Your DPS is Trash

[Lorfi.7562]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

instead of using the tool 24/7, you could you know, build up a friends list or join a guild. it would save tons of everyones time.

using dps meters in pugs saves a lot of time tho.

Is it a guild run and people do bad dps? that's an insta leave, happened a lot when I joined random pug groups of arma and similar guilds where their highest dps was barely half mine. Saved me a lot of failed attempts cause I saw they lied about their LI requirement after one attempt and joining a new raid is faster than staying in a bad pug.

Is it a full random pug and 2 dps players are doing way worse? Mention it to commie and if next try it happens again and wipe again, kick them and replace by people who didn't lie about their experience. Two tries and saved the time of 8 other people by removing two leeches instead of wiping wo knowing who causes it and having the full group disbanden.

But also using it in your static helps saving time, both in exp and new statics.Sometimes you want to try a new or more advanced strat, but to start let's say a new people static tries to do fast cc, no updraft gorse but fails. Without arc dps they have no real way of knowing howmuch dps they're exactly missing and it helps to find out if one person has to put in more effort, because if you're in a static where all but one dps does 80% of in raid, so not golem, benchmark and the other guy does 40-45% it'll get frustrating for everyone else if that guy doesn't put in the effort to improve and you're able to help him figure out what he does wrong.

For more advanced statics, they could try for 2-3 shrooms sloth, throne tanking dhuum, tanking last phase on the side at xera for even less moving and even stuff like one healer for all bosses. All of these tactics require a certain group dps, like above just knowing howmuch % you're slower doesn't help anything close as a dps meter would help. After a few pulls you'll find out where you have to pick up the pace, how the boons were distributed and all. You'll be able to progress way faster with arcDPS than wo.

So I said how arcDPS does infact save time for both pugs and statics, now can u please say how running wo arcDPS would save time in these enviroments?

[knite.1542]

@Lorfi.7562 said:So I said how arcDPS does infact save time for both pugs and statics, now can u please say how running wo arcDPS would save time in these enviroments?

I think people just don't like the tool because it allows others to hold them accountable for their bad DPS which makes it harder to leech.

[Knighthonor.4061]

Honestly this is a result of Anets system from vanilla that was build on a Anti trinity, DPS greater than all, design concept for the game. DPS became the one and only judgment.

Support, and control need to be equally as important roles as DPS is. Right now its DPS>>>>>>>>>>>>>all else

Make a real trinity.

[Carcharoth Lucian.1378]

@Knighthonor.4061 said:Honestly this is a result of Anets system from vanilla that was build on a Anti trinity, DPS greater than all, design concept for the game. DPS became the one and only judgment.

Support, and control need to be equally as important roles as DPS is. Right now its DPS>>>>>>>>>>>>>all else

Make a real trinity.

No. Dps, boon+heal and cc are all important in both cm fractals and raids.And you can see some of them with arcdps (dps, boon).

[maddoctor.2738]

@Knighthonor.4061 said:Support, and control need to be equally as important roles as DPS is. Right now its DPS>>>>>>>>>>>>>all else

Have you played this game at all since Heart of Thorns was released? Have you run any Raids?

[yann.1946]

@knite.1542 said:

@Lorfi.7562 said:So I said how arcDPS does infact save time for both pugs and statics, now can u please say how running wo arcDPS would save time in these enviroments?

I think people just don't like the tool because it allows others to hold them accountable for their bad DPS which makes it harder to leech.

That's a glaring oversimplification.Some people don't like the tool because they feel it infringes on their privacy.

Like people not wanting their mails read even though their is nothing of importance in them.

[knite.1542]

@yann.1946 said:

@knite.1542 said:

@Lorfi.7562 said:So I said how arcDPS does infact save time for both pugs and statics, now can u please say how running wo arcDPS would save time in these enviroments?

I think people just don't like the tool because it allows others to hold them accountable for their bad DPS which makes it harder to leech.

That's a glaring oversimplification.Some people don't like the tool because they feel it infringes on their privacy.

Like people not wanting their mails read even though their is nothing of importance in them.

Alright, you are right, my statement is a huge oversimplification. I realize this isn't 100% true, but for the most part I think it's safe to say that the only reason you wouldn't want someone to see your DPS is if you know it is sub par. I bet a ton of players that are against DPS meters would not be against them if they were doing top DPS in their groups. For some reason though, a lot of people spend more time complaining about others criticizing their performance than they spend trying to actually improve. Here is what happens a lot:

People do low DPS in a group, someone else asks them what gear/build they are running, and then that person says nothing. To me, that is more toxic then flaming someone for performing poorly. By going into a group and underperforming, and then refusing to communicate with them, you are hurting those people that you are playing with.

As far as the privacy portion though, I fail to see how your DPS should be considered private (specifically in a group).I see people say this a lot but I definitely don't agree with it. If you are playing solo then you can and should do whatever you want.If you are in a group, there is nothing wrong with the other members of your group being able to see how you are contributing to the group (for example your DPS).To be honest, I wish you could see more information about people in a group. I think you should be able to see their build and their gear. You are in a team when you raid. A team.

Either way though, if you do feel like that information is private, you have the option of not playing with other players.

[maddoctor.2738]

@yann.1946 said:Some people don't like the tool because they feel it infringes on their privacy.

Does it? The effects of the DPS meter can be seen in game already, it's nothing private. The meter simply visualizes that information better

[yann.1946]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@yann.1946 said:Some people don't like the tool because they feel it infringes on their privacy.

Does it? The effects of the DPS meter can be seen in game already, it's nothing private. The meter simply visualizes that information better

Personally I don't think it does, but I can see why the case can be made as you can't see someone's dps without the meter and they might think of the actions they do as personal

[yann.1946]

@knite.1542 said:

@yann.1946 said:

@knite.1542 said:

@Lorfi.7562 said:So I said how arcDPS does infact save time for both pugs and statics, now can u please say how running wo arcDPS would save time in these enviroments?

I think people just don't like the tool because it allows others to hold them accountable for their bad DPS which makes it harder to leech.

That's a glaring oversimplification.Some people don't like the tool because they feel it infringes on their privacy.

Like people not wanting their mails read even though their is nothing of importance in them.

Alright, you are right, my statement is a huge oversimplification. I realize this isn't 100% true, but for the most part I think it's safe to say that the only reason you wouldn't want someone to see your DPS is if you know it is sub par. I bet a ton of players that are against DPS meters would not be against them if they were doing top DPS in their groups. For some reason though, a lot of people spend more time complaining about others criticizing their performance than they spend trying to actually improve. Here is what happens a lot:

People do low DPS in a group, someone else asks them what gear/build they are running, and then that person says nothing. To me, that is more toxic then flaming someone for performing poorly. By going into a group and underperforming, and then refusing to communicate with them, you are hurting those people that you are playing with.

As far as the privacy portion though, I fail to see how your DPS should be considered private (specifically in a group).I see people say this a lot but I definitely don't agree with it. If you are playing solo then you can and should do whatever you want.If you are in a group, there is nothing wrong with the other members of your group being able to see how you are contributing to the group (for example your DPS).To be honest, I wish you could see more information about people in a group. I think you should be able to see their build and their gear. You are in a team when you raid. A team.

Either way though, if you do feel like that information is private, you have the option of not playing with other players.

I personally think the biggest reason is misconception and bad experiences

[Henry.5713]

Your damage is private as long as you stay out of my group. But your performance matters to me once I have to rely on you in any sort of group content. This includes support (healing, boons), tanking, taking care of mechanics and, yes, even personal DPS (especially if you take up a pure DPS spot). Just like I take responsibility for my performance whenever I make others depend on me.Thus I still fail to see why personal DPS should be seen as this one and only unique and private information concerning individual performances while everything else has been far more obvious since the start and people hardly required combat logs to stop themselves from complaining about boon uptimes or failed mechanics.And of course, you are free to form your own group which does have different standards for different roles which incldues handling DPS players with kid gloves for some reason so they, unlike tanks, supports, healers, mechanic takers, will not be blamed for their bad play.

Not to mention that ArenaNet already made it clear that they do not consider "damage done" as private information.

[Lorfi.7562]

@yann.1946 said:

@knite.1542 said:

@Lorfi.7562 said:So I said how arcDPS does infact save time for both pugs and statics, now can u please say how running wo arcDPS would save time in these enviroments?

I think people just don't like the tool because it allows others to hold them accountable for their bad DPS which makes it harder to leech.

That's a glaring oversimplification.Some people don't like the tool because they feel it infringes on their privacy.

Like people not wanting their mails read even though their is nothing of importance in them.

I mean privacy matters as long as you're not negativily impacting others, on top that ANET clearly said arcdps is allowed and your damage is not private.

Also your mail example is a very good example indeed, raids you can basically compare to a group project by 10 people and your dps is basically any mail you send related to making advancement in your group project so it's very important you send this mail in CC to your project partners so they can see if you formatted it correctly AND any reply on the mail is also directly send to them. You're correct that any mail not related to this project is private and people have the right to not know them, these are your private information like account value, liquid gold, what achievement you did, your gear etc.. But basically as soon as you enter a squad, you made a mail link connected with everyone else in the squad that openly shows your dps and boons, also what mechanics you failed in raids/fractals.

Raids are not solo content, so people should stop acting like it's 10 man solo content where it doesn't matter how much effort and performance you give.

[ArchonWing.9480]

If you join an LFG asking for a healer, and don't heal anyone, and refuse to explain because privacy, then you can maintain your privacy after you get booted for wasting everyone's time.

Likewise, if you want to keep your dps being a secret while joining as DPS, well, nobody has to honor it. You can play in secret on your own.

Pro Tip: If you do something that makes people want to keep you around, they'll keep you around. They might even friend you and ask you next time too! Yes, some people are insane and boot for stupid reasons, but if you get kicked from everything, maybe it's you?

[serialkicker.5274]

Gaming communities is general were formed into new kind of toxic environment. We were suppose to be a fun community helping each other and enjoy escaping real world problems in this fantasy world. Instead, you are met with same greediness, power lusting, competition, even bullying than you can find in real life. They bring all the bad traits along with them to a game, where they are suppose to have fun.

People are concerned about numbers and that one build that is only thing that matters at the moment. People are talking about their time being wasted as if this is their job and they are getting payed for every second of it. If you have exactly 6 min for that dungeon path to spend and 6 min and a half would be too much, then you are playing the wrong game.

In no other game I have played, did I hear, "my time is being wasted because matchmaking put me into worse team/ because I got worse team members, because that one team member doesn't have that exact gear and build some pro guild on internet told him to etc... What happened to just roll with it and go from that? If you enjoy the group and you work well together, then what else matters? I can understand the need for speedruns, but things have gotten so far, it's a norm now that everything is speedrun, unless specifically stated otherwise in caps lock (believe me, I made countless of LFGs and the amount of people ignoring description or playing dumb is shocking), it's expected that you have meta build, that you know your rotation, people are monitoring their or of their entire party dps... You are not playing the game for fun, you are not playing the way you would like to play, you play the way numbers tell you and pro guild tells you. If meta currently requests that one weapon you hate, you'll take it and play with it, because that's the most efficient right now. Absolutely ridiculous. But the sad part is these people often carry that attitude and approach and apply it to everyone. If you stop to kill a mob in dungeon that you were not suppose to, many would in shock question your sanity.

Is there not a single positive thing about dps meters? Of course there is something positive. But we can find positive in almost everything, if we look into it enough.I believe there is absolutely no need for dps meters and I'm saddened it came so far that people feel the need to monitor their gameplay. I am all for pushing yourself to improve your performance, but this is not the way. Relying on third party software to monitor every point of your damage you do is really quite sad.

Before people come with their highly predictable argument like "Just make your own group, dude), please consider and take your own advice. You make your own group or guild for that purpose as well. Don't join regular lfgs with no requirements (or in a lot of cases in my experience, even into groups with first timers) and then expect people to have exactly the gear, experience and knowledge you want them to have. Make your own group and keep that attitude there. Don't come there and teach people how to speedrun in their first ever dungeon.

It's no secret that an average gamer today has little patience and competence to play and learn the game as it should be learned and was meant to. At least in the past.Today it's a norm to just google everything, a lot of people even go look for build before even starting to level their first character. I find that a bit unfortunate, but that's not so much the issue as is when these people grab the meta build from internet and suddenly they are hot shots and in position to tell others how to play the game.

[Cyninja.2954]

@serialkicker.5274 said:People are concerned about numbers and that one build that is only thing that matters at the moment. People are talking about their time being wasted as if this is their job and they are getting payed for every second of it. If you have exactly 6 min for that dungeon path to spend and 6 min and a half would be too much, then you are playing the wrong game.

As was pointed out multiple times, the difference between a poor performance and a good performance is more than a couple of seconds. Most often toxicity results in failure of completing a task or engagement, not in a slower success. As such your example would have to be amended to: if you want to complete the dungeon or not complete the dungeon, then you are playing the wrong game.

That does not give people a right to be toxic, but it is unrelated to damage meters. People in general use the information provided by damage meters AFTER something went wrong and even then, it's preferable to the alternative of guessing which element of the party is at fault.

@serialkicker.5274 said:In no other game I have played, did I hear, "my time is being wasted because matchmaking put me into worse team/ because I got worse team members, because that one team member doesn't have that exact gear and build some pro guild on internet told him to etc...

If you haven't seen this behavior in any other game, you have never done challenging content in other games or are ignoring gouping mechanisms or gearing possibilities in those other games (to essentially bypass or circumvent the challenge). Efficiency and desire to compelte content is present in literally every MMO on every level.

@serialkicker.5274 said:What happened to just roll with it and go from that? If you enjoy the group and you work well together, then what else matters?

Tell me how this works out for you for raids and challenge mode fractals after 1 day... 1 week... 1 month... 1 year... etc.

You are making an assumption which is simply often not present when things turn toxic: things working well together. If things were working well, there would be no toxicity (unless the person is a jerk, in which case he'd be a jerk either way and it's unrelated to him using a damage meter).

@serialkicker.5274 said:Is there not a single positive thing about dps meters? Of course there is something positive. But we can find positive in almost everything, if we look into it enough.I believe there is absolutely no need for dps meters and I'm saddened it came so far that people feel the need to monitor their gameplay. I am all for pushing yourself to improve your performance, but this is not the way. Relying on third party software to monitor every point of your damage you do is really quite sad.

I would be more than willing to have a game implemented damage meter or way of monitoring performance. As for your believe, once again, we had the time of uninformed groups and it was in no way better than now (for the bazillionth time, it was even worse). So no, I disagree that no damage meter would in any way make the core issue better. The core issue being: the performance disparity between people who have spent time honing and understanding their class, abilities, traits and rotations and those who haven't is on a scale of 10-15 times meaning 1 player performing close to maximum efficiency can easily replace up to or more than 10 players who run run-of-the-mill selfmade inefficient builds.

@serialkicker.5274 said:Before people come with their highly predictable argument like "Just make your own group, dude), please consider and take your own advice. You make your own group or guild for that purpose as well. Don't join regular lfgs with no requirements (or in a lot of cases in my experience, even into groups with first timers) and then expect people to have exactly the gear, experience and knowledge you want them to have. Make your own group and keep that attitude there. Don't come there and teach people how to speedrun in their first ever dungeon.

Absolutely agree, if people join your group which had no requirements in place, they should not get toxic or mention damage meters. They should simply leave, even more so if it's a chill group.

I'd wager though that the main problems arise from people joining into groups and not performing the role which was searched for:

• no proper boon uptime as a bon support
• bad healing as a healer support
• bad damage as a damage dealer

That said, some content is VERY old like dungeons. The common expectation is that people know the content after such a long time (which I find unfortunate but time is a factor). As such some qualifiers are beneficial like: first time run, relaxed, chill or w/e. This goes hand in hand with people expecting cinematics to get skipped for exmaple. This is not new content.

@serialkicker.5274 said:It's no secret that an average gamer today has little patience and competence to play and learn the game as it should be learned and was meant to. At least in the past.Today it's a norm to just google everything, a lot of people even go look for build before even starting to level their first character. I find that a bit unfortunate, but that's not so much the issue as is when these people grab the meta build from internet and suddenly they are hot shots and in position to tell others how to play the game.

I'd be more than happy if even half of the players in this game actually googled anything or even spent 10 minutes on understanding their class. Then maybe we could actually start considering not needing damage meters.

[Shadow Chaser.1948]

This 3rd party dps meter gotta go. I don't like it either but I use it coz its the only one we have atm. I don't understand why Anet don't work on their own meter and oh yeah Build template.There are few toxic players. But, as long as you do your part decent enough, they don't usually bother you.In my exp, usually the low li people ( like 100 to 250) are the most toxic in raid. High li 1000+ are just there to have fun. They don't usually care and if they did they don't pug anyway. Also, toxicity level rise when 2 or 3 of their friend pug with someone else lfg and start telling everyone switch to this class or that and start dictating someone's else lfg to suit class they want to play.If I want to run 2 druid and 2 chrono, it's my lfg. Leave me alone and make your own group. But, they are not happy with it. They like to join and start arguing why rev and fb is better than 2 chrono comp. Is it better? maybe or may be not. Why can't they just leave other's people lfg alone if it's not their style.

[serialkicker.5274]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

As was pointed out multiple times, the difference between a poor performance and a good performance is more than a couple of seconds. Most often toxicity results in failure of completing a task or engagement, not in a slower success. As such your example would have to be amended to: if you want to complete the dungeon or not complete the dungeon, then you are playing the wrong game.Of course difference between good performance and and bad performance is big. What I'm talking about is the fact that you don't need meta build or dps meter to reach good performance. I have done countless of dungeons (full clears) with average groups with their own builds and it took about 2-3 minutes more than average speedrun. Of course, it depends on the path. You also get a lot more loot.

That does not give people a right to be toxic, but it is unrelated to damage meters. People in general use the information provided by damage meters AFTER something went wrong and even then, it's preferable to the alternative of guessing which element of the party is at fault.I'm sorry, but I don't know where you found these people. In my experience and experience of people I talked to, there are many cases, where dps meter is looked at all the time, not just after the failure. Maybe you are only counting extreme cases where people get kicked for underperforming? I am counting people who are boasting, keep talking about their dps, humiliating others for their dps, talking trash about certain classes and much more. Because that contributes to bad experience and dps meter contributes to that problem. I've been in many, many guilds over the years. Even among guildies, where people usually keep their toxic behaviour to a lower level, because it's a guild run, it is still present. They don't straight up tell others they suck and should uninstall, but they can't keep themselves from making stupid and unecessary jokes and rude comments that sooner than later leave bad impression for new comers and then are afraid to join that content again or lose interest. I even get a lot of such people coming to my guild with 10+ ap and share such experiences with me and tell me they avoided this content for that reason.

If you haven't seen this behavior in any other game, you have never done challenging content in other games or are ignoring gouping mechanisms or gearing possibilities in those other games (to essentially bypass or circumvent the challenge). Efficiency and desire to compelte content is present in literally every MMO on every level.I should mention in first post that I'm not strictly talking about mmos only, apologies. I am aware this is the issue in other mmos as well, even thought I haven't played them.But I'm talking about other games. And I'm pretty sure I have played way more challenging and competitive games than guild wars 2. Sure, you would perhaps say it's not a fair comparison, because they are different genres, but I don't see why not. In other genres, we are fine by just relying on our build to contribute to the team and no one asks for your stats or build in such way. If you contribute in any way, then there is no problem.

@"serialkicker.5274" said:What happened to just roll with it and go from that? If you enjoy the group and you work well together, then what else matters?

Tell me how this works out for you for raids and challenge mode fractals after 1 day... 1 week... 1 month... 1 year... etc.Works very well, for 6+ years now for the content I do. How do games with challenging group content without dps meters work then? They make it work, like it was meant it. Practice and finding like minded people that are willing to play at that level. Not come into random pug group and expect everyone to have exact the build, gear and experience that you think they should have.You are making an assumption which is simply often not present when things turn toxic: things working well together. If things were working well, there would be no toxicity (unless the person is a jerk, in which case he'd be a jerk either way and it's unrelated to him using a damage meter).There is only assumptions on your part. I know what I have seen and experienced in 6+ years. Define "things working well". Because it seems that if you don't skip 80% of the instance to rush to final chest, things are not going well according to many. Even if you clear mobs with ease. Common sense now indicates that this part is to be skipped and that's what people are doing. If you don't play along, you will get flak for it.

I am pretty sure you have quite many hours in game from what I remember from some other post I've seen from you. I have a hard time imagining you are being honest with me here. I am sorry to say. But I really don't believe you are true when you are implying that toxicity comes from things not going well. I think everyone knows very well poeple are toxic for many, many reasons and a lot of those reasons are not reasonable at all.

@"serialkicker.5274" said:Is there not a single positive thing about dps meters? Of course there is something positive. But we can find positive in almost everything, if we look into it enough.I believe there is absolutely no need for dps meters and I'm saddened it came so far that people feel the need to monitor their gameplay. I am all for pushing yourself to improve your performance, but this is not the way. Relying on third party software to monitor every point of your damage you do is really quite sad.

I would be more than willing to have a game implemented damage meter or way of monitoring performance. As for your believe, once again, we had the time of uninformed groups and it was in no way better than now (for the bazillionth time, it was even worse). So no, I disagree that no damage meter would in any way make the core issue better. The core issue being: the performance disparity between people who have spent time honing and understanding their class, abilities, traits and rotations and those who haven't is on a scale of 10-15 times meaning 1 player performing close to maximum efficiency can easily replace up to or more than 10 players who run run-of-the-mill selfmade inefficient builds.Just because you think it wasn't any better, doesn't mean having dps meters is a good decision. This is like saying "Eh, people will always be rude, one more tool for them to justify their behaviour isn't gonna make it any worse, so doesn't matter. There are a lot of better, genuinely decent solutions or improvements that were suggested over the years on forums, to make things better. Just to name a few: Better tutorials, better LFG tool with more funcionality, rewards scaling according to how well you cleared the instance and if you completed or skipped events and much more.

@"serialkicker.5274" said:Before people come with their highly predictable argument like "Just make your own group, dude), please consider and take your own advice. You make your own group or guild for that purpose as well. Don't join regular lfgs with no requirements (or in a lot of cases in my experience, even into groups with first timers) and then expect people to have exactly the gear, experience and knowledge you want them to have. Make your own group and keep that attitude there. Don't come there and teach people how to speedrun in their first ever dungeon.

I'd wager though that the main problems arise from people joining into groups and not performing the role which was searched for:

• no proper boon uptime as a bon support
• bad healing as a healer support
• bad damage as a damage dealerI'm using same argument as above. Things are going well, yet some wannabe pro decides to rush forward despite lfg being no rush or no skipping. He rushes to boss and waits there for entire party to clear all mobs and catches up on him, because he can't be bothered and that's below him to even consider clearing trash. (Got many, many of those). Or 25k ap dude joins "first timers here, we need help", start rushing ahead immediately, leaving those noobies to die repeatedly until they can manage to reahc almighty dude that will carry them, please bow and cherish him! Or something that happened to me personally (that is obviously just one example of many), was doing HoTW with engineer. All three paths going well and smooth and then only third path in underwater part did some dude notice me using grenades. I was switching between harpoon and nades. He went completely mad and started insulting me, wtf am I doing with nades? I asked what's the problem and what should I be using in his opinion. He didn't manage to answer in his raging and kept trashing me.

I'd be more than happy if even half of the players in this game actually googled anything or even spent 10 minutes on understanding their class. Then maybe we could actually start considering not needing damage meters.

This is where we simply have to disagree, because we share different idea of how games should be played. Googling for a recipe or how to acquire certain gear and such is obviously no problem, but googling your entire build and rotation instead of taking few minutes to read through your skills and traits to see what a class can do and then practice and get your own experience and play with weapons and playstyle you enjoy, is complete nonsense.Many people believe just simply by not having a meta build, you are already wasting their time. Idk how these people can enjoy games to be honest.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"serialkicker.5274" said:Don't come there and teach people how to speedrun in their first ever dungeon.

It's the opposite that happens all the time, people that join "speedruns" when it is their first ever dungeon. All the other side effects, including kicking, is because those players join groups they don't belong to. As for players joining training runs or casual groups then kicking people out, pictures for proof please.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"serialkicker.5274" said:I'm using same argument as above. Things are going well, yet some wannabe pro decides to rush forward despite lfg being no rush or no skipping. He rushes to boss and waits there for entire party to clear all mobs and catches up on him, because he can't be bothered and that's below him to even consider clearing trash. (Got many, many of those). Or 25k ap dude joins "first timers here, we need help", start rushing ahead immediately, leaving those noobies to die repeatedly until they can manage to reahc almighty dude that will carry them, please bow and cherish him! Or something that happened to me personally (that is obviously just one example of many), was doing HoTW with engineer. All three paths going well and smooth and then only third path in underwater part did some dude notice me using grenades. I was switching between harpoon and nades. He went completely mad and started insulting me, kitten am I doing with nades? I asked what's the problem and what should I be using in his opinion. He didn't manage to answer in his raging and kept trashing me.

What does this have to do with the topic of dps meters? Those guys would do the same they did with or without meters.

[Cyninja.2954]

@serialkicker.5274 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

As was pointed out multiple times, the difference between a poor performance and a good performance is more than a couple of seconds. Most often toxicity results in failure of completing a task or engagement, not in a slower success. As such your example would have to be amended to: if you want to complete the dungeon or not complete the dungeon, then you are playing the wrong game.Of course difference between good performance and and bad performance is big. What I'm talking about is the fact that you don't need meta build or dps meter to reach good performance. I have done countless of dungeons (full clears) with average groups with their own builds and it took about 2-3 minutes more than average speedrun. Of course, it depends on the path. You also get a lot more loot.

and I'm quite sure on multiple of those runs people were running dps meters and did not say a thing. Also dungeons are hardly content I would currently count as a problem zone for dps requirements given how the past 2 expansions pushed damage by nearly 300%.. Again, performance and output become issues once success is imparied. The random troll who likes to flex is will do so with or without dps meter.

@serialkicker.5274 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:That does not give people a right to be toxic, but it is unrelated to damage meters. People in general use the information provided by damage meters AFTER something went wrong and even then, it's preferable to the alternative of guessing which element of the party is at fault.I'm sorry, but I don't know where you found these people. In my experience and experience of people I talked to, there are many cases, where dps meter is looked at all the time, not just after the failure. Maybe you are only counting extreme cases where people get kicked for underperforming? I am counting people who are boasting, keep talking about their dps, humiliating others for their dps, talking trash about certain classes and much more. Because that contributes to bad experience and dps meter contributes to that problem. I've been in many, many guilds over the years. Even among guildies, where people usually keep their toxic behaviour to a lower level, because it's a guild run, it is still present. They don't straight up tell others they suck and should uninstall, but they can't keep themselves from making stupid and unecessary jokes and rude comments that sooner than later leave bad impression for new comers and then are afraid to join that content again or lose interest. I even get a lot of such people coming to my guild with 10+ ap and share such experiences with me and tell me they avoided this content for that reason.

Past LFGs were pretty consistent to even disallow classes BEFOR entering dungeons and exclusive to players:

• only 10k AP
• no necromancer or ranger
• warrior only
• exp or kick

If your guildies are toxic, that is an issue with your guild and the people you run. We have always approached inexperienced players with ways to help them and offered constructive feedback. If you are underperforming a lot as dps (and again, the gap is HUGE in this game) then guildies should point this out and try to help you improve.

@serialkicker.5274 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:If you haven't seen this behavior in any other game, you have never done challenging content in other games or are ignoring gouping mechanisms or gearing possibilities in those other games (to essentially bypass or circumvent the challenge). Efficiency and desire to compelte content is present in literally every MMO on every level.I should mention in first post that I'm not strictly talking about mmos only, apologies. I am aware this is the issue in other mmos as well, even thought I haven't played them.But I'm talking about other games. And I'm pretty sure I have played way more challenging and competitive games than guild wars 2. Sure, you would perhaps say it's not a fair comparison, because they are different genres, but I don't see why not. In other genres, we are fine by just relying on our build to contribute to the team and no one asks for your stats or build in such way. If you contribute in any way, then there is no problem.

Toxicity in competative games has been high, always. Not sure which games you have played but take a look at League of Legends, DOTA, CS:GO. If you think GW2 is toxic you have been living in a bubble.

@serialkicker.5274 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@serialkicker.5274 said:What happened to just roll with it and go from that? If you enjoy the group and you work well together, then what else matters?

Tell me how this works out for you for raids and challenge mode fractals after 1 day... 1 week... 1 month... 1 year... etc.Works very well, for 6+ years now for the content I do. How do games with challenging group content without dps meters work then? They make it work, like it was meant it. Practice and finding like minded people that are willing to play at that level. Not come into random pug group and expect everyone to have exact the build, gear and experience that you think they should have.

Most games have dps meters or allow them. Others have tight trinities where it is easily possible to distinguish who made a mistake. We don't have a trinity and the ingame information is not well designed to see how each member of the group performed. Care to share which challenging game you are refering to which has no dps meter and people finish challenging group content without requirements?

Also no it has not worked for 6+ years. Raids have been in game for 4 years, high level fractals were VERY exclusive and dungeons had a ton of requirements to even enter a group. That is without considering the fact that dungeons are paper easy to begin with and were speedrun since vanilla so one could argue there was no challenging group content until CM fractals (and fractals saw almost no play from a majority of the player base in vanilla on top of that) and raids.

@serialkicker.5274 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:You are making an assumption which is simply often not present when things turn toxic: things working well together. If things were working well, there would be no toxicity (unless the person is a jerk, in which case he'd be a jerk either way and it's unrelated to him using a damage meter).There is only assumptions on your part. I know what I have seen and experienced in 6+ years. Define "things working well". Because it seems that if you don't skip 80% of the instance to rush to final chest, things are not going well according to many. Even if you clear mobs with ease. Common sense now indicates that this part is to be skipped and that's what people are doing. If you don't play along, you will get flak for it.

I am pretty sure you have quite many hours in game from what I remember from some other post I've seen from you. I have a hard time imagining you are being honest with me here. I am sorry to say. But I really don't believe you are true when you are implying that toxicity comes from things not going well. I think everyone knows very well poeple are toxic for many, many reasons and a lot of those reasons are not reasonable at all.

You and I are talking about completely different content her. This is not about dungeons or if people know how to run them. That is unrealted to dps meters given that with 5k dps per player you can instant kill most dungeon bosses within a couple of seconds (and with 20k per player they melt within less than 5 seconds).

You are talking about people rushing through content and people who do not know the content. People in this thread are talking about failing content due to lack of one or more people not performing adequatly enough which a dps meter will show.

@serialkicker.5274 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@serialkicker.5274 said:Is there not a single positive thing about dps meters? Of course there is something positive. But we can find positive in almost everything, if we look into it enough.I believe there is absolutely no need for dps meters and I'm saddened it came so far that people feel the need to monitor their gameplay. I am all for pushing yourself to improve your performance, but this is not the way. Relying on third party software to monitor every point of your damage you do is really quite sad.

I would be more than willing to have a game implemented damage meter or way of monitoring performance. As for your believe, once again, we had the time of uninformed groups and it was in no way better than now (for the bazillionth time, it was even worse). So no, I disagree that no damage meter would in any way make the core issue better. The core issue being: the performance disparity between people who have spent time honing and understanding their class, abilities, traits and rotations and those who haven't is on a scale of 10-15 times meaning 1 player performing close to maximum efficiency can easily replace up to or more than 10 players who run run-of-the-mill selfmade inefficient builds.Just because you think it wasn't any better, doesn't mean having dps meters is a good decision. This is like saying "Eh, people will always be rude, one more tool for them to justify their behaviour isn't gonna make it any worse, so doesn't matter. There are a lot of better, genuinely decent solutions or improvements that were suggested over the years on forums, to make things better. Just to name a few: Better tutorials, better LFG tool with more funcionality, rewards scaling according to how well you cleared the instance and if you completed or skipped events and much more.

True, WoW had a system where people had to complete challenge modes to even be allowed into some content during Pandaria. That would work too.

I have always been for a better LFG system, better tutorials, more encouraged mechanics via game play. We don;t have those yet do we? As far as challenging open world content or challenging content in which people could learn: I recall the outrage of the player base every time something like this was tried. I doubt this would go over well. I fail to see how good alternatives which are not present make for a good argument to remove dps meters.

@serialkicker.5274 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@serialkicker.5274 said:Before people come with their highly predictable argument like "Just make your own group, dude), please consider and take your own advice. You make your own group or guild for that purpose as well. Don't join regular lfgs with no requirements (or in a lot of cases in my experience, even into groups with first timers) and then expect people to have exactly the gear, experience and knowledge you want them to have. Make your own group and keep that attitude there. Don't come there and teach people how to speedrun in their first ever dungeon.

I'd wager though that the main problems arise from people joining into groups and not performing the role which was searched for:

• no proper boon uptime as a bon support
• bad healing as a healer support
• bad damage as a damage dealerI'm using same argument as above. Things are going well, yet some wannabe pro decides to rush forward despite lfg being no rush or no skipping. He rushes to boss and waits there for entire party to clear all mobs and catches up on him, because he can't be bothered and that's below him to even consider clearing trash. (Got many, many of those). Or 25k ap dude joins "first timers here, we need help", start rushing ahead immediately, leaving those noobies to die repeatedly until they can manage to reahc almighty dude that will carry them, please bow and cherish him! Or something that happened to me personally (that is obviously just one example of many), was doing HoTW with engineer. All three paths going well and smooth and then only third path in underwater part did some dude notice me using grenades. I was switching between harpoon and nades. He went completely mad and started insulting me, kitten am I doing with nades? I asked what's the problem and what should I be using in his opinion. He didn't manage to answer in his raging and kept trashing me.

Yeah, kick him and move on. Toxicity is not warrented. Again, what does this have to do with damage meters?

@serialkicker.5274 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:I'd be more than happy if even half of the players in this game actually googled anything or even spent 10 minutes on understanding their class. Then maybe we could actually start considering not needing damage meters.

This is where we simply have to disagree, because we share different idea of how games should be played. Googling for a recipe or how to acquire certain gear and such is obviously no problem, but googling your entire build and rotation instead of taking few minutes to read through your skills and traits to see what a class can do and then practice and get your own experience and play with weapons and playstyle you enjoy, is complete nonsense.Many people believe just simply by not having a meta build, you are already wasting their time. Idk how these people can enjoy games to be honest.

Oh I agree, a lot of people can't play their build no matter if googled or not. That's why I added 10 minute practice at the end.

[serialkicker.5274]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"serialkicker.5274" said:Don't come there and teach people how to speedrun in their first ever dungeon.

It's the opposite that happens all the time, people that join "speedruns" when it is their first ever dungeon. All the other side effects, including kicking, is because those players join groups they don't belong to. As for players joining training runs or casual groups then kicking people out, pictures for proof please.

Oh, so I'm lying and need to provide proof, but what you are saying is automatically correct and true? > @maddoctor.2738 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

and I'm quite sure on multiple of those runs people were running dps meters and did not say a thing. Also dungeons are hardly content I would currently count as a problem zone for dps requirements given how the past 2 expansions pushed damage by nearly 300%.. Again, performance and output become issues once success is imparied. The random troll who likes to flex is will do so with or without dps meter.So your argument is, there are people who use dps meter and aren't toxic, so there is no problem. We can sort out every problem in existence with that logic :)

@Cyninja.2954 said:Ok, I'll try not to get into these long walls of texts again, so not gonna quote and reply to everything. We all know those can go on. Perhaps I got carried a bit away and not just address dps meter, but that's because I wanted to give examples of toxic behaviour. And dps meter is not the only source of toxic behaviour. But it's one contributing to it. Same as meta build, even though, both, meta builds and dps meter have some positive aspects to it.

What I'm saying is, I don't believe we need this kind of things in our games. I would like to see people improve and learn by playing the game, learning from their own mistakes and making their own characters, not rely on other telling them how to play. If there is a group you don't wish to play with, because they are underperforming, simply make your own group and deal with people joining while not meeting requirements, just like the other side is making groups for casual runs and running into same problems.

There are just things that shouldn't belong in games, simple as that. Same as Taco for example. Already gave an example of that in that topic related to it. Quite a few people join guild missions with taco on, make it in first shot because they are basically cheating and then boast about it. Or even if they don't boast and want to help, they are like "dude, just get taco, it's ez". Puts pressure on those who don't want to cheat through it, but all these people made it in first try and they are now waiting for those 2 or three to complete it normally. And that is another tool that was supposed to be helpful, but it's not simple as that.

[maddoctor.2738]

@serialkicker.5274 said:Oh, so I'm lying and need to provide proof, but what you are saying is automatically correct and true?

Not at all. Is it so wrong to ask someone to backup what they claim? After all you can post anything you want on a game forum (or any forum) so providing some substance would be helpful.

[serialkicker.5274]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@serialkicker.5274 said:Oh, so I'm lying and need to provide proof, but what you are saying is automatically correct and true?

Not at all. Is it so wrong to ask someone to backup what they claim? After all you can post anything you want on a game forum (or any forum) so providing some substance would be helpful.

If you are asking if I keep screenshots of cancerous behavior on my computer, then sorry, nope. =) My usual procedure is block and leave the group and report If I think it's worth it.

[Vinceman.4572]

@"serialkicker.5274" said:And dps meter is not the only source of toxic behaviour. But it's one contributing to it. Same as meta build, even though, both, meta builds and dps meter have some positive aspects to it.

No, they don't. If we didn't have meta builds and dps meters in the game toxic people would still be toxic no matter what. On content that could be overcome with different strategies players with different opinions would come together and it would lead to conflicts. Either we get Hello Kitty Online in GW2 or they just make a single player game out of it (not to mention that outside of some stuff this game is pretty much single player friendly.

What I'm saying is, I don't believe we need this kind of things in our games. I would like to see people improve and learn by playing the game, learning from their own mistakes and making their own characters, not rely on other telling them how to play. If there is a group you don't wish to play with, because they are underperforming, simply make your own group and deal with people joining while not meeting requirements, just like the other side is making groups for casual runs and running into same problems.

Well, how long would you give players time to finally learn to play the game? GW2 is almost 7 years old now and still there are people with 20k+ AP - meaning they have at least played this game - that don't know anything about using their class properly or that it would help them and their group. I mean, you talk about dungeons. Dungeons are outdated and just play a very minor role in this game. The actual focus would be higher fractals (T3+) and raids. Concerning your posts, you aren't doing T4s dailies like I'm doing straight for several years now with little breaks. People still haven't learned till today so that you have to ask for certain classes + builds because otherwise it can be a pita to do things you are usually doing routinely. I often find myself just looking for "people being able to T4" because according to you that should be enough imho but the reality is painting a different picture. A lot of players do not know what they are doing, neither on Thaumanova ooze, Mai Trin, Siren's Reef, Shattered Observatory, room with switches in Underground Facility and many more. Some of that content is in the game for years now and the players I meet are not new to T4s.So, I barely leave groups and heck I can count the groups I left due to toxicity but the groups that weren't able to clear stuff I left in the past is by far the majority and nearly uncountable. And trust me I wiped a lot with pugs to try to get through with and help them.

There are just things that shouldn't belong in games, simple as that. Same as Taco for example. Already gave an example of that in that topic related to it. Quite a few people join guild missions with taco on, make it in first shot because they are basically cheating and then boast about it. Or even if they don't boast and want to help, they are like "dude, just get taco, it's ez". Puts pressure on those who don't want to cheat through it, but all these people made it in first try and they are now waiting for those 2 or three to complete it normally. And that is another tool that was supposed to be helpful, but it's not simple as that.

Those ego dudes would still boast even if Taco wouldn't be there, just saying.I'm using Taco myself due to several reasons for example guild missions that are very very old content and haven't gotten an update since. These are things you want to get done. The faster the better.At last, think about it. All the situations you mentioned are not the rule or standard. They are exceptions. If you have people in the guild behaving like this it's a problem of the guild or yours that you haven't already left that community or kicked them out for their skritty behavior. The same applies for dungeon runs. I still do them and it's not the majority that joins chilled runs and then rushes them or being toxic. What happens the most and with an overwhelming majority is that newer players below level 80 join "level 80 only" groups and then "may" have a problem. I say "may" because in lots of runs the experienced people don't say anything and help (a.k.a. carry) them through without being rude or complaining at all. And all that without even mentioning or noticing their dps meter. I'm using it myself almost since its release and haven't called out beginners or people with very few experience.

[serialkicker.5274]

@"Vinceman.4572" said:

No, they don't. If we didn't have meta builds and dps meters in the game toxic people would still be toxic no matter what. On content that could be overcome with different strategies players with different opinions would come together and it would lead to conflicts. Either we get Hello Kitty Online in GW2 or they just make a single player game out of it (not to mention that outside of some stuff this game is pretty much single player friendly.If we didn't have guns, people who want to murder, would do so without a gun, so giving everyone a gun shouldn't be a problem, right?

Well, how long would you give players time to finally learn to play the game? GW2 is almost 7 years old now and still there are people with 20k+ AP - meaning they have at least played this game - that don't know anything about using their class properly or that it would help them and their group. I mean, you talk about dungeons.And I had plenty of meta boys coming into my group and not knowing certain mobs even exist. Every time we have been to champ harpy in SE, at least one says "lol, didn't even know this exists". I also noticed a lot of people don't even know some mechanics of bosses. Why? It's clear they were thaught how to speedrun through dungeon on their first run. Putting feedback on non reflectable boss, putting aegis and trying to block Champ Icebrood troll etc.Oh, so much challenge, yeah. Let's put stealth and swiftness and run to the end. Ohhh, that challenge! Those who intend to learn, can do so on their own, just as much as they could by reading a guide. How did I learn this when it was my first mmorpg and still the only one I play? How do people learn other games that don't hold their hands? Because they have no choice. This game is already super casual and rather easy, now you even want to give them cheats like taco, because god forbid it might take anything more than one button while scratching their ass to complete the content.

There are just things that shouldn't belong in games, simple as that. Same as Taco for example. Already gave an example of that in that topic related to it. Quite a few people join guild missions with taco on, make it in first shot because they are basically cheating and then boast about it. Or even if they don't boast and want to help, they are like "dude, just get taco, it's ez". Puts pressure on those who don't want to cheat through it, but all these people made it in first try and they are now waiting for those 2 or three to complete it normally. And that is another tool that was supposed to be helpful, but it's not simple as that.

Those ego dudes would still boast even if Taco wouldn't be there, just saying.I'm using Taco myself due to several reasons for example guild missions that are very very old content and haven't gotten an update since. These are things you want to get done. The faster the better.And that's the problem. If you don't enjoy it, don't play it. "Nah, let's force ourselves through content I don't like with cheats!" What a logic! If it's so old then you should know it without cheating. But maybe you never learned it in the first place?At last, think about it. All the situations you mentioned are not the rule or standard. They are exceptions. If you have people in the guild behaving like this it's a problem of the guild or yours that you haven't already left that community or kicked them out for their skritty behavior. The same applies for dungeon runs. I still do them and it's not the majority that joins chilled runs and then rushes them or being toxic. What happens the most and with an overwhelming majority is that newer players below level 80 join "level 80 only" groups and then "may" have a problem. I say "may" because in lots of runs the experienced people don't say anything and help (a.k.a. carry) them through without being rude or complaining at all.Cool, you shared you experience and I shared mine. Now where is the limit when this becomes a problem. Does every group in existence has to be toxic in order for this stuff to be considered bad? Cheating is bad, but not everyone does it, so it's ok, by your logic.