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Soulbeast post balance patch

bigo.9037bigo.9037 Member ✭✭✭✭

Hi everyone.

In this thread, I would like to discuss what we could/would like to do to soulbeast/ranger specifically to nerf it in a reasonable manner, or make good changes that will make for fun and interesting game play. You can comment about whatever changes you would like to see and we can discuss.

So, me personally, I would like to see changes to stealth on ranger in general.
As I've come to dislike stealth as a mechanic more, I feel like it is necessary to cut down on stealth up-time for any classes that use it.

Ideally, you should have no more than 3s of stealth every.. 20 or 25 seconds in a general rotation. And no longer than 3s per stealth. That's my opinion.

I see 2 ways of doing this:
1, change the smoke scale pet and give it a different combo field, perhaps like lightning so you can daze with leaps.

2, change longbow #3, hunters shot and have it do something else that could provide some sort of temporary protection in the same way that stealth does. Could be an evade similar to what shortbow has, or a backwards roll like lighting reflexes that does not have an evade so there's room for counter play, but you still have an ability to reposition yourself without stealth.

Lastly, I want siamoth and pig pets f2 skill to be changed so that you don't get plasma or stealth, but plasma or a random object just like thief steal has depending on the class. But since it's pet, it should be random.

There are a lot of changes I would like to see overall, but right now these are the most interesting changes that I would want to see done first.

Comments

  • bigo.9037bigo.9037 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bigo.9037 said:
    Hi everyone.

    In this thread, I would like to discuss what we could/would like to do to soulbeast/ranger specifically to nerf it in a reasonable manner, or make good changes that will make for fun and interesting game play. You can comment about whatever changes you would like to see and we can discuss.

    So, me personally, I would like to see changes to stealth on ranger in general.
    As I've come to dislike stealth as a mechanic more, I feel like it is necessary to cut down on stealth up-time for any classes that use it.

    Ideally, you should have no more than 3s of stealth every.. 20 or 25 seconds in a general rotation. And no longer than 3s per stealth. That's my opinion.

    I see 2 ways of doing this:
    1, change the smoke scale pet and give it a different combo field, perhaps like lightning so you can daze with leaps.

    2, change longbow #3, hunters shot and have it do something else that could provide some sort of temporary protection in the same way that stealth does. Could be an evade similar to what shortbow has, or a backwards roll like lighting reflexes that does not have an evade so there's room for counter play, but you still have an ability to reposition yourself without stealth.

    Lastly, I want siamoth and pig pets f2 skill to be changed so that you don't get plasma or stealth, but plasma or a random object just like thief steal has depending on the class. But since it's pet, it should be random.

    There are a lot of changes I would like to see overall, but right now these are the most interesting changes that I would want to see done first.

    Another thing I ofc also want to see is the removal of all passive procs, outside of runes on all classes. On ranger those would be the ws trait that auto stunbreaks every 60s in pve/wvw. MM traitline stone signet proc, and NM protection / weakness proc. Those should be changed so nothing is passive. For example, on nm, you could just make it so you get the protection from pet swap, and you apply weakness in 250 range radius when swapping pets.

  • Just quick thoughts for discussion:

    I think the biggest thing that needs to change is how soulbeast works with pet merging. Right now you can use your pet's beast skill, immediately merge, use your beast skill, then unmerge in time to use your pet's beast skill again. There is no trade off. I hope a trade off is what they are targeting.

    Off the top of my head maybe there could be a ~5 second cool down before you can use beast skills upon merge or unmerge. That way people can't immediately use smokefield/leap and are vulnerable for a bit if ANET doesn't want to change the smokescale. I agree on removing plasma, it's strong with WvW stats available. Or just change moa stance (maybe make it share boons you receive with party instead).

    Prelude lash, swoop, and leap beastmode skills should all have their cooldowns increased. The amount of extra damage traits also need to be toned down, it's too easy for ranger to have over 2700 toughness, 2600 power, 60% crit, 24k health, and 230% crit damage. Rangers also have better stunbreak skills then other classes which need to be looked at across all classes.

    As for bug fixes, I use Axe/Axe and I hope they fix the bug of dead bodies blocking axe skills, though I'm sure this impacts more than axe.

    Across the classes I agree on hoping they remove passive procs/invulns. I'd also like to see the removal non-pbaoe or target aoe skills that can be used when not facing the target. I hope they change boons so they scale based on specific gear stats, i.e. Might only give 30 might per stack if you are at a full offensive threshold and reduces effectiveness the more defensive stats you go, and create a new boon stat that affects how long the boons you give to others last so you have to balance between two boon duration stats. If they want to let condi stay bursty then I hope they let it be affected by toughness but create a third toughness piercing stat so that way condi is more balanced with Power/Precision/Ferocity requirements (assuming they balance condi class skills to create more burst for all classes.)

    Lastly from a wvw perspective I hope they remove rally off NPC at the very least.

  • bigo.9037bigo.9037 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @aathomas.4638 said:
    Just quick thoughts for discussion:

    I think the biggest thing that needs to change is how soulbeast works with pet merging. Right now you can use your pet's beast skill, immediately merge, use your beast skill, then unmerge in time to use your pet's beast skill again. There is no trade off. I hope a trade off is what they are targeting.

    Off the top of my head maybe there could be a ~5 second cool down before you can use beast skills upon merge or unmerge. That way people can't immediately use smokefield/leap and are vulnerable for a bit if ANET doesn't want to change the smokescale. I agree on removing plasma, it's strong with WvW stats available. Or just change moa stance (maybe make it share boons you receive with party instead).

    Prelude lash, swoop, and leap beastmode skills should all have their cooldowns increased. The amount of extra damage traits also need to be toned down, it's too easy for ranger to have over 2700 toughness, 2600 power, 60% crit, 24k health, and 230% crit damage. Rangers also have better stunbreak skills then other classes which need to be looked at across all classes.

    As for bug fixes, I use Axe/Axe and I hope they fix the bug of dead bodies blocking axe skills, though I'm sure this impacts more than axe.

    Across the classes I agree on hoping they remove passive procs/invulns. I'd also like to see the removal non-pbaoe or target aoe skills that can be used when not facing the target. I hope they change boons so they scale based on specific gear stats, i.e. Might only give 30 might per stack if you are at a full offensive threshold and reduces effectiveness the more defensive stats you go, and create a new boon stat that affects how long the boons you give to others last so you have to balance between two boon duration stats. If they want to let condi stay bursty then I hope they let it be affected by toughness but create a third toughness piercing stat so that way condi is more balanced with Power/Precision/Ferocity requirements (assuming they balance condi class skills to create more burst for all classes.)

    Lastly from a wvw perspective I hope they remove rally off NPC at the very least.

    I feel like 5 seconds is way too long. I don't think that is what makes soulbeast op. If anything, just make the merge cooldown longer, or have some other drawback when it comes to spec specific skills.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So let's put a 5 second cool down on deadeye to keep them from shooting immediately after going into stealth?

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • bigo.9037bigo.9037 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    So let's put a 5 second cool down on deadeye to keep them from shooting immediately after going into stealth?

    No, the problem is the elite which removes reveal, and the stealth on dodge. This is not a DE thread, it's a soulbeast thread.

  • bigo.9037bigo.9037 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    @bigo.9037 So what are you buffing on ranger? hmmm? "Rangers(+Elites) and Necros(+Elites) are almost nowhere to be seen on either side." lol

    "In the name of science, here are the finalist and semi-finalist team compositions from the last 6 mATs.

    Now some caveats on these:

    • I couldn't find a few of the team-compositions, in particular the first NA October mAT. If anyone has these, I'll merge them into the numbers.
    • Because of this, the comparison between EU and NA is not "like for like". A "10" on NA is equivalent to a "12" on EU.
    • It's important to understand the numbers in context. While 15 is a bigger number than 12, when it's out of a total of 205, the difference is meaningless.
    • If it says "Thief" or "Mesmer", it means "Core". Elites are specified separately.
    • mAT is not Ranked. It's a very different game, since you've got 5 people on voice-comms who have practiced together and specifically chosen their classes for a particular purpose as part of a 5-man team. In general, in this scenario it's better to be super-specialised for one purpose, rather than playing a self-sufficient, jack-of-all-trades which is often better for solo-Q in ranked, where you can't rely on your team-mates.
    • For the finalists, I took the compositions they used in the final, not any earlier rounds.
    • Remember that many of these will be the same players over and over in each tournament. It's not actually 205 different players counted here, its probably closer to 40.


    So, some conclusions to draw from this:

    • Firebrand and Herald most represented, not hugely surprising
    • The FB numbers are waaaay higher in NA than in EU, especially when you look at the Duo numbers: 7 out of 18 NA teams were stacking FBs, while only 1 out of 23 EU teams did. FB is super-meta in NA, but is just one of the crowd in EU. You're 5x more likely to a face a double thief/DD in EU than you are a double FB, and nearly half of EU teams had no FB at all.
    • EU in general has a much wider spread of class representation
    • NA has a way bigger tendency to stack classes
    • Mirage and Holosmith still both very well represented, despite whines to the contrary
    • Thief/Daredevil and SpellB/Warrior are a big deal on EU, but are almost non-existent on NA. If you count Thief/DD/Deadeye together, it is by far the highest represented class on EU.
    • Rangers(+Elites) and Necros(+Elites) are almost nowhere to be seen on either side.
    • Weaver numbers are surprisingly low, despite how much attention they get from the community

    It's interesting to me how different EU and NA are, especially how EU is all about Thief/Rev rotate-and-spike comps, while NA is all about spamming FBs, and how Thief/Warrior variants are big on EU but non-existent on NA.

    This might also explain some differences in perception on the Forums about how strong certain comps are. Might it be the case that EU players are more concerned about how strong Thief is, and don't care about FB, while NA players are more concerned about how strong FB is and don't care about Thief?

    It's certainly a different world from Ranked though. Ranger and Necro variants are a regular feature in my ranked games (P2/3) but just aren't represented here.

    The full data breakdown:

    Interesting data, but soulbeast is obviously very different in spvp. I'm coming mostly from a wvw perspective. Soulbeast is close to being as strong as holo in wvw, and when you consider soulbeast has an easier time fighting some specs holo has trouble with, you could make the case they are equally as strong, but due to rock paper scissors, lose the 1v1 mu.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bigo.9037 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    So let's put a 5 second cool down on deadeye to keep them from shooting immediately after going into stealth?

    No, the problem is the elite which removes reveal, and the stealth on dodge. This is not a DE thread, it's a soulbeast thread.

    Yeah, I know it's not a DE thread. My point is that if you're going to place a 5 sec cool down constraint on what is arguably the main purpose of the SB build, then you should also limit other classes with the same cool down penalty.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • bigo.9037bigo.9037 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @bigo.9037 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    So let's put a 5 second cool down on deadeye to keep them from shooting immediately after going into stealth?

    No, the problem is the elite which removes reveal, and the stealth on dodge. This is not a DE thread, it's a soulbeast thread.

    Yeah, I know it's not a DE thread. My point is that if you're going to place a 5 sec cool down constraint on what is arguably the main purpose of the SB build, then you should also limit other classes with the same cool down penalty.

    Okay yea, I agree. Which is why I also argued that it would be too much.

  • Andy.5981Andy.5981 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 28, 2020

    Couple of things. Your thread post is confusing.

    "Soulbeast post balance patch"?

    We haven't had the big balance patch so how on earth can anyone discuss stuff that needs addressing after it when we dont know what they're going to do?

    Secondly why create a new thread when in December you posted another thread stating that Rangers were OP and calling for nerfs?

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/94281/soulbeast-is-quite-op-wvw-balance

    Personally and as you keep saying, this is my opinion..., at this stage of the game I dont think calling for nerfs/buffs to any class is a productive venture. Anet will do what Anet wants to do. After the 'balance' patch lands, then perhaps is the time to discuss what needs to be tinkered with. At the moment it is far too late in the day.

  • bigo.9037bigo.9037 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Andy.5981 said:
    Couple of things. Your thread post is confusing.

    "Soulbeast post balance patch"?

    We haven't had the big balance patch so how on earth can anyone discuss stuff that needs addressing after it when we dont know what they're going to do?

    Secondly why create a new thread when in December you posted another thread stating that Rangers were OP and calling for nerfs?

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/94281/soulbeast-is-quite-op-wvw-balance

    Personally and as you keep saying, this is my opinion..., at this stage of the game I dont think calling for nerfs/buffs to any class is a productive venture. Anet will do what Anet wants to do. After the 'balance' patch lands, then perhaps is the time to discuss what needs to be tinkered with. At the moment it is far too late in the day.

    I'm not calling for nerfs to ranger in this thread, I think you've misunderstood.

    I'm asking you guys, what changes would you like to see WHEN the patch hits. Since all classes are getting changes, what changes are you hoping ranger receives?

    And like I said, I'm hoping for changes to stealth so ranger doesn't have to rely on it so much.

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I would be for removing immunites. Like Signet of Stone x2

    Very high dmg reduction is ok , but no complete immunity. (Dolyakstance+protection is almost the same)

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The balance patch is supposed to be in less than one month. Now it is too late to request anything.

    If the devs are interested in our suggestions they can make an email campaign with a questionary so we can fill it to our contempt.

    I see nothing has change, same people saying same things.

  • Xenash.1245Xenash.1245 Member ✭✭✭

    Personally I think talking about nerfing stealth is fair even if I personally don't know where I stand on that talking point, but I don't think it's fair to consider nerfing the rangers ability to stealth when considering a mesmer and thiefs currently state of being able to stealth for quite a long time to put it lightly.

    When talking about pet nerfs I think it's best to also talk about buffs to many of the ranger pets that are never used as well, as it would give ranger more options to fall back on without being hard neutered as they would be with the current assortment of pets in the game currently. There's of course pets that are underutilized in my opinion like spiders for example, but those pets aren't necessarily good by themselves but can just be good in niche situations to take someone by surprise.

    In my opinion I think it's rather hard to balance anything really definitive about the classes when considering the games current state, there's just too much that all the classes can do that will hard stop whatever an opposing player might do. Some of the simple and abovious example would be damage immunity's, condi bombs, one shot builds, etc.

  • Eurantien.4632Eurantien.4632 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 29, 2020

    Ranger is the only class right now capable of holding its own vs revenant comps. Revenant is dominating the meta. Your changes will make revenant EVEN better due to ranger not having anyway to escape. And rev can even outplay your stealth with reveal... We already have to combo our stealth... and we have vuln frames while it happens. There are a lot of ways to outplay ranger stealth. That's not the problem.

  • bigo.9037bigo.9037 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Eurantien.4632 said:
    Ranger is the only class right now capable of holding its own vs revenant comps. Revenant is dominating the meta. Your changes will make revenant EVEN better due to ranger not having anyway to escape. And rev can even outplay your stealth with reveal... We already have to combo our stealth... and we have vuln frames while it happens. There are a lot of ways to outplay ranger stealth. That's not the problem.

    Again, mostly wvw perspective. I do think stealth in general needs to be toned down though, as any build not running reveal gets countered by it, and if you're fighting another spec with stealth, whoever has more of it has a pretty clear advantage.

  • GUFF.5692GUFF.5692 Member ✭✭

    I think ranger is going to be extra pummeled by the nerf bat for this mega balance patch. The outcry against them on the wvw forums, reddit and in game has been immense.
    That said, I agree stealth needs some major work. Some smokescale adjustments are definitely in order. You know something is wrong when nearly every single ranger is using the same kitten pet.
    I think your longbow idea could work well. I would actually consider it somewhat of an upgrade since the reliability of hunter's shot is not as high as it could be.

  • bigo.9037bigo.9037 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @GUFF.5692 said:
    I think ranger is going to be extra pummeled by the nerf bat for this mega balance patch. The outcry against them on the wvw forums, reddit and in game has been immense.
    That said, I agree stealth needs some major work. Some smokescale adjustments are definitely in order. You know something is wrong when nearly every single ranger is using the same kitten pet.
    I think your longbow idea could work well. I would actually consider it somewhat of an upgrade since the reliability of hunter's shot is not as high as it could be.

    Yea. Tried using another sustain pet (brown bear) for a tanky sustain build with stance share for group play, and the sustain was barely any better than my regular build that uses less defensive traitlines and utilities.. swapped to smokescale and suddenly sustain was improved dramatically cus stealth gives me a 3s window where I can't be targeted and have time to relocate and recharge skills.

    Particularly in group play, stealth is too strong cus you can't do anything against it unless you have reveal built into your setup.

  • I don't think Anet will change "many" things about Ranger, the profession is in a good balance point, it is versatile and there are many build variants that can all be used, this is balance for me.

    Coming to the point of the speech, what needs to be reviewed for me are 2 things.
    1. First, the dependence of the profession of using WS for condition cleaning, my solution to this would be to allow Seed of Life to remove 2 conditions and bring Celestial Avatar back to 10 seconds, this would make Druid better.
    2. The second, fix the gazelle.

    @bigo.9037 said:
    Ideally, you should have no more than 3s of stealth every.. 20 or 25 seconds in a general rotation. And no longer than 3s per stealth. That's my opinion.

    I see 2 ways of doing this:
    1, change the smoke scale pet and give it a different combo field, perhaps like lightning so you can daze with leaps.

    2, change longbow #3, hunters shot and have it do something else that could provide some sort of temporary protection in the same way that stealth does. Could be an evade similar to what shortbow has, or a backwards roll like lighting reflexes that does not have an evade so there's room for counter play, but you still have an ability to reposition yourself without stealth.

    Lastly, I want siamoth and pig pets f2 skill to be changed so that you don't get plasma or stealth, but plasma or a random object just like thief steal has depending on the class. But since it's pet, it should be random.

    1. I mean, if you want a different combo field, change pets don't require unnecessary changes.
      https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Juvenile_Electric_Wyvern
    2. Such a change would be OP, there is no counterplay to a dodge, invisibility can be revealed.
    3. A strange request here, what the thief steals is never "random", can always steal from mesmers and always get plasma, the animal offers only 2 rng items and in addition these objects that it finds can also be stolen by opposing players, it's more than enough as counterplay, you don't need to make them useless.

    I understand your point of view, but these changes that you propose I consider unnecessary .. or at least this is not what should be changed to ensure that the profession does not have to depend on invisibility.
    From my point of view, however, I consider it more than normal that Ranger has invisibility among his abilities especially after the recent changes that Spada and GS have obtained, in which we have lost mobility and evasion.

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2020

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    I don't think Anet will change "many" things about Ranger, the profession is in a good balance point, it is versatile and there are many build variants that can all be used, this is balance for me.

    You are right

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    1. First, the dependence of the profession of using WS for condition cleaning,

    The strong dependence of WS for the cleanses is a mayor pain point for the ranger. If you main ranger the impossibility to find a viable build without that trainline burns any ranger very fast.

    Stealth itself has to be reworked, there are worst offenders in game whom abuse that mechanic. Ranger does not need to nerf it's very limited access to stealth but add more sources so the ranger is not forced to equip that pet always.

  • bigo.9037bigo.9037 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    I don't think Anet will change "many" things about Ranger, the profession is in a good balance point, it is versatile and there are many build variants that can all be used, this is balance for me.

    You are right

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    1. First, the dependence of the profession of using WS for condition cleaning,

    The strong dependence of WS for the cleanses is a mayor pain point for the ranger. If you main ranger the impossibility to find a viable build without that trainline burns any ranger very fast.

    Stealth itself has to be reworked, there are worst offenders in game whom abuse that mechanic. Ranger does not need to nerf it's very limited access to stealth but add more sources so the ranger is not forced to equip that pet always.

    You're gonna risk giving rangers too much of it if they stack all the sources together..

  • @anduriell.6280 said:
    The strong dependence of WS for the cleanses is a mayor pain point for the ranger. If you main ranger the impossibility to find a viable build without that trainline burns any ranger very fast.

    In true Anet style, they'll nerf WS long before they would dream of boosting any other traitline when it comes to condi cleanse, in a classic shortbow/longbow way. Because reasons.

  • @anduriell.6280 said:

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    I don't think Anet will change "many" things about Ranger, the profession is in a good balance point, it is versatile and there are many build variants that can all be used, this is balance for me.

    You are right

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    1. First, the dependence of the profession of using WS for condition cleaning,

    The strong dependence of WS for the cleanses is a mayor pain point for the ranger. If you main ranger the impossibility to find a viable build without that trainline burns any ranger very fast.

    Stealth itself has to be reworked, there are worst offenders in game whom abuse that mechanic. Ranger does not need to nerf it's very limited access to stealth but add more sources so the ranger is not forced to equip that pet always.

    I think the problem is not the sources of the invisibility or Smokescale, excluding the gazelle, any valid alternative that could be used on a Dps build has been nerfed too much and other valid alternatives do not give appropriate static or skills suitable for a Dps build for example Cheetah and Sand Lion.

    For example:
    Being able to use Savannah Strike + Worldly Impact would make cheetah a more than viable alternative, or giving Stinging Sand Shield to the lion among the usable skills would make these two Meta pets right away.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2020

    @bigo.9037 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    @bigo.9037 So what are you buffing on ranger? hmmm? "Rangers(+Elites) and Necros(+Elites) are almost nowhere to be seen on either side." lol

    "In the name of science, here are the finalist and semi-finalist team compositions from the last 6 mATs.

    Now some caveats on these:

    • I couldn't find a few of the team-compositions, in particular the first NA October mAT. If anyone has these, I'll merge them into the numbers.
    • Because of this, the comparison between EU and NA is not "like for like". A "10" on NA is equivalent to a "12" on EU.
    • It's important to understand the numbers in context. While 15 is a bigger number than 12, when it's out of a total of 205, the difference is meaningless.
    • If it says "Thief" or "Mesmer", it means "Core". Elites are specified separately.
    • mAT is not Ranked. It's a very different game, since you've got 5 people on voice-comms who have practiced together and specifically chosen their classes for a particular purpose as part of a 5-man team. In general, in this scenario it's better to be super-specialised for one purpose, rather than playing a self-sufficient, jack-of-all-trades which is often better for solo-Q in ranked, where you can't rely on your team-mates.
    • For the finalists, I took the compositions they used in the final, not any earlier rounds.
    • Remember that many of these will be the same players over and over in each tournament. It's not actually 205 different players counted here, its probably closer to 40.


    So, some conclusions to draw from this:

    • Firebrand and Herald most represented, not hugely surprising
    • The FB numbers are waaaay higher in NA than in EU, especially when you look at the Duo numbers: 7 out of 18 NA teams were stacking FBs, while only 1 out of 23 EU teams did. FB is super-meta in NA, but is just one of the crowd in EU. You're 5x more likely to a face a double thief/DD in EU than you are a double FB, and nearly half of EU teams had no FB at all.
    • EU in general has a much wider spread of class representation
    • NA has a way bigger tendency to stack classes
    • Mirage and Holosmith still both very well represented, despite whines to the contrary
    • Thief/Daredevil and SpellB/Warrior are a big deal on EU, but are almost non-existent on NA. If you count Thief/DD/Deadeye together, it is by far the highest represented class on EU.
    • Rangers(+Elites) and Necros(+Elites) are almost nowhere to be seen on either side.
    • Weaver numbers are surprisingly low, despite how much attention they get from the community

    It's interesting to me how different EU and NA are, especially how EU is all about Thief/Rev rotate-and-spike comps, while NA is all about spamming FBs, and how Thief/Warrior variants are big on EU but non-existent on NA.

    This might also explain some differences in perception on the Forums about how strong certain comps are. Might it be the case that EU players are more concerned about how strong Thief is, and don't care about FB, while NA players are more concerned about how strong FB is and don't care about Thief?

    It's certainly a different world from Ranked though. Ranger and Necro variants are a regular feature in my ranked games (P2/3) but just aren't represented here.

    The full data breakdown:

    Interesting data, but soulbeast is obviously very different in spvp. I'm coming mostly from a wvw perspective. Soulbeast is close to being as strong as holo in wvw, and when you consider soulbeast has an easier time fighting some specs holo has trouble with, you could make the case they are equally as strong, but due to rock paper scissors, lose the 1v1 mu.

    WvW is a mass combat zone and Sb is wai comparatively well against all the other meta classes for small scale and roaming. Ppl can l2dodge and l2get friends.

    Enough with the sb qq, what r u gonna buff on core, druid and condition builds for small scale and roaming bc they all stink? What r u gonna buff on core, druid, condi builds and sb so they have a place in large teams? Hmm? Or are your ideas eternally fixated on meaningless duels inside a mode meant primarily for team based mass player combat?

    And do you have the secret patch notes? Why you even talking about “post” patch changes when the patch didn’t even drop yet and is still at least a month away?

    Edit- and I’m gonna help you bc you don’t seem aware...

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/95543/major-info-1-9-2020-stream

    There are going to be 800-900 split changes to skills and traits. There are going to be reworks. There is also going be a comparatively huge balance patch on top of what I just typed... So just wait like the rest of us and talk about “post patch” stuff until after the patch drops, bc this thread is as meaningful as us talking about balancing the nonexistent Ranger profession for gw3.

  • bigo.9037bigo.9037 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @bigo.9037 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    @bigo.9037 So what are you buffing on ranger? hmmm? "Rangers(+Elites) and Necros(+Elites) are almost nowhere to be seen on either side." lol

    "In the name of science, here are the finalist and semi-finalist team compositions from the last 6 mATs.

    Now some caveats on these:

    • I couldn't find a few of the team-compositions, in particular the first NA October mAT. If anyone has these, I'll merge them into the numbers.
    • Because of this, the comparison between EU and NA is not "like for like". A "10" on NA is equivalent to a "12" on EU.
    • It's important to understand the numbers in context. While 15 is a bigger number than 12, when it's out of a total of 205, the difference is meaningless.
    • If it says "Thief" or "Mesmer", it means "Core". Elites are specified separately.
    • mAT is not Ranked. It's a very different game, since you've got 5 people on voice-comms who have practiced together and specifically chosen their classes for a particular purpose as part of a 5-man team. In general, in this scenario it's better to be super-specialised for one purpose, rather than playing a self-sufficient, jack-of-all-trades which is often better for solo-Q in ranked, where you can't rely on your team-mates.
    • For the finalists, I took the compositions they used in the final, not any earlier rounds.
    • Remember that many of these will be the same players over and over in each tournament. It's not actually 205 different players counted here, its probably closer to 40.


    So, some conclusions to draw from this:

    • Firebrand and Herald most represented, not hugely surprising
    • The FB numbers are waaaay higher in NA than in EU, especially when you look at the Duo numbers: 7 out of 18 NA teams were stacking FBs, while only 1 out of 23 EU teams did. FB is super-meta in NA, but is just one of the crowd in EU. You're 5x more likely to a face a double thief/DD in EU than you are a double FB, and nearly half of EU teams had no FB at all.
    • EU in general has a much wider spread of class representation
    • NA has a way bigger tendency to stack classes
    • Mirage and Holosmith still both very well represented, despite whines to the contrary
    • Thief/Daredevil and SpellB/Warrior are a big deal on EU, but are almost non-existent on NA. If you count Thief/DD/Deadeye together, it is by far the highest represented class on EU.
    • Rangers(+Elites) and Necros(+Elites) are almost nowhere to be seen on either side.
    • Weaver numbers are surprisingly low, despite how much attention they get from the community

    It's interesting to me how different EU and NA are, especially how EU is all about Thief/Rev rotate-and-spike comps, while NA is all about spamming FBs, and how Thief/Warrior variants are big on EU but non-existent on NA.

    This might also explain some differences in perception on the Forums about how strong certain comps are. Might it be the case that EU players are more concerned about how strong Thief is, and don't care about FB, while NA players are more concerned about how strong FB is and don't care about Thief?

    It's certainly a different world from Ranked though. Ranger and Necro variants are a regular feature in my ranked games (P2/3) but just aren't represented here.

    The full data breakdown:

    Interesting data, but soulbeast is obviously very different in spvp. I'm coming mostly from a wvw perspective. Soulbeast is close to being as strong as holo in wvw, and when you consider soulbeast has an easier time fighting some specs holo has trouble with, you could make the case they are equally as strong, but due to rock paper scissors, lose the 1v1 mu.

    WvW is a mass combat zone and Sb is wai comparatively well against all the other meta classes for small scale and roaming. Ppl can l2dodge and l2get friends.

    Enough with the sb qq, what r u gonna buff on core, druid and condition builds for small scale and roaming bc they all stink? What r u gonna buff on core, druid, condi builds and sb so they have a place in large teams? Hmm? Or are your ideas eternally fixated on meaningless duels inside a mode meant primarily for team based mass player combat?

    And do you have the secret patch notes? Why you even talking about “post” patch changes when the patch didn’t even drop yet and is still at least a month away?

    Edit- and I’m gonna help you bc you don’t seem aware...

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/95543/major-info-1-9-2020-stream

    There are going to be 800-900 split changes to skills and traits. There are going to be reworks. There is also going be a comparatively huge balance patch on top of what I just typed... So just wait like the rest of us and talk about “post patch” stuff until after the patch drops, bc this thread is as meaningful as us talking about balancing the nonexistent Ranger profession for gw3.

    Sigh, here we go again for the 3rd time. Read my posts. I'm literally asking YOU what are you hoping for in the patch. I already posted what I would like to see.

    Stop asking me about core and druid. YOU tell ME what you want on core / druid. That's what this thread is about.

    I hope you're not assuming I'm basing this thread off of qq or not having friends to play with cus you'd be wrong.

    Every time you post in my threads I always have to explain the point of the thread like 3 times.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bigo.9037 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @bigo.9037 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    @bigo.9037 So what are you buffing on ranger? hmmm? "Rangers(+Elites) and Necros(+Elites) are almost nowhere to be seen on either side." lol

    "In the name of science, here are the finalist and semi-finalist team compositions from the last 6 mATs.

    Now some caveats on these:

    • I couldn't find a few of the team-compositions, in particular the first NA October mAT. If anyone has these, I'll merge them into the numbers.
    • Because of this, the comparison between EU and NA is not "like for like". A "10" on NA is equivalent to a "12" on EU.
    • It's important to understand the numbers in context. While 15 is a bigger number than 12, when it's out of a total of 205, the difference is meaningless.
    • If it says "Thief" or "Mesmer", it means "Core". Elites are specified separately.
    • mAT is not Ranked. It's a very different game, since you've got 5 people on voice-comms who have practiced together and specifically chosen their classes for a particular purpose as part of a 5-man team. In general, in this scenario it's better to be super-specialised for one purpose, rather than playing a self-sufficient, jack-of-all-trades which is often better for solo-Q in ranked, where you can't rely on your team-mates.
    • For the finalists, I took the compositions they used in the final, not any earlier rounds.
    • Remember that many of these will be the same players over and over in each tournament. It's not actually 205 different players counted here, its probably closer to 40.


    So, some conclusions to draw from this:

    • Firebrand and Herald most represented, not hugely surprising
    • The FB numbers are waaaay higher in NA than in EU, especially when you look at the Duo numbers: 7 out of 18 NA teams were stacking FBs, while only 1 out of 23 EU teams did. FB is super-meta in NA, but is just one of the crowd in EU. You're 5x more likely to a face a double thief/DD in EU than you are a double FB, and nearly half of EU teams had no FB at all.
    • EU in general has a much wider spread of class representation
    • NA has a way bigger tendency to stack classes
    • Mirage and Holosmith still both very well represented, despite whines to the contrary
    • Thief/Daredevil and SpellB/Warrior are a big deal on EU, but are almost non-existent on NA. If you count Thief/DD/Deadeye together, it is by far the highest represented class on EU.
    • Rangers(+Elites) and Necros(+Elites) are almost nowhere to be seen on either side.
    • Weaver numbers are surprisingly low, despite how much attention they get from the community

    It's interesting to me how different EU and NA are, especially how EU is all about Thief/Rev rotate-and-spike comps, while NA is all about spamming FBs, and how Thief/Warrior variants are big on EU but non-existent on NA.

    This might also explain some differences in perception on the Forums about how strong certain comps are. Might it be the case that EU players are more concerned about how strong Thief is, and don't care about FB, while NA players are more concerned about how strong FB is and don't care about Thief?

    It's certainly a different world from Ranked though. Ranger and Necro variants are a regular feature in my ranked games (P2/3) but just aren't represented here.

    The full data breakdown:

    Interesting data, but soulbeast is obviously very different in spvp. I'm coming mostly from a wvw perspective. Soulbeast is close to being as strong as holo in wvw, and when you consider soulbeast has an easier time fighting some specs holo has trouble with, you could make the case they are equally as strong, but due to rock paper scissors, lose the 1v1 mu.

    WvW is a mass combat zone and Sb is wai comparatively well against all the other meta classes for small scale and roaming. Ppl can l2dodge and l2get friends.

    Enough with the sb qq, what r u gonna buff on core, druid and condition builds for small scale and roaming bc they all stink? What r u gonna buff on core, druid, condi builds and sb so they have a place in large teams? Hmm? Or are your ideas eternally fixated on meaningless duels inside a mode meant primarily for team based mass player combat?

    And do you have the secret patch notes? Why you even talking about “post” patch changes when the patch didn’t even drop yet and is still at least a month away?

    Edit- and I’m gonna help you bc you don’t seem aware...

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/95543/major-info-1-9-2020-stream

    There are going to be 800-900 split changes to skills and traits. There are going to be reworks. There is also going be a comparatively huge balance patch on top of what I just typed... So just wait like the rest of us and talk about “post patch” stuff until after the patch drops, bc this thread is as meaningful as us talking about balancing the nonexistent Ranger profession for gw3.

    Sigh, here we go again for the 3rd time. Read my posts. I'm literally asking YOU what are you hoping for in the patch. I already posted what I would like to see.

    Stop asking me about core and druid. YOU tell ME what you want on core / druid. That's what this thread is about.

    I hope you're not assuming I'm basing this thread off of qq or not having friends to play with cus you'd be wrong.

    Every time you post in my threads I always have to explain the point of the thread like 3 times.

    Feel free to look at my post history if you want my feedback on profession and balance matters.