Jugglemonkey.8741

Is there an easy to read priority list somewhere? And thanks all for the discussion! I've learned quite a bit so far. Stability ripping is a really good point and something I would have to play around. I'm not very good with stealth (usually play evasion heavy), so hasn't considered just going Shadow Arts instead for... basically all of this. It looks really attractive at this point though. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bountiful_Theft without BT u cant steal on someone with aegis either fyiThat's a good point as well. Honestly I've run bountiful theft for that long I forget what it's like not having it sometimes, so while I plan to try trickster for the CD reduction post patch I may not stick with it either.

Wait til you see Warrior traits then, now that is actual survivability. Thief traits look a lot more impressive for survivability than they really are, thats why Thieves are such easy kill targets if they refuse to run away. @UNOwen.7132 said: Wait til you see Warrior traits then, now that is actual survivability. Thief traits look a lot more impressive for survivability than they really are, thats why Thieves are such easy kill targets if they refuse to run away. True thief tactics, diverting attention from issue at hand. Thief get shafted. I love all these people here even ppl here saying they hit like wet noodles when in reality they can unleash 17k+ crits from stealth oneshots. Thing is, thief is hardly alone in being able to do that. Ranger, guardian, mesmer, warrior, rev can all spike comparatively well (some don't have the stealth, fair enough), and after the patch the malicious backstab playstyle will probably be completely irrelevant in WvW as I doubt it will do enough to one shot. Tbh, if you're struggling with thief one shots, just slap on some durability runes, or earth runes if it's a deadeye shooting you. Nine times out of ten that will be enough to neuter the burst and give you a chance to respond. Welll tbh im just going for a more tankier build now, i don't enjoy walking and out of the blue im lying on the ground and never even see who killed me. So a more tankier build is suitable for me. That's fair. If its any consolation, I have to do the same; I got hit for a 17-18k true shot from a dh sat in a zerg the other day, nearly killed me on the spot. You can ratelt hit 12k+ with it...Well, tell that to the combat log haha. Like I said, he was sat in a zerg so admittedly it might have been an ideal, stars aligned sort of scenario. But he hit for that then for 16k ish shortly afterwards, only reason I lived was auto proc evade and having 20k health.

That's a good point as well. It depends on the boon priority lists for all the skills you plan on using, last I looked at it it wasn't really consistent which boons got stolen first when comparing sources of boonrip sadly.

Wait til you see Warrior traits then, now that is actual survivability. Thief traits look a lot more impressive for survivability than they really are, thats why Thieves are such easy kill targets if they refuse to run away. @UNOwen.7132 said: Wait til you see Warrior traits then, now that is actual survivability. Thief traits look a lot more impressive for survivability than they really are, thats why Thieves are such easy kill targets if they refuse to run away. True thief tactics, diverting attention from issue at hand. Thief get shafted. I love all these people here even ppl here saying they hit like wet noodles when in reality they can unleash 17k+ crits from stealth oneshots. Thing is, thief is hardly alone in being able to do that. Ranger, guardian, mesmer, warrior, rev can all spike comparatively well (some don't have the stealth, fair enough), and after the patch the malicious backstab playstyle will probably be completely irrelevant in WvW as I doubt it will do enough to one shot. Tbh, if you're struggling with thief one shots, just slap on some durability runes, or earth runes if it's a deadeye shooting you. Nine times out of ten that will be enough to neuter the burst and give you a chance to respond. Welll tbh im just going for a more tankier build now, i don't enjoy walking and out of the blue im lying on the ground and never even see who killed me. So a more tankier build is suitable for me.That's fair. If its any consolation, I have to do the same; I got hit for a 17-18k true shot from a dh sat in a zerg the other day, nearly killed me on the spot.

Yeah, I was thinking of doing something similar OP. Yeah, it's not new, but in the past bountiful theft has had greater value. Depending on how boons are nerfed on other classes, I can see the two traits being equally valuable after the patch if you're using any combination of rending shade, absorption sigil or larcenous strike.

Wait til you see Warrior traits then, now that is actual survivability. Thief traits look a lot more impressive for survivability than they really are, thats why Thieves are such easy kill targets if they refuse to run away. @UNOwen.7132 said: Wait til you see Warrior traits then, now that is actual survivability. Thief traits look a lot more impressive for survivability than they really are, thats why Thieves are such easy kill targets if they refuse to run away. True thief tactics, diverting attention from issue at hand. Thief get shafted. I love all these people here even ppl here saying they hit like wet noodles when in reality they can unleash 17k+ crits from stealth oneshots.Thing is, thief is hardly alone in being able to do that. Ranger, guardian, mesmer, warrior, rev can all spike comparatively well (some don't have the stealth, fair enough), and after the patch the malicious backstab playstyle will probably be completely irrelevant in WvW as I doubt it will do enough to one shot. Tbh, if you're struggling with thief one shots, just slap on some durability runes, or earth runes if it's a deadeye shooting you. Nine times out of ten that will be enough to neuter the burst and give you a chance to respond.

I pretty much haven't used them since build templates were introduced, having cleansing or an energy sigil is just a better option if you're swapping between specs regularly.

Tbh I wouldn't bother trying to appease people here OP. The smoke screen nerf is reasonable, it's a very strong skill so going from 20s to 28s traited CD is a good move imo, but most of the people who dislike steal would only be happy if it was removed outright. It's a pointless argument.

Tbh it depends how many characters you have, I main thief so all my resources are funnelled to that one char, and my alts are pretty disposable at this point. This patch will hit the type of player that has 9+ chars all in meta gear hard no matter what you do, but that was always going to be the case.

And that would be ok. But then be adults like a business and say so. ?? This, pretty much

Based on the road map from a dev I saw on another site recently (was ont of the mmo websites, memory fails past that), it doesn't seem like it's coming this year. Edit: found it.https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/97028/a-message-from-andrew-gray

Tbh anyone that plays WvW semi regularly probably has enough tickets for the WvW rings. Adding the third infusion with the mystic forge is pretty simple after that.

Same haha. That's the buildcrafter in you tho, there's no point working on a build that might not exist in a few day's time. I like Trickery and SA with DE and DrD in WvW at least, probably sucks anywhere else, and I also build to float around to cover people in different type of fights. After awhile you get your timing down on everything and are comfortable using fewer sources of stealth which opens up some choices, but that's right now. I already have to put some thought into those stats and modifier thresholds to have the hitting power and be able to bounce when I need to but I also have to pack for control and sapping in this mode, and I probably will post patch as well as health is just filling when mitigation is ripped or they're probably not hitting me very hard either. I can see people packing their kit with more burst and multi use Initiative/burst; break stun; etc utility instead though for a more reliable pace and I'm not sure after those changes if I'd stick with traits like Merciful Ambush, Burst of Agility, or Premeditation if those don't scale or shape into the changes somehow and I might even have to think about Shadows Rejuv if Rending Shade isn't still the opportunity maker but we'll have to get our hands on that patch to feel all that out. I'm sure at launch some predictions will be off and some spot on and people will dig into new mechanics and figure new stuff out but there might be a few stealth missiles out there for a minute although they'd have to stay engaged to keep their kill rate up if their not likely to quick burst or oneshot either. I get rocked by some core thieves of various kits now and probably still will after but those builds might get more funneled. Building for ini regen and boonrip with SA trick DE was already good, it'd be kinda funny if it ended up meta after people constantly having a go at it.

I use to play D/P Daredevil: with my 3114 Power, PI hits for 600-1950 based on enemy toughness (something that is pretty fair). Reduce the power coefficient by 266% will completly kill this trait: interrupt an enemy means spend initiative or use Swipe and require skills and timing.. I can't really understand this change. Also kill Acrobatis trait line seems something that has really no sense. How thief will be supposed to face multiple enemies? Only with stealth? Based on these changes, best build will be Trickery+Shadow Arts + Deadeye.. Now 1 malicous Backstab can hit 13k without Assassin's Signet, with 33% damage reduction it still will be a good way to kill enemies. And a Permastealth DE will be quite impossible to be killed, with all these damage reductions + (Flickering Shadows). So sad.. I like to play something that requires skills, if you make a mistake, you should pay for it.. we are going in the opposite direction. Yeah, I hear you. The main reason I say this is that if healing is hit significantly, even a small amount of damage on an interrupt would be good as it's chip damage. I do agree it's probably better reworking the trait altogether than going ahead with the proposed change. As for a trickery, shadow arts and deadeye spec, I already play this for a boonsteal focused S/D rifle playstyle in WvW. It doesn't hit huge numbers in comparison to some current specs but reliably removing protection often makes up for that, so it would be an odd choice for D/P but it would work. I agree it's a safer spec than others, but honestly I don't consider instagibbing an opponent particularly skilled either, so I guess we'll see what happens on that one.

We can't really know what meta we will go into. Even if condi meta becomes a thing, thief is relatively okay at condi cleanses. It's actually way better than non-inspiration mesmers (cleanse mantra is nerfed in this patch) and non-mallyx revenants. After Shake It Off nerfs warriors will have a harder time dealing with condis as well, healing signet nerf doesn't help either. In a way, even currently meta holosmith build is worse at dealing with conditions because they don't have much evades except vigor, which is nerfed. Also, we should not forget that thief counters necromancer and mesmer, which are the primary condi classes (even though condi mirage is hit greatly and chrono is nearly unplayable, they have yet to kill core). ps: if condi becomes a thing, thieves can go daredevil and take "that" trait. because thief always changes depending on meta. @Tayga.3192 said: We can't really know what meta we will go into. Even if condi meta becomes a thing, thief is relatively okay at condi cleanses. It's actually way better than non-inspiration mesmers (cleanse mantra is nerfed in this patch) and non-mallyx revenants. After Shake It Off nerfs warriors will have a harder time dealing with condis as well, healing signet nerf doesn't help either. In a way, even currently meta holosmith build is worse at dealing with conditions because they don't have much evades except vigor, which is nerfed. Also, we should not forget that thief counters necromancer and mesmer, which are the primary condi classes (even though condi mirage is hit greatly and chrono is nearly unplayable, they have yet to kill core). ps: if condi becomes a thing, thieves can go daredevil and take "that" trait. because thief always changes depending on meta. I mean not for sure, but Power damage took huge hits accross the board, while Condi didnt seem to take any hits? They even nerfed condi cleanses. A condi meta is inevitable. And nah, Thief is pretty bad at it, you got 2 utility skills for it (one of which is your often only Stunbreak), and outside of that is pretty limited. Thief used to counter them due to its ability to spike (well and in case of Mesmer because of Ecto). But if the condi build is a lot stronger than any other build (say, early scourge), then it eats thieves for breakfast. "That" trait (why are we doing this) is pretty bad against condi burst, as you can only clear one and still die anyway. I can stalemate most condi classes on my condi DE at the moment, I'm only using shadowstep, hide in shadows (both traited) and a cleansing sigil on rifle for main cleanses. If you're careful to use stealth and smoke screen to avoid getting hit unnecessarily, while using death's retreat on rifle and roll for ini to keep mobility impairing conditions and vuln/weakness from wasting your main cleanses, that's usually enough. The main ones that get me are the rare core condi necro that knows when to land transfers, and condi druids that also invest in healing, most other things are fine. That said a lot is changing, I know I'm gonna have to rebuild everything from scratch after the patc and I'm looking forward to it haha

The patch is more or less what I expected tbh. Our sustain is largely active so that wasn't going to get changed much, so we were gonna get hit on base damage and might access across the board. Just remember that these are only 1/9th of the changes across all the classes; if they do what they say and make other classes' healing more dependant on their damage output, not just straight up full heals like we have now, the damage we do will be lower but its also more likely to stick. Remember these changes aren't happening in a vacuum, basically. That said, the increases to ini and the cooldowns on instant reflexes hurt, they'd probably be better off reworking the trait entirely since an auto proc evade was always hard to balance and a bit cheese frankly. PI also, they'd be better off reworking that trait entirely now as others have said. Again though, that's looking at damage numbers as they stand today; PI might be fine in the new meta.

...have you just woke up after almost a year? <.< lol, I was just going to ask the same thing. That might have been a very comfortable rock.Everybody panic, bears have found the internet!

^ This forum never fails to disappoint xD

It has an evade, but you're not going anywhere until it's done or you cancel it and take the resource loss, and it's not getting spammed, staggered if someone knows what they're doing but that's not cheap. I don't know if people are still getting wrecked in spvp with it but it's hardly a factor in wvw anymore if it ever was, you're just asking for everything to be dropped at your feet while you're telegraphed. My use of Whirlwind as an example was a very rough example just to personally give a thought example of how it would feel if warriors could use it back to back. The reality is that they cannot do this but if they could that no doubt they would use it over and over again just as how a lot of thief builds work. I dont think whirlwind attack does too many things at once i just think the damage is too high like most things on warrior its probably due to the insane high might generation. Honestly I'm kinda fine with warrior doing what it does. Just like you should be worried if there's a good thief in stealth, or a good mage freecasting, a good warrior should be a real threat in melee and a hard target to kill imo. I generally think a person's playstyle is a much bigger contribution to how cheesy something feels than the class, I'd much rather fight someone who's persistently attacking, kiting and just being an active presence in the fight than someone that whiffs a wombo combo then just disengages entirely until they can try again.

There's a condi build better than this one? Do tell! no its too toxicHonestly, what isn't these days?

Every time I see threads like this I remember why I stopped playing engi. It's barely the same class that it was in vanilla, and it's frustrating since it had so many cool things going for it at the time.

I think it's a good thing for this relic to go on reminding people. Wish I could find the post claiming WvW would be "Priority one after HoT is stable."Living story team has given the rest of the game a bait-and-switch for a long time now. ANet can't really be surprised when the community doesn't react well to their PR events when promises like this are commonplace. On the plus side though, ANet and their empty promises are still a league above the rubbish Bethesda have pulled recently. Not saying it's as good as it could be or that we want it to be, just that it could also be significantly worse.

Imo, DE is the only real badly designed class that has not enough counter play when it comes to roaming and support specs in general. But honestly.. league of legends is just as bad. Honestly if they just changed malicious backstab to do something else (like, anything other than a straight damage increase like it is now), the class would be fine. There's a number of roaming specs that can hard counter the usual DE builds, the funny thing about DE is that it actually has a lot more build diversity than most people think. So while a bunker boonbeast would hard counter a one shot DE, it would struggle vs a boonrip focussed DE. If anything, build templates have exacerbated the problem. That said, there's very little that DE (thief in general really) can do in WvW, roaming is its job and it's good at it. I'm more worried about the thief portal if I'm honest. The functionality is fun but it promotes the sort of play that just gets up everybody's nose, and frankly it was kinda unnecessary. If backstab didn't do a big chunk as it does now especially in the state the games in right now it would literally be one of the weakest and useless builds in the game. I don't know, I don't bother trying to land it these days what with mounts and the sea of AoE's floating about so it's a bit of an afterthought to me already. I'm also specifically talking about malicious backstab since we're discussing DE, not regular backstab, just to be clear. Oh in that case my apologies good sir.I havent played DE much so I'll leave the discussion to u guys lolNot a problem haha. I'm all for backstab doing high damage, I think the tipping point for DE is where you can get 17k hits as an engage with virtually no tell, which no matter how you look at it is a bit much for an opener considering you still have marauder gear and shadow arts in that build. I'm kinda looking forward to having a bunch of stuff toned down across the board, even if that means I have to redo all my builds.

Imo, DE is the only real badly designed class that has not enough counter play when it comes to roaming and support specs in general. But honestly.. league of legends is just as bad. Honestly if they just changed malicious backstab to do something else (like, anything other than a straight damage increase like it is now), the class would be fine. There's a number of roaming specs that can hard counter the usual DE builds, the funny thing about DE is that it actually has a lot more build diversity than most people think. So while a bunker boonbeast would hard counter a one shot DE, it would struggle vs a boonrip focussed DE. If anything, build templates have exacerbated the problem. That said, there's very little that DE (thief in general really) can do in WvW, roaming is its job and it's good at it. I'm more worried about the thief portal if I'm honest. The functionality is fun but it promotes the sort of play that just gets up everybody's nose, and frankly it was kinda unnecessary. If backstab didn't do a big chunk as it does now especially in the state the games in right now it would literally be one of the weakest and useless builds in the game.I don't know, I don't bother trying to land it these days what with mounts and the sea of AoE's floating about so it's a bit of an afterthought to me already. I'm also specifically talking about malicious backstab since we're discussing DE, not regular backstab, just to be clear.

Imo, DE is the only real badly designed class that has not enough counter play when it comes to roaming and support specs in general. But honestly.. league of legends is just as bad. Honestly if they just changed malicious backstab to do something else (like, anything other than a straight damage increase like it is now), the class would be fine. There's a number of roaming specs that can hard counter the usual DE builds, the funny thing about DE is that it actually has a lot more build diversity than most people think. So while a bunker boonbeast would hard counter a one shot DE, it would struggle vs a boonrip focussed DE. If anything, build templates have exacerbated the problem. That said, there's very little that DE (thief in general really) can do in WvW, roaming is its job and it's good at it. I'm more worried about the thief portal if I'm honest. The functionality is fun but it promotes the sort of play that just gets up everybody's nose, and frankly it was kinda unnecessary.