Your DPS is Trash

[SoV.5139]

@rabenpriester.7129 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@rabenpriester.7129 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@rabenpriester.7129 said:This thread is a perfect example of a toxic, anti-fun and braindead community.Few players do not make a community.

Something something rotten apple, something something the bunch.Something something one rotten apple, something something the apple orchard is rotten

Something something

Fallacy of Composition

In short, again, few players do not make a whole community.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Fallacy_fallacy

Don't throw around fallacies like handgrenades if you have no idea what you're talking about. You're dumbing down discussions, it's just not a good discussion culture. Has become kind of a trend in the pseudointellectual parts of the internet, and it's a shame.

"A rotten apple spoils the bunch" is exactly the right proverb for this kind of situation. Now get out.

...pseudointellectual parts of the internet.

Q: If someone from the 1950s traveled to 2019 what would be the most difficult thing to explain to them?A: I have a device in my pocket that I can use to access all accumulated human knowledge, and I use it to view pictures of cats and argue with people.

[IchigoHatake.5098]

@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:didn't 3rd party dps tools used to only show the dps of others using the tool? seems like this would be the best solution. big laughs at ppl who think dps tools are needed to clear content.

You are right, you don't need dps tools to clear content, but it allows you to see what's going right and what's not. This way you can improve. You can also see which player is not pulling their weight.

Take a look at this: Did we kill the boss? Sure... but so many players here did not really contribute; they did not deserve the kill. I did over 40% of the total damage. Just because the boss dies, doesn't mean everything is fine. Not only was the damage low, some of them died to mechanics. You often have people not doing their part and are carried by those who know what they are doing. Without dps tools, you wouldn't know this, and players will continue to think that they are doing "good".

[Shikaru.7618]

@IchigoHatake.5098 said:

@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:didn't 3rd party dps tools used to only show the dps of others using the tool? seems like this would be the best solution. big laughs at ppl who think dps tools are needed to clear content.

You are right, you don't need dps tools to clear content, but it allows you to see what's going right and what's not. This way you can improve. You can also see which player is not pulling their weight.

Take a look at this:

Did we kill the boss? Sure... but so many players here did not really contribute; they did not deserve the kill. Just because the boss dies, doesn't mean everything is fine. You often have people not doing their part and are carried by those who know what they are doing. Without dps tools, you wouldn't know this, and players will continue to think that they are doing "good".

The next incoming argument is going to be so what if you were 3x dps of the next highest? They still would have killed just taken 2 minutes longer. Stop being toxic.

shrug

Honestly the easiest way you can assess whether or not you're being carried is ask yourself the hypothetical "If this squad was comprised of 10 of me would we still kill?" Ie. Everyone got hit by mechanics the same number of times (maybe not all at the same time), and pulled the same numbers would the boss still die? That's probably a wasted question since antidps meter usually also means lacking self reflection.

[Henry.5713]

How about someone who lies dead on the ground for most of the fight on all of the bosses you cleared that night? They still made sure to show up and spend some of their precious time on "raiding", right? They deserve loot as much as everyone else and come on, the bosses still died...Let's get into the same way of thinking - there should be some "protection" in place to stop people from seeing corpses and healthbars on the UI? It only leads to toxic behaviour, right?

Whether someone contributed 0% (being dead the entire fight) or at least 10% of what someone else managed to do, it is still less than they should have.

[Zero.6082]

I totally agree with the thread. I ran a fractal with a group last night 88

A Druid using a long bowTwo daredevils,A supposed healer renegade who didn’t have agony resistance.

And me a perfect meta damage dragon hunter according to discretze meta!

I start my rotation and in seconds get wrecked on final boss. (No support)We tried a few more times with more combinations none “meta” except my build. Called it quits. I got a whisper.... “we would do better if your dps was better” now granted I have done dps checks before using gw2 golem.... but I don’t have a meter because computer has crashed before.... So to give context

My holo isn’t meta did 16-18k dps with marauder gear, 20 to 22 k with food and utilities..... yes this is my consolation to the metas out there: numbers are better.... but in a perfect world....

Back to my point.... if your dead you don’t do damage.... meta or not .... if you don’t have support then it doesn’t matter .... and even if you have perfect meta you can still be ridiculed for not being.... perfect....

For you fantastic number crunchers out there I am grateful you did the work to find out what happens when you have the perfect world.... but I want everyone to realize the world isn’t perfect.... so to those with the dps meters I pose a question to you? What happens if you don’t have proper perfect world? My suggestion to the forum writer is play how you want to play and do the best to maximize your efficiency with out sacrificing to the perfect world. Get the food, the utilities.... but as of right now I changed my dragon hunter traits to what I liked.... (more team and personal support less damage meta) and now I am just doing just fine. Also did it ever occur to anyone that the people who write those builds might have a stake in them.... just a rumor but I was told the people who own most the scholar runes in the game write the website builds then sell the gold on the side for cash. I can’t prove it but strength runes are cheaper, easier to maintain, and really close to the same numbers....food for thought.

[Vinceman.4572]

@"Zero.6082" said:I totally agree with the thread. I ran a fractal with a group last night 88

A Druid using a long bowTwo daredevils,A supposed healer renegade who didn’t have agony resistance.

And me a perfect meta damage dragon hunter according to discretze meta!

I start my rotation and in seconds get wrecked on final boss. (No support)We tried a few more times with more combinations none “meta” except my build. Called it quits. I got a whisper.... “we would do better if your dps was better” now granted I have done dps checks before using gw2 golem.... but I don’t have a meter because computer has crashed before.... So to give context

My holo isn’t meta did 16-18k dps with marauder gear, 20 to 22 k with food and utilities..... yes this is my consolation to the metas out there: numbers are better.... but in a perfect world....

Back to my point.... if your dead you don’t do damage.... meta or not .... if you don’t have support then it doesn’t matter .... and even if you have perfect meta you can still be ridiculed for not being.... perfect....

For you fantastic number crunchers out there I am grateful you did the work to find out what happens when you have the perfect world.... but I want everyone to realize the world isn’t perfect.... so to those with the dps meters I pose a question to you? What happens if you don’t have proper perfect world? My suggestion to the forum writer is play how you want to play and do the best to maximize your efficiency with out sacrificing to the perfect world. Get the food, the utilities.... but as of right now I changed my dragon hunter traits to what I liked.... (more team and personal support less damage meta) and now I am just doing just fine. Also did it ever occur to anyone that the people who write those builds might have a stake in them.... just a rumor but I was told the people who own most the scholar runes in the game write the website builds then sell the gold on the side for cash. I can’t prove it but strength runes are cheaper, easier to maintain, and really close to the same numbers....food for thought.

If you really had a druid with a long bow in the group + those daredevils + a player who didn't have agony resistance and they or one of them whispered you I would totally have backfired and addressed the real issue! And tbh. you can perfectly survive the final boss at Chaos without a healer. Especially as dh, you don't even need to retrait for that boss and can completely play glass cannon there. If your team isn't very good just change one utility, if must then 2 for example to Retreat! that gives an additional aegis and "Stand your Ground!" for extra stability on this boss. Bane Signet isn't worth it in bad groups except for the extra cc due to its active so either change that and/or one of the other utility skills as well. If you know your class + rotation you'll do enough damage to still be easily top dps in such groups, seriously!In addition, with F2 you have a decent group heal, F3 another group wide aegis and with scepter you can shortrange the boss without getting hits from him if it's necessary for example if your group doesn't use cc for his break bar.

Still, if I were you I would have left the group unless the team is not performing perfectly. Otherwise it's very disrespectful to join a t4 group without enough agony resistance. If a player is able to carry his weight below 150, fine, nothing speaks against it. If the team struggles, no way and he deserves a kick.

[IchigoHatake.5098]

@Zero.6082Having a meta build doesn't mean anything if you can't use it properly. If you got a whisper saying that your dps needs to be better, it is clear that you are not playing the class very well. If you had a dps meter, you can see what you did wrong and why your dmg was lower than others.

Meta builds are made under the assumption that you have good support that have provide high boon uptime. Your group had a druid with longbow and had no one providing quickness. Your group was very far from meta. Therefore, in your case, you will definitely do better by changing your traits/build to have more support rather than going full dmg. If everyone was truly playing meta builds and playing properly, you would kill the boss so quickly that it won't have time to do damage to you. Watch any fractal speedclear and you will see that the boss dies before it can do anything. Not every group can kill bosses as fast as these people, but you can still kill it fast enough that you avoid many mechanics.

Regarding what you said about people who write builds have stake in them... Nothing is preventing you from investing in these runes/sigils. Scholar runes have also been the meta for power dps for such a long time now, so you can expect every new build for power to use them. These build creators are not putting these runes/sigils in the build just because they have a huge supply of it, they are used because they are the best. If you can prove that some other rune/sigil is better, then your rune/sigil will be the meta.

[ArchonWing.9480]

@Zero.6082 said:I totally agree with the thread. I ran a fractal with a group last night 88

A Druid using a long bowTwo daredevils,A supposed healer renegade who didn’t have agony resistance.

And me a perfect meta damage dragon hunter according to discretze meta!

Oh. Well, I guess just leave said party. You aren't paid enough to babysit and this is t4-- bringing in longbows and ranging is unacceptable. The only point to run in those groups is to complain about them later. No meme here; that's just how it always turns out.

Also, agony resistance. If you meant they literally don't have any agony resist, I would make them get some or just kick. Sometimes people just forget but otherwise that's just flat out leeching. I don't mind if they come in with like 143, but....

In any case, no point in talking crap or whatnot; you're just not going to condone this by carrying them because that's what they want, and it's best to discourage such behavior. Honestly, if you meet someone and have a good time with them, add them so you can run with them next time. Nobody has to be super elite or whatnot, but better to form with people you know you can trust a little, rather than just gamble. You know, unlike a lot of the complaints here. =p I really don't like kicking people period or being kicked (duh, I could be the weakest link) so I try to avoid the situation in the first place.

[Zero.6082]

Thanks for all the comments. :) I was hoping we came to similar conclusions and that this was a team game.

Meta/dps rotations don’t squat if the team doesn’t all play the part. I am not arguing the validity of scholar runes on paper. I am clarifying the reliability in the field. My occupation allows me to find an understanding between mathematical paper perfects and field trials. That was what I wanted to convey to the group.

My question was to pose two fronts education and understanding. Educate those why the dps meters are important, which is why explained the validity with my increased dps from food. But also to get the meta people to realize: imperfect things happen, so don’t get hung up on the numbers. I would rather beat the boss 2 mins slower if that means we complete it. You know it’s a video game... enjoy playing it. Idk why everyone is in such a rush... (other than raid boss timers). But it’s really to invite variety of play for the less fortunate who can’t afford perfection in price and ability!

I do invite people to provide the data. Because example is in the scholar runes.... what is the number difference between them and strength runes? If it is 1% but only if your health is over 90% which at times is hard to maintain.... then I say well uhm maybe we can make some considerations from a practical field over a paper perfect call. An example, I use is my revenant for hammer backline says scholar runes.... but those durability runes are awesome for survival, free and I still hit 5ks.

[Cyninja.2954]

@"Zero.6082"Well your situation is a prime example of what damage meters are good for and what meta builds are good for and well what not.

First off, the group the way describe it was setup poorly. There is no excuse for people lacking agony resistance, especially on fights which can get chaotic and a lot of damage gets thrown around (which is the case for PUG groups and Chaos fractal). Second you had no access to Quickness unless you were running Feel My Wrath, and even then it would have been not permanent which is a heavy hit in dps.

Next is the mistakes you made. First off, there is never a reason to die to a boss no matter if healer or not. Every fractal boss and content can be cleared without a healer present. This is also true for Chaos. The correct approach here for you would have been:

• make sure you are dodging the 3rd strike of the boss to not get hit by the Daze from his Spinning Cut (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Brazen_Gladiator)
• take stability (I prefer Stand your Ground but Hallowed Ground works too) for situations in which you or others are hit by the Spinning Cut, especially around sub 60% boss life for the first breakbar as to make sure people can use skills
• initiate the fight on Scepter/Focus for the Focus 5 3x block both as protection and better initial damage uptime
• take Retreat if the group needs additional aegis
• as mentioned, replace the elite trap for Feel My Wrath given your group had no access to quickness (and like no fury too unless the druid was running with a Warhorn offhand setup)
• use your F3 to prevent hits from Spinning Cut and F2 as emergency heals if the group runs low

You need to know how aggresive you can go and how well you can perform with and without a healer supporting you. The healer in fractals has become a clutch for bad players to make up for their mistakes. It is certainly not needed and as a guardian you should not immediately die at any boss. You have your base aegis up, 3 blocks from Focus 5, F3 and Lithany of Wrath for emergencies. If you do not react to all these defences melting away and your emergency 6 second immunity full heal, you are not paying attention to the fight.

TL;DR:Not going to suggar coat it, your team setup was shit. You made some mistakes and if you work on improving your class understanding you'll be able to deal with such bad teams better in the future (if you decide to not immediately leave that is).

[Asum.4960]

@"Cyninja.2954" said:The healer in fractals has become a clutch for bad players to make up for their mistakes.

Eh, I wouldn't go that far.I've seen that mentality a bunch in Fractals and it's kind of frustrating to me.

Taking a healbrand for example is like 5 minutes slower for the whole of CM's+T4 with the average group if everything goes well for the no heal group, and even though I have 600+KP and can do CM's in my sleep, I still prefer running a Support simply because it's more relaxed and for me personally generally more fun, especially due to avoiding the frequent stuns/dazes etc. in some Fractals as well as better boon uptimes almost making up entirely for the lost damage.

It being fool proof, especially when it comes to particularly nasty instability combinations and not wasting time on a wipe now and then is just a nice bonus.

Does running no heal take more skill? Yea, of course.But it just doesn't make a huge difference unless you have absolute top tier players pushing themselves to their limit going for some speed kill.Considering it's daily content, that's just too much of a hassle for me personally.

So for me, it's less about needing a Support but wanting one, and it certainly doesn't necessarily mean it's a clutch for bad players, although it can be that as well, which is nice.When it comes to daily content, I simply perfer having a smooth, fun and fast run every time, than super fast runs now and then when everybody is on top of their game, with some messes in between.

The reason this mentality bothers me is because it makes a lot of want to be good players scoff at "needing" a support, before causing multiple wipes with small mistakes themselves, before lashing out at everybody else.If it was just top players scoffing at running a support, fine. But as it is, that's one of the biggest red flags for a bad run with pugs these days for me.

I rather keep the no heal runs limited to full statics where I know all the players, and even then just if everybody is feeling it.Otherwise I don't really see the point.The speed gained is just not at all proportional to the increased effort required for me.

[Zero.6082]

@"Cyninja.2954" said:Well your situation is a prime example of what damage meters are good for and what meta builds are good for and well what not.

I think you disprove your own point and actually proving the point of why meta and dps tickers are bad.

Next is the mistakes you made. First off, there is never a reason to die to a boss no matter if healer or not. Every fractal boss and content can be cleared without a healer present. This is also true for Chaos. The correct approach here for you would have been:

This is true, i have completed many bosses with out healers, but again the meta builds rely on team play... Mechanics can be great but as many have pointed out the equipment isn't a major factor is the composition. Daredevil brings..... idk Mesmer Chrono provides according to meta:QuicknessAlacrityMightFurySwiftnessVigorAegis

Is this all the time? Perfect like the golem does?

So what team did you use? What skills did they use? Was everyone perfect meta? There were no deviations at all. Which is proven not true by your later comment.

So again on paper,your right you can clear with out a healer.... but its not paper its in field. What team do you have, what experience do you have? What chemistry? How many screw ups did it take for you to get it right?

• make sure you are dodging the 3rd strike of the boss to not get hit by the Daze from his Spinning Cut (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Brazen_Gladiator)

I want video proof of zero mistakes made with rotations perfect no mess ups plus dodges of your example, with a random team of pugs......I have never seen a perfect DPS on anyone in a pug group.

• take stability (I prefer Stand your Ground but Hallowed Ground works too) for situations in which you or others are hit by the Spinning Cut, especially around sub 60% boss life for the first breakbar as to make sure people can use skills

Funny story the person who whispered me that my dps was bad, told me to remove "stand your ground", because it was wasting a skill slot... so yeah i listened to the "expert" in this case. However, the true point to be made here is you clearly deviate from the meta build and lower your DPS to take different skills such as stand your ground and retreat. That technically by itself defeats your on paper argument. So that adds the question which is more important DPS? Meta? Game mechanics, or not dying?

• initiate the fight on Scepter/Focus for the Focus 5 3x block both as protection and better initial damage uptime

If you read the skill if your 3rd block goes off you loose the dps crash . "Create a shield to block the next three attacks. If the shield is not destroyed, it explodes and damages nearby foes." So again is DPS more important or the blocks? Meta its maximum damage you can't if you take the 3 hits. Do make sure that your shield works every time explodes for max damage? I want to see that proof.

• take Retreat if the group needs additional aegisSame as stand your ground that person told me not to use it and same argument about deviation above.

You need to know how aggressive you can go and how well you can perform with and without a healer supporting you. The healer in fractals has become a clutch for bad players to make up for their mistakes. It is certainly not needed and as a guardian you should not immediately die at any boss. You have your base aegis up, 3 blocks from Focus 5, F3 and Lithany of Wrath for emergencies. If you do not react to all these defenses melting away and your emergency 6 second immunity full heal, you are not paying attention to the fight.

But if i am paying attention to the fight and dodging those few seconds i am not doing dps? What are you talking about? If the team doesn't support your glass canon explosive antics your abilities all fall apart. Can you show me a run with a Perfect Firebrand with any random team composition? Like if i gave you 3 reaper necros and a bow ranger would your meta still work? You know how many times i have failed fractals with perfect meta teams and then i switch to my druid and we succeed..... yeah screw me for providing the healer....god why complete the content? We should just fail and get good right? Also healers are in meta depending on your website.... Discretez and metabattle. So again this goes against dps but we succeed... so what is more important perfect meta and stats/dps or a team that can win the content? I like winning but i mean it is a game.... so to each their own i guess....

Not going to sugar coat it, your team setup was kitten. You made some mistakes and if you work on improving your class understanding you'll be able to deal with such bad teams better in the future (if you decide to not immediately leave that is).

Again explain a bad team? If i have to change to match my team, then clearly its not meta? On paper your right on field practice its impossible. Also what does this imply"(if you decide to not immediately leave that is)" Would you like me to quit? Because i didn't perform the way you wanted me to? Your no better then the elite groups that are toxic if that is the case, to which makes the thread owner even more correct. I don't understand you run in claiming meta! then completely defeat your own purpose.... What is the point of DPS tickers and Meta? I understand maximizing efficiency. If it is used a bludgeon to weed out the people you don't like instead of a tool to help people grow.... then your going to end up a sad and alone. I mean the "get good" argument applies, but what is the fun of a game if players ridicule you for not being perfect in an imperfect environment? But hey i mean you seem like a capable person you should probably solo everything.... that way you have the least possibility of imperfections and incorrect meta.... I am sure team games are way more fun alone.

[yusayu.3629]

DPS meters are good for the game and should either stay or be replaced by ANets own group dps meter.

If you're not pulling your weight (this also includes stuff like mechanics, for which I recommand the mechanics addon for ArcDPS), you deserve to be kicked. That's got nothing to do with toxicity. If you take 2 hours break every day and chill on reddit the rest of the day at work you'd be fired as well.

[mindcircus.1506]

@"IchigoHatake.5098" said:Take a look at this:

1. All this picture tells me is that you are probably playing with the wrong group
2. Humblebragging is so 2010

[Zero.6082]

@yusayu.3629 said:DPS meters are good for the game and should either stay or be replaced by ANets own group dps meter.

If you're not pulling your weight (this also includes stuff like mechanics, for which I recommand the mechanics addon for ArcDPS), you deserve to be kicked. That's got nothing to do with toxicity. If you take 2 hours break every day and chill on reddit the rest of the day at work you'd be fired as well.

I didn't realize my video game for fun was a job.... Can you give me my paycheck? You know what else a job does.... provides you with the tools to complete the task.... So are you going to buy everyone a perfect meta character? I don't think the comparison is warranted

[Zero.6082]

Also totally out of the blue but how is a DPS meter on other players not an invasion of privacy? Also kicking people from any content because they don't do what you want them to do. Why would anyone have fun playing a game like that or with a group like that? I guess that is what everyone loves in MMOs not the freedom, but people dictating how you play by websites...... I mean i want people to realize you can buy almost everything in this game.... people sell Raid runs.... gold is one gem credit card payment away..... why are we all taking this as serious as a world cup? I have done a few raids, but this is why i don't play raids, because people tell me what to do... Guys if you want to see the story then google the cut scenes... if you want you can do more productive things like farming materials sell them and buy raid wing completions... i mean just saying if you want a solution to the problem don't do the content.... If they can't find people to join them because they kick them all.... well at that point they have to reform or die out.... For the record all are welcome in WVW, dungeons, events, story, pvp and most fractals.... Enjoy the game man don't listen to the DPS tracking pricks. Take it from me i have only done tier 3 and below fractals 4 raids and i have a legendary weapon and 6 sets of ascended armor you do what ever you want.... One of my buddies has never raided and got all of his legendary armor through WVW.... so my advice do what makes you happy... if it is a job, then do your job... if it was a competition.... compete right... if its a video game for fun.... uh have fun? The DPS people are just mad because they are good at something and they realize that its not worth anything in real life so they are trying to lash out and conform people to find some meaning in their life. "I am pro let me just use my power over you to kick you get out of my space" That worked so well in every game i ever played.

[Vinceman.4572]

@"Zero.6082" said:The DPS people are just mad because they are good at something and they realize that its not worth anything in real life so they are trying to lash out and conform people to find some meaning in their life. "I am pro let me just use my power over you to kick you get out of my space" That worked so well in every game i ever played.

I played in both groups, strict meta and chill runs and there's just a different attitude that distinguish them. It has nothing to do with toxicity in the first place. People like to surround themselves with like-minded people. So, there is nothing wrong for a chill group to play whatever they want but it's also not wrong or toxic if a meta group wants to play a strict meta. Both sites have to respect each other and everything would be fine. In most cases this is working in quite a lot of video games. It always doesn't when people are disrespecting the requirements of others.

An additional thing regarding fractals is people are playing them since years. Trust me, you are not in the mood to struggle in fractals you have run multiple times which means hundred or more. You want to play through with some efficiency, maybe not perfection like speed run guilds but if you ask for "T4 dailies" + xyz (for pots, food or whatever) you expect people to be familiar with the content. That doesn't mean one single T4 fractal, it means all 3 of them without exception. It has nothing to do with people not being helpful or not wanting to help others it's just the situation that they want to get it done. Practicing, carrying others through, having hurdles with players without enough agony resistance and wiping due to other things than unfortunate situations do not belong to this tag.It is honorable if you stay in such a group although they - the others - do not meet the requirements that were made beforehand but you can't expect from above mentioned veterans that they'll spend their time for that. Especially not if they helped so many people over the years and yeah, a lot of them did that and still do. I'll do it myself almost every week a day.

You can bypass almost every toxicity in the game if you make your point clear. Although there are sometimes people joining your chill run group they either leave fast or your group has the power to get rid of those. You could even set up the tag "no dps meter" and it would work. You will most likely succeed when it comes to fractals. For raids it is harder. Obviously, if every experienced raider with a dps meter would turn it off they'll still beat those encounters, maybe not all the first 1-3 tries. But try to get random pugs together and start to work your way through you will definitely struggle hard because raids are content for people that want to reach the extreme, that want to go the extra mile to success and actually want to face a challenging encounter and therefore you need the right tools, here specific builds & gear. If your whole team can't manage that the first thing what happens is that some random guy is tank at Vale Guardian and runs around like a chicken being afraid of getting killed.Raids were designed to be beaten by organized groups not for random groups. Although it is possible there are a lot of possibilities to fail because you'll never know if all of the 10 players are really prepared for the challenge. On exactly this point a dps meter can help a lot and has helped a lot in the past. Not only because "bad performing" players were kicked in the first place but players now have the ability to troubleshoot and look for the problems. This is just fair and needed. Players want to have fun in a video game and raiders have fun in beating challenging content. If 1 or more out of 10 is ruining that for the others it' a no-go.

I have ArcDPS installed almost since it was allowed to use. I'm not a dedicated dps player and I refuse to learn rotations longer than 10-15 minutes at the golem but I play power dh very often and achieve reasonable dps. I haven't been kicked out from a raid squad or fractal group due to my dps till today (but have been kicked messing up a druid skill once and when toxicity arose over different stuff and tried to bring valid arguments into the discussion).So, players that join with a dps class and cannot put it in execution are really doing something terribly wrong. It's not hard to deliver only "decent" dps. They must calculate with the possibility of getting booted. Sorry for them but they are literally ruining other people's game experience.

[ArchonWing.9480]

Combat performance is NOT private. It's quite observable to anyone in your instance. Now, posting stats in public is tactless, not because you're posting dps number, but because you're posting saying "these guys suck".

If you're pulling dps stats to belittle someone, then yes, you are toxic. If you're using it to kick people for not doing their job, that's another issue.

If you realize people do play a game to have fun and relax, then you will realize that they aren't going to want to carry people or if they're not good enough, fail completely. I mean yes, it's easy to talk trash on the forum and I bet most type better than they can play. It's probably why they can't even find a static due to their crappy personality. But in the end, what's the use in moral vindication? If you play better, you will find more parties that will provide better runs. If you just complain about being kicked, nobody will want to play with you, and it's your loss. If you really want to show delusional elitists up, find people that match your playing style and get stuff done while the rest can talk about how awesome they are but spend 30 minutes trying to look for that perfect party and finding nobody because they have no friends.

That's winning. Or we can just keep writing walls of text that don't matter. That's sometimes fun.

[James.1032]

@Zero.6082 said:Also totally out of the blue but how is a DPS meter on other players not an invasion of privacy?Why is this attitude so prevalent among the GW2 community? You're working with the rest of your group to defeat a boss. There's nothing private about playing with a team and wanting everyone to do as much damage as they can to finish a fight. Obviously low damage is going to be called out because it makes it harder for everyone else.

If you want your DPS to be private then you should campaign for solo raid content, but then you'd probably complain that it's too hard because no one else is there to pick up the slack. Yes posting DPS can be abused and made toxic, but that's more an issue of playing alongside bad personalities than playing with DPS meters.

[IchigoHatake.5098]

@mindcircus.1506 said:

1. All this picture tells me is that you are probably playing with the wrong group
2. Humblebragging is so 2010

How would you know you are playing with the wrong group without a dps tool? All you would know is that the boss is dead and nothing else without it. I used the screenshot as an example to show why we need the tool.

[mindcircus.1506]

@IchigoHatake.5098 said:

@"mindcircus.1506" said:

1. All this picture tells me is that you are probably playing with the wrong group
2. Humblebragging is so 2010

How would you know you are playing with the wrong group without a dps tool? All you would know is that the boss is dead and nothing else without it. I used the screenshot as an example to show why we need the tool.

No.... you posted the screenshot as a big "look how everyone else sucks compared to me".We know nothing about the circumstances of your group there. I expect many training raids would have numbers very much like this with three support doing negligible damage, a couple of people carrying the DPS and the rest with poor scores as they mess around learning the mechanics.

Regardless of my personal ambivalence to DPS meters, Anet's green-lit them. I find many of the arguments against them to be every bit as toxic as some of the arguments for them.

I recognize the value of DPS meters to a significant portion of this game's player base.Your screencap however offers nothing of value to anyone but you.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Zero.6082 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Well your situation is a prime example of what damage meters are good for and what meta builds are good for and well what not.

I think you disprove your own point and actually proving the point of why meta and dps tickers are bad.

Next is the mistakes you made. First off, there is never a reason to die to a boss no matter if healer or not. Every fractal boss and content can be cleared without a healer present. This is also true for Chaos. The correct approach here for you would have been:

This is true, i have completed many bosses with out healers, but again the meta builds rely on team play... Mechanics can be great but as many have pointed out the equipment isn't a major factor is the composition. Daredevil brings..... idk Mesmer Chrono provides according to meta:QuicknessAlacrityMightFurySwiftnessVigorAegis

Is this all the time? Perfect like the golem does?

So what team did you use? What skills did they use? Was everyone perfect meta? There were no deviations at all. Which is proven not true by your later comment.

So again on paper,your right you can clear with out a healer.... but its not paper its in field. What team do you have, what experience do you have? What chemistry? How many screw ups did it take for you to get it right?

I'm not only right on paper. I've cleared fractals ever since vanilla. Healers are not needed. What is needed is people with enough understanding to addapt their builds if need be and being smart enough to realize when their group setup combined with their skill level does not allow them to run the meta build the same way a perfect group setup would. You did not.

You ran a meta build in a not meta setup (which can be pulled off depending on player skill), with inexperiened players and then were surpirsed when you (and your group) underperformed.

@Zero.6082 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

• make sure you are dodging the 3rd strike of the boss to not get hit by the Daze from his Spinning Cut (
  https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Brazen_Gladiator
  )

I want video proof of zero mistakes made with rotations perfect no mess ups plus dodges of your example, with a random team of pugs......I have never seen a perfect DPS on anyone in a pug group.

I never said that it is possible to always run a meta rotation in ever circumstance. I explicitly went out of my way to tell you what you could have done to both:A. adapt to your group (instead of going in with a class you half understand)B. made life easier for your group (instead of running down your meta build and then complaining that the team setup was bad)

As far as perfect DPS with random PUGs, you'd be surprised how well people at 300+ CM KP can perform.

@Zero.6082 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

• take stability (I prefer Stand your Ground but Hallowed Ground works too) for situations in which you or others are hit by the Spinning Cut, especially around sub 60% boss life for the first breakbar as to make sure people can use skills

Funny story the person who whispered me that my dps was bad, told me to remove "stand your ground", because it was wasting a skill slot... so yeah i listened to the "expert" in this case. However, the true point to be made here is you clearly deviate from the meta build and lower your DPS to take different skills such as stand your ground and retreat. That technically by itself defeats your on paper argument. So that adds the question which is more important DPS? Meta? Game mechanics, or not dying?

Yes, a good player should deviate from the meta build when:A. not in a group built correctly to make use of meta buildsB. he noticed that group members are struggling and he can helpC. if he knows he has a hard time without deviating from the meta build

I don't really care what someone tells you if it's bad advice. Stand your Ground is certainly not needed, but it would have made life easier on the group and you. Given the skill level for players was not good enough to not use Stand your Ground.

@Zero.6082 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

• initiate the fight on Scepter/Focus for the Focus 5 3x block both as protection and better initial damage uptime

If you read the skill if your 3rd block goes off you loose the dps crash . "Create a shield to block the next three attacks.

If the shield is not destroyed

, it explodes and damages nearby foes." So again is DPS more important or the blocks? Meta its maximum damage you can't if you take the 3 hits. Do make sure that your shield works every time explodes for max damage? I want to see that proof.

Listen, if you died immediately, you were far off from worrying about meta or top tier performance. Focus 5 does both: it protects your baseline aegis so that your uptime on Unscathed Contender (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unscathed_Contender) is better which is most important right when you start the fight since the DH rotation is very burst heavy. It also explodes if not triggered. The first benefit FAR outweighs the second (both in survivability and dps).

@Zero.6082 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

• take Retreat if the group needs additional aegisSame as stand your ground that person told me not to use it and same argument about deviation above.

Sure, people give bad advice all the time. Retreat is certainly not needed (I don't use it at all currently) but just like SYG and Wall of Reflection for example, it can help a struggling group.

@Zero.6082 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:You need to know how aggressive you can go and how well you can perform with and without a healer supporting you. The healer in fractals has become a clutch for bad players to make up for their mistakes. It is certainly not needed and as a guardian you should not immediately die at any boss. You have your base aegis up, 3 blocks from Focus 5, F3 and Lithany of Wrath for emergencies. If you do not react to all these defenses melting away and your emergency 6 second immunity full heal, you are not paying attention to the fight.

But if i am paying attention to the fight and dodging those few seconds i am not doing dps? What are you talking about? If the team doesn't support your glass canon explosive antics your abilities all fall apart. Can you show me a run with a Perfect Firebrand with any random team composition? Like if i gave you 3 reaper necros and a bow ranger would your meta still work? You know how many times i have failed fractals with perfect meta teams and then i switch to my druid and we succeed..... yeah screw me for providing the healer....god why complete the content? We should just fail and get good right? Also healers are in meta depending on your website.... Discretez and metabattle. So again this goes against dps but we succeed... so what is more important perfect meta and stats/dps or a team that can win the content? I like winning but i mean it is a game.... so to each their own i guess....

We are literally talking normal T4 fractals. You were struggling on normal T4 fractals. If you have to worry about surviving in normal T4 fractals (not even CMs) you are so far off from being able to pull off meta builds and meta team compositions, you don't need to worry about your damage uptime. Especially if you are dying in the process.

@Zero.6082 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Not going to sugar coat it, your team setup was kitten. You made some mistakes and if you work on improving your class understanding you'll be able to deal with such bad teams better in the future (if you decide to not immediately leave that is).

Again explain a bad team? If i have to change to match my team, then clearly its not meta? On paper your right on field practice its impossible. Also what does this imply

Actually, you could have switched to quickbrand and made your team a lot closer to being meta. You didn't and remained DH. Given the other classes present, your inability to play the correct guardian spec was just as much an issue.

As to bad team: your team lacked even the most basic boons, most notably as mentioned quickness and fury (both of which a quickbrand would have provided).

@Zero.6082 said:"(if you decide to not immediately leave that is)" Would you like me to quit? Because i didn't perform the way you wanted me to? Your no better then the elite groups that are toxic if that is the case, to which makes the thread owner even more correct. I don't understand you run in claiming meta! then completely defeat your own purpose.... What is the point of DPS tickers and Meta? I understand maximizing efficiency. If it is used a bludgeon to weed out the people you don't like instead of a tool to help people grow.... then your going to end up a sad and alone. I mean the "get good" argument applies, but what is the fun of a game if players ridicule you for not being perfect in an imperfect environment? But hey i mean you seem like a capable person you should probably solo everything.... that way you have the least possibility of imperfections and incorrect meta.... I am sure team games are way more fun alone.

All you have demonstrated is you basically copyied a meta build, learned the rotation but not the class. Something people complaining about meta build users constantly bring up.

I didn't run in claiming meta. I specifically stated how your exmaple is that of someone who playes a build on a class he does not understand. I gave you suggestions as to how you can improve your gameplay and how you could have adapted to this group, even with the group being weak setup wise and likely gameplay wise.

[Cyninja.2954]

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@IchigoHatake.5098 said:

@mindcircus.1506 said:

1. All this picture tells me is that you are probably playing with the wrong group
2. Humblebragging is so 2010

How would you know you are playing with the wrong group without a dps tool? All you would know is that the boss is dead and nothing else without it. I used the screenshot as an example to show why we need the tool.

No.... you posted the screenshot as a big "look how everyone else sucks compared to me".We know nothing about the circumstances of your group there. I expect many training raids would have numbers very much like this with three support doing negligible damage, a couple of people carrying the DPS and the rest with poor scores as they mess around learning the mechanics.

Regardless of my personal ambivalence to DPS meters, Anet's green-lit them. I find many of the arguments against them to be every bit as toxic as some of the arguments for them.

I recognize the value of DPS meters to a significant portion of this game's player base.Your screencap however offers nothing of value to anyone but you.

Technically not true. His screen cap shows that he was performing in the 99th percentile and even above (cudos, I usually only hit 25-26k on Mirage unless I really try hard).

This in turn tells us that his boon uptime must have been pretty much perfect and given that the next 3 dps were alls in his subgroup (with the Quickbrand and Alacrigrade likely being semi experienced as well) it's quite clear group 1 was meant to carry. Maybe having stability from Quickbrand which group 2 might have had if the chrono had replaced his Well of Recall for stability mantra (WoR not needed with Alacrigrade).

The screenshot also tells us that the Druid was also in group 1 (with quickbrand and alacrigrade) while the tempest was likely heal in group 2. Meaning this team went out of their way to bring 2 healers, 1 chrono and Firebrigade likely prefering the Tempest heals over Firebrand or Renegade heals for this fight.

Given all this, it is likely that the setup was:

• group 1 with experienced raiders (except for the Daredevil, who if not careful can reflect with his staff 1. Or his low damage was due to him being overcareful)
• group 2 with inexperienced raiders due to training maybe

That's just off the front page. This dps log would be very useful if people spent time to look at the mechanics tab to see who was having issues with which mechanics.

The point is: all this information is useful for a squad. Not having access to this information (and the information provided by the more interesting other pages of the dps report) leaves raiders at a severe disadvantage in both imporving their performance, finding mistakes and getting better or even just keeping their performance consistent.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Zero.6082 said:Also totally out of the blue but how is a DPS meter on other players not an invasion of privacy?

That's something those that have no clue what privacy is would say.

[IchigoHatake.5098]

@"mindcircus.1506" said:No.... you posted the screenshot as a big "look how everyone else sucks compared to me".

The whole point of me using that screenshot was to show that dps meter allows you to see who is not contributing. This was to support the argument that dps meter should be allowed. If you took at the time stamp at the bottom, it was very recent, so I was able to find it quickly to illustrate my point. I would need to spend more time to look for another log. I did not intend to show off dps, there is nothing to show off, many players play better than me. I realize now that the log makes it look like I'm just bragging about my damage.

i don't know if that raid was a training run, it was not advertised as such. I don't know what the circumstances were, but it certainly seemed like an exp run, the boon up times were quite good. Some of these players were support, so their dps is going to be low. However, there are a few dps players who were not contributing (doing less than average damage for the class and dying to mechanics). This is why it's important to have a dps meter.