Perhaps Controversial way to make Berserker Better...

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Cal Cohen.2358, @Raymond Lukes.6302, @Josh Davis.7865. Since you will be apparently looking at major/frequent balance changes post EoD release, I'd thought that I'd put a radical idea on your radar for how to make Berserker better.

 

Bear in mind that this is mostly from a competitive play viewpoint, but in Open World PvE Berserker is also kind of useless. Berserker is mostly a meme in competitive play, and that is mostly due to how Berserk Mode and Berserker traits function. So I had a radical idea.

Just get rid of Berserk Mode.

Nix it entirely.

This would of course require reworking the traitline, which frankly I think most warrior players would be 100% in support of since the rework of it post PoF has not aged well.
 

Here is how I would rework the traits/skills if Berserk Mode was gone entirely:

Lost all Core burst, Adrenaline is capped at 10, Primal Burst are as they are now, but are always available. This means that while the more powerful Primal Bursts are always available, they would only ever count as Tier 1 bursts for traits.

There is your tradeoff. Simple, effective, and self balanced.

All rage utilities that extend Berserk Mode now grant that many strikes of adrenaline per use.

Headbutt would have to be reworked to grant 10 adrenaline instead of 30, remove all stability from both you and the target.

Adept Tier

Smash Brawler would have to change. One option would be for Primal Bursts to grant adrenaline on use, though 5 strikes may be too many.

Last Blaze should reduce the CDs of Rage skills in addition to its current effects.

Savage Instinct:  This would need to be completely different. IT could become anything, but I think the defensive nature of the slot should be maintained. I suggest: Gain protection and resolution for 2s each when using a Primal Burst. On use because that opens up gameplay options/styles. If protection and resolution is too much on one trait, then keep the protection.

Master Tier

Burst of Aggression should grant quickness and superspeed when using a primal burst. Note the 'on use' langauge.

Blood Reaction. The bonus ferocity should become available for 5s upon hitting with a primal burst. Not the 'on hit' language.

Heat the Soul would be unchanged

Dead or Alive may need to become something entirely new though it would also be a valid choice to have it grant 10% increased healing and grant a defensive boon or barrier when struck below 50% HP.

Grandmaster Tier

Fatal Frenzy should have the bonus stats halved and the toughness penalty removed. This leaves it at a net total gain of 300 stats but without any penalties.

Bloody Roar Should be a base line increase of 10% increase with (10%/5%) gained on use of a primal burst for 3s. PvE/Comp Split, again not the on use language.

King of Fires should be unchanged.

Eternal Champion I suggest that the extra toughness be split so that you get some base amount (+150) and the other amount (+150) gained for 3s upon using a primal burst. Again note my language. Though since toughness is used for aggro in PvE it would be better to have this instead be damage reduction split in a similar way, some amount baseline with the rest granted for 3s upon using a primal burst. I won't throw out numbers for that, but it should be roughly equivalent to the amount gained from 300 toughness total.

 

I think this would be a positive and effective change to make to the espec. Berserker in OWPvE is useless since everything dies before you get to really use your mechanic, or dies immediately afterwards and these changes would vastly improve the fun factor and actual competitiveness of the spec in PvP/WvW.

[Infusion.7149]

I think it's too radical a change at this point in the specialization's lifecycle.

Something more rudimentary such as ability to drop Berserk mode as F2 and a passive adrenaline gain when hit would do wonders for openworld.

edit: also because meta Berserkers have around 72-89% berserk uptime (68-98% for condi) in benchmarks it could very well be a huge damage nerf as your suggestion drops them 10% DPS for that uptime as well as 150 power.

Edited September 28, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

40 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

I think it's too radical a change at this point in the specialization's lifecycle.

Something more rudimentary such as ability to drop Berserk mode as F2 and a passive adrenaline gain when hit would do wonders for openworld.

Perhaps, but perhaps not. It depends on what Anet wants to accomplish with their own game when EoD comes out. It just seems to me to that so much of what holds Berserker back is Berserk Mode itself.

[oscuro.9720]

3 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Perhaps, but perhaps not. It depends on what Anet wants to accomplish with their own game when EoD comes out. It just seems to me to that so much of what holds Berserker back is Berserk Mode itself.

While I agree that berserker’s problem is berserk mode, I don’t think getting rid of it is the appropriate solution. Granted I don’t know what I even think the appropriate solution would be, so my opinion isn’t worth much on this matter 🙂 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

35 minutes ago, oscuro.9720 said:

While I agree that berserker’s problem is berserk mode, I don’t think getting rid of it is the appropriate solution. Granted I don’t know what I even think the appropriate solution would be, so my opinion isn’t worth much on this matter 🙂 

Well thanks for being honest.

[oscuro.9720]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Well thanks for being honest.

Always 🙂 

I honestly don’t think your idea is bad (you rarely offer bad ideas from what I’ve seen on this sub), but I like the core of berserk mode. I think changing it would help it keep its more “berserker” style signature than regressing more towards core warrior with a twist. I’ll have to think on this more and play zerker more (my experience on it is rather limited).

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, oscuro.9720 said:

Always 🙂 

I honestly don’t think your idea is bad (you rarely offer bad ideas from what I’ve seen on this sub), but I like the core of berserk mode. I think changing it would help it keep its more “berserker” style signature than regressing more towards core warrior with a twist. I’ll have to think on this more and play zerker more (my experience on it is rather limited).

Don't get me wrong, I like the core of berserk mode too, but I also recognize that it is what is holding back Berserker, especially in competitive play and open world.

 

Raids and FotM? Works as intended, everywhere else though you are essentially 2/3rds of a warrior with a brief moment of pocket burst DPS.

[Gatzy.1043]

Quote

but in Open World PvE Berserker is also kind of useless.

 

returning player here, why is berserker bad in open world? I have noticed the nature of how clunky adrenaline is with the natural downtime between mobs and needing to be able to hit stuff, but headbutt putting me back into berserk on a 20 second cd is generally good enough. do other classes/specs just have a way easier time and i'm unaware? lol

[Jzaku.9765]

1 hour ago, Gatzy.1043 said:

returning player here, why is berserker bad in open world? I have noticed the nature of how clunky adrenaline is with the natural downtime between mobs and needing to be able to hit stuff, but headbutt putting me back into berserk on a 20 second cd is generally good enough. do other classes/specs just have a way easier time and i'm unaware? lol

Other classes/specs do have it easier but that is a Warrior in general problem. Especially any class that can give itself quickness absolutely destroys open world PVE content.

As far as Berserker goes it's perfectly fine for open world PVE. GS burst gives you massive cleave and Axe burst is providing great sustain through our Might=Heal traits. There might be some periodic situations where your berserk is on cooldown, but by the nature of open world and mounts these don't happen often enough to call it bad.  Spellbreaker might be more immortal but Berserker will kill stuff significantly faster.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

4 hours ago, Gatzy.1043 said:

 

returning player here, why is berserker bad in open world? I have noticed the nature of how clunky adrenaline is with the natural downtime between mobs and needing to be able to hit stuff, but headbutt putting me back into berserk on a 20 second cd is generally good enough. do other classes/specs just have a way easier time and i'm unaware? lol

Goal: Kill this group of npcs. 

Zerker:

Step 1. Go into combat by attacking the npcs. 

Step 2. Use a skill that fills your rage. 

Step 3. Use Berserk mode. 

Step 4. Use your F1 to kill them. 

Repeat this every single time you fight an Npc. 

 

Soulbeast: 

Step 1. Merge ooc. (Only need to it ones)

Step 2. Kill npcs. 

Reaper:

Step 1. Activate Reaper Form ooc. (Has always enough LF for it) 

Step 2. Kill npcs. 

Etc... 

Etc....

[BlackTruth.6813]

I'd rather have this as an idea for a berserker rework than the current state, but I'd rather have them revert to the old berserker personally because old berserker feinting was actually fun.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

4 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Goal: Kill this group of npcs. 

Zerker:

Step 1. Go into combat by attacking the npcs. 

Step 2. Use a skill that fills your rage. 

Step 3. Use Berserk mode. 

Step 4. Use your F1 to kill them. 

Repeat this every single time you fight an Npc. 

The issue with those steps is that unless you kitten yourself on purpose most OW mobs are dead/almost dead by the time you get to step 3!

4 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Soulbeast: 

Step 1. Merge ooc. (Only need to it ones)

Step 2. Kill npcs. 

Reaper:

Step 1. Activate Reaper Form ooc. (Has always enough LF for it) 

Step 2. Kill npcs. 

Etc... 

Etc....

And with the changes I mention in the main post, you'd be using F1's a whole lot more.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

6 hours ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

Other classes/specs do have it easier but that is a Warrior in general problem. Especially any class that can give itself quickness absolutely destroys open world PVE content.

As far as Berserker goes it's perfectly fine for open world PVE. GS burst gives you massive cleave and Axe burst is providing great sustain through our Might=Heal traits. There might be some periodic situations where your berserk is on cooldown, but by the nature of open world and mounts these don't happen often enough to call it bad.  Spellbreaker might be more immortal but Berserker will kill stuff significantly faster.

My problem at least is I kill things before I ever get to use a primal burst 🤷‍♂️ 

What is the point of having the mechanic if I never get to use it in a reasonable fashion?

[Mesket.5728]

They ruined berserker with the infamous "trade off" when they removed normal burst and always angry (what let you play on downtime).

It became the most boring thing to play. For open world it simply doesny work. You are 2/3 of your character for around 90% of the playtime. For bosses is just a banner carrier F1 spamfest.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

16 minutes ago, Mesket.5728 said:

They ruined berserker with the infamous "trade off" when they removed normal burst and always angry (what let you play on downtime).

It became the most boring thing to play. For open world it simply doesny work. You are 2/3 of your character for around 90% of the playtime. For bosses is just a banner carrier F1 spamfest.

Berserker 1.0 felt like a Alpha version of a Elite Spec.  A base concept.  Like Bladesworn is now. 

Berserker 2.0 is a bandaid fix that made it even worse. 

 

[Verdict is Vengence.6912]

1 hour ago, Mesket.5728 said:

They ruined berserker with the infamous "trade off" when they removed normal burst and always angry (what let you play on downtime).

It became the most boring thing to play. For open world it simply doesny work. You are 2/3 of your character for around 90% of the playtime. For bosses is just a banner carrier F1 spamfest.

It's insanity. It's like they lured Berserker into a dark room and beat it to a pulp then left it in there like it was a job well done. I can't fathom why they never changed it back.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

19 minutes ago, Verdict is Vengence.6912 said:

It's insanity. It's like they lured Berserker into a dark room and beat it to a pulp then left it in there like it was a job well done. I can't fathom why they never changed it back.

Because eating crow can be a hard thing to do. Some exact reason why we've had the trash Feb2020 balance for soon to be 2 years now.

[Gatzy.1043]

What about removing or delaying adrenaline decay out of combat, and berserk cd refreshes when exiting combat?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 minutes ago, Gatzy.1043 said:

What about removing or delaying adrenaline decay out of combat, and berserk cd refreshes when exiting combat?

No. That is a very old nerf from before HoT. Capping Adrenaline to 10 and having Primal Bursts available 24/7 would be enough to get them off quickly.
 

If you want to keep Berserk Mode, then what it needs is an F2 to leave the mode manually, but that just alleviates a few issues with the spec rather than fixes them.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

45 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

No. That is a very old nerf from before HoT. Capping Adrenaline to 10 and having Primal Bursts available 24/7 would be enough to get them off quickly.
 

If you want to keep Berserk Mode, then what it needs is an F2 to leave the mode manually, but that just alleviates a few issues with the spec rather than fixes them.

Or tbh just make it Ala SpB. 

 

F1 primal Bursts with normal burst CD. 

 

F2 Berserker's Rage (not rly a mode since it won't alter Primals) giving you the Stat increases and Boon of current zerk mode as well as reduced CD on Primals in F1. 

[Shinichi Megure.8061]

I don't think getting rid of t3 burst skill is the way to go. t1 bursts will lead to a more spamful playstyle and take away the impact of landing one. For me the t3 is more fun to play.

 

to make it more viable i would suggest buffing some of the t3burst skills like hammer, bow, sword

 

also a condi cleans trait in defence or arms traitline and more traits that give adrenaline

[Dadnir.5038]

Personally I wouldn't mind such change to berserker. Some points:

1. Axe primal burst might need it's CD reset on hit to be removed.
2. You build 10 point of adrenaline very quickly, I don't think more adrenaline gain through berserker trait is needed (at least not as much as you seem to suggest).
3. The toughness penalty being removed is overdue. But I think you'd might need to spread the damage potential from this trait onto other traits.
4. I disagree with you on eternal champion, it's not a bad thing for the berserker to have an "increase aggro" trait as it could allow the Berserker to fight for a tank spot in PvE (granted that it's support is already welcome, having it ready to tank might be the cherry on the pie).
5. Burst of aggression and Feel no pain could proc on "elite skill" use, which would synergize with the low CD of head butt.

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

28 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Personally I wouldn't mind such change to berserker. Some points:

1. Axe primal burst might need it's CD reset on hit to be removed.

Fair point, but I would increase its damage then. Not by much mind you.

28 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

1. You build 10 point of adrenaline very quickly, I don't think more adrenaline gain through berserker trait is needed (at least not as much as you seem to suggest).

You may be right, it was more of what do you do with the existing functionality. But then it also would distinguish it more from Core. Core may get T3 and T2 bursts, but Berserker would get more T1 bursts off.

28 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

1. The toughness penalty being removed is overdue. But I think you'd might need to spread the damage potential from this trait onto other traits.

I did suggest cutting the damage potential in half, so I don't think it needs to be spread out.

28 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

1. I disagree with you on eternal champion, it's not a bad thing for the berserker to have an "increase aggro" trait as it could allow the Berserker to fight for a tank spot in PvE (granted that it's support is already welcome, having it ready to tank might be the cherry on the pie).

Difference in flavor really. I'd personally prefer the straight damage reduction over the toughness.

28 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

1. Burst of aggression and Feel no pain could proc on "elite skill" use, which would synergize with the low CD of head butt.

 

They could, but then they would be stapling Headbutt to the bar to maximize effectiveness and that isn't a good thing.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

Note: all of my comments and suggestions are from a PvP perspective only.

 

I think Berserker is in a tricky spot.  

 

On the one hand, it is very much underperforming in competitive modes.  It needs help, especially in the area of sustain.  I keep coming back to Reaper, which can be strong outside of shroud and actually gets both tougher AND does more damage when in it.  Where is the trade-off?  Oh, and they can take utilities that lets them port away when they get in trouble.  'Cause that's fair.  

 

On the other hand, Berserker is capable of some truly impressive spike damage.  Decapitate usually hits for around 6k on the build I use, but very rarely it will hit for up to 10k.  We've all see the gunflame meme builds deleting people to the tune of 10-12k per hit at 1500 range.  As it is, those builds are toxic--or would be, if they were viable for more than ganking people.

 

So any rework of Berserker needs to improve the viability of more serious builds while not feeding the toxicity of the meme crap.  The last thing we need is more DH look-alikes in this game.

 

I think the simplest (not necessarily the overall best, mind you) way to achieve this would be to decrease the CD of berserk mode to 10s in competitive modes (8.5s if you're running discipline with its reduced burst CD) and reduce the damage of of some of the highest damaging burst skills like arc divider, decapitate, and gunflame by about 10%.  The increased accessibility of Berserk mode and its bursts should more than make up for the decreased damage on the bursts, but that damage will be spread out over time (i.e., less powerful bursts but more of them), which allows for greater counter-play. 

 

You might need to nerf or otherwise re-work Blood Reckoning, too, since it's primary purpose is to spam burst skills and isn't really about sustain in competitive play.

 

Beyond that, removing/reducing the toughness penalty would go a long way.  So would reworking Eternal Champion.  I'm in favor of something like: 

 

+150 toughness/+450 toughness in Berserk mode (assuming the current -300 toughness penalty).  

Gain Might on Critical Hit (1s CD)

 

OR

 

+150 toughness/+450 toughness in Berserk mode (assuming the current -300 toughness penalty).  

Gain regeneration (5s) when your health is below 75%.  (5s ICD).

 

I think these would be a few "mostly numbers" changes that would make a big difference in the way Berserker plays.  Maybe still not meta, but definitely a big step forward, and probably more realistic than a complete re-work of the spec.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

I would agree that Gunflame and Decap may need their damage toned down some if Berserk ode was gotten rid of entirely, but Arc Divider has already seen too many nerfs.

Yeah, this is probably unrealistic right now, but after EoD? Perhaps all cards will be on the table.

If berserk mode is kept around, then reducing it's CD and splitting the effectiveness of the  GM traits to have effects outside of berserk would go a long way to make it play better.