Vindicator looks great, but can it compete with Renegade and Herald?

[Kidel.2057]

First of all, thanks for this great looking spec. Looks very fun to play and interesting. I'm already theorycrafting. 

But... It may still lack something to compete with the other elite specs. It almost feels like a new class, but a core one.  

What I currently don't see are a big damage multipliers (this is a power based spec, how is it going to compete with Condi specs?) and a definitive support. Plus Urn of Saint Viktor is by far the lowest point of this spec. 

Let's say you want to play a support Vindicator using the blue side of skills. Can you boon like a herald? Can you provide Alacrity like a Renegade?

I'll still reserve my judgement with regards to DPS, but it's power based, so my hopes are not so high. 

I can also see that the F2 skill is far less useful on core legends and you don't really have reasons to weaponswap. My suggestion is to give Alacrity or some buff to F2 when using a different legend.

I also really dislike the Urn of Saint Viktor elite upkeep. Pretty sure most people will just double tap it. Healing on Rev has always been luckluster without Glint (best healing skill in the game), so giving up 700+ HP per second is probably not a good idea. The upkeep cost is detrimental enough.

I can already see people doubletapping that skill or get interrupted into the upkeep before the second tap and self-kill. 

Edited September 18, 2021 by Kidel.2057

[Shao.7236]

Players really underestimate what it means to have 50% damage reduction across the board. On top of the evade as well as all the other sustain skills, it would be stupid to double tap a skill that allows you to basically be Rite of the Great Dwarf for as long as it's enabled at the cost of what still wouldn't be any worst than taking full damage. Upkeep can always be canceled at anytime so really, nothing to worry about.

 

Not to forget we still get legend swapping and it's easy to recover that way when the existing legends already perform well enough on their own.

 

It'll definitely not compete in Raids and what not but should be better to use when AoE damage is important over single target compared Swords.

Being better than Herald would be a start because Core is better than it in general.

Edited September 18, 2021 by Shao.7236

[Fueki.4753]

At least to me, Vindicator has no chance competing with Renegade in the one category that matters: enjoyment.

Edited September 18, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[Kidel.2057]

3 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

Players really underestimate what it means to have 50% damage reduction across the board. On top of the evade as well as all the other sustain skills, it would be stupid to double tap a skill that allows you to basically be Rite of the Great Dwarf for as long as it's enabled at the cost of what still wouldn't be any worst than taking full damage. Upkeep can always be canceled at anytime so really, nothing to worry about.

Upkeep can't be canceled if you get interrupted/stunned, which is not rare in pvp/wvw. Even doubletapping can be dangerous.

And if you cancel by legendswap you lose the healing at the end of the upkeep. 

 

3 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

It'll definitely not compete in Raids

At the moment it's dangerous to use in pvp/wvw (and definitely worse than Herald in Zerg) and not viable for PvE endgame over Renegade.

That was exactly my point 🙂

 

 

 

 

[Shao.7236]

@Kidel.2057If that's the case, the elite looks like it can be used even while stunned as it has no apparent cast time on the tooltip, so really the functions here are just backwards.

 

Both stunbreaks are half what the energy cost of one is as well at 15%, Luxon looking like it'd be the most useful with decent Stability.

 

You take a slow look at about everything here and it's easy to see what why and where everything is justified.

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

I'll wait for beta first, didn't even get to see the traits it has yet. Hopefully there is something that covers it's vulnerable points

2k range on 20 energy spear is hilarious though. It seems like it is "cast and forget" kind of ability too.

[Fueki.4753]

1 hour ago, Vasdamas Anklast.1607 said:

I'll wait for beta first, didn't even get to see the traits it has yet. Hopefully there is something that covers it's vulnerable points

You can watch the live Stream recording on Youtube. It has all the traits covered.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

Vindicator will probably be a new type of support - OFFENSIVE HEALER.

It's not his boonshare that makes him great - because it doesn't.
It's his healing potential combined with access to damaging skills.

Put simply Kalla and Glint suck as healers. No condi cleanses, no burst heals, no stunbreak.
If they want to heal for real, Ventari is the mandatory choice and he cannibalizes your damage.

This is where Vindicator comes in. Viktor legend has all you need for standalone party healing - constant healing, burst healing, condi cleanses, defensive boons and a stunbreak.

But at the same time he has access to his offensive counterpart, giving vindicator huge control over his healing vs damage output.
This is unique and something other healers just don't have.

A vindicator player can be the "necro" of end game pugs, carrying baddies via raw powerful healing numbers and defensive boons, babysitting them 24/7. Add him on top of scourge (barriers, ress) and you got a sustain wombo-combo.

But the same vindicator can also join an experienced group that needs much less healing and turn these excess green numbers into dps by abusing Archemorus side of things.

The big thing is a large part of  "am i a healer or dps" is decided in battle with your actions, and not purely in hero screen with your gear. If you slabbed some offensive gear and have semi-healer stats, you can still save your team by resetting legendary alliance stance with traited F2 and rolling your face over Viktor skills twice.
Let's see a condi druid save his team when they ate a big hit and his healing numbers just can't keep up.

On the other hand if things are going better than planned you can just to the same but for Archemorus' side of things to up your own dps.

Any other rev healer spec would have to go ventari and say goodbye to their personal dps wheather they like it or not. Not to mention that's minimum 10s of Ventari "goodness" even if you really needed just 3...

Vindicator frees you from that, gives you superior control and as a final bonus - a free choice of 2nd legend as a healer. For example Shiro can get his turn to shine on a healer, or Jalis can provide some nice fat stab and cc for the team.

[Loules.8601]

On 9/19/2021 at 2:42 PM, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

Vindicator will probably be a new type of support - OFFENSIVE HEALER.

We need new stat-set in EoD to make this work: like Diviner, but with healing power in place of concentration. 

Edited September 20, 2021 by Loules.8601

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

17 minutes ago, Loules.8601 said:

We need new stat-set in EoD to make this work: live Diviner, but with healing power in place of concentration. 

I'd be happy with seraph equivalent - power/precision + healing/contentration.

Also i forgot to mention - the vindicator dodge  is another sign of offensive support. You get a huge I-frame with ability to reposition real well, giving you room to invest less in defensive stats, especially vitality.

[Brunnsteinangel.2568]

1 hour ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

Vindicator will probably be a new type of support - OFFENSIVE HEALER.

It's not his boonshare that makes him great - because it doesn't.
It's his healing potential combined with access to damaging skills.

Put simply Kalla and Glint suck as healers. No condi cleanses, no burst heals, no stunbreak.
If they want to heal for real, Ventari is the mandatory choice and he cannibalizes your damage.

This is where Vindicator comes in. Viktor legend has all you need for standalone party healing - constant healing, burst healing, condi cleanses, defensive boons and a stunbreak.

But at the same time he has access to his offensive counterpart, giving vindicator huge control over his healing vs damage output.
This is unique and something other healers just don't have.

A vindicator player can be the "necro" of end game pugs, carrying baddies via raw powerful healing numbers and defensive boons, babysitting them 24/7. Add him on top of scourge (barriers, ress) and you got a sustain wombo-combo.

But the same vindicator can also join an experienced group that needs much less healing and turn these excess green numbers into dps by abusing Archemorus side of things.

The big thing is a large part of  "am i a healer or dps" is decided in battle with your actions, and not purely in hero screen with your gear. If you slabbed some offensive gear and have semi-healer stats, you can still save your team by resetting legendary alliance stance with traited F2 and rolling your face over Viktor skills twice.
Let's see a condi druid save his team when they ate a big hit and his healing numbers just can't keep up.

On the other hand if things are going better than planned you can just to the same but for Archemorus' side of things to up your own dps.

Any other rev healer spec would have to go ventari and say goodbye to their personal dps wheather they like it or not. Not to mention that's minimum 10s of Ventari "goodness" even if you really needed just 3...

Vindicator frees you from that, gives you superior control and as a final bonus - a free choice of 2nd legend as a healer. For example Shiro can get his turn to shine on a healer, or Jalis can provide some nice fat stab and cc for the team.

 

Shout-Warrior says hello....
And you still don't see those often, even though they got good buffs (one banner no prob, furry, might, Charge-Buff).

Not to mention that you still need a second legend for aliance, and I don't see either side to be that good...

Elites aren't thatz great for PvE, neither the two movement skills, the stun break is also meh.
Leave one ability to do a bit of dmg and a bit of heal. And your own heal skill...
And aside from your traited dodge you don'tz get any dmg or heal support in your trait line...

Tbh, I think it might be better to go shiro/ventari with Devastation/Salvation/Invocation to be a Dps/Heal hybrid.

[Thon.3780]

Imo

it seem Ally play style is to swap legend frequently to refill energy.

compare to Ren and Glint , both consume less energy. That mean you can play them for some period.

and if you see trait , no one will refill energy. Mostly endurance for dodge /jump.

 

if you use Ally and want to use utility skill for a second time, it consume energy a lot.

so possible play style is swap 10 sec and swap back

 

shiro / Mallyx / Jaris with upkeep drain skill ( odd, embrace, hammer) will be key action while waiting cool down and swap back to save energy

 

I am not sure invocation , charging will proper for make build or not

As I see and guess

Devas: dance of death is good for Vul combo with GS and Sw/x.  While use shiro / Ally or Jaris / Ally

corrupt : abysal chill for GS and M/Ax

 

 

[Nephalem.8921]

2 hours ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

Vindicator will probably be a new type of support - OFFENSIVE HEALER.

It's not his boonshare that makes him great - because it doesn't.
It's his healing potential combined with access to damaging skills.

Put simply Kalla and Glint suck as healers. No condi cleanses, no burst heals, no stunbreak.
If they want to heal for real, Ventari is the mandatory choice and he cannibalizes your damage.

This is where Vindicator comes in. Viktor legend has all you need for standalone party healing - constant healing, burst healing, condi cleanses, defensive boons and a stunbreak.

But at the same time he has access to his offensive counterpart, giving vindicator huge control over his healing vs damage output.
This is unique and something other healers just don't have.

A vindicator player can be the "necro" of end game pugs, carrying baddies via raw powerful healing numbers and defensive boons, babysitting them 24/7. Add him on top of scourge (barriers, ress) and you got a sustain wombo-combo.

But the same vindicator can also join an experienced group that needs much less healing and turn these excess green numbers into dps by abusing Archemorus side of things.

The big thing is a large part of  "am i a healer or dps" is decided in battle with your actions, and not purely in hero screen with your gear. If you slabbed some offensive gear and have semi-healer stats, you can still save your team by resetting legendary alliance stance with traited F2 and rolling your face over Viktor skills twice.
Let's see a condi druid save his team when they ate a big hit and his healing numbers just can't keep up.

On the other hand if things are going better than planned you can just to the same but for Archemorus' side of things to up your own dps.

Any other rev healer spec would have to go ventari and say goodbye to their personal dps wheather they like it or not. Not to mention that's minimum 10s of Ventari "goodness" even if you really needed just 3...

Vindicator frees you from that, gives you superior control and as a final bonus - a free choice of 2nd legend as a healer. For example Shiro can get his turn to shine on a healer, or Jalis can provide some nice fat stab and cc for the team.

Already exists and guess what? Guardian does it way better, even renegade does it better. Power hybrid builds suck. They require 3 stats while condi gets away with 2. And heal condi fb gives quickness and might on top of healing while it could even outdamage your "offensive" vindi. In order to support you have to drop the 15% mod. Then you need to spend energy to reach those support skills and those wont be on demand either.

Its not made for pve. Its not even really made for pvp. Is this supposed to be an open world spec? Herald and renegade are better there aswell.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

You guys seem to be mistaking things here a lot.

Support is not equal to healer.
Shout warriors, Power Boon Heralds, Alacrigades are all supports, but none main healers.

All lack raw healing output. Herald and Renegade have no condi cleanses.
They need to go ventari (which brings your dps down to absymal levels) if they want to.

 

Vindicator is an aggressive healer, not boon-share support. He does not fit into current meta, because he will most likely bring new meta. Meta of 3 "offensive supports". Like condi renegade (alac), condi firebrand or power scrapper (quickness), and Vindicator healer (solid healing output, defensive boons and buffs and solid personal damage).

Yes it's harder for power hybrid due to 3 damage stats instead of two, but we've yet to see stat sets EoD will bring and improvements down the line for Vindicator to make him better at his dps healer role.

Edited September 19, 2021 by ZeftheWicked.3076

[Brunnsteinangel.2568]

7 minutes ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

You guys seem to be mistaking things here a lot.

Support is not equal to healer.
Shout warriors, Power Boon Heralds, Alacrigades are all supports, but none main healers.

All lack raw healing output. Herald and Renegade have no condi cleanses.
They need to go ventari (which brings your dps down to absymal levels) if they want to.

 

Vindicator is an aggressive healer, not boon-share support. He does not fit into current meta, because he will most likely bring new meta. Meta of 3 "offensive supports". Like condi renegade (alac), condi firebrand or power scrapper (quickness), and Vindicator healer (solid healing output, defensive boons and buffs and solid personal damage).

Yes it's harder for power hybrid due to 3 damage stats instead of two, but we've yet to see stat sets EoD will bring and improvements down the line for Vindicator to make him better at his dps healer role.

Raw healing output.... is not needed.
We already have Tempest, which gets rarly used, though it does have a LOT of heal AND boons.

And on rev it self we have staff and ventari for a lot of heal and a lot of condi cleanse...

Still sees not a lot of use, even if you could couple it with kala/glint or even shiro for some decent DPS.

[SidewayS.3789]

This spec wasn't created with Fractals/Raids/WvW or even PvP in mind. Prob an open world/story spec. 

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

17 minutes ago, Brunnsteinangel.2568 said:

Raw healing output.... is not needed.
We already have Tempest, which gets rarly used, though it does have a LOT of heal AND boons.

And on rev it self we have staff and ventari for a lot of heal and a lot of condi cleanse...

Still sees not a lot of use, even if you could couple it with kala/glint or even shiro for some decent DPS.

It's not needed if your utility is second grade and personal damage non-existant. Which is why healing firebrand is the meta - healing wise it's still on level of main healer, but has insane level of utility, including the highly desired quickness boon. Price for it is personal damage but it's widely acceptable one.

Healing firebrand does two things well - heals and supports while having nearly no personal dps. Tempests and Ventari heralds heal better but support worse, while still having no personal damage and as a result are niche healers.

Vindicators however promise to be in a  different ballpark - they will have main healer levels of healing with solid personal dps when played well. Utility will be 2nd tier, like tempests or heralds, but unlike them you won't be hitting like a wet noodle. it's a different type of a deal.

[Brunnsteinangel.2568]

25 minutes ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

It's not needed if your utility is second grade and personal damage non-existant. Which is why healing firebrand is the meta - healing wise it's still on level of main healer, but has insane level of utility, including the highly desired quickness boon. Price for it is personal damage but it's widely acceptable one.

Healing firebrand does two things well - heals and supports while having nearly no personal dps. Tempests and Ventari heralds heal better but support worse, while still having no personal damage and as a result are niche healers.

Vindicators however promise to be in a  different ballpark - they will have main healer levels of healing with solid personal dps when played well. Utility will be 2nd tier, like tempests or heralds, but unlike them you won't be hitting like a wet noodle. it's a different type of a deal.

I'll throw the shout/heal warri against it.
You can get some DPS, while having solid on demand heals coupled with good CC (hammer) and good support (1 banner, condi cleanse and a bit of might and furry).
Do we see it alot though? No. And vindicator will suffer the same fate.

 

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

21 minutes ago, Brunnsteinangel.2568 said:

I'll throw the shout/heal warri against it.
You can get some DPS, while having solid on demand heals coupled with good CC (hammer) and good support (1 banner, condi cleanse and a bit of might and furry).
Do we see it alot though? No. And vindicator will suffer the same fate.

 

You cannot throw shout warrior against it, because he cannot take the main healer spot.
Some burst healing from shouts is nice, but then it all goes on massive cooldowns and you have no tools to sustain team through constant pressure in high end content.

Vindicator can do 2.5k heals + 2.5k barriers off his dodge alone. All he needs is to select the supportive grandmaster.
And he can get a dodge every 5s easy, since rev traits can easily get you vigor and bonus endurance regeneration on top of it.

Additionally you got tons of healing in viktor's side of the new legend including low cooldown and low cost healing skill (10s cd and 10 energy) and elite upkeep skill which can be used on demand.

Even the problem of auto-flipping to offensive legend's version of the skill can be addressed with F2 every 20s which essentially means that dedicated Viktor players will have 2/3 uptime on viktor skills and 1/3 on archemorus'.

There is also phletora of defensive boons for party - prot, regen, resist vigor, and ability to use another legend, like jalis with his Rite of Great dwarf and "stability sidewalk".

Warrior has great tools for an offensive support/offhealer, but Vindicator isn't competing with Shout Warriors, Renegades or mirages. He is competing with healing firebrands, tempests, heralds and scrappers.

Just with assumption he gives up the S tier boons (quickness, alac, easy 25 might) for having a very "non healer" personal dps.

 

[Nephalem.8921]

2 hours ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

It's not needed if your utility is second grade and personal damage non-existant. Which is why healing firebrand is the meta - healing wise it's still on level of main healer, but has insane level of utility, including the highly desired quickness boon. Price for it is personal damage but it's widely acceptable one.

Healing firebrand does two things well - heals and supports while having nearly no personal dps. Tempests and Ventari heralds heal better but support worse, while still having no personal damage and as a result are niche healers.

Vindicators however promise to be in a  different ballpark - they will have main healer levels of healing with solid personal dps when played well. Utility will be 2nd tier, like tempests or heralds, but unlike them you won't be hitting like a wet noodle. it's a different type of a deal.

Please explain the solid personal damage. Im not seeing it. It will probably do herald level damage with going full offensive. Dropping the 15% mod wont help the dps output. Also cele ren does ~31k dps and 10man alacrity while also having on demand 10k aoe heal. Cele fb does a lot of heal, while offering dps and all the boons. Cele fb also has better condi cleanse than this thanks to purging flames.

How do you want to heal with this? you have access to some very weak heling skills every 16sec with alac that offer nothing else and the 2k barrier 2k heal dodge. You could play a 37k dps scourge right now which does everything better what you try to achieve. Where do you see main healer levels of healing? Its just useless in pve unless they buff the stuff across the board and even then its a questionable choice because there is not a single good cc skill in the entire shiro/alliance kit. You cant swap to staff for 10sec. Its dps is too low because the entire spec relies on busted gs skills to even do some damage.

There is no way your playstyle works in any raids/fractals. Dodging = no dps. Renegade can already provide perma protection while doing 31k dps and providing perma alac for 10 players and having access to far superior kalla spirits. The alliance legend is just a bad joke. Non of the archimorus skills are even damage oriented. Only the elite is and its weak af.

Edited September 19, 2021 by Nephalem.8921

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

1 hour ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Please explain the solid personal damage. Im not seeing it. It will probably do herald level damage with going full offensive. Dropping the 15% mod wont help the dps output. Also cele ren does ~31k dps and 10man alacrity while also having on demand 10k aoe heal. Cele fb does a lot of heal, while offering dps and all the boons. Cele fb also has better condi cleanse than this thanks to purging flames.

How do you want to heal with this? you have access to some very weak heling skills every 16sec with alac that offer nothing else and the 2k barrier 2k heal dodge. You could play a 37k dps scourge right now which does everything better what you try to achieve. Where do you see main healer levels of healing? Its just useless in pve unless they buff the stuff across the board and even then its a questionable choice because there is not a single good cc skill in the entire shiro/alliance kit. You cant swap to staff for 10sec. Its dps is too low because the entire spec relies on busted gs skills to even do some damage.

There is no way your playstyle works in any raids/fractals. Dodging = no dps. Renegade can already provide perma protection while doing 31k dps and providing perma alac for 10 players and having access to far superior kalla spirits. The alliance legend is just a bad joke. Non of the archimorus skills are even damage oriented. Only the elite is and its weak af.

That is a lot of very valid and good points i missed.
But 31k dps cele rene - geezus. Talk about overperforming.

Still there is one thing that supports my theory - the spec in design in progress and they want it to sell.
I doubt they created a dps/healer hybrid only for it to fail on both ends.
Than again it is a-net, the guys who made scourge and renegade, two pure kitten specs that both overperform and have little to d with concept of high reward for high skill investment...

That doom and gloom aside. We've only seen what we've been shown. Many things remain without answers. Things like:

a) does the dodge always take the form of "Dragoon Jump" and lasts 1.5~3s, or can I just tap it for instant results without as much as regular dodge animation taking up time from dps rotation?

b) what are the base values and scaling on healing skills? Might be base values are enough when in a good groups and there's no need to bother with too big healing power investments.

c) same for greatsword and damage oriented skills. Will it surpass power herald?

d) what kind of gear stat sets will EoD provide to help vindicators do their job?

I'm pretty sure one way or another vindicators will be made very viable.

Edited September 19, 2021 by ZeftheWicked.3076

[Knighthonor.4061]

I plan on trying WvW support vindicator at some point. Want to create a mayhem bunker fighter for WvW. Got my build and stats planned out already.  Need to work on the support spec next and a straight up dps spec.

[Kidel.2057]

Forgot to mention the lack of CC. That's bad for PvE. 

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

24 minutes ago, Kidel.2057 said:

Forgot to mention the lack of CC. That's bad for PvE. 

Bad in general tbh.  I'm very disappointed that it lacks any CC for wvw and pvp as well

[Buran.3796]

7 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Bad in general tbh.  I'm very disappointed that it lacks any CC for wvw and pvp as well

   Why bother? In tournaments almost every high level thief is running Daredevil (an almost 6 years old spec) in PvP mostly due the third evade, and every high level Mesmer is running another class due Mirage has only a single evade. They didn't bother with cc because they don't expect him to be a thing in competitive game modes.