > 95%) people do not even block/dodge it intentionally.

You could say the same thing about any skill in the game, unless it's a big hit that's actively avoided. If you didn't shoot it at a vulnerable time that's a bit on you; and it doesn't matter anyways it comes back up in 12 seconds. Besides it's easy to ping a different target occupied with someone else, or ping a pet.

Also any weaknesses Stealth has (like tether) is a weakness for any of the other skills too. Hunter's Shot isn't alone in that.Also none of those skills give stealth to the enemy on reflect and also none of those skills can miss (blind, blocks, dodge, out of range). So it does have a shorter cd and more weaknesses.

Very few classes have reflect, most reflect is obvious, anyone who reflects it is probably going to instantly reveal themselves since as you pointed out "no one particularly intends to avoid it", and I hardly consider "hit someone with this every 12 seconds" to be much of a weakness unless your goal is to stealth out of combat, because in combat: Even if you whiff twice you're still getting better stealth than any of the skills I mentioned, bundled into 1 weapon that is also a good damage weapon.

Some classes can deal with it easily sure, I'd argue that most of those are overturned as well tho. Pet suffers vs condi bomb, and Condi is an issue in and of itself. However, at least in the case of
Symbol guard and Condi mirage they still have to dump quite a few cooldowns in to focus it
. SpellBreaker, and Fire Weaver are really the only ones who kill pet for "free", but that's 2 classes out of the entire game, and 2 more classes who have to pump their resources into it.I am not sure about the meaning of this sentence. As I said they do not even target it specifically. They use spells the same way a fire weaver will. They go on ranger and the pets gets damaged because he stands in the area. I can also add reaper spin and probably look for more. All those skills are not targeting pet and still killing it.

Symbol Gaurds cleave, but if the pet is not right on the ranger and being harassed the guard has to pump it's cooldowns into the pet and requires both to be in close proximity. (I personally have used this to make symbolgaurds blow cooldowns while kiting them, and when pet was close to dead I swapped and went aggro.)Condi mirage is mostly single target outside of staff, and bounces prioritize allies. If a mirage wants to condi your pet they have to focus it.

Pet isn't as bad as condi mirage clones in terms of passive bs, but at least clones die in one auto string; pet doesn't, and pet can force defensive cooldowns out of anyone running demo, marauder, or zerk amulets that isn't warrior, or a medium armor other than thief, because they really can't tank the hit.Also if you really want to compare it to mesmer ranger is bound to a longer cd.

Something people do not realize is that ranger has lower effects and overspecializing makes you really weak in a lot of domains unlike other profession thus Ranger main role is to move from point to point using his diversity of skills and help his team win. Sometimes you have a side noder ranger but I see like 2 per season. Ranger is worst in 1V1 than many professions, it is worst in teamfight than many professions, it is a worst fronlane, healer, buffer than many professions. You look at ANY role and you have better.

If you look at PvE (group content) it becomes even more obvious. Ranger has a lower dps and a lower survivability than other professions. It just is more balanced than the rest (I mean well rounded like if you looked at a personality test weird star graph, it has a lot of points everywhere but does not shine anywhere, not balanced in the sense of profession balance).

Edit : Did give some precision like PvE (group content not open world), Added chaos armor on mesmer and tried to explain the graph thing, I do not know the word for this sorry :sweat_smile: )

You're right, it isn't the best 1v1er but it has some good matchups. I wouldn't call it the worst team fighter but sure, it's no necro/gaurd, and it may not be a support class.But you do know what it is? A bruiser that is dangerously close to a bunker, and for the few matchups you lose you can out-sustain the rest of the game while sitting on point. This is unhealthy for conquest and why it will be a problem if it's not one now.

Also PvE is irrelevant here, this is PvP forums. But it seems like more than ever is A-net committed to splitting the game modes.

I'm sry but are u playing the same game as everyone else? Do u know how to play mirage? U stating that ranger has better evasion and blocks is absolutely ridiculous. Maybe ranger has more blocks to a degree but evasion lmao. Every single mirage I've faced spammed multiple clones and as soon as u hit the real mirage poof it's gone and is in a different location ie swept with its clone so u quickly find the real one and maybe get a hit off before poof gone again and it its place a clone and then repeat for rest of the fight. Mirage has probobly the highest evasion in the game due to this broken mechanic that only the anet design team would be ...... enough to implement lol.

Daishi.6027 · December 27, 2019

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:I'm sry but are u playing the same game as everyone else? Do u know how to play mirage? U stating that ranger has better evasion and blocks is absolutely ridiculous. Maybe ranger has more blocks to a degree but evasion lmao. Every single mirage I've faced spammed multiple clones and as soon as u hit the real mirage poof it's gone and is in a different location ie swept with its clone so u quickly find the real one and maybe get a hit off before poof gone again and it its place a clone and then repeat for rest of the fight. Mirage has probobly the highest evasion in the game due to this broken mechanic that only the anet design team would be ...... enough to implement lol.

Lol. Admits they get lost in clones, and doesn't mention any specific skills to back up their point. "I find real one a hit then: IT'S GONE!"... "Highest evasion!" even tho same duration.

Only 2 skills shuffle player with clones. one is on a 35 second cooldown, the other puts them all neatly in front of you to cleave.I don't play condi mirage, but I kill enough of them and understand the class well enough.

Also, I'm just counting defensive cooldowns in general, and on a whole regardless of the type. The point is Ranger does have more on demand, which is all you need to mitigate big hits.

By the by, around season, 9- I think? Prior to the heavy mirage nerfs, there was a discussion calculating the up-time of mirage evades vs daredevil. Not only did mirage end up having less than daredevil but SoulBeast was calculated to have on par defensive uptime BEFORE mesmer was nerfed. Yes that was including blocks; but what does that say about now?

storm.3120 · December 27, 2019

@Daishi.6027 said:
@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:I'm sry but are u playing the same game as everyone else? Do u know how to play mirage? U stating that ranger has better evasion and blocks is absolutely ridiculous. Maybe ranger has more blocks to a degree but evasion lmao. Every single mirage I've faced spammed multiple clones and as soon as u hit the real mirage poof it's gone and is in a different location ie swept with its clone so u quickly find the real one and maybe get a hit off before poof gone again and it its place a clone and then repeat for rest of the fight. Mirage has probobly the highest evasion in the game due to this broken mechanic that only the anet design team would be ...... enough to implement lol.

Lol. Admits they get lost in clones, and doesn't mention any specific skills to back up their point. "I find real one a hit then: IT'S GONE!"... "Highest evasion!" even tho same duration.Fatality.Funny how he is in every thief thread complaining about complaints and still hate mesmers regardless of facts you bring or how wrong/clueless he is

Psycoprophet.8107 · December 27, 2019

@Daishi.6027 said:
@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:I'm sry but are u playing the same game as everyone else? Do u know how to play mirage? U stating that ranger has better evasion and blocks is absolutely ridiculous. Maybe ranger has more blocks to a degree but evasion lmao. Every single mirage I've faced spammed multiple clones and as soon as u hit the real mirage poof it's gone and is in a different location ie swept with its clone so u quickly find the real one and maybe get a hit off before poof gone again and it its place a clone and then repeat for rest of the fight. Mirage has probobly the highest evasion in the game due to this broken mechanic that only the anet design team would be ...... enough to implement lol.

Lol. Admits they get lost in clones, and doesn't mention any specific skills to back up their point. "I find real one a hit then: IT'S GONE!"... "Highest evasion!" even tho same duration.

Only 2 skills shuffle player with clones. one is on a 35 second cooldown, the other puts them all neatly in front of you to cleave.I don't play condi mirage, but I kill enough of them and understand the class well enough.

Also, I'm just counting defensive cooldowns in general, and on a whole regardless of the type. The point is Ranger does have more on demand, which is all you need to mitigate big hits.

By the by, around season, 9- I think? Prior to the heavy mirage nerfs, there was a discussion calculating the up-time of mirage evades vs daredevil. Not only did mirage end up having less than daredevil but SoulBeast was calculated to have on par defensive uptime BEFORE mesmer was nerfed. Yes that was including blocks; but what does that say about now?

I dont get lost in clones,dont put words in someone's mouth our try and twist what they said that's a pathetic way to discuss things. I know where the teal mirage as I stated so lost in Cline's? Yeah. Problem is when u attempt to attack the real mesmer it just swaps places with its clone over and over essentially perma evading and I'm reading mirage players saying ranger has more evades?Man this community is somthing else.Games got no hope.

Leonidrex.5649 · December 27, 2019

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:
@Daishi.6027 said:
@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I'm sry but are u playing the same game as everyone else? Do u know how to play mirage? U stating that ranger has better evasion and blocks is absolutely ridiculous. Maybe ranger has more blocks to a degree but evasion lmao. Every single mirage I've faced spammed multiple clones and as soon as u hit the real mirage poof it's gone and is in a different location ie swept with its clone so u quickly find the real one and maybe get a hit off before poof gone again and it its place a clone and then repeat for rest of the fight. Mirage has probobly the highest evasion in the game due to this broken mechanic that only the anet design team would be ...... enough to implement lol.

Lol. Admits they get lost in clones, and doesn't mention any specific skills to back up their point. "I find real one a hit then: IT'S GONE!"... "Highest evasion!" even tho same duration.

Only 2 skills shuffle player with clones. one is on a 35 second cooldown, the other puts them all neatly in front of you to cleave.I don't play condi mirage, but I kill enough of them and understand the class well enough.

Also, I'm just counting defensive cooldowns in general, and on a whole regardless of the type. The point is Ranger does have more on demand, which is all you need to mitigate big hits.

By the by, around season, 9- I think? Prior to the heavy mirage nerfs, there was a discussion calculating the up-time of mirage evades vs daredevil. Not only did mirage end up having less than daredevil but SoulBeast was calculated to have on par defensive uptime BEFORE mesmer was nerfed. Yes that was including blocks; but what does that say about now?

I dont get lost in clones,dont put words in someone's mouth our try and twist what they said that's a pathetic way to discuss things. I know where the teal mirage as I stated so lost in Cline's? Yeah. Problem is when u attempt to attack the real mesmer it just swaps places with its clone over and over essentially perma evading and I'm reading mirage players saying ranger has more evades?Man this community is somthing else.Games got no hope.

Ofc they have no hope. People like you ensure that there is no hope.Mirage cant just switch their place with the clone willi nilly like you make it sound lol.And mirage doesnt have evade uptime like peeps like you would like to believe, for some reason high and might, the comunity hits the clones instead of mesmer and assumes it to count towards their "evade uptime"

YOUR WORDS :Every single mirage I've faced spammed multiple clones and as soon as u hit the real mirage poof it's gone and is in a different location ie swept with its clone so u quickly find the real one and maybe get a hit off before poof gone again and it its place a clone and then repeat for rest of the fight. Mirage has probobly the highest evasion in the game due to this broken mechanic that only the anet design team would be ...... enough to implement lol.

What you wrote sums up forums nicely. Lack of knowledge. Lack of understanding.Clear bias.Lack of skill.and 0 will to adopt and overcome.just whine whine whine

Arheundel.6451 · December 27, 2019

@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@Psycoprophet.8107 said:
@Daishi.6027 said:
@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I'm sry but are u playing the same game as everyone else? Do u know how to play mirage? U stating that ranger has better evasion and blocks is absolutely ridiculous. Maybe ranger has more blocks to a degree but evasion lmao. Every single mirage I've faced spammed multiple clones and as soon as u hit the real mirage poof it's gone and is in a different location ie swept with its clone so u quickly find the real one and maybe get a hit off before poof gone again and it its place a clone and then repeat for rest of the fight. Mirage has probobly the highest evasion in the game due to this broken mechanic that only the anet design team would be ...... enough to implement lol.