RabbitUp.8294

Only F4 is truly unique for chrono, and the same is true for virtuoso. F1-F3 is the same thing with some minor secondary effects (F1 strikes twice, F2 refunds cooldown, F3 slows).

Sword 3 will most likely get a rework, or at least work differently with this spec. It will probably become a targeted shadowstep. Hyped for this spec as well as pistol necro. My only gripe is that my mesmer is asura and daggers are all but invisible when wielded by them. Sidenote, Marjory's dagger has special projectiles (green snakes), so now mesmer can cosplay necro.

Sword 2, 4 and 5 are your main damaging skills (besides the auto), and they are hardly slow. Unless you are hellbent on spamming 3, I'm not sure why you feel sword/sword is slow or low damage, as neither of those are true.

How were you hitting moving targets with 3 before the update? All arrows converged at one tiny spot, at best you could hit like 1-2 of them if the target moved. The only thing I don't like about the new version is that it used to be one extra AoE skill for tagging if you had the piercing trait, but it's not like Renegade lacks AoE. Skill 2 remains the problem with shortbow. It's boring, clunky, and superfluous with the other skills shortbow has. I would love to see it removed completely and replaced with skill 3, then a new skill 3 that's more utility oriented (an immob or mobility skill, like a backroll).

If it works the same as Rune of the Sanctuary, then it doesn't work with healing over time boons/buffs*, but works with everything else. *This specifically means effects that are applied to your character and provide healing over time, not stuff like Well of Blood.

I've played Trailblazer/Dire condi in core (which means no power, crit or ferocity), and it was fine. Burning immune mobs still die to Mallyx's torment. Structures are annoying, but the hp values are so low in core.

Which tells anybody absolutely nothing of its content...And "weird stupid idea" does?

Sword 4 my dude. Also sword 2 is not a dps loss even with multiple targets, if you use it at the start or between aa chains.We are talking levelling here anyway, everything dies in 2 hits.

At least rev sword is supposed to be misty and stuff. The worst offender is DD staff, it's like you are whacking them with a twig. Though rev staff is not that much better.

having a low cd cleanse that is usable anytime is partly what makes ventari usable as a bunker/ support. say they put the stun break on the cleanse. if you use it for the stun break then you're susceptible to condi burst, and if you use it for the cleanse then your stun break is on cd. this clunkiness would hurt it in competitive modes, especially wvw. its the same thing for vs ranged but ranged is less common then condi and the animations are generally more obvious. You have no stun break now, so how does that hurt you? You are already susceptible to cc. You'd just gain an extra option.

Kinda ironic that you shoot down the balance argument as laughable, then repeat the "new blood" argument in the next sentence. If there's a laughable argument here is that a new class will draw any attention to the game.

Rev is a combination of Dervish and Ritualist, they commune with figures of the past from the Mist, like Rits, but instead of summoning them as spirits, they channel them like Dervs. And Renegade is pretty much a proper ritualist, they use static spirits for healing, support, damage, disruption.

As for Engi, having to go through kits means nothing, kits have no cd or cast time themselves, if the CC skill is up, they can access it at any time. Let's agree to disagree on that. Band aid solutions only prove the existence of the problem. If every elite spec going forward is going to require a new band aid or be forced into Charged Mists, I would rather the problem was addressed directly. The scope of an energy rework wouldn't be bigger than the phantasm rework. Also, you contradict yourself when you say that legend cooldown wouldn't need to be 10s but then point out the problems that reducing it below 10s would create. It would stay at 10s for the reasons and traits you mentioned, but because it's a gameplay issue. Swapping legends should have the same opportunity cost as swapping weapons. Even though weapon skills have their own cooldown, there's still a 10s cooldown, to create downtime for the player and a window of opportunity for their opponent. Yes, herald would need work, specifically because it was designed as an energy bandaid. Adding energy costs to consumes is not done colossal work, though. I don't understand what you are saying here. Has any dev ever said that it was fully their intention to make duplicate legends? I'm not talking about builds being copy paste, I'm talking about the legends themselves, like needing a second healing legend when Ventari exists. As I said, this is a problem created by the forced legend swap. If you want to play a healer Rev, you will be forced to swap at some point and stay in that other legend for 10 seconds. If that other legend doesn't offer any healing, then your build stops working for those 10 seconds. This is what I'm talking about copypaste legends; because we are forced to swap, they made a second healing legend in Kalla, to fill that downtime. At the same time, Kalla was also the second condi legend to couple with Mallyx. What I'm saying is that the original design of rev was to make 4 legends, each with distinct roles. But the energy mechanic makes it so you need 2 legends for each role. You are basically saying "it's fine, because it exists". It's the design, but it's a bad design. Phantasms were the design of mesmer, old herald was the design of that spec. Yet reworks happen all the same.

Rev is performing because it has Herald, which circumvents the whole energy mechanic. You are wilfully ignorant if you can't see that Herald is carrying the class atm. Herald is certainly not “carrying the class” in PvE. Renegade is straight up better there for Condi, Power, and Heal/Support. So your blanket statement that Rev is “performing well (in all modes) because of Herald” is wrong just on that basis alone. In PvP/WvW Herald performs better in many situations for three main reasons: 1) Infuse Light is the best heal Rev has. Period. Followed closely by Breakrazor/Soulcleave. 2) Draconic Echo and Easy Access to Boons. Herald has high access to consistent boons that other Rev specs struggle to maintain for large, consistent periods of time. Echo is especially potent in WvW where it provides tons of boons for 10 people easily. If Echo didn’t exist you’d see more Revs running Mallyx/Jalis in WvW for more specific support instead of Glint. 3) Literally all of Glint’s skills are useful and strong in their own right. Yes, the lower energy usage factors into their usability, so you’re partially correct about that, but even then their active effects are all some of the most powerful in Rev’s entire kit. Infuse Light has already been mentioned, but look at things like Mallyx FoN, Gaze of Darkness, etc. and even if these skills had energy costs they’d still be incredibly potent regardless. Lastly, Renegade currently performs well in PvP. Like “wins a Monthly At” level of well. And that’s a Rev spec that clearly isn’t being “carried by Herald” nor is having issues with the energy system thanks to how strong Charged Mists can be. PvE is another matter entirely because you just design a rotation around energy costs and nothing will interfere with it 99% of the time. Oh, and of course, can't forget Charged Mists if you are playing Kalla. And even under these condition, what do we end up with? because you use all your energy 5 seconds into your legend swap. Even with Charged Mists. You know those breakbars people need to work together to break? Not you, if you use your CC, you are now 30 energy down and have ruined your whole rotation. Interesting that you didn't link the condi rev build since it's considerably more complicated and goes directly against your argument. Also you can use CC skills in Rev if you omit low DPS parts of your rotation. For example, using Darkrazor instead of Icerazor + 10 energy. Super easy if you plan for it in advance and it doesn't ruin your whole rotation or lower your damage by much at all. Also Rev comes with built in CCs in their kit, unlike some other classes which sometimes have to drop utilities or weapons to "get more CC." This isn't the case for Rev in most scenarios. Other classes also lose damage by taking the time to CC, just as Rev does. Rev also has the added bonus of being able to start certain encounters and phases with 100 energy for higher initial dps burst, unlike other classes. Everyone has to take time to CC, it's not like Rev's CC are instant cast. But while other classes only lose the cast time, Rev also loses a heap of energy. And yes, if you plan in advance, you can minimise the losses, but that is not possible for every encounter, and it entirely depends on how energy you have left at the time and what legend you are on at the time. There are only a couple of builds that can't sacrifice a single utility or elite slot for CC. And the supports are usually expected to take the breakbars to minimise dps loss from the damage dealers, but even as a support Renegade, you are just as energy constricted, so there's a good chance you won't be able to contribute, or drop alacrity uptime to do so. Yes, you can forego Charged Mists when you pick the bigger band aid called Herald. As I said, both exist for the same reason, to fix the holes of the energy mechanic. [Citation Needed] The class was designed around dedicated legends. They looked at the core roles a build could provide and turned them into legends. Shiro for power dps, Mallyx for condi dps, Ventari for heals, Jalis for tankiness and utility and Glint for boon support. So, it's the exact opposite, the legends were designed to be as distinct as possible. Then you have the huge wrench called energy dropped in that design. You are forced to swap, because energy regen and costs are designed around that 50 reset. Suddenly, instead of dedicated builds, you have supports being forced to swap to damage legends and vice-versa. This is what forces the copypaste legends, the fact that you are forced to swap. If energy was designed in a way that you could stay on a legend as long as needed, we wouldn't have this issue. And it doesn't take a huge overhaul, just removing the energy costs from weapon skills and removing the energy reset on swap. It's not like Rev's weapon skills are any stronger or have lower cooldowns than other professions' skills, so the added cost is arbitrary. I'm not saying Renegade doesn't offer anything useful, I'm saying it doesn't offer anything unique. Literally all the things you mentioned, except ranged condi access (and even then mace had a 1200 skill) existed in core rev, between Mallyx and Ventari. The reason Kalla was needed was because you had to swap to something, and when you did, there was nothing that complemented either of those legends.

Are you power or condi? If you are power, Icerazor's Ire does huge damage, and even more if you combine it with the Dance of Death trait. But keep in mind the damage is not AoE, it will hit 1 target per strike, so the damage is split among several targets when used against a group.For condi, none of them do damage on their own, but Razorclaw's Rage will make your other attacks do bleeding, so you have to combine it with other skills and spirits.

Shiro can procc DoD aswell and it does way more damage than jalis.Shiro, Kalla, Glint are dps legends for power and Mallyx, Kalla for condi.Ventari and jalis are utility. None of the legends are pure dps but some are pure support and this is a major design flaw. Only 1skill is a dps skill on shiro. 1 on mallyx etc. All legends try to be jack of all trades. This becomes super annoying in fractals since legends are taken for just 1 specific skill most of the time. Everything can proc DoD, but hammers can proc multiple stacks nearly instantly, especially against multiple enemies, which is great for burst following sword 4. Basically, for base rev, what I do is start in Shiro, use Jade Winds, swap to Jallis and use hammers and sword 4. It's insane burst damage. You could start in kalla, drop ice and darkrazor. swap to shiro and start with 75 energy, use citadel + sw4 +sw2. Leagues higher burst. Well obviously as a renegade, you are not going to pick Shiro+Jalis. I'm talking base rev here. Still, for burst situations, proccing all the stacks of Battle Scars is better damage than Impossible Odds.

Then the legend loses all flavour and is just a discount druid? Our stun breaks have 30-40 energy cost. Going from 25 to 30/35 will not kill anything.In any case, they already have tech that differentiates when a skill breaks a stun or not, so they could just a +10 energy cost penalty when you use it to break stuns, like how Elusive Mind was penalised with Exhaustion.

Shiro can procc DoD aswell and it does way more damage than jalis.Shiro, Kalla, Glint are dps legends for power and Mallyx, Kalla for condi.Ventari and jalis are utility. None of the legends are pure dps but some are pure support and this is a major design flaw. Only 1skill is a dps skill on shiro. 1 on mallyx etc. All legends try to be jack of all trades. This becomes super annoying in fractals since legends are taken for just 1 specific skill most of the time. Everything can proc DoD, but hammers can proc multiple stacks nearly instantly, especially against multiple enemies, which is great for burst following sword 4. Basically, for base rev, what I do is start in Shiro, use Jade Winds, swap to Jallis and use hammers and sword 4. It's insane burst damage.

Rev is performing because it has Herald, which circumvents the whole energy mechanic. You are wilfully ignorant if you can't see that Herald is carrying the class atm. Untrue. Core Rev has been performing pretty well due to Ancient Echo and Renegade has always been consistent with Charged Mists. I would still like Energy costs looked at though. Yes, like I said, Ancient Echo was one of the crutches, as it operated outside of the energy mechanic. And if you can't see the problem with Charged Mists being nearly mandatory, I don't know what to say. Rev is performing because it has Herald, which circumvents the whole energy mechanic. You are wilfully ignorant if you can't see that Herald is carrying the class atm. Herald is certainly not “carrying the class” in PvE. Renegade is straight up better there for Condi, Power, and Heal/Support. So your blanket statement that Rev is “performing well (in all modes) because of Herald” is wrong just on that basis alone. In PvP/WvW Herald performs better in many situations for three main reasons: 1) Infuse Light is the best heal Rev has. Period. Followed closely by Breakrazor/Soulcleave. 2) Draconic Echo and Easy Access to Boons. Herald has high access to consistent boons that other Rev specs struggle to maintain for large, consistent periods of time. Echo is especially potent in WvW where it provides tons of boons for 10 people easily. If Echo didn’t exist you’d see more Revs running Mallyx/Jalis in WvW for more specific support instead of Glint. 3) Literally all of Glint’s skills are useful and strong in their own right. Yes, the lower energy usage factors into their usability, so you’re partially correct about that, but even then their active effects are all some of the most powerful in Rev’s entire kit. Infuse Light has already been mentioned, but look at things like Mallyx FoN, Gaze of Darkness, etc. and even if these skills had energy costs they’d still be incredibly potent regardless. Lastly, Renegade currently performs well in PvP. Like “wins a Monthly At” level of well. And that’s a Rev spec that clearly isn’t being “carried by Herald” nor is having issues with the energy system thanks to how strong Charged Mists can be. PvE is another matter entirely because you just design a rotation around energy costs and nothing will interfere with it 99% of the time. Oh, and of course, can't forget Charged Mists if you are playing Kalla. And even under these condition, what do we end up with? because you use all your energy 5 seconds into your legend swap. Even with Charged Mists. You know those breakbars people need to work together to break? Not you, if you use your CC, you are now 30 energy down and have ruined your whole rotation. And that's without even addressing the other problems I mentioned, that the forced legend swap leads to copypaste legends. What did Kalla actually give the class? Literally nothing, she is condi to match Mallyx and heal+alacrity to match Ventari. And now we need another power legend to match Shiro. So yes, the energy mechanic "works". Just like mesmer's phantasms "worked". Yet mesmer was reworked because it lead to an extremely unfun playstyle where once you had your 3 phantasms up, you couldn't use your shatters and stood there spamming autos. Well, it's the same with revenant, you are limited to 3-4 skills, you are spamming autos because your energy evaporates in seconds, and using anything outside the rotation is a major dps loss. Or you are already too low on energy in which case you don't even get a choice. Sure, the other classes have a rotation of a few select skills, but they can actually use the rest of their bars when needed. After Empty Vessel, Herald and Charged Mists, can't wait to see what new band aid the third expansion will bring, so we can all continue to pretend that energy is fine.

Rev is performing because it has Herald, which circumvents the whole energy mechanic. You are wilfully ignorant if you can't see that Herald is carrying the class atm.

Yeah, I'm quickly finding this out. I just assumed you could build some healing power to have more sustain which will offset how much damage you do. In PvP, it seems it's more ideal to either build straight damage, tanky, or support - seems like it's designed with really no in-between. This just sucks for Rev because healing power is gated behind using Ventari and Salvation. Since Rev heals mainly through utility abilities and not weapon abilities, you need to use Ventari and Salvation is the only trait line that benefits healing. Sucks because I picked up Rev because I was theorycrafting some unique playstyles but I'm quickly learning it's very rigid in it's design philosophies :( This post was eye opening because it really shows that even though there seems to be so much horizontal progression for each profession with gear stats, weapons, sigils, runes, traits, etc., it's really a smokescreen because the ideal way to play, especially in PvP, is to build for the Berserker (sometimes Marauder in WvW), Carrion (Trailblazer's in WvW), or Mender (Minstrel in WvW). There's really no other reason to have any other gear for PvP. Really sucks IMO. Salvation is not the only option. Devastation and Retribution offer self-sustain through Battle Scars and upkeep use, and there are multiple ways to get damage reduction in Retribution, Corruption and Herald. And of course Jalis. You are focusing too hard on healing, that's only one layer of defense and usually the weakest, because it has the least interaction with your opponent. You have blocks, evades, blinds, weakness, protection, resistance, etc. Lack of choices is something that's mainly affecting PvP, and that's because every balance patch has been removing amulets, runes and sigils.

Healing Power is not meant to be a selfish stat, you build it to heal others. The reason why selfish heals have low coefficient is both because they are balanced around their base values, so those don't traits don't feel useless when you don't invest in healing power neither unkillable builds when you, and also because when you make a healer, they don't want you to both heal allies and be extra tanky yourself.

Among the core legends, Shiro and Jalis for power dps (honestly with the addition of Battle Scars/Dance of Death, Jalis is better for burst due to how often the hammers can proc). For condi dps, it's Mallyx. Basically, only Ventari is bad for damage, anything else you can make it work.

The problem is energy, namely like another post said, that you are pressing one button that costs 40 energy and now all your skills are disabled. Even in pve, where you have full control of your rotation and rarely need to use a skill in a pinch that would mess it up, rev still has to stand there spamming autos because they are out of energy 5 seconds into swapping into a Legend. And that's with using the +25 energy GM. Empty Vessel was a band aid, a way to ignore addressing the actual problem. When every legend has a stun break (and Ventari should get one), why is it that the class needs a 10s energy-free stun break? Well the answer is obvious, because you are usually too energy starved to use your actual stun break skills. Remove the energy costs from weapon skills, and remove the energy reset on swap and go from there. Balance the energy costs among the right-hand bar skills only. Energy is another reason why legends like Ventari are problematic. Forcing the legend swap to recover energy means that unless you have 2 legends that facilitate the same playstyle, then your build only works 50% of the time. So our specs, instead of introducing new opportunities to the class, are forced to retrace the core specs to give them a partner, like what happened with Kalla and Ventari/Mallyx. Rev was carried by two things that hid the real problem: Empty Vessel and Herald. EV removed stun breaks from the energy mechanic and Herald skills being resourceless removed the problem altogether. Now we lost access to the former, but the latter remains.

TP and, I assume PvP, are on separate servers, which is why they were not affected by the initial accidental rollback. The TP being out of sync with the rest of the server would have to be fixed regardless of what people were doing and I really doubt this was done manually, so logging in wouldn't have increased the workload. Finally, you are making a jump from logging in to playing, farming and getting drops. The people who were hesitant to log in were those that were aware of the situation and knew that a potential reversal of the rollback was imminent, so they would not have started playing like nothing happened. And even if they did, you are still making another logical jump here, these are the people who we are assuming they were such good Samaritans that they didn't log in fear of making Anet's life harder, so why would they now be sending tickets to support? If you are altruistic enough to not log in, surely you are altruistic enough to accept your precious drop was lost and move on.