Compaired to vind, bladesworn and catalyst virtupso feels lile a core spec.

[Zoser.7245]

27 minutes ago, Allarius.5670 said:

Isn't the sustain issue a Mesmer-wide problem? Providing a solution for Mirage only doesn't help core, Chrono, or the upcoming Virtuoso.

Well, Cal only mentioned the Mirage's sustain...  as an answer about the Mirage's problem against professions dominating PvP. And only because it was the single "one dodge man" and badly nerfed. But now, with the Vindicator upcoming... who knows if they'll throw it away with the forgotten trash.   For now, the sustain problem, even being an issue for core mesmer, it seems ignored by them.

Ask him, i don't have the answer.  It's expected some more balance before the expansion plus one or two reworks if they have enough time.  But only developers know what will be involved and what professions.

Edited September 18, 2021 by Zoser.7245

[Allarius.5670]

1 minute ago, Zoser.7245 said:

Well, Cal only mentioned the Mirage's sustain...  as an answer about the Mirage's problem against professions dominating PvP. And only because it was the single "one dodge man" and badly nerfed. But now, with the Vindicator upcoming... who knows if they'll throw it away with the forgotten trash.   For now, the sustain problem, even being an issue for core mesmer, it seems ignored by them.

 

Ask him, i don't have the answer.  It's expected some more balance before the expansion plus one or two reworks if they have enough time.  But only developers know what will be involved 

Thanks for the insight!

[Fueki.4753]

I significantly prefer Virtuoso to the new three.

Virtuoso has a theme I like, Utilities I like, a weapon I quite like and at least one trait in every column that I like.

 

Not a single one of the three new specializations ticks any these three boxes for me.

Catalyst was the closest, almost ticking half of the weapon box. But that's simply not good enough when I have superior options.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[Nezekan.2671]

47 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

I significantly prefer Virtuoso to the new three.

Virtuoso has a theme I like, Utilities I like, a weapon I quite like and at least one traits in every column I like.

 

Not a single one of the three new specializations ticks any these three boxes for me.

Catalyst was the closest, almost ticking half of the weapon box. But that's simply not good enough when I have superior options.

Like as in thematic preference? Because dagger is objectively the worst weapon. It does nothing but damage, and it does less damage than all mesmer weapons. SO its just worthless.

[Leonidrex.5649]

49 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

I significantly prefer Virtuoso to the new three.

Virtuoso has a theme I like, Utilities I like, a weapon I quite like and at least one traits in every column I like.

 

Not a single one of the three new specializations ticks any these three boxes for me.

Catalyst was the closest, almost ticking half of the weapon box. But that's simply not good enough when I have superior options.

can you elaborate what you like about virtuoso and most importantly, why ?
for example name the traits you like and why, say what you like about the profession mechanic 

[Fueki.4753]

47 minutes ago, Nezekan.2671 said:

Like as in thematic preference? Because dagger is objectively the worst weapon. It does nothing but damage, and it does less damage than all mesmer weapons. SO its just worthless.

Not everything needs to do top damage. To me, enjoyment is a far more important aspect. And I most likely will enjoy Virtuoso's dagger more than any pistol, or yet another melee power greatsword.

45 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

can you elaborate what you like about virtuoso and most importantly, why ?
for example name the traits you like and why, say what you like about the profession mechanic 

Virtuoso simple and doesn't have unnecessarily convoluted mechanics.

I prefer the magic knife juggler theme over a pop fiction Samurai mixed with Gunbreaker, anotherAttunement-swap heavy Elementalist or a Greatsword jumper with flip-over utilities.

[Zenith.7301]

Virtuoso was a lazy excuse for fixing the core problems afflicting mesmers with clones and shatters.

 

Instead of fixing target swapping with clones by allowing clones to not despawn on target death, moving retarget to retarget clones on shatter target or weaponskill #3 like axe 3, and improving core clone generation and shaving off phantasm wind up, they went and wasted an elite spec on trying to fix mesmer's problem of target swapping, long ramp up to burst, and clone frailty.

[Skyroar.2974]

ALL 3 specs from the first batch seem underwhelming compared to the most recent 3, but out of the initial reveal, Virtuoso still felt the most polished.

[Salt Mode.3780]

14 hours ago, MrAmputatoes.6031 said:

I've said it time and time again, Virtuoso was NOT designed with Mesmer mains in mind. Its a simplification to every aspect of the class so that those who "don't want to learn clones" can finally play Mesmer. If Twitter and Reddit are to go by, everyone thinks Mesmers are OP and impossible to play against because people can't figure out which Mesmer is the real one. I mean this game is so hand holdy that people don't even learn what a break bar is or how to CC.

 

Virtuoso is designed around the lowest common denominator so that anyone can now play this class. 

Its 2021 clones can easily get one shot and if people are still struggling to fight Mesmer till this day it isn't the profession its the players themselves. 

1. Clone hp has been massively reduced.

2. Buffs in WvW do not stick onto clones therefore its easy to tell which is the player and which is the clone.

3. Many of the clone related traits have been removed or nerfed to the ground.

 

The problem ISNT that this spec is cloneless its how it was MADE. No one is complaining that its cloneless people are complaining that it literally brought nothing to this class that can be comparable to other e-specs. 

Comments like this is a disgusting excuse for ANET to butcher a profession and catering to the laziness of not wanting to learn a profession that was created that way.

Its like oh Ele has soo much skills too many attunements can we just butcher attunements and get one single skill set? Or oh rev stances are too confusing can we just butcher that because its annoying to switch back and forth?

Its like casuals complaining how hard it is to make legendary so lets post threads to ANET to allow legendaries to be made easier and faster as well as less resources and cost.

No one cares how many times you have said it because all those times your statement is simply thoughtless and baseless. Its nothing but collectively getting people who are unwilling to learn the profession so to gut it as much as possible as a solution.

Edited September 19, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[Levetty.1279]

6 hours ago, Skyroar.2974 said:

ALL 3 specs from the first batch seem underwhelming compared to the most recent 3, but out of the initial reveal, Virtuoso still felt the most polished.

Half of Mesmer traits don't even work on Virtuoso. 

[zealex.9410]

I wonder how ow ppl will feel like when virtuoso makes soloing as a mesmer alot harder, ppl domt apreciate just how much control over mobs clones and phantasms give you.

[MrAmputatoes.6031]

9 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Its 2021 clones can easily get one shot and if people are still struggling to fight Mesmer till this day it isn't the profession its the players themselves. 

1. Clone hp has been massively reduced.

2. Buffs in WvW do not stick onto clones therefore its easy to tell which is the player and which is the clone.

3. Many of the clone related traits have been removed or nerfed to the ground.

 

The problem ISNT that this spec is cloneless its how it was MADE. No one is complaining that its cloneless people are complaining that it literally brought nothing to this class that can be comparable to other e-specs. 

Comments like this is a disgusting excuse for ANET to butcher a profession and catering to the laziness of not wanting to learn a profession that was created that way.

Its like oh Ele has soo much skills too many attunements can we just butcher attunements and get one single skill set? Or oh rev stances are too confusing can we just butcher that because its annoying to switch back and forth?

Its like casuals complaining how hard it is to make legendary so lets post threads to ANET to allow legendaries to be made easier and faster as well as less resources and cost.

No one cares how many times you have said it because all those times your statement is simply thoughtless and baseless. Its nothing but collectively getting people who are unwilling to learn the profession so to gut it as much as possible as a solution.

I think my comment came across backwards. I agree with you 100%. 

[Mik.3401]

On 9/18/2021 at 10:17 PM, Fueki.4753 said:

Not everything needs to do top damage. To me, enjoyment is a far more important aspect. And I most likely will enjoy Virtuoso's dagger more than any pistol, or yet another melee power greatsword.

Virtuoso simple and doesn't have unnecessarily convoluted mechanics.

I prefer the magic knife juggler theme over a pop fiction Samurai mixed with Gunbreaker, anotherAttunement-swap heavy Elementalist or a Greatsword jumper with flip-over utilities.

If that was a well designed, interesting knife juggler it would be fine, but it is trash. So of course you can solo some parts of open world with it, but forget any sort of group content. You’ll struggle on numerous hero points or event bosses so you’ll need to seek help constantly.

So the spec in this shape will be basically absent from any endgame content - why even unlocking that specialisation then in first place? Better to unlock mirage or chrono as a new player.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Mik.3401

[zealex.9410]

1 minute ago, Mik.3401 said:

If that was a well designed, interesting knife juggler it would be fine, but it is trash. So of course you can solo open world with it, but forget any sort of group content.

So the spec in this shape will be basically absent from any endgame content - why even unlocking that specialisation then in first place? Better to unlock mirage or chrono as a new player.

I think its the oposite in group content it can bring good dmg because everyone else is coverimg its weaknesses. In solo or ow content it lacks the defensiveness of clones and phantasms.

[Mik.3401]

2 minutes ago, zealex.9410 said:

I think its the oposite in group content it can bring good dmg because everyone else is coverimg its weaknesses. In solo or ow content it lacks the defensiveness of clones and phantasms.

That depends, so far I believe they do not excel beyond other Mesmer specs in terms of dps. And their utility is a zero beyond that. 

Like thieves and weavers are squishy and deal average dps in fractals, do you see many of them there? Not really

[Fueki.4753]

33 minutes ago, Mik.3401 said:

If that was a well designed, interesting knife juggler it would be fine, but it is trash. So of course you can solo some parts of open world with it, but forget any sort of group content. You’ll struggle on numerous hero points or event bosses so you’ll need to seek help constantly.

So the spec in this shape will be basically absent from any endgame content - why even unlocking that specialisation then in first place? Better to unlock mirage or chrono as a new player.

I don't think everything needs to be able to be a top end cookie cutter numbers pusher, but the numbers could always be tuned.

But if META cookie cutting needs to be taken in account for the viability of a design, it automatically compromises said design.

Apart from the F-skills having cast times to fulfil the "trade-off" requirement, I don't think the design has been much compromised.

And my survivability is just fine with marauder, so better players will be very successful with Virtuoso, even in Berserker or Viper gear.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

11 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

I don't think everything needs to be able to be a top end cookie cutter numbers pusher, but the numbers could always be tuned.

But if META cookie cutting needs to be taken in account for the viability of a design, it automatically compromises said design.

Apart from the F-skills having  cast times, I don't think the design has been much compromised.

And my survivability is just fine with marauder, so better players will be very successful with Virtuoso, even in Berserker or Viper gear.

The problem aren't the numbers but the design.

It's trash, projectile based with low mobility low sustain.

Better players such as helseth? Even him couldn't kill kitten with virt and dropped to gold tier, and he tried a handful of builds.

 

Edited September 20, 2021 by Lincolnbeard.1735

[Fueki.4753]

11 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

It's trash.

Once gain, that's completely subjective.

To me it's simple and fun. That's enough for me.

There are many other specializations that are higher in mobility or heavier relying on multiple mechanics to choose from if one doesn't like Virtuoso.

There is literally no need to make Virtuoso's design complexer and bloat it with additional mechanics, if it only ends end sapping the fun of the current iteration out of it.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[Salt Mode.3780]

24 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Once gain, that's completely subjective.

To me it's simple and fun. That's enough for me.

There are many other specializations that are high in mobility or heavier relying on multiple to choose from if one doesn't like Virtuoso.

I cant believe PvE is used to measure the usefulness of a class in a game that is designed around competitive play. If you want to look at ALL top tier PvE content MMOs like WoW or FFXIV, they have specific roles that fill each section like a dedicated healer, mDPS, rDPS, and tank. The reason why GW2 is based on a competitive play and when I mean competitive I mean PvP is because of dodge mechanics as well as EVERY CLASS HAS A HEAL.

There is a reason why it feels easier to PvE and why you can solo bosses is because of dodge mechanic as well as how heal works in this game. 

It doesn't matter how that class performs in PvE or how it plays in PvE because ANYTHING WORKS IN PVE. Numbers and dps meters are subjective and arguably can be cleared anyway anyhow, its just the matter of clearing it faster or slower.

Just because there are more PvE content now does not mean the game was not intentionally made for PvP. In fact in the beginning of the game PvE was non existent. The game was sold on the basis of WvW and how servers fought servers with siege and tower aka the name Guild Wars.

What isn't subjective is Virtuoso lacking in mobility, what isnt subjective is Virtuoso is slow compared to other e-specs that were shown, what isn't subjective is how warrior's adrenaline traits got WORKED because of FLOW a new MECHANIC that was introduced for them yet Virtuoso got NONE of that.

Oh I forgot...what isn't subjective is they introduced a one dodge class but allowing traits to help regen the one dodge bar faster, that is not in accounting for vigor OR food that gives endurance back.

So before you throw your subjective post and white knighting ANET for their lack of creativity and bias towards Mesmers, do some research. People here actually care about their class that they have been playing since the start of the game, don't need people like you who like "simplistic" which is an excuse for refusing to learn harder mechanics in ruining the hope that the devs might listen and buff Virtuoso.

Being ignorant and calling people for being "subjective" while you are saying how you think its fun is quite hilarious and contradictory. 

Edited September 20, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[Leonidrex.5649]

5 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Once gain, that's completely subjective.

To me it's simple and fun. That's enough for me.

There are many other specializations that are higher in mobility or heavier relying on multiple mechanics to choose from if one doesn't like Virtuoso.

There is literally no need to make Virtuoso's design complexer and bloat it with additional mechanics, if it only ends end sapping the fun of the current iteration out of it.

virtuoso doesnt have a single mechanic, its almost 2022, do we still consider throwing something at someone a mechanic ?
I bet they hired a dev from fiber to do a virtuoso for them, and even then they made it more fun so they had to nerf it

[Levetty.1279]

7 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Once gain, that's completely subjective.

To me it's simple and fun. That's enough for me.

There are many other specializations that are higher in mobility or heavier relying on multiple mechanics to choose from if one doesn't like Virtuoso.

There is literally no need to make Virtuoso's design complexer and bloat it with additional mechanics, if it only ends end sapping the fun of the current iteration out of it.

It is the only elite spec that doesn't have a mechanic. It actually has less mechanics then its core class. Something needs to change. 

[Nezekan.2671]

9 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Once gain, that's completely subjective.

To me it's simple and fun. That's enough for me.

There are many other specializations that are higher in mobility or heavier relying on multiple mechanics to choose from if one doesn't like Virtuoso.

There is literally no need to make Virtuoso's design complexer and bloat it with additional mechanics, if it only ends end sapping the fun of the current iteration out of it.

What's the subjective part? Dagger just deals damage. None of its mechanics do anything. Even then, it still deals less damage than sword. But lets not talk about numbers here.

 

Dagger provides no boons, applies no conditions and doesn't provide any sort of mobility or utility. Its just damage, and mediocre at even that! As someone else here said, do you just want to throw things at people? Is this what's "subjective"? You are not convincing anyone and I think not even yourself. This cannot be a genuine view.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Nezekan.2671

[Fueki.4753]

27 minutes ago, Nezekan.2671 said:

What's the subjective part? Dagger just deals damage. None of its mechanics do anything. Even then, it still deals less damage than sword. But lets not talk about numbers here.

 

Dagger provides no boons, applies no conditions and doesn't provide any sort of mobility or utility. Its just damage, and mediocre at even that! As someone else here said, do you just want to throw things at people? Is this what's "subjective"? You are not convincing anyone and I think not even yourself.

Just because some people don't like dagger, doesn't means its universally bad for everyone.

Virtuoso and the dagger are fun to me and that's good enough for me.

You don't like it?  Then play with something else. Not everything needs to be bloated and numbers can be adjusted.

There already are multiple bloated specializations people can choose to play, Virtuoso is fine with being simple.

 

 

Edited September 20, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[Nezekan.2671]

2 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Just because some people don't like dagger, doesn't means its universally bad for everyone.

You don't like it?  Then you don't use it. Not everything needs to be bloated and numbers can be adjusted.

Virtuoso and the dagger are fun to me and that's good enough for me.

It doesn't need to be another bloated steam pile of mechanics just for the sake of being bloated.

There already are multiple bloated specializations people can choose to play, Virtuoso is fine with being simple.

 

 

Tell me what's fun, other than visuals and art. I am talking about mechanics. Why is dagger fun but other weapons not? These are not hard questions that you keep avoiding.

[Fueki.4753]

3 minutes ago, Nezekan.2671 said:

Tell me what's fun, other than visuals and art. I am talking about mechanics. Why is dagger fun but other weapons not? These are not hard questions that you keep avoiding.

How do you want me to express my personal feeling of enjoyment?

Are you expect me to express the warm tingle in my brain that spreads intrinsic rewards through my veins and nerves?

The tingle I don't get from playing specializations like Mirage or Firebrand?

Edited September 20, 2021 by Fueki.4753