Have we seen what the Catalyst trade-off is?

[draxynnic.3719]

3 hours ago, Sigmoid.7082 said:

 

Problem is photon forge fits the definition of what Anet would consider a trade-off, precisely because it can't use F5 for the toolbelt skills but its lost to gain access to photon forge. 

 

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/52184-game-update-notes-april-23-2019/?tab=comments#comment-838697

 

 

You may argue photon forge is more useful than a toolbelt skills but in the eyes of Anet that is what they would consider a trade-off. 

 

It really is a fact that whether the change is better or not is an issue of balance, but when it comes to what is lost and what is gained Anet has a definition of what a trade-off is, that for some reason players keep failing to understand. Things like "its not a trade-off because firebrands virtues are better than core"...technically, according to Anets own definition, it is. 

Yeah, ArenaNet never said that the tradeoff has to be equal to the thing you gain. We're not talking about Full Metal Alchemist here (and even there, 'equivalent exchange' was basically that setting's equivalent to conservation of matter - you can change something's shape and chemistry, but the thing you finish with has the same number of atoms of each element as the raw materials you started with). 

 

This is because the full balance consideration isn't just based on the tradeoff, but on having the elite specialisation line instead of a core line, and the actual traits on elite specialisations with strong mechanics are often weaker than core traits because that strong mechanic is part of the balance of the traitline. Consider holosmith, for instance. Holoforge is certainly more impactful than the elite toolbelt skills it replaces. But that tradeoff is further balanced by pretty much all of the holosmith traits assuming you're going to use holoforge. Play holosmith without using holoforge, and you're at a serious disadvantage compared to a core engineer.

 

Tempest, on the other hand... for some builds and roles, not using the overload except in an emergency is the optimal way to play. There's a price for using overload, but no tradeoff inherent in simply taking the line.

 

Of course, balance needs to be considered in how to respond to this. Elites that got hit with harsh nerfs for tradeoffs did so because they were overly dominant in some mode and the nerf pulled them into line. The ranger elite specs are both good examples - druid was able to get too much DPS for otherwise bunkery builds because pets had their own stats, and soulbeasts could use birds to roam while also having a strong combat pet. Elites that aren't overperforming get sidegrades (such as daredevil) or the core might get buffed (revenant).

 

Tempest isn't exactly dominating anywhere at the moment. When Arenanet gets around to it, the appropriate approach is to add to core elementalist, not to take anything away.

[Exzen.2976]

9 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

It's safe to assume that your idea of "trade off" is not applied to ele atm or ever because....you don't see pvp matches with 6-7 tempests out of 10 players and neither you see 50 tempest clearing a pve world event like scourges, which following your line of thought has a trade off. You can keep using your ideology in a vacuum..but balance is what it is

Trade off for using an elite spec over core is a completely different topic to balance of scourge for example. 

 

There should be a trade off for using elite specs over core so they aren't just a straight upgrade. It's a really simple idea.

 

Balance of specs like scourge are a different topic. Does it have a trade off? Yes. Should it be brought in line with other specs? Absolutely. But it should have no bearing whatsoever on this conversation.

[moony.5780]

13 hours ago, bluberblasen.9684 said:

Anyway i have the feeling that catalyst should be the " real core" elementalist. 

Same for me. But then I guess tempest with catalyst together would be too much. But catalyst feels so much like old school core ele (and I'm happy for that)

[manddras.1794]

On 9/20/2021 at 11:40 AM, Blazing Rathalos.1904 said:

Most elite specs lose something from the Core profession (even if what replaces it is better). For example, Weaver has individual attunement cooldowns replaced by a global cooldown, the new Bladesworn loses weapon swap and normal burst skills, etc. I haven't noticed anything like that in the Catalyst showcase, has anyone else?

The catalyst itself isn't enough of a tradeoff ?!?

[Konrad Curze.5130]

you become the worst espec in the entire game, by a large margin

 

that sounds like a pretty hefty tradeoff

[Puck.3697]

19 hours ago, Exzen.2976 said:

There should be a trade off for using elite specs over core so they aren't just a straight upgrade. It's a really simple idea.

what are you gonna take from Catalyst as a Trade off from core ele? Lol.

Rip a Attunement out of it?.. it'll be completely non-functional and Would make core a Direct upgrade to Catalyst realistically. theres nothing for Core ele to realistically lose.. because it doesnt have a Easily interchangable counterpart which can be pulled out without simply just being a direct downgrade.

Core ele Would require a rework to deliever such a thing.

Because Core eles Only mechanic is Litterally attunements, theres no extra layer there and u cant just Swap out Attunements without causing a major problem with every weapon release effectively not to mention to quantity of work to make such a thing work.

so u reach a point where u say "Why not add a fifth trait to core" Easy answer. Nothing to sell by doing it ontop of this while having to additionally create 5 New abilities for every core weapon in the game and then rebalancing the entire core specc, thats a Heap of Development time requirement to introduce this.

 

[HotDelirium.7984]

A trade off implies we lose something to gain something. From baseline ele it seems we do something but gain stuff since we have access to so many weapon skills I assume? However, rn catalyst doesn't build upon that foundation yet. I hope beta provides enough incentive to optimize its traits. Like why is it aura focused when none of the skills actually create any auras outside on 1 skills combo finisher?

[draxynnic.3719]

6 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

what are you gonna take from Catalyst as a Trade off from core ele? Lol.

Rip a Attunement out of it?.. it'll be completely non-functional and Would make core a Direct upgrade to Catalyst realistically. theres nothing for Core ele to realistically lose.. because it doesnt have a Easily interchangable counterpart which can be pulled out without simply just being a direct downgrade.

Core ele Would require a rework to deliever such a thing.

Because Core eles Only mechanic is Litterally attunements, theres no extra layer there and u cant just Swap out Attunements without causing a major problem with every weapon release effectively not to mention to quantity of work to make such a thing work.

so u reach a point where u say "Why not add a fifth trait to core" Easy answer. Nothing to sell by doing it ontop of this while having to additionally create 5 New abilities for every core weapon in the game and then rebalancing the entire core specc, thats a Heap of Development time requirement to introduce this.

 

They did it for core rev. Doesn't need to be a whole new attunement, just needs to be something. Could be as small as having an F5 that simply creates an aura of whatever element you're currently attuned to... and which, if you have any auras, flips over to a skill that will detonate all the auras you have simultaneously. Because there may be no boom today, but there's always boom tomorrow.

[Puck.3697]

Just now, draxynnic.3719 said:

They did it for core rev. Doesn't need to be a whole new attunement, just needs to be something. Could be as small as having an F5 that simply creates an aura of whatever element you're currently attuned to... and which, if you have any auras, flips over to a skill that will detonate all the auras you have simultaneously. Because there may be no boom today, but there's always boom tomorrow.

well it didnt work very well considering... Core rev is Waaay below Vindicator, Renegade and herald in all content still 😛

[draxynnic.3719]

1 minute ago, Daddy.8125 said:

well it didnt work very well considering... Core rev is Waaay below Vindicator, Renegade and herald in all content still 😛

Mostly true, but at least it exists, and now that it exists they could buff it if they decide in the future that they want to make core a bit better without making the elite specialisations better.

 

To tell the truth, though, core revenant's problems go much deeper than tradeoffs - it's largely because the only core legends that really work well together are Shiro and Jalis (you can make the others work, but it requires looking very closely at what those legends do have in common and for that to be exactly what you're looking for, like celestial Mallyx/Jalis working well for a tanky build). Furthermore, traits are set up to mostly support the related legend, so you don't get the cross-traitline synergies you see with, say, core guardian. So it's easy to just add an elite and run the specialisations that support your legends and one extra to bring it all together. Or, if you're using Jalis in PvE, the elite specialisation, Devastation, and one extra. 😛

[ClickToKill.8473]

On 9/20/2021 at 9:47 AM, Jumpel.3972 said:

It's not a tradeoff because you can play catalyst without hammer

The problem here is that if you are playing Catalyst atm without the hammer, you might be better off playing Core Ele instead. 

[Exzen.2976]

18 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

what are you gonna take from Catalyst as a Trade off from core ele? Lol.

Rip a Attunement out of it?.. it'll be completely non-functional and Would make core a Direct upgrade to Catalyst realistically. theres nothing for Core ele to realistically lose.. because it doesnt have a Easily interchangable counterpart which can be pulled out without simply just being a direct downgrade.

Core ele Would require a rework to deliever such a thing.

Because Core eles Only mechanic is Litterally attunements, theres no extra layer there and u cant just Swap out Attunements without causing a major problem with every weapon release effectively not to mention to quantity of work to make such a thing work.

so u reach a point where u say "Why not add a fifth trait to core" Easy answer. Nothing to sell by doing it ontop of this while having to additionally create 5 New abilities for every core weapon in the game and then rebalancing the entire core specc, thats a Heap of Development time requirement to introduce this.

 

If you read the rest of my posts in this topic, then you would know that I said I don't think tempest or catalyst should have anything removed and it would be better to buff core ele. I've said it twice if I remember rightly.

 

If you're going to go through the trouble of quoting me, at least read what I say and don't take things out of context. 

 

Anet added to core Rev. Theres no reason they couldn't add something to core ele. What that might be, anet can decide. 

Edited September 22, 2021 by Exzen.2976

[Jumpel.3972]

1 hour ago, ClickToKill.8473 said:

The problem here is that if you are playing Catalyst atm without the hammer, you might be better off playing Core Ele instead. 

 I don't know that much on ele.

The hammer synergyze that much the Catalyst to the point you can't play the spec without ?

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Reduce affinity recharge to 8sec for core elem. 👍
And if I remember right, we had a trait that persists all the previous affinity buffs, when you swapped to another affinity, like the previous affinity kept active.
They made some changes (on soothing mist for example) which made the trait a little obsolete, but core could get the trait back.

 

For example you swith Fire to Air, you keep Empowering Flame (+150Power) Power Overwhelming (+150power), etc for 4seconds . Same for Arcane Precision, Arcane lockdown, evasive arcana, for 4seconds you have the effects of both affinities.

And when you swap to tempest / weaver, you lose this ability.

Edited September 22, 2021 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[draxynnic.3719]

12 minutes ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

Reduce affinity recharge to 8sec for core elem. 👍
And if I remember right, we had a trait that persists all the previous affinity buffs, when you swapped to another affinity, like the previous affinity kept active.
They made some changes (on soothing mist for example) which made the trait a little obsolete, but core could get the trait back.

 

For example you swith Fire to Air, you keep Empowering Flame (+150Power) Power Overwhelming (+150power), etc for 4seconds . Same for Arcane Precision, Arcane lockdown, evasive arcana, for 4seconds you have the effects of both affinities.

And when you swap to tempest / weaver, you lose this ability.

Heck, at this point, you could almost just make it so that your benefit for being core elementalist is that you keep all of the elemental buffs that you get out of your traitlines, regardless of which affinity you're in. Could be a bit broken if that works with Stone Heart, but if they just make it the baseline minors, it'd probably be fine. Hard part would be communicating that to players in-game, since technically speaking it would then become a matter of just getting the benefit of the trait by default, but if you take an elite specialisation that becomes only getting it when in the right attunement. 

[Lazze.9870]

On 9/20/2021 at 1:00 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

keep in mind, for instance, that the harsh one-pet-only tradeoff on Soulbeast came at a time when Soulbeast was already proving dominant enough to attract a nerf)

 

While the pet stat nerf to druid came at the time when druid had already been beaten to pulp and only appeared in pve raids.

So.. eh?

[draxynnic.3719]

1 minute ago, Lazze.9870 said:

 

While the pet stat nerf to druid came at the time when druid had already been beaten to pulp and only appeared in pve raids.

So.. eh?

From memory, it was a pretty strong sidenode decapper and duellist at the time. In part because the druid could go full bunker while the pet did the damage.

[Lazze.9870]

30 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

From memory, it was a pretty strong sidenode decapper and duellist at the time. In part because the druid could go full bunker while the pet did the damage.

 

Except pet damage builds on druid were killed off long before the trade-off even was implemented. Decap druid came later, and was promptly nerfed as well.

Druid in it's current lackluster state wouldn't need that trade-off to stay balanced.

[Seraphic Sonata.8426]

On 9/20/2021 at 8:47 AM, Jumpel.3972 said:

It's not a tradeoff because you can play catalyst without hammer

Haven't we learned yet that getting an elite spec, and then not being able to use its weapon is not fun in any way shape or form.

[Arheundel.6451]

This whole thread stirred up so much drama for nothing, the OP obviously disappeared, the mods breathing on your neck...just for trying to state the truth...that complaining about ele in any shape or form is like....haaa...censorship, but yeah am I allowed to say that I will never see anything above silver complaining about ele?..let's see

[Blazing Rathalos.1904]

3 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

This whole thread stirred up so much drama for nothing, the OP obviously disappeared, the mods breathing on your neck...just for trying to state the truth...that complaining about ele in any shape or form is like....haaa...censorship, but yeah am I allowed to say that I will never see anything above silver complaining about ele?..let's see

Sorry? Still here, just not seen anything I had something meaningful to reply to.

 

Besides, my initial question was answered when the beta began.

[Arheundel.6451]

2 hours ago, Blazing Rathalos.1904 said:

Sorry? Still here, just not seen anything I had something meaningful to reply to.

 

Besides, my initial question was answered when the beta began.

Regardless of any beta result, the starting and ending point of  players remains the same, some will win...and some will lose..the result won't ever change...didn't change after years of forum drama and won't change in the future, you can only ever get better in game....certainly not on the forum.....I can't put it anymore succinct than this..the forum CoC is enforced at all times...lol

Edited September 24, 2021 by Arheundel.6451

[Shiyo.3578]

On 9/20/2021 at 6:00 AM, lLobo.7960 said:

looses access to tempest and weaver traitlines.

This, "trade offs' design needs to stop. It's trash and always will be trash.

[draxynnic.3719]

3 minutes ago, Shiyo.3578 said:

This, "trade offs' design needs to stop. It's trash and always will be trash.

That was my position initially - I felt that core traitlines should be made good enough that sacrificing a third core traitline was sufficient tradeoff - but unless they revert those that have already been done, that ship has sailed.

 

I don't think anyone's likely to complain about core elementalist getting something extra like rev did, though.

[Jski.6180]

What it comes down to is ele has very few things to even give up because it already trades off a lot of effects and wepon swaps  and lowest hp / armor for just being an ele. You cant realty take any thing else from the class with out making the elite spec comply worthless. Weaver trade off is less of a trade off and more of an buff due to just how much lower the swaps are and the number of added skills. Say tempest who only gets 4 more skills then core simply not getting enofe to to warren a trade off of any type. So catalyst who only gets 1 new added skill cant lost any thing or its just a core ele or less then a core ele.

The question you must ask your self is why do other classes have higher hp / armor and wepon swaps vs what ele has what is there trade off for not being an ele in start with?