Vindicator Build Theories

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

I thought I would go ahead and start up a thread for build theories here.  What kind of build are thinking of?  Make sure to put what mode play for the build too.

 

I mostly play on WvW. Currently, I am using a power/condi hybrid gear set with either Retribution/Corruption as a baseline, then for the third trait line, use either Renegade (solo/havoc/roaming) or Herald (Zerg).  Legends are Malyx and then I often switch between Shiro and Jalis if on Renegade or just stay Jalis and Glint if on Herald.  It has a surprising amount of sustainability due to upkeep healing and Torment runes.

 

Vindicator seems very power oriented, but did notice a few sprinkled  condi applications in some the skills, like Torment and Burning, but is it enough to warrant the continued use of hybrid stats?  I’m pretty sure I’ll want to capitalize on the dodge attack, so I’m thinking full power with Shiro/Alliance and Destruction, Invocation, but then I lose out of that sweet sustainability and condi transfer due to Corruption traitline. Guess I could keep my current build and just change to Vindicator but am I gimping myself on Dps since I’m not full power?

 

share your thoughts on the build you have in mind here. 

[GrayHawk.7560]

For an offensive build the first I'm trying is going to probably be something along the lines of - 

 

A mix of either/both Zerk/Marauders with a few Diviner's pieces thrown in for a little bit of extra boon duration with runes of - either Fireworks, Pack, Strength, Scholar or Eagle (haven't decided on rune yet clearly)

 

GS and offhands will probably run with sigils of Force and Energy or cleansing and Energy.

 

Weapons will be GS and either Sw/Sw or Staff depending on how much Vindi's lack of CC hurts it.  Will give hammer a go too I'm WvW.

 

Other Legend will be Shiro/Jallis as appropriate.

 

Traits most probably-

 

Leviathan Strength

Song of Arboreum

Forerunner of Death

[Joxer.6024]

24 hrs to go.....................😉

[Jaykay.9641]

Whatever the build and due to the one dodge mechanic plus players having experience with Mirage, we'll see some staple gear used for a lot of the builds that come up:

• Energy sigils
• Superior Rune of the Adventurer
• Bowl of Orrian and Truffle Meat Stew or Holographic Super Cake
• and my personal favorite - Stamina Sigils (going to be so fun WvW zerg bombing this!)

If you don't have legendary runes or sigils, may want to get these now. Very good chance these go up in price starting tomorrow 🙂

•  

[Za Shaloc.3908]

I have so many ideas. Probably gonna try to no-life this week and record some footage. The ones I am excited for the most are Alliance/Jalis and Alliance/Ventari supports. 

 

A couple things I am curious about is how Charged Mists will feel/flow the legend, and if GS will provide enough defense to replace staff. I suspect it may which is super hype. If that is the case I will probably swap offhand sword for axe on power builds so I can get back some CC.

[Jaykay.9641]

35 minutes ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

and if GS will provide enough defense to replace staff. I suspect it may which is super hype. If that is the case I will probably swap offhand sword for axe on power builds so I can get back some CC.

Was thinking the same thing. Being stuck using staff for almost every PvP/WvW roaming build is frustrating and now it seems we might be able to shed that weapon.

I can definitely see GS/Sword/Axe as a weapon set now. We have a built in block and mobility in GS now to match other professions (*cough* Ranger *cough*).  Also, Alliance legend gives a built in cleanse/healing/mobility for sustain that Staff provided as well. Finally, offhand sword was almost mandatory for damage since Staff didn't have much. Don't forget that we can get even more mobility with offhand axe and Axe 4 (Frigid Blitz) has a decent power coefficient at 1.5 so it can do some damage in it's own right.

So my prediction: Alliance/Shiro GS/Sword/Axe will become a viable Roamer for WvW and sPvP while also providing a new power Zerg build with Hammer/GS and Dodge damage spam.

I have concerns with Alliance F2 (I'll have some feedback on that in official thread when it launches), but I'm exciting for Vindicator!

[Buran.3796]

1 hour ago, Jaykay.9641 said:

Whatever the build and due to the one dodge mechanic plus players having experience with Mirage, we'll see some staple gear used for a lot of the builds that come up:

• Energy sigils
• Superior Rune of the Adventurer
•  

   What people fails to notice is that energy sigils are along cleansing sigils amongst the most used ones in WvW/PvP, so using them doesn't "even the field"  against characters with two dodges, only puts you near the common baseline at which everyone starts, and obviously other players using them are in clear advantage.

   Another funny thing is how much a single weakness stack will wreck the whole theorycrafting house of cards which is the  "let's gain vigor/endurance ASAP to compensate the handicap". My roamer Renegade, as an example (short bow + staff, tb + vipers, Shiro & Jalis) literally perspires weakness: Enchanted Daggers, Planar Protection, Mender's Rebuke, Surge of the Mist, Jade Winds, Scorchrazor, Soothing Stone, Forced Engagement, Inspiring Reinforcement...   The weakness from half of those skills last from 4.75 to 5.25 seconds at WvW with my current stats, so there's no way a Vindicator would able to engage 1 on 1 without being engulfed in weakness.

   Personally I'll try the Alliance a bit but the only WvW build I can see to "work" (and by work I mean being clearly subpar) would be greatsword + hammer, Shiro + Jalis with Retribution and Invocation. A pure glass cannon designed to die in a blaze of glory...

[GrayHawk.7560]

32 minutes ago, Jaykay.9641 said:

Was thinking the same thing. Being stuck using staff for almost every PvP/WvW roaming build is frustrating and now it seems we might be able to shed that weapon.

I can definitely see GS/Sword/Axe as a weapon set now. We have a built in block and mobility in GS now to match other professions (*cough* Ranger *cough*).  Also, Alliance legend gives a built in cleanse/healing/mobility for sustain that Staff provided as well. Finally, offhand sword was almost mandatory for damage since Staff didn't have much. Don't forget that we can get even more mobility with offhand axe and Axe 4 (Frigid Blitz) has a decent power coefficient at 1.5 so it can do some damage in it's own right.

So my prediction: Alliance/Shiro GS/Sword/Axe will become a viable Roamer for WvW and sPvP while also providing a new power Zerg build with Hammer/GS and Dodge damage spam.

I have concerns with Alliance F2 (I'll have some feedback on that in official thread when it launches), but I'm exciting for Vindicator!

Axe offhand is actually a really legit suggestion I hadn't even considered (all round)  it would certainly alleviate a bit of Vindi's lack of CC without giving up too much damage by going staff.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

26 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

   What people fails to notice is that energy sigils are along cleansing sigils amongst the most used ones in WvW/PvP, so using them doesn't "even the field"  against characters with two dodges, only puts you near the common baseline at which everyone starts, and obviously other players using them are in clear advantage.

   Another funny thing is how much a single weakness stack will wreck the whole theorycrafting house of cards which is the  "let's gain vigor/endurance ASAP to compensate the handicap". My roamer Renegade, as an example (short bow + staff, tb + vipers, Shiro & Jalis) literally perspires weakness: Enchanted Daggers, Planar Protection, Mender's Rebuke, Surge of the Mist, Jade Winds, Scorchrazor, Soothing Stone, Forced Engagement, Inspiring Reinforcement...   The weakness from half of those skills last from 4.75 to 5.25 seconds at WvW with my current stats, so there's no way a Vindicator would able to engage 1 on 1 without being engulfed in weakness.

   Personally I'll try the Alliance a bit but the only WvW build I can see to "work" (and by work I mean being clearly subpar) would be greatsword + hammer, Shiro + Jalis with Retribution and Invocation. A pure glass cannon designed to die in a blaze of glory...

 

Rev also has the luxury of benefitting from sigil procs via legend swap, which will make it easier to maintain a proper rhythm while gaining dodges from energy sigil. IMO this is a pretty big deal and a big reason as to why this isn't a doom-and-gloom situation. At this point, I am considering actually running dual energy sigil so I can guarantee that the proc will always happen at some point. Idk, we will see. 

 

1 hour ago, Jaykay.9641 said:

Was thinking the same thing. Being stuck using staff for almost every PvP/WvW roaming build is frustrating and now it seems we might be able to shed that weapon.

I can definitely see GS/Sword/Axe as a weapon set now. We have a built in block and mobility in GS now to match other professions (*cough* Ranger *cough*).  Also, Alliance legend gives a built in cleanse/healing/mobility for sustain that Staff provided as well. Finally, offhand sword was almost mandatory for damage since Staff didn't have much. Don't forget that we can get even more mobility with offhand axe and Axe 4 (Frigid Blitz) has a decent power coefficient at 1.5 so it can do some damage in it's own right.

So my prediction: Alliance/Shiro GS/Sword/Axe will become a viable Roamer for WvW and sPvP while also providing a new power Zerg build with Hammer/GS and Dodge damage spam.

I have concerns with Alliance F2 (I'll have some feedback on that in official thread when it launches), but I'm exciting for Vindicator!

 

Glad to hear you are excited about it. You on NA or EU? 

 

But yeah axe is a really great weapon, even now. I think offhand sword just outshines it in general because of the flexibility/versatility of sword 5. But there have been plenty of situations when roaming axe fares better. Axe 4 is truly so incredibly underrated.

 

I am wondering too if power roaming builds will be able to get away with not using Shiro. Surely the mobility is not AS good on Alliance, but if running GS instead of staff, the mobility from GS3 will help alleviate that, and Jalis has a lot to offer and would complement the teamfight nature of Alliance. Am thinking Ret/Invo/Vindi Jalis/Alliance could make a nice roaming build. 

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

42 minutes ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

 

Rev also has the luxury of benefitting from sigil procs via legend swap, which will make it easier to maintain a proper rhythm while gaining dodges from energy sigil. IMO this is a pretty big deal and a big reason as to why this isn't a doom-and-gloom situation. At this point, I am considering actually running dual energy sigil so I can guarantee that the proc will always happen at some point. Idk, we will see. 

 

 

Glad to hear you are excited about it. You on NA or EU? 

 

But yeah axe is a really great weapon, even now. I think offhand sword just outshines it in general because of the flexibility/versatility of sword 5. But there have been plenty of situations when roaming axe fares better. Axe 4 is truly so incredibly underrated.

 

I am wondering too if power roaming builds will be able to get away with not using Shiro. Surely the mobility is not AS good on Alliance, but if running GS instead of staff, the mobility from GS3 will help alleviate that, and Jalis has a lot to offer and would complement the teamfight nature of Alliance. Am thinking Ret/Invo/Vindi Jalis/Alliance could make a nice roaming build. 

I’m pretty excited myself.

 

as for Shiro, there’s some good utility in his skills, there’s Phase for example.  But more than that, I think Riposte will become extremely important and act as our backup dodge mechanic to make up for the one dodge and/or weakness application on us.

 

sword 4 also has that immob, so that is something also.

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

3 hours ago, Jaykay.9641 said:

Whatever the build and due to the one dodge mechanic plus players having experience with Mirage, we'll see some staple gear used for a lot of the builds that come up:

• Energy sigils
• Superior Rune of the Adventurer
• Bowl of Orrian and Truffle Meat Stew or Holographic Super Cake
• and my personal favorite - Stamina Sigils (going to be so fun WvW zerg bombing this!)

If you don't have legendary runes or sigils, may want to get these now. Very good chance these go up in price starting tomorrow 🙂

•  

Thanks for pointing those out. Just bought some myself, although I’m still debating on the Runes of Adventurer.

[Aravind.9610]

I am a bit confused on this since I never played Daredevil, but does Sigil of Energy restore 75 endurance when your maximum is 150?

[RabbitUp.8294]

40 minutes ago, Aravind.9610 said:

I am a bit confused on this since I never played Daredevil, but does Sigil of Energy restore 75 endurance when your maximum is 150?

No, it's always 50. Same with Sigil of Stamina, always 100.

8 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

   What people fails to notice is that energy sigils are along cleansing sigils amongst the most used ones in WvW/PvP, so using them doesn't "even the field"  against characters with two dodges, only puts you near the common baseline at which everyone starts, and obviously other players using them are in clear advantage.

   Another funny thing is how much a single weakness stack will wreck the whole theorycrafting house of cards which is the  "let's gain vigor/endurance ASAP to compensate the handicap". My roamer Renegade, as an example (short bow + staff, tb + vipers, Shiro & Jalis) literally perspires weakness: Enchanted Daggers, Planar Protection, Mender's Rebuke, Surge of the Mist, Jade Winds, Scorchrazor, Soothing Stone, Forced Engagement, Inspiring Reinforcement...   The weakness from half of those skills last from 4.75 to 5.25 seconds at WvW with my current stats, so there's no way a Vindicator would able to engage 1 on 1 without being engulfed in weakness.

   Personally I'll try the Alliance a bit but the only WvW build I can see to "work" (and by work I mean being clearly subpar) would be greatsword + hammer, Shiro + Jalis with Retribution and Invocation. A pure glass cannon designed to die in a blaze of glory...

But weakness affects everyone equally. Vindicator is not like mirage that uses their dodge for a large portion of their damage.

Only difference is that vindi start the fight with 1 less dodge, that's it, but as soon as they use F2 once, even that handicap is gone.

[hash.8462]

The problem of Forerunner of Death is not just the 150 bar... but more importantly, your dodge will require 3 seconds to complete... is more like an immunity skill than a DPS one.

[Thon.3780]

IMO possible build is 

Legend : shiro / ally for solo condi/dps mix

trait

corrupt : 1/1/3

invo: 2/2/2

ally :Redemptor's Sermon, Song of Arboreum, Vassals of the Empire

 

GW  : sigil energy, hydromany

M/A : : sigil energy, hydromany

rune : may be torment or adventurer

 

Use sigil to freeze + torment effect , and 3rd normal hit trigger 

10 sec swap to shiro and use odd to deal condi or add dps ,  

swap to refill energy

10 sec swap to transfer condi back ( let say clean), and Sermon as emergencies 

invo for refill energy , swiftness 

 

Edited September 21, 2021 by Thon.3780

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

1 hour ago, Thon.3780 said:

IMO possible build is 

Legend : shiro / ally for solo condi/dps mix

trait

corrupt : 1/1/3

invo: 2/2/2

ally :Redemptor's Sermon, Song of Arboreum, Vassals of the Empire

 

GW  : sigil energy, hydromany

M/A : : sigil energy, hydromany

rune : may be torment or adventurer

 

Use sigil to freeze + torment effect , and 3rd normal hit trigger 

10 sec swap to shiro and use odd to deal condi or add dps ,  

swap to refill energy

10 sec swap to transfer condi back ( let say clean), and Sermon as emergencies 

invo for refill energy , swiftness 

 

Interesting build, what mode would this be for?  Also, are you worried you could be doing better power dps if you went hybrid, or do you feel there's enough condi in GS and Alliance to make up for it?

[Kidel.2057]

I've been using this one in PvE (and the same one but with different stat, runes and Saint's Shield (GM3) for WvW). 

https://imgur.com/Dekyf06

 

Regarding runes you can get Scholar, Eagle, even Fireworks are viable to help with Fury and Vigor.
Sigils are basically mandatory Force+Energy on both weapons to generate endurance on legend swap. 

The build allows for easy 25 stacks of might, perma Endurance, perma Fury and perma Resolution. Has less damage modifiers compared to a Devastation build, but at least has has Vicious Reprisal. It could be better if in the future Vindicator gets a +15% damage with Vigor. 

I've tried to use legendary Alliance all day but it's so bad that once I got to Jalis/Shiro I felt like a god. Having cooldowns on bad skills is terrible on top of all the managing that this profession requires. 

At the end of the day this build is super fun to use and provides good. In WvW it can easily spam Saint's Shield. Imperial Impact is less spammable but fun to use in PvE. Too bad is a hard dps loss, so Saint's Shield could be the best solution there too, allowing a more aggressive stat selection and to keep up Scholar easily. 

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

Any more thoughts on build theory after the beta?

personally I think I’m going to abandon condi stats now.   GS and Alliance legend just says power.  Sure there’s a few condis sprinkled sparsely in there, but I don’t think it’s even enough condi for hybrid stats.  I also feel that either Jalis or Shiro are going to be mandatory.  I found myself often relying on Reposting Shadows more often than not when using the dps dodge trait. 
 

I’m still trying to figure out a way to work in Healing Power since there seems to be a lot of healing in Saints skills.  Also the heal skill in Alliance is still pretty low, even when hitting 5 targets.  Unfortunately, dps numbers seem to require a full glass stat commitment just to get decent numbers, so dps will suffer if putting in Heal Power.  At this point, I’m not really sure what I’m going to do.

 

What is your plan? 

[Aeolus.3615]

3 hours ago, Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

Any more thoughts on build theory after the beta?

(snip)

 

I would play power only builds with  marauder , zerker or assassin stats, dont think any other stats would be eficient with this class,  still....victor skills are there and useless on power stats :| 

Edited October 1, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[Jthug.9506]

On 9/20/2021 at 8:39 AM, Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

Vindicator seems very power oriented, but did notice a few sprinkled  condi applications in some the skills, like Torment and Burning, but is it enough to warrant the continued use of hybrid stats?

FWIW Forerunner of Death appears to be a 15% damage buff, not just a strike damage buff, so you could conceivably run mace/axe vindicator, however it would probably be worse than renegade, herald or even core revenant. One possible saving grace is that Embrace the Darkness and Vengeful Hammers both seem to hit enemies even when you are up in the air during the Tenacious Ruin dodge. Unfortunately all condi synergy stops there. No other trait will be of any use to a condi build as far as I can see.

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

2 minutes ago, Jthug.9506 said:

FWIW Forerunner of Death appears to be a 15% damage buff, not just a strike damage buff, so you could conceivably run mace/axe vindicator, however it would probably be worse than renegade, herald or even core revenant. One possible saving grace is that Embrace the Darkness and Vengeful Hammers both seem to hit enemies even when you are up in the air during the Tenacious Ruin dodge. Unfortunately all condi synergy stops there. No other trait will be of any use to a condi build as far as I can see.

Yeah, that’s what I concluded during my testing.