Domain of Istan - Mass AFK Farm - Rising Issue

[Cyprien.4208]

5 minutes ago, Rogue.8235 said:

It seems contradictory that you view AFK farming as rewarding but not node gathering.  If crafting materials aren't worth getting, then how could AFK farming be rewarding?

I don't view AFK farming as rewarding other then you require little effort to get profit. I never said crafting materials wasn't worth it to have you need them if you want legendries or ascended. It's how you go about getting them and currently you may as well active farm for the gold to buy the matts you require then  to farm the nodes for things such as copper and ect...

[Rogue.8235]

1 minute ago, Cyprien.4208 said:

I don't view AFK farming as rewarding other then you require little effort to get profit. I never said crafting materials wasn't worth it to have you need them if you want legendries or ascended. It's how you go about getting them and currently you may as well active farm for the gold to buy the matts you require then  to farm the nodes for things such as copper and ect...

Ah, the time preference.  AFK farming still isn't a concern, even in this context, as it has little economic impact, if any, and the energy cost outweighs what in-game benefits you obtain.  Rather than AFK farming, you would gain more if you spent the money to buy gems and convert to gold than afk farm.  

As for the nodes, I understand this now.  I was just pointing out that node gathering is actually a higher return than afk farming.  But sometimes it does feel like getting that one node all the way over there isn't worth it under the current circumstance.

[Cyprien.4208]

2 minutes ago, Rogue.8235 said:

Rather than AFK farming, you would gain more if you spent the money to buy gems and convert to gold than afk farm.  

That's slightly wrong as AFK farming doesn't cost anything (other than power/energy) where someone buying gems to covert to gold at least cost real world money. If all your wanting a quick method for in-game gold sure this method is one of the top official methods to do this. I highly don't think it's worth it as the return is awful as you can farm that amount of gold within a week or two. 

[Rogue.8235]

8 minutes ago, Cyprien.4208 said:

hat's slightly wrong as AFK farming doesn't cost anything (other than power/energy)

That right there requires money.  It is also not cheap.  The exception is if you live off grid.

That is why I stated it is better and more marginally beneficial to just buy the gems outright.

[Cyprien.4208]

I keep my computer running 24/7 doesn't effect me and 100% sure afker don't care the slight increases in power cost. 

[Rogue.8235]

13 minutes ago, Cyprien.4208 said:

I keep my computer running 24/7 doesn't effect me and 100% sure afker don't care the slight increases in power cost. 

Please excuse me while I go cry about the outrageous pricing of DC area energy.

[Obtena.7952]

If AFK farming is so detrimental and such a problem to fix, why haven't we seen the economy collapse yet? I mean, it's not like these farms only arrived yesterday. The fact these guys are still farming means there is value in the activity, so don't try to tell me the economy is already there. 

Edited August 29, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Quench.7091]

The biggest problem with AFKers is that they take up a player slot on the map, so there's less of a chance you'll bump into another active player if there's enough of them. An example of something that might need culling is the AFK dragon stance revenant farm in Verdant Brink. That map needs as many active players in one map as it can, but it's a heavy AFKer map.

 

I'm kind of happy that Istan is an AFKer map, since Eternal Ice can be used to get Kralkatite Ore. I hate being in Istan. Still, need to cull the bad actors once in awhile. Bad actors as in the macro botters.

[shrew.3059]

2 hours ago, Rogue.8235 said:

My personal take is that it really doesn't matter.  It's high risk for such a trivial gain.  It's my opinion that the people who do this lack the cognitive ability to identify why AFK farming is just not worth it.

 

I don’t actually disagree with any of your points, and the current state of farming is probably more annoying than it is a widespread economic risk. That said, if the behaviour was normalised, it could be more detrimental, so it’s worth discouraging it. Obviously this involves an opportunity cost to the developers, so it may not be worth them addressing it.

[shrew.3059]

4 hours ago, Rogue.8235 said:

The peskiness, unsightliness,, etc. of AFK farming is definitely debatable.  You'll probably gain more traction staying clear of the economic impact and staying within the bounds of personal dislike and aesthetic impact.  

 

I’m tempted to agree; my offline time is rewarded such that in-game farming could almost never be equally profitable, so I don’t really have an economic horse in this race.

 

Moreover, it could clearly be a case of applying enough enforcement to dissuade normalisation but that’s it, since the cure could do more harm than the illness.

[Parthenos Polias.5683]

7 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

 the exact same as full asc, which you can get in a day of playing at max level if you know what you are doing.

Wanna know the trick !

[InsaneQR.7412]

My only issue with such BS is that those players occupy the map without contributing to events or other meaningful content. Some map areas should honestly get flagged for no idling. Similar to the no flight or the no mount zones.

 

Like get you to character select instantly after not moving for 1m or something like that without any further prompts.

 

That would remove AFK farming and could be adjusted and narrowed down by the devs dpending on report data they.

 

Small anecdote:

About a month ago i saw roughly 10 ppl AFK farming in Kourna. Even with ranger Pet names like "Report Me" or guild tags like "AFK forever".

 

So the AFK farming is definetly a problem that should be adressed in some way.

 

[BlueJin.4127]

10 hours ago, Rogue.8235 said:

It's my opinion that the people who do this lack the cognitive ability to identify why AFK farming is just not worth it.

 

Uh-huh...

You living in an area with high electricity bill is obviously irrelevant since the vast majority of players don't live where you live. It's also quite obvious that many players don't pay for electricity, so it's not a concern for them.

I'd imagine that teenagers who get allowance from parents can't afford to buy gold with gems, so for them, coming home from school to a bunch of AFK farmed karma and VM is totally worth it. Even for players who can afford gems, I'm sure they know better than you why AFK farming is worth it for them.

And let's not forget that Istan farming gets players karma and VM, both of which cannot be bought with gems. For players who need account bound stuff purchased with karma/VM, I'm sure they have the cognitive ability to identify why AFK farming is so worth it for them.

 

Edited August 29, 2021 by BlueJin.4127

[Obtena.7952]

8 hours ago, Quench.7091 said:

The biggest problem with AFKers is that they take up a player slot on the map, so there's less of a chance you'll bump into another active player if there's enough of them. An example of something that might need culling is the AFK dragon stance revenant farm in Verdant Brink. That map needs as many active players in one map as it can, but it's a heavy AFKer map.

 

I'm kind of happy that Istan is an AFKer map, since Eternal Ice can be used to get Kralkatite Ore. I hate being in Istan. Still, need to cull the bad actors once in awhile. Bad actors as in the macro botters.

That doesn't make sense. A map can contain way more players than it has positions for farming players to locate themselves. There is actually a condition where too many farmers in a single location means some of them simply never get aggro to tag the mobs they farm or the mobs die so fast when someone is agg'ed that they never tag either. 

 

Put it this way, if this is the biggest problem, then it's not a problem at all, since we have mega servers, numerous map instances, etc ... Also, no content needs a 'map-worthy' of people to complete, even meta events, including the map that is DESIGNED to just be a meta map; Dragonstand. It's inevitable that some people in a full map aren't participating in the meta content, so again, if some of those people are farming, it's not a problem. 

Edited August 29, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Quench.7091]

36 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That doesn't make sense. A map can contain way more players than it has positions for farming players to locate themselves. There is actually a condition where too many farmers in a single location means some of them simply never get aggro to tag the mobs they farm or the mobs die so fast when someone is agg'ed that they never tag either. 

 

Put it this way, if this is the biggest problem, then it's not a problem at all, since we have mega servers, numerous map instances, etc ... Also, no content needs a 'map-worthy' of people to complete, even meta events, including the map that is DESIGNED to just be a meta map; Dragonstand. It's inevitable that some people in a full map aren't participating in the meta content, so again, if some of those people are farming, it's not a problem. 

Earlier today I saw a Verdant Brink with 30 or so AFK revs. Say you want to start a squad, but you zone into an instance with that hot mess. Would you even want to bother? If you managed to get something fun going, you got 30 people doing nothing on your map.

[Telgum.6071]

You must have a very rich life.

[ClanWars.5746]

 Generally speaking

Might not be the case here but usually there are 3 groups in an argument about bots. First group is the majority of the population, who don't care about bots and ignore such discussions; second group are the people who speak against bots; and the third group who defend bots. 

 Not all but most of the people who are in the third group ie the ones who defend bots are those who use it. They may deny it when call out but they'll vehemently defend botting even when they don't need to. But some of the people in third group will defect to group 1, cause they have no need to be in a lengthy discussion that will just waste time.

 People who defend bots saying it doesn't hurt the economy or it reduced mats cost and helping other players or it doesn't give disadvantage to other players, you forgot there are players who are legally and actively farming the mats manually suffer when prices drop.

 Another common defence is "get a job". They think everyone is in the same situation as themselves. Every person have their own lives which may differ greatly from yours own even by just base on which country they are from.

[Obtena.7952]

27 minutes ago, Quench.7091 said:

Earlier today I saw a Verdant Brink with 30 or so AFK revs. Say you want to start a squad, but you zone into an instance with that hot mess. Would you even want to bother? If you managed to get something fun going, you got 30 people doing nothing on your map.

You seem to be under the misconception that you need the people in your map to get something going, or that 30ish AFK farmers would prevent that with the people in the map that aren't farming. It doesn't. 

 

Again, the map limit is much higher than the number of people that are farming in the map, so this shouldn't prevent you from doing things with people in it. 

 

I mean, you ask why you would bother? Sounds to me like you are fishing for an excuse for Anet to solve an rather insignificant problem. You aren't prevented from doing things in a map because of 30sih AFK farmers no more than if those were 30ish not-AFK farmers in the map. In otherwords, what those 30ish people are doing has NOTHING to do with your ability to start a squad. 

Edited August 30, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Quench.7091]

5 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

You seem to be under the misconception that you need the people in your map to get something going, or that 30ish AFK farmers would prevent that with the people in the map that aren't farming. It doesn't. 

 

Again, the map limit is much higher than the number of people that are farming in the map, so this shouldn't prevent you from doing things with people in it. 

It doesn't, unless a cap gets reached and the event timer is ticking down, so you can't just pick up and leave. I wouldn't want to deal with that if I were to lead a squad. It's a good thing I already have the rewards from that map, so it's not really my problem anymore.

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Quench.7091 said:

It doesn't, unless a cap gets reached and the event timer is ticking down, so you can't just pick up and leave. I wouldn't want to deal with that if I were to lead a squad. It's a good thing I already have the rewards from that map, so it's not really my problem anymore.

Well, it's not really a problem for anyone ... because all maps have some number of people not participating in doing those activities to get those rewards. I mean, if maps capped at 30 people ... and 30 people were in a map, the game just spawns you another map, regardless of what those people are doing. This problem related to being filled with 'non-participating' players is already taken care of by smart instance spawning. 

Edited August 30, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Rogue.8235]

40 minutes ago, ClanWars.5746 said:

 Generally speaking

Might not be the case here but usually there are 3 groups in an argument about bots. First group is the majority of the population, who don't care about bots and ignore such discussions; second group are the people who speak against bots; and the third group who defend bots. 

 Not all but most of the people who are in the third group ie the ones who defend bots are those who use it. They may deny it when call out but they'll vehemently defend botting even when they don't need to. But some of the people in third group will defect to group 1, cause they have no need to be in a lengthy discussion that will just waste time.

 People who defend bots saying it doesn't hurt the economy or it reduced mats cost and helping other players or it doesn't give disadvantage to other players, you forgot there are players who are legally and actively farming the mats manually suffer when prices drop.

 Another common defence is "get a job". They think everyone is in the same situation as themselves. Every person have their own lives which may differ greatly from yours own even by just base on which country they are from.

 

Not sure who is defending bots.  As far as I can tell this is about AFK farming, not bots.  In addition, saying that there is little to no economic impact of afk farming is not defending afk farming.  You mistakenly attribute the entire issue, as complex and nuanced as it is, into a singular problem of economic impact.  That is not the issue of afk farming, it is far more nuanced than this.

Again, stating that there is very little, if any at all, economic impact is not defending AFK farming.  It's steering the issue back to relevancy and away from irrelevant topics.

Who is saying get a job?  

Finally, someone identifying logical flaws doesn't mean they use bots or afk farm.  These things just don't go together.  Are you suggesting that defense attornies commit the crimes their clients did?  And so?  It's the equivilant because the argument is about the facts of the presented ideas.  

These are some wildly irrational claims.

[Rogue.8235]

2 hours ago, BlueJin.4127 said:

Uh-huh...

You living in an area with high electricity bill is obviously irrelevant since the vast majority of players don't live where you live. It's also quite obvious that many players don't pay for electricity, so it's not a concern for them.

I'd imagine that teenagers who get allowance from parents can't afford to buy gold with gems, so for them, coming home from school to a bunch of AFK farmed karma and VM is totally worth it. Even for players who can afford gems, I'm sure they know better than you why AFK farming is worth it for them.

And let's not forget that Istan farming gets players karma and VM, both of which cannot be bought with gems. For players who need account bound stuff purchased with karma/VM, I'm sure they have the cognitive ability to identify why AFK farming is so worth it for them.

 

 

The point of the electrical bill is to show that it is not worth it to do so.  People who do not have fiscal responsibilities are obviously exceptions to cost-benefit analysis.  

Regardless we'll go back to in-game only benefits.  This does not impact the economy to the point of any perceivable damage.  Honestly, there is zero noticable difference (economically).

If you really think it is so rewarding to do so then go ahead and take the risk to do it yourself.  Also wanted to say that the image link you posted earlier is not evidence of anything.  It's a miniscule image of a number next to the volotile magic symbol.  It has no meaning as that could be anyone's VM amount in any context.  There is no information to back the claim it is being used to support.

 

Overall, there is a better argument that afk farming simply is not in the spirit of the game and should be chastened.  Yes it's a subjective argument but, but it is valid.  It does seem to go against the design of the game and the intent of the developers.  It does detract from the "Happy to see other players" and the cooperative nature of the game.  

These are opinions but this issue is really a subjective one.

There is absolutely no need to make false claims of economic impact.  That only weakens your position.

 

[BlueJin.4127]

Huh? What image link? I never posted any image link. Jaffa is the one who posted the image link. Also, I made no false claims about economic impact. In fact, I made no mention of any economic impact. Um… you were saying something about other players lacking cognitive abilities?

Edited August 30, 2021 by BlueJin.4127

[ClanWars.5746]

3 hours ago, Rogue.8235 said:

 

Not sure who is defending bots.  As far as I can tell this is about AFK farming, not bots.  In addition, saying that there is little to no economic impact of afk farming is not defending afk farming.  You mistakenly attribute the entire issue, as complex and nuanced as it is, into a singular problem of economic impact.  That is not the issue of afk farming, it is far more nuanced than this.

Again, stating that there is very little, if any at all, economic impact is not defending AFK farming.  It's steering the issue back to relevancy and away from irrelevant topics.

Who is saying get a job?  

Finally, someone identifying logical flaws doesn't mean they use bots or afk farm.  These things just don't go together.  Are you suggesting that defense attornies commit the crimes their clients did?  And so?  It's the equivilant because the argument is about the facts of the presented ideas.  

These are some wildly irrational claims.

   So since I mention just economic impact you think I'm as narrow minded to not see the other problems caused by bots/afk farming. 

 So what are you doing if not defending afk farming if you deny discussions on dealing with botting and afk farmers who are illegally obtaining game currencies, and rather just act as someone who dismissed others opinions. Just ignore the discussion like the group 1 I mentioned. 

 "Get a job" Is a common rebuttal by users of illegal method in obtaining game currencies. They may phrase the sentence in a different way, but the meaning is still the same.

  From experience from multiple mmos where I join bot/abusers group I know they will defend what they do in major discussions, forums etc. I too used to be in that group when I was in high school with no money and depended on illegally obtaining game currencies for no effort. Who in their right mind would say "I'm a cheater" when defending cheating in a discussion. Attorneys are legally required to defend their clients no matter if the evidence are heavily against them, how can you compare them to these keyboard warriors sitting in their ases at home.

 If you believe it's a wild irrational claim from someone with experience (even if not in gw2 where I play legally) then just ignore it. Do not be that person who just tries to discredit someone comments.

[Rogue.8235]

17 minutes ago, ClanWars.5746 said:

   So since I mention just economic impact you think I'm as narrow minded to not see the other problems caused by bots/afk farming. 

 So what are you doing if not defending afk farming if you deny discussions on dealing with botting and afk farmers who are illegally obtaining game currencies, and rather just act as someone who dismissed others opinions. Just ignore the discussion like the group 1 I mentioned. 

 "Get a job" Is a common rebuttal by users of illegal method in obtaining game currencies. They may phrase the sentence in a different way, but the meaning is still the same.

  From experience from multiple mmos where I join bot/abusers group I know they will defend what they do in major discussions, forums etc. I too used to be in that group when I was in high school with no money and depended on illegally obtaining game currencies for no effort. Who in their right mind would say "I'm a cheater" when defending cheating in a discussion. Attorneys are legally required to defend their clients no matter if the evidence are heavily against them, how can you compare them to these keyboard warriors sitting in their ases at home.

 If you believe it's a wild irrational claim from someone with experience (even if not in gw2 where I play legally) then just ignore it. Do not be that person who just tries to discredit someone comments.

I pointed out an incorrect claim that detracts from your arguements.

 

Afk farming is, in my opinion, a bad thing.  Botting is straight-up a violation of the EULA with harsh consequences.  Also, afk farming does not negatively impact the economy in any noticeable or meaningful way.

It is entirely possible for me to point out that something is incorrect, without dismissing the entire opinion, and without condoning afk farming or botting.

 

If you need me to put it in another way.

• P1: AFK farming does not effect the in-game economy in a significantly negative manner.
• P2: Afk farming is against the spirit and intent of the game.
• P3: botting is a violation of the EULA and is often conducted through illicit means.
• Therefore: Botting is bad and AFK farming, while not negatively impacting the in-game economy in any meaningful way, is bad.

I really do not know how to make this any clearer.  

 

I never dismissed anyone's opinions.  I only pointed out a factually incorrect premise. 

I am not defending afk farming or botting. I only pointed out a factually incorrect premise.

I am pointing out a factually incorrect premise.  This does not invalidate the subjective opinions people have nor does it condone the actions of afk farming and botting.

Again, how do I make this any clearer?

 

Edited August 30, 2021 by Rogue.8235
invalidate should not be past tense.....