Your DPS is Trash

[Kelieto.6375]

I raid a lot and I have never been kicked for low dps (probably because my dps is actually good). I very rarely get kicked but I remember a few occasions that I have been kicked.

I have been kicked from matthias as a chrono because we lacked cc and it was apparently my fault even though I was using moa (back when it did 1k break bar damage). I guess that idiot thought that because I continuum split it and still had it on my bar that I didn't use it. Who the heck needs to use 2 moas on 1 sacrifice? That's a group problem not a chrono problem. Even if I did use both moas on 1 sacrifice we'd be boned as soon as the next sacrifice was up. If arcdps was capable of tracking break bar contribution (it can't because the server doesnt send that info to the client) then they would have seen that between my skills alone I was doing literally over half of the breakbar myself and I wouldn't have been kicked. Guy did me a favour to be honest because that group wasn't going to get the kill lmao.

I have been kicked from largos twins as a druid because the tank on the left side kept dying (no one else downed) and it was apparently my fault. If arcdps was capable of showing healing other than your own (again, it cant because the server doesn't send that info to the client) then again I wouldn't have been kicked.

However, the one thing it does track and I have never been kicked for is my dps.

My point is just because you've happened to have negative experiences related to arcdps doesn't mean the tool is the reason for toxicity. Just because I've not had any negative experiences related to arcdps doesn't mean that toxicity doesn't exist. The only proven facts are there were people that were toxic before arcdps and there are people that are toxic now.

Lmao I just remembered the time I got kicked on keep construct as a druid because my toughness was higher than the tanks. It's not even difficult to tank and I was tanking it like I normally would as a chrono only stacking might and fury instead of quickness and alacrity but because the chrono didn't have aggro the commander demanded a gg and kicked me. We must have been in combat for a mere 20 seconds before he demanded the gg! He didn't even ask if I could lower my toughness (I would have been happy to just unequip the 2 minstrel rings I had at the time). He just kicked me and called me a trash druid! :disappointed:

[RaidsAreEasyAF.8652]

@Mordayn.6198 said:Yeah, those builds had issues getting into raids before meters because people were assuming what the best builds were and weren't able to test them accurately. Since then Anet has put a DPS meter in game on the training golem. So even without Arc we would be able to benchmark build dps on the golem and practice rotations so that argument is no longer valid.

Its still very much valid. No one would ever take a Mirage since its only benching 27k on the golem.Besides, the golem rotations can differ from actual encounters. On the golem you want to line up your burst with the golems HP to get a higher end number. Thats stuff you do on the golem and not on an actual boss.Some classes are better on some bosses then others, but you wouldnt be able to see this on the golem.

[Mordayn.6198]

The difference is movement, which the golem actually does have as a setting. Not sure about attacking though for confusion. Point being that the tools exist in game to prove viability of classes and rotations so using that to justify Arc is an invalid argument. It's using an argument from before the Anet dps tool in game existed.

[RaidsAreEasyAF.8652]

@Mordayn.6198 said:The difference is movement, which the golem actually does have as a setting. Not sure about attacking though for confusion. Point being that the tools exist in game to prove viability of classes and rotations so using that to justify Arc is an invalid argument. It's using an argument from before the Anet dps tool in game existed.

The golem doesnt proc confusion. You cant make it attack. Even then the results will be different since some bosses attack faster than others. The tool exists as an severely underdeveloped feature in the game.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Mordayn.6198 said:With the existence of the training golem to test the viability of builds that is no longer a valid argument for the need of Arc. As I've stated multiple times before I'm not anti DPS meter, I'm anti it being used as a tool to be toxic to other players.

If that was the case then certain builds wouldn't be taken in any encounter, but they do. Like Mirage is meta for the Largos Twins, that is not shown on the golem, it's something you find out during play.

If the meter wasn't able to see other player dps it would actually be a lot healthier for the game.

If the meter wasn't able to see other player's dps it would actually make the game full of trolls. They already join groups they shouldn't and actively try to ruin runs. The meter is the only defense and you want to empower trolling? You want to limit one type of toxic behavior while empowering another (far worse and far more common) type of toxic behavior?

[Vinceman.4572]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Mordayn.6198 said:With the existence of the training golem to test the viability of builds that is no longer a valid argument for the need of Arc. As I've stated multiple times before I'm not anti DPS meter, I'm anti it being used as a tool to be toxic to other players.

If that was the case then certain builds wouldn't be taken in any encounter, but they do. Like Mirage is meta for the Largos Twins, that is not shown on the golem, it's something you find out during play.

If the meter wasn't able to see other player dps it would actually be a lot healthier for the game.

If the meter wasn't able to see other player's dps it would actually make the game full of trolls. They already join groups they shouldn't and actively try to ruin runs. The meter is the only defense and you want to empower trolling? You want to limit one type of toxic behavior while empowering another (far worse and far more common) type of toxic behavior?

Not only that. Even if we have the golem only the player in front of the monitor would know his own personal damage. People/Squads will fail & wipe over and over again because nobody would be able to know anything. The squad can play perfectly in terms of mechanics but if players are lacking dps you have 2 options as commander kick everyone and start over again or motivate the squad to perform better in terms of dps. Guess what, it won't have any effect at all so back to option 1: Disband the squad/Kick everyone. Sorry, not gonna like that. In the past I had dozens of Gorseval attempts when I knew my dps was sufficient enough to kill him but others were slacking hard and prevented the success of the squad. It was frustrating like I don't know...

In the end there's really no valid argument against a dps meter. If you don't want to play with it the old rule stands again: Open your own squad so you have full control over every player. In almost every thread in this subforum it always comes down to one thing: "The others behave toxic but I'm the victim so they have to change or if they won't Anet has to do it." Why can't people like you, @Mordayn.6198 accept that a certain player base wants to play like this. Being a part of the community requires you to accept the rules/standards of this certain community - It's the same thing irl. If you want to play different then go ahead. You have all possibilities available but don't expect the community to follow you if they have chosen a different way for them.

[luzonophir.7134]

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Mordayn.6198 said:With the existence of the training golem to test the viability of builds that is no longer a valid argument for the need of Arc. As I've stated multiple times before I'm not anti DPS meter, I'm anti it being used as a tool to be toxic to other players.

If that was the case then certain builds wouldn't be taken in any encounter, but they do. Like Mirage is meta for the Largos Twins, that is not shown on the golem, it's something you find out during play.

If the meter wasn't able to see other player dps it would actually be a lot healthier for the game.

If the meter wasn't able to see other player's dps it would actually make the game full of trolls. They already join groups they shouldn't and actively try to ruin runs. The meter is the only defense and you want to empower trolling? You want to limit one type of toxic behavior while empowering another (far worse and far more common) type of toxic behavior?

Not only that. Even if we have the golem only the player in front of the monitor would know his own personal damage. People/Squads will fail & wipe over and over again because nobody would be able to know anything. The squad can play perfectly in terms of mechanics but if players are lacking dps you have 2 options as commander kick everyone and start over again or motivate the squad to perform better in terms of dps. Guess what, it won't have any effect at all so back to option 1: Disband the squad/Kick everyone. Sorry, not gonna like that. In the past I had dozens of Gorseval attempts when I knew my dps was sufficient enough to kill him but others were slacking hard and prevented the success of the squad. It was frustrating like I don't know...

In the end there's really no valid argument against a dps meter. If you don't want to play with it the old rule stands again:

Open your own squad

so you have full control over every player. In almost every thread in this subforum it always comes down to one thing: "The others behave toxic but I'm the victim so they have to change or if they won't Anet has to do it." Why can't people like you, @Mordayn.6198 accept that a certain player base wants to play like this. Being a part of the community requires you to accept the rules/standards of this certain community - It's the same thing irl. If you want to play different then go ahead. You have all possibilities available but don't expect the community to follow you if they have chosen a different way for them.

thing with dps meters is that what you feel finishing that instance (if it's smooth, if it's heavy, or it feels like 3 of them talked and decided to die often and make you feel frustrated, quit and they steal the Chest) is not important anymore. You base everything on numbers, and that's like you becoming computers..

during our iway days, it is easy to judge if the team combo is good, who are the players pulling the team down, who needs more practice. we had a solid crew (mostly founders/founding members of the guild) that is so smooth sailing. and screening the new potential members, you will feel smoothness or heaviness, win or lose..

it's more than a feeling (yeah the song). it's like everything is easy when you play with them..

and what did i just say? ArcDPS dependents depend on literal numbers to get their prospective team mate. and no ArcDPS, you use meta-feelings to get your team mates.

BIG DIFFERENCE?

still defending dat .dll to death, i think you need more numbers..

YEAH, I NEED MORE ARCDPS DEFENDERS..

~ZionOphir

[Mordayn.6198]

Because> @Vinceman.4572 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Mordayn.6198 said:With the existence of the training golem to test the viability of builds that is no longer a valid argument for the need of Arc. As I've stated multiple times before I'm not anti DPS meter, I'm anti it being used as a tool to be toxic to other players.

If that was the case then certain builds wouldn't be taken in any encounter, but they do. Like Mirage is meta for the Largos Twins, that is not shown on the golem, it's something you find out during play.

If the meter wasn't able to see other player dps it would actually be a lot healthier for the game.

If the meter wasn't able to see other player's dps it would actually make the game full of trolls. They already join groups they shouldn't and actively try to ruin runs. The meter is the only defense and you want to empower trolling? You want to limit one type of toxic behavior while empowering another (far worse and far more common) type of toxic behavior?

Not only that. Even if we have the golem only the player in front of the monitor would know his own personal damage. People/Squads will fail & wipe over and over again because nobody would be able to know anything. The squad can play perfectly in terms of mechanics but if players are lacking dps you have 2 options as commander kick everyone and start over again or motivate the squad to perform better in terms of dps. Guess what, it won't have any effect at all so back to option 1: Disband the squad/Kick everyone. Sorry, not gonna like that. In the past I had dozens of Gorseval attempts when I knew my dps was sufficient enough to kill him but others were slacking hard and prevented the success of the squad. It was frustrating like I don't know...

In the end there's really no valid argument against a dps meter. If you don't want to play with it the old rule stands again:

Open your own squad

so you have full control over every player. In almost every thread in this subforum it always comes down to one thing: "The others behave toxic but I'm the victim so they have to change or if they won't Anet has to do it." Why can't people like you, @Mordayn.6198 accept that a certain player base wants to play like this. Being a part of the community requires you to accept the rules/standards of this certain community - It's the same thing irl. If you want to play different then go ahead. You have all possibilities available but don't expect the community to follow you if they have chosen a different way for them.

So you want us to just accept that segments of the player base/community are just going to be toxic, using a third party tool to justify being toxic. The valid argument is that the tool is a breeding ground for toxic behavior. The valid argument is that because of this toxicity a lot of players that try out the mode are met with unwelcoming attitudes and they just give up because of the way the community is presented by these players that choose to be toxic. BTW, I'm not the victim here, I've been raiding for a long time with statics and with pugs and I'm not the target for this toxicity. The reason I even brought this up was that while pugging I'm seeing the DPS meter being used more and more to exclude/push out would be raiders. This mode needs more population, not less if we ever want to see more of it.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Mordayn.6198" said:The valid argument is that the tool is a breeding ground for toxic behavior. The valid argument is that because of this toxicity a lot of players that try out the mode are met with unwelcoming attitudes and they just give up because of the way the community is presented by these players that choose to be toxic. BTW, I'm not the victim here, I've been raiding for a long time with statics and with pugs and I'm not the target for this toxicity. The reason I even brought this up was that while pugging I'm seeing the DPS meter being used more and more to exclude/push out would be raiders. This mode needs more population, not less if we ever want to see more of it.

Pictures/proof and LOTS of it.

Edit: you are seeing DPS meter being used to exclude players, ever thought those deserve to be excluded? If a group asks for a DPS and all they get is someone that barely does more than the healer, then the toxic one isn't the one that does the kicking, nor the one using the meter. It's the person that expects to be carried. Would be raiders can start their raiding career like everyone else, join a guild, join a static, join a training run. Just because someone joined a raid doesn't make them a "would be raider", for all you know they want to hide their presence and get free kills.

I'm all for helping new players, I've been in 3 raid teams already and each time we start fresh. But when this same team misses a few spots, we ask for fillers and they severely underperform, it's not us that are toxic anymore.

[Vinceman.4572]

@luzonophir.7134 said:during our iway days, it is easy to judge if the team combo is good, who are the players pulling the team down, who needs more practice. we had a solid crew (mostly founders/founding members of the guild) that is so smooth sailing. and screening the new potential members, you will feel smoothness or heaviness, win or lose..

it's more than a feeling (yeah the song). it's like everything is easy when you play with them..

and what did i just say? ArcDPS dependents depend on literal numbers to get their prospective team mate. and no ArcDPS, you use meta-feelings to get your team mates.

BIG DIFFERENCE?

still defending dat .dll to death, i think you need more numbers..

YEAH, I NEED MORE ARCDPS DEFENDERS..

~ZionOphir

Sorry, but I don't even understand what you are talking about. I'm not feeling like a computer I just want to know if there is a/are player(s) in my squad/group that gets heavily carried by others or at worst is the reason why we can't beat an encounter.I told you people you have an option: OPEN YOUR OWN SQUAD!Nobody can kick you, nobody will call you out unpunished for bad dps. You can kick them. (Maybe some more players leave then voluntarily, we never know.)But again, I said it here and in the past: I don't want to have players performing terribly in my group/squad. I have the right to know because it's a team thing and everybody has to make everything possible for the team to be successful.

[luzonophir.7134]

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@luzonophir.7134 said:during our iway days, it is easy to judge if the team combo is good, who are the players pulling the team down, who needs more practice. we had a solid crew (mostly founders/founding members of the guild) that is so smooth sailing. and screening the new potential members, you will feel smoothness or heaviness, win or lose..

it's more than a feeling (yeah the song). it's like everything is easy when you play with them..

and what did i just say? ArcDPS dependents depend on literal numbers to get their prospective team mate. and no ArcDPS, you use meta-feelings to get your team mates.

BIG DIFFERENCE?

still defending dat .dll to death, i think you need more numbers..

YEAH, I NEED MORE ARCDPS DEFENDERS..

~ZionOphir

Sorry, but I don't even understand what you are talking about. I'm not feeling like a computer I just want to know if there is a/are player(s) in my squad/group that gets heavily carried by others or at worst is the reason why we can't beat an encounter.I told you people you have an option:

OPEN YOUR OWN SQUAD!

Nobody can kick you, nobody will call you out unpunished for bad dps. You can kick them. (Maybe some more players leave then voluntarily, we never know.)But again, I said it here and in the past: I don't want to have players performing terribly in my group/squad. I have the right to know because it's a team thing and everybody has to make everything possible for the team to be successful.

i played guild wars 1 beta weekends when i was 24.. from then to now..

now get a clue...

how old were you in 2005? the answer to that will explain my previous post.

[Vinceman.4572]

@"Mordayn.6198" said:So you want us to just accept that segments of the player base/community are just going to be toxic, using a third party tool to justify being toxic. The valid argument is that the tool is a breeding ground for toxic behavior. The valid argument is that because of this toxicity a lot of players that try out the mode are met with unwelcoming attitudes and they just give up because of the way the community is presented by these players that choose to be toxic. BTW, I'm not the victim here, I've been raiding for a long time with statics and with pugs and I'm not the target for this toxicity. The reason I even brought this up was that while pugging I'm seeing the DPS meter being used more and more to exclude/push out would be raiders. This mode needs more population, not less if we ever want to see more of it.

We already told you:It's not the average dps meter user who is toxic. Toxic people are toxic. It is like that, will be like that and was like that when we were running doing dungeon full tours from 2012 till HoT release 2015 on a daily basis.

At the moment I am doing T4 dailies every day and pug from time to time when I'm in the mood (2k LIs + all legendary armors btw). I met one (1!) player calling out another one for having bad dps very friendly and he excused it because he didn't swap parts of his heal tempest gear to dps gear. Without arcdps we would've never figured that out so fast.Your so called "more and more exclude" is not fricking true it's straight up a lie and a concern you bring up unfounded.

If you want to raise raid population the abolishment of dps meters will create the opposite effect. People would be afraid being kicked because the commander doesn't like the armor skin of you char or think you are the one with the fewest AP so you have to suck although your golem performance is excellent. It'll hold people back from pugging.I've raided almost since the start of raids and the amount of people getting kicked due to their low dps is so abysmal compared to people just being stupid or toxic per se because they didn't like the tactic or whatever. Heck, people insult others due to wiping a single time on an easy boss.The truth is, if somebody kicks you out of the squad with low dps it's 99% because you lack far more than 5k dps than the next class and that equalizes with being absolutely terrible, most often inexperienced in terms of rotations and boss mechanics. A lot of squads don't even care about that. If you pugged regularly you would see that most of players in W4 are absolutely not performing near the benchmarks, lots of them not nearly 50% around that but nobody says everything about the differences as long as you play the mechanic and the total damage of the squad is fine to achieve a solid & smooth kill.

[Vinceman.4572]

@luzonophir.7134 said:i played guild wars 1 beta weekends when i was 24.. from then to now..

now get a clue...

how old were you in 2005? the answer to that will explain my previous post.

Dude, you're off topic and trolling + trying to provoke me. I reported your post tyi.

I mean, if you want to have a proper discussion with other human beings then try to behave like a reasonable person. If you aren't able to do so I'll end the conversation with this post. I don't know about your problem(s) but hey it's not my cup of tea.

[Condutas.3580]

I had 3 LI in the start of this year.

Today I have 136.

I joined RTI in Europe, learned slowly but surely my 3 raid pve char options.

I never used arcdps...But the fun thing is, I ALWAYS, ALWAYS, after a kill, ask if someone have arcdps and ask them to whisper me my dps / boons uptime if I am in my chrono.

I ask for this information to be send to me via whisper for two reasons:

1° I dont want people to put a in party chat things like "you did 12k and you were the best" or "You did 7k you were 7th you suck". That happened a lot in full pug raids and I decided to cut it off. You whisper me, you can even insult me if you want, but the one thing I hate is people using the squad chat with other 9 players to humiliate each other. The internet is not a black hole for you to vent...

2° By asking for more information of my own performance via whisper... plus playing the raid always while representing RTI... plus having on my char a title related to raids (something like the title you get for doing w1 wihout deaths) already proofs to the other players that I am willing to improve and take my time to do the best I can

Arcdps is needed and it helps anyone, as long as you are willing to improve.

[icy.9250]

rip, most of my experiences with dps meters have been pretty positive. The best setup, imo, is when you have friends who are better than you. This creates a friendly competitive environment, much like IRL where you can learn tricks from playing w/ a better friend in some sport/game.

A few weeks ago, I was in a mostly-premade-friends fractal group, and we opened to LFG to fill the last DPS spot for a typical 50+ ess CMs+T4s run. A reaper joined and pinged quite a bit (over a stack) of essence kill proof. I could tell he was trying to 'help out' with utility and stuff, but he wasnt doing very great numbers-wise. At the very end of the run, I kindly mentioned he should check out a few other builds, as they do the whole bursty-deeps job better, esp if all the support elements are already present in the party.

He responded by asking for more info with logs and stuff. He didn't have discord, so I started a squad, invited him there and copypasted a bunch of links to our uploaded kills from 100CM and 99CM in the squad message (easier for him to copypaste to address). I explained some of the analysis of the burst with the graphs, giving him an idea to examine not just the overall number that you'd see by default. And he took it well, agreed, and thanked me.

This is how I'd hope it to work and continue working -- constructive criticism, people having friendly competitions and encouraging improvement. In endgame group content, everyone becomes specialized as boon and other responsibilities are neatly split amongst the party or squad members. Practice makes perfect =)

[The one to Rule.2593]

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@The one to Rule.2593 said:I actually raid fairly often. I have both the legendary armor and the ring. I do tend to agree that raiding was much better before meters and when everyone didn't care so much about getting 30k dps. Since meters became pretty mainstream this sort of behavior is not uncommon and people who say it doesnt happen are either lying, or don't pug often.

It was impossible to pug raids with necro, dh, dps mesmer, dps ranger, rev after the nerf or basically anthing that wasn't considered meta like tempest or thief. Ye such great times back then.Dps meters exist for quite a long time now. It was just bgdm instead of arc back then.

That's just flat out wrong.

[zealex.9410]

@Mordayn.6198 said:Yeah, those builds had issues getting into raids before meters because people were assuming what the best builds were and weren't able to test them accurately. Since then Anet has put a DPS meter in game on the training golem. So even without Arc we would be able to benchmark build dps on the golem and practice rotations so that argument is no longer valid. As I've stated before, I use Arc for my personal dps monitoring. The issue isn't with this part of the tool. It's the ability to view other player's dps that is causing the toxic behavior we've been seeing in PUGs. A more valid monitor for player skill in raids isn't are they hitting benchmark level dps, it should be are they doing mechanics, are the reviving people, are they going down constantly or are they staying alive. DPS meters in some cases can cause people to focus more on dps numbers than anything else and they'll have high dps numbers but don't res and sometimes even die because they're trying to squeak out that little extra bit of rotation.

With the existence of the training golem to test the viability of builds that is no longer a valid argument for the need of Arc. As I've stated multiple times before I'm not anti DPS meter, I'm anti it being used as a tool to be toxic to other players. If the meter wasn't able to see other player dps it would actually be a lot healthier for the game.

Yeah because all the bosses are the golem from the training area to practicing there means u can transfer that in actual raids...

[zealex.9410]

@The one to Rule.2593 said:

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@The one to Rule.2593 said:I actually raid fairly often. I have both the legendary armor and the ring. I do tend to agree that raiding was much better before meters and when everyone didn't care so much about getting 30k dps. Since meters became pretty mainstream this sort of behavior is not uncommon and people who say it doesnt happen are either lying, or don't pug often.

It was impossible to pug raids with necro, dh, dps mesmer, dps ranger, rev after the nerf or basically anthing that wasn't considered meta like tempest or thief. Ye such great times back then.Dps meters exist for quite a long time now. It was just bgdm instead of arc back then.

That's just flat out wrong.

No it wasnt, cries in dh and reaper post nerf

[Lorfi.7562]

@"Condutas.3580" said:I had 3 LI in the start of this year.

Today I have 136.

I joined RTI in Europe, learned slowly but surely my 3 raid pve char options.

I never used arcdps...But the fun thing is, I ALWAYS, ALWAYS, after a kill, ask if someone have arcdps and ask them to whisper me my dps / boons uptime if I am in my chrono.

I ask for this information to be send to me via whisper for two reasons:

1° I dont want people to put a in party chat things like "you did 12k and you were the best" or "You did 7k you were 7th you suck". That happened a lot in full pug raids and I decided to cut it off. You whisper me, you can even insult me if you want, but the one thing I hate is people using the squad chat with other 9 players to humiliate each other. The internet is not a black hole for you to vent...

2° By asking for more information of my own performance via whisper... plus playing the raid always while representing RTI... plus having on my char a title related to raids (something like the title you get for doing w1 wihout deaths) already proofs to the other players that I am willing to improve and take my time to do the best I can

Arcdps is needed and it helps anyone, as long as you are willing to improve.

This is the correct mentality for people who want to raid. The only people who are against arc are people who don't want to improve or put any effort into raids so hate any tool that proves they're not pulling close to their weight. And that's the biggest thing they forget, the three things that get you started in raids is effort, acceptance (know when you fuck up and have to improve, you're not a god player from week/month1) and honesty. But welcome in the raiding community, we're nicer than the others deep down.

[The one to Rule.2593]

@zealex.9410 said:

@The one to Rule.2593 said:

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@The one to Rule.2593 said:I actually raid fairly often. I have both the legendary armor and the ring. I do tend to agree that raiding was much better before meters and when everyone didn't care so much about getting 30k dps. Since meters became pretty mainstream this sort of behavior is not uncommon and people who say it doesnt happen are either lying, or don't pug often.

It was impossible to pug raids with necro, dh, dps mesmer, dps ranger, rev after the nerf or basically anthing that wasn't considered meta like tempest or thief. Ye such great times back then.Dps meters exist for quite a long time now. It was just bgdm instead of arc back then.

That's just flat out wrong.

No it wasnt,

cries in dh and reaper post nerf

you really gonna try to say that only theif and ele were taken for dps? It's wrong. and you're wrong.

[zealex.9410]

@The one to Rule.2593 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@The one to Rule.2593 said:

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@The one to Rule.2593 said:I actually raid fairly often. I have both the legendary armor and the ring. I do tend to agree that raiding was much better before meters and when everyone didn't care so much about getting 30k dps. Since meters became pretty mainstream this sort of behavior is not uncommon and people who say it doesnt happen are either lying, or don't pug often.

It was impossible to pug raids with necro, dh, dps mesmer, dps ranger, rev after the nerf or basically anthing that wasn't considered meta like tempest or thief. Ye such great times back then.Dps meters exist for quite a long time now. It was just bgdm instead of arc back then.

That's just flat out wrong.

No it wasnt,

cries in dh and reaper post nerf

you really gonna try to say that only theif and ele were taken for dps? It's wrong. and you're wrong.

Dont think it was even thief, i think it was just the ele. But when and if i got accepted in a group as dh at the time i would the first to be kicked if we didjt phase the boss fast enough and ppl would ask for eles.

[Vinceman.4572]

@The one to Rule.2593 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@The one to Rule.2593 said:

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@The one to Rule.2593 said:I actually raid fairly often. I have both the legendary armor and the ring. I do tend to agree that raiding was much better before meters and when everyone didn't care so much about getting 30k dps. Since meters became pretty mainstream this sort of behavior is not uncommon and people who say it doesnt happen are either lying, or don't pug often.

It was impossible to pug raids with necro, dh, dps mesmer, dps ranger, rev after the nerf or basically anthing that wasn't considered meta like tempest or thief. Ye such great times back then.Dps meters exist for quite a long time now. It was just bgdm instead of arc back then.

That's just flat out wrong.

No it wasnt,

cries in dh and reaper post nerf

you really gonna try to say that only theif and ele were taken for dps? It's wrong. and you're wrong.

No, he is absolutely right. You picked some condi stuff for Red Guardian at VG, mostly the fotm class but for power heavy bosses it was almost always ele (tempest) and sometimes thiefs. Especially in pugs, skilled & speedrun statics picked different sometimes due to being top end. Of course there were few groups that picked other classes as well, most often inexperienced ones but straight up clear squads didn't choose like this.

[Cyninja.2954]

@The one to Rule.2593 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@The one to Rule.2593 said:

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@The one to Rule.2593 said:I actually raid fairly often. I have both the legendary armor and the ring. I do tend to agree that raiding was much better before meters and when everyone didn't care so much about getting 30k dps. Since meters became pretty mainstream this sort of behavior is not uncommon and people who say it doesnt happen are either lying, or don't pug often.

It was impossible to pug raids with necro, dh, dps mesmer, dps ranger, rev after the nerf or basically anthing that wasn't considered meta like tempest or thief. Ye such great times back then.Dps meters exist for quite a long time now. It was just bgdm instead of arc back then.

That's just flat out wrong.

No it wasnt,

cries in dh and reaper post nerf

you really gonna try to say that only theif and ele were taken for dps? It's wrong. and you're wrong.

Tempest was over 10k power dps ahead of any power dps in early HoT. Condi engi was hard to play but dominated condi dps together with condi berserker which was used even after the Scorched Earth of Longbow was nerfed to not hit multiple times on large hit boxes (remember 6 condi warri Gorseval runs kills?).

You seem to only remember the last 12 months of builds where things have become a lot more even.

Guardians and necromancers were pretty much unseen in raids for a LONG time (pretty much until PoF).Mesmers were chrono slaves and remained chrono support slaves up until PoF.Rangers were druids. Period.Revenant/Herald was a boon duration bot for chronos until their boon duration on Facet of Nature was nerfed. Then they were removed from raids.

As to having the legendary armor... you need to specify how many since most experienced raiders in these forums are at 1.5k-2k and above LI and have been raiding since early HoT. I myself have 4 full armor sets and am sitting on 197 LI and 235 LD currently about to make my 5th legendary armor set. The reason why I'm at around 1.5k LI total and not 2.2k LI is the breaks I took from the game.

EDIT: why is all of that relevant? Because if you were not one of the desired meta classes AND the raid had no damage meter, you were the first to go if damage was lacking. Made no difference how good or bad the tempests were, it was your fault for not being one.

[Kelieto.6375]

@Condutas.3580 said:

I never used arcdps...But the fun thing is, I ALWAYS, ALWAYS, after a kill, ask if someone have arcdps and ask them to whisper me my dps / boons uptime if I am in my chrono.

I ask for this information to be send to me via whisper for two reasons:

Arcdps is needed and it helps anyone, as long as you are willing to improve.

Why don't you just use arcdps? You'll be able to see all of that information about your own performance and more.

[Metasynaptic.1093]

I think there are some attitude issues at play here. Pugging in GW2 is like having a soccer team that is short 3 players, handing 3 shirts to spectators and expect to get Messi, Ronaldo and Kane to shoot for you.