Change Request Series: Berserk Mode

[Konrad Curze.5130]

What I don't understand is, why are we limiting this to only small numeric changes when the entire spec is soooo deeply flawed to the marrow? 

 

Anet has reworked specs like scourge and scrapper several times. Scrapper's last one not even 3 months ago, to make it far more useful and give it a whole alternate playstyle. And scrapper already was bounds and leaps in a better place all around than Berserker. 

 

They also reworked the mantra system entirely again not long ago for both mesmers and firebrand, again classes that are light-years ahead of Berserker in general. 

 

When something is truly broken and in dire need of a rework they roll up their sleeves and actually put some effort into it.  Dunno about you guys, but to me that sounds like the textbook definition of Berserker. 

 

 

I don't want Cal or anyone to do the bare minimum, I want them to actually fix the spec I paid them money for.

If they tweak some numbers here and there now, you can kiss the spec goodbye forever, that'll be the last we hear of it. We gotta pull their ears and make them do their frigging jobs, no excuses. 

Edited September 3, 2021 by Konrad Curze.5130

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 minutes ago, Konrad Curze.5130 said:

What I don't understand is, why are we limiting this to only numeric changes when the entire spec is soooo deeply flawed to the marrow? 

Because Cal can only do numeric changes, and doesn't like long request threads, so I'm doing a series of small threads.

2 minutes ago, Konrad Curze.5130 said:

Anet has reworked specs like scourge and scrapper several times. Scrapper's last one not even 3 months ago, to make it far more useful and give it a whole alternate playstyle. And scrapper already was bounds and leaps in a better place all around than Berserker. 

 

They also reworked the mantra system entirely again not long ago for both mesmers and firebrand, again classes that are light-years ahead of Berserker in general. 

 

When something is truly broken and in dire need of a rework they roll up their sleeves and actually put some effort into it.  Dunno about you guys, but to me that sounds like the textbook definition of Berserker. 

You're not wrong but in those same updates they stated that Berserker is well represented and has viable builds in all game modes...

2 minutes ago, Konrad Curze.5130 said:

 

I don't want Cal or anyone to do the bare minimum, I want them to actually fix the spec for I paid money for.

If they tweak some numbers here and there now, you can kiss the spec goodbye forever, that'll be the last we hear of it. We gotta pull their ears and make them do their frigging jobs, no excuses. 

Cal can only tweak numbers. It is other Devs that do the bigger things.

For Berserker though, reducing the Berserk mode downtime and the toughness penalty would go a long way in helping it.

[Konrad Curze.5130]

5 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Because Cal can only do numeric changes, and doesn't like long request threads, so I'm doing a series of small threads.

You're not wrong but in those same updates they stated that Berserker is well represented and has viable builds in all game modes...

Cal can only tweak numbers. It is other Devs that do the bigger things.

For Berserker though, reducing the Berserk mode downtime and the toughness penalty would go a long way in helping it.

I get what your saying, but the spec is currently broken and I'm not content with making it "less broken". I want it right. 

 

So don't take this personally but if I may, I want to express my displeasure with this thread and the ideas floating around, and let Cal et al know that NOOOOO, some of us are not fine with just some number juggling.

 

Rework the kitten spec already, for Christ's sake

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

58 minutes ago, Konrad Curze.5130 said:

I get what your saying, but the spec is currently broken and I'm not content with making it "less broken". I want it right. 

We all want that, but sometimes  you have to work with what and who you have.

58 minutes ago, Konrad Curze.5130 said:

 

So don't take this personally but if I may, I want to express my displeasure with this thread and the ideas floating around, and let Cal et al know that NOOOOO, some of us are not fine with just some number juggling.

I'm not taking it personally at all. You discontent is well placed. The Dev team does need to revisit Berserker and many other warrior weapons and traits. In the meantime Cal can certainly number juggle to get warrior and it's especs into a more workable place.

58 minutes ago, Konrad Curze.5130 said:

Rework the kitten spec already, for Christ's sake

Preach it.

[Infusion.7149]

1 hour ago, Konrad Curze.5130 said:

I get what your saying, but the spec is currently broken and I'm not content with making it "less broken". I want it right. 

 

So don't take this personally but if I may, I want to express my displeasure with this thread and the ideas floating around, and let Cal et al know that NOOOOO, some of us are not fine with just some number juggling.

 

Rework the kitten spec already, for Christ's sake

As long as Berserker is dominant in PVE which is the main skill balance consideration for this game, there won't be much incentive for changes since spellbreaker is playable in competitive modes even if it is no longer as strong as before.

I don't like the quickness while in Berserk mode idea from The Boz because it adds additional boon corrupt liability, I'd rather Berserk mode have a higher attack speed rate similar to Dual Wielding in Arms. Neither will be relevant in PVE when you have external quickness sources regardless.

Berserker vs power holo (which has prot or blind, and heat therapy) or power rangers of all types (which have prot on dodge) , power herald or renegade, or power reaper (2x the health) it is more likely the opponent wins. Against d/p thief with blind , weakness spam from staff daredevil, mirages, or any trap DH it's more or less a lost cause. Against burn weaver it is also a rough matchup.

[Vancho.8750]

Berserker just needs better sustain, maybe changes to the defensive  traits in the traitline, maybe damage reduction like necro when in berserk mode 30% tops and some way to condi cleanse, resolution and resistance  from the berserker traits or skills that are reliable and tada it is back in PVP somewhere close to Engi and Ranger little bit worse but at this point no one will care if you don't die when people look at you sideways.

[Deathevan.7016]

Hey, I've just read all your threads on this subject, and since I feel I'd be kind of necroing the others and potentially annoying you by posting short sentences in separate threads, I'll just do it all here; but don't worry, it will still be pretty short.

 

I only have one doubt: you've mentioned that they've stated the warrior's overall DpS is at an acceptable level, but you've made a few suggestions throughout your threads that would most likely increase it; I'm talking about the PVE changes only, as I wholly agree with you suggestions for PvP given several of warrior's skills and traits are nerfed for that mode. So, while I agree that your propositions would improve the class' gameplay (specially the the support/defensive ones), wouldn't it be hard for them, as opposed to your intention while writing these threads, to balance Warrior's DpS over your offensive suggestions in order to keep it at a standard Anet considers adequate?

 

Edited September 4, 2021 by Deathevan.7016

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

22 minutes ago, Deathevan.7016 said:

Hey, I've just read all your threads on this subject, and since I feel I'd be kind of necroing the others and potentially annoying you by posting short sentences in separate threads, I'll just do it all here; but don't worry, it will still be pretty short.

No worries.

Quote

I only have one doubt: you've mentioned that they've stated the warrior's overall DpS is at an acceptable level, but you've made a few suggestions throughout your threads that would most likely increase it; I'm talking about the PVE changes only, as I wholly agree with you suggestions for PvP given several of warrior's skills and traits are nerfed for that mode. So, while I agree that your propositions would improve the class' gameplay (specially the the support/defensive ones), wouldn't it be hard for them, as opposed to your intention while writing these threads, to balance Warrior's DpS over your offensive suggestions in order to keep it at a standard Anet considers adequate?

 

So, on paper the damage numbers look fine. The final damage floater will look A+ but  there are things holding warrior back from achieving those numbers. Like overly long cast times, overly short  quickness durations, overly short  bleed durations in the Condi DPS traitline, and in this case over penalizing Berserker when they try to do their shtick.

The suggestions thus far in these series are not made entirely in isolation, they are a set more or less. If Cal made these changes they would not result in an OP warrior, just one that is better able to do it's job, which is to get those on paper damage numbers  more realistically. 

Edited September 4, 2021 by Lan Deathrider.5910

[Ovark.2514]

Where was it said that Cal can only change numbers?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

9 hours ago, Ovark.2514 said:

Where was it said that Cal can only change numbers?

He is the balance team, that is all they can do. Anything else you see happens because of another team's input.

[Ovark.2514]

36 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

He is the balance team, that is all they can do. Anything else you see happens because of another team's input.

That seems like an incredible oversight. Many skills/traits cannot be fixed by simple number tweaking.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

23 minutes ago, Ovark.2514 said:

That seems like an incredible oversight. Many skills/traits cannot be fixed by simple number tweaking.

You don't say...

[Ovark.2514]

20 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

You don't say...

This just in: CMC releases new balance changes which increases the duration of Throw Bolus immobilize to 1 hour.

1 Week Later: Throw Bolus still shows 0% representation in competitive modes.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

48 minutes ago, Ovark.2514 said:

This just in: CMC releases new balance changes which increases the duration of Throw Bolus immobilize to 1 hour.

1 Week Later: Throw Bolus still shows 0% representation in competitive modes.

The duration on Throw Bolus isn't an issue. The projectile speed maybe. But if you don't bring cover condis then the duration has no bearing. That said if they did do that you would see it paired with something like a necro and the two together would keep someone locked down and the pair could just 1 spam the poor soul to death.

[alcopaul.2156]

playing Berserker on full Berserker armor with Superior Rune of the Berserker and Berserker weapons and trinkets...

 

how about that for the 4XHardcore?

Edited September 4, 2021 by alcopaul.2156

[Acyk.9671]

deleted

Edited April 3, 2022 by Acyk.9671

[Obtena.7952]

IMO, simplest fix is to allow Berserker mode duration to scale with amount of Adrenaline consumed while maintaining the reasonable Burst CD of the other specs. 

 

I can only guess at this point, since we have had our V2 implemented, Anet REALLY wants the berserker vs. non-berserker mode to be significantly different, so much so that we take a massive hit to performance when not in berserker mode while ensuring berserker mode itself is not OP. I think there is a way to ensure that differentiation exists WITHOUT the performance hit in non-berserker mode that simply makes non-berserker different, not weaker, than Berserker. 

 

I don't believe this will ever get fixed, as the spec likely works how they want it and there is likely a sufficient number of people playing it to meet their satisfaction despite the deficiencies it has. Really, I think the only fix it to hope people stop playing berserker or warrior all together so it appears on their radar again. Hopefully this time, it doesn't just get slapped with a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. 

Edited September 4, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Gorem.8104]

Its funny seeing threads like this, especially after Anet's "Berserker spec for Warriors is great at everything" 

[Vancho.8750]

18 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

IMO, simplest fix is to allow Berserker mode duration to scale with amount of Adrenaline consumed while maintaining the reasonable Burst CD of the other specs. 

 

I can only guess at this point, since we have had our V2 implemented, Anet REALLY wants the berserker vs. non-berserker mode to be significantly different, so much so that we take a massive hit to performance when not in berserker mode while ensuring berserker mode itself is not OP. I think there is a way to ensure that differentiation exists WITHOUT the performance hit in non-berserker mode that simply makes non-berserker different, not weaker, than Berserker. 

 

I don't believe this will ever get fixed, as the spec likely works how they want it and there is likely a sufficient number of people playing it to meet their satisfaction despite the deficiencies it has. Really, I think the only fix it to hope people stop playing berserker or warrior all together so it appears on their radar again. Hopefully this time, it doesn't just get slapped with a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. 

The issue here is that Berserker is one of the best PVE specks in the game, without being broken, it has simple rotation for power and has good output and fine enough condi one , it has the option of soft support by sacrificing its utilities with banners, which quite frankly terrible mechanic that breaks your flow without giving you anything exciting to look forward to when you drop them ,but by being just stat sticks are too powerful group utility to pass up and groups take warrior not because  warrior, but because banners , since without them it will be yet another DPS speck that can be easily exchanged.  There are some issues that should have been ironed out long ago, like being too dependent on the group support to excel by having quickness and alacrity to have good flow which makes it quite janky to play in open world PVE. People just don't have a reason to drop it from PVE it just works, and it will not receive any attention.
Their goal with berserker has been complete successful at the first rework as a Good structured PVE speck, but the constant nerfs to core to make way for SB and the changes made for the rework has made it really bad for all PVP be it SPVP or WvW. The statement that Berserker performs well in all modes is only true for instanced PVE and that has been their goal all along.

There is no hope for large skill reworks, but there is a little hope that CMC could buff up the stat stick class traits in numbers to have better interaction between traitlines, like my example with the Dead or Alive trait having more % increasing heal received in combination with Adrenal Health in defense and Eternal Champion giving 1300 toughness (1000 is around 33% strike damage reduction before DR 300 is so it doesn't have the penalty from the minor) instead of 300 , which would give it enough sustain to be melee brawler viable enough for PVP without touching anything that can make for example SB really strong.

Also the condition management on all Warrior specks needs an overhaul after all the nerfs and the whole Resistance rework, since all specks need some selfish condition management considering they are all about full melee contact and can't apply damage without suffering from multiple instances of some throw away condition skill. It doesn't matter if it is damaging or crowd control one ,which might be more effective vs Warrior than on every other class, blindness, weakness, chill and cripple all reduce the simple telegraphed nature of warrior and heavily shut down its damage and chase/kite potential.    

[Shprokets.9746]

On 9/3/2021 at 8:09 PM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Because Cal can only do numeric changes, and doesn't like long request threads (...)

 

I haven't been much to the forums in the last 8 years. Is it common to see Cal Cohen reply to these these feedbacks / suggestions?

 

The Warrior preview, so far, has been so absolutely way above the other previewed* classes, that I hope it is part of his hand on what he reads here.

 

*The drawings before the reveals.

[BlackTruth.6813]

The old berserker was better designed honestly, damage nerf and arcing slice nerf is too much, literally not fun to play berserker anymore.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

39 minutes ago, Shprokets.9746 said:

 

I haven't been much to the forums in the last 8 years. Is it common to see Cal Cohen reply to these these feedbacks / suggestions?

No. But he and the Dev team have taken suggestions straight from the forums before. I suggested the change to Brave Stride for instance on the forums, and they lifted my exact language from my post in their balance update notes for it. Cal made the competitive CD a tad too high though.

 

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

14 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

No. But he and the Dev team have taken suggestions straight from the forums before. I suggested the change to Brave Stride for instance on the forums, and they lifted my exact language from my post in their balance update notes for it. Cal made the competitive CD a tad too high though.

 

10 seconds too high, in fact xD

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

6 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

10 seconds too high, in fact xD

Having played with it in PvE I can say that the PvE CD would be too low in competitive play. A 6s CD would be spot on though.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

25 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Having played with it in PvE I can say that the PvE CD would be too low in competitive play. A 6s CD would be spot on though.

Idk man...after seeing the stability that some other classes have (e.g., flamethrower engis with perma stability? Tempest with stab every time the use an overload? Etc), I don't see the problem with getting a measly stack of stability for 2s for each movement skill. Especially if I have to give up Peak Performance (and the traited mending and bulls charge) for it... It's a tough sell.