Does abandoning modes and creating new similar modes with different names attract MMO players?

[Danjorus.2671]

Do people think that doing so like creating strikes make guild wars 2 an attractive game to MMO players from other games? Will they come into this game with strikes in mind or with raids in mind then see that the last raid created is 4 years ago? 

 

Do they join the game with fractals in mind or dungeons in mind? only to find out that the last dungeon is created ages ago? So the idea is to attract players that like new sparkling things only to find out that they are essentially the same as other MMOs OR is it to attract players from other MMOs that join guild wars 2 and find out that dungeons and raids are abandoned later on? Do those actions entice the 2 groups of players to continue playing guild wars 2?

 

So the levelling experience requires you to go around killing boars,wolves,bats,wurms or carrying water to put out fire,helping with chores,basically like what every other MMOs ask you to do but disguised as hearts instead of quests, OR you go around exploring which is a new idea

 

Most of the expansion stories are locked behind level 80.

Why do the new players have to pay for the expansion only to find out that they could only play the story for expansion with the character they boosted and skip the levelling process in the process of playing the expansion stories? Why not remove the level requirement for stories or re-evaluate the story level requirements with a level designer or narrative designer and make story part of a progressive levelling experience?

 

TLDR: Why not name fractals as instanced dungeons and strikes as raids with instanced buff and redesign the level gates of stories to make it less confusing and more accessible for new players coming into the game? It's a RPG right, the story and questline should be the focus of a RPG. or you are just pushing players of that genre away from the game and have people like asmongold commenting that "yea, i think there's a few people that play guild wars 2"

Edited October 1, 2021 by Danjorus.2671

[costepj.5120]

What a very odd post. The story IS part of a progressive level experience; you progress through the story as you level up. No, a level 1 character can't dive straight into the the third arc of the story; you really think that's a flaw?

New players don't have to buy the expansions immediately, they can level their first character on the free to play core game if they want.

[Super Hayes.6890]

"Strike" and "Raid" should be difficulty levels of dungeons with increasing reward levels. Dungeons, raids and strikes being three seperate things is silly imo.

[Luci.7018]

Rename Raids into Strikes and let's pretend we never discontinued them from the start  (ahaha) .

We shall call it : " Too many names , confuses a lot of people , so we standardized them " or "All of them belong to the National Dragon Mobile  Defense Force"

 

About dungeons  , either drop the non-solo option (it will for the best)

edit: But i believe we should delete the non-story mode +reuse the assets for a new Fractal + when a new player touches the instance "he becomes  the 5th daily Fractal" . Max people 6-8 (1-3 will join from the Dungeon Instance).

 

O̶r̶ ̶w̶h̶e̶n̶ ̶a̶ ̶N̶e̶w̶ ̶p̶e̶o̶p̶l̶e̶ ̶ ̶q̶u̶e̶ ̶f̶r̶o̶m̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶o̶l̶d̶ ̶ ̶d̶u̶n̶g̶e̶o̶n̶s̶ ̶,̶ ̶w̶i̶l̶l̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶c̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶n̶a̶m̶e̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶ ̶U̶I̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶d̶a̶i̶l̶y̶ ̶ ̶f̶r̶a̶c̶t̶a̶l̶ ̶(̶T̶i̶e̶r̶1̶)̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶c̶h̶a̶n̶g̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶C̶o̶r̶e̶ ̶i̶n̶s̶t̶a̶n̶c̶e̶ ̶.̶
̶
̶O̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶f̶r̶a̶c̶t̶a̶l̶ ̶U̶I̶ ̶d̶i̶a̶g̶o̶n̶a̶l̶l̶y̶/̶h̶o̶r̶i̶z̶o̶n̶t̶a̶l̶ ̶ ̶s̶h̶o̶w̶s̶ ̶a̶ ̶c̶o̶r̶r̶u̶p̶t̶e̶d̶ ̶p̶a̶r̶t̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶e̶a̶c̶h̶ ̶D̶u̶n̶g̶e̶o̶n̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶n̶e̶e̶d̶s̶ ̶p̶e̶o̶p̶l̶e̶ ̶,̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶w̶h̶o̶e̶v̶e̶r̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶f̶a̶s̶t̶ ̶e̶n̶o̶u̶g̶h̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶j̶o̶i̶n̶ ̶(̶a̶v̶o̶i̶d̶ ̶s̶t̶a̶y̶i̶n̶g̶/̶p̶l̶a̶n̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶f̶r̶a̶c̶t̶a̶l̶ ̶l̶o̶b̶b̶y̶)̶ ̶w̶i̶l̶l̶ ̶g̶e̶t̶ ̶e̶x̶t̶r̶a̶ ̶r̶e̶w̶a̶r̶d̶s̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶i̶t̶'̶s̶ ̶c̶o̶m̶p̶e̶t̶i̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶.̶
̶
̶T̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶s̶t̶i̶l̶l̶ ̶a̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶b̶l̶e̶m̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶s̶o̶m̶e̶ ̶p̶a̶r̶t̶s̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶D̶u̶n̶g̶e̶o̶n̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶o̶ ̶l̶o̶n̶g̶ ̶,̶ ̶p̶e̶o̶p̶l̶e̶ ̶w̶o̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶d̶o̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶m̶ ̶e̶v̶e̶n̶ ̶i̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶y̶ ̶g̶e̶t̶ ̶d̶o̶u̶b̶l̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶m̶o̶n̶e̶y̶.̶.̶
̶
̶T̶i̶m̶e̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶a̶ ̶A̶I̶ ̶c̶o̶m̶p̶a̶n̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶t̶e̶a̶m̶ ̶,̶ ̶o̶r̶ ̶s̶c̶a̶l̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶m̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶s̶o̶l̶o̶-̶p̶l̶a̶y̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶n̶ ̶?̶

 

 

Edited October 1, 2021 by Luci.7018

[kharmin.7683]

13 minutes ago, Luci.7018 said:

Time for a AI companion team , or scale them to solo-playing then ?

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/102460-mercenary-system-curiosity/?do=getNewComment

 

[Tdub.7628]

People may be attracted to the game because they want to meet new people. Raids dungeons and strikes are still new to them and they could be excited to jump in and experience them. New people don't need veterans to decide what they like or what to do. If veterans arent doing some of these things in game, maybe new people will take it upon themselves to try with other new people. There are lots of variety with high end content if someone has never done it.

Edited October 1, 2021 by tswehr.2143

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

2 hours ago, Danjorus.2671 said:

Why do the new players have to pay for the expansion only to find out that they could only play the story for expansion with the character they boosted and skip the levelling process in the process of playing the expansion stories? Why not remove the level requirement for stories or re-evaluate the story level requirements with a level designer or narrative designer and make story part of a progressive level experience?

1.) You get a free level 80 Boost, which allows you to get your first character to level 80 instantly.
2.) It is NOT recommended to play the expansions right after installing the game. The difficulty of the story requires some basic understanding of the game's functions and the class you have picked. That is why most players recommend you to level your first character the regular way. You learn most of the relevant things on the way to level 80.
3.) The Guildwars 2 core-game is huge, entertaining and challenging. You are free to skip it. If you only play GW2 for one specific reason, so be it. But that does not mean every player out there feels the same as you do.
4.) Story is part of the progressive level experience. I know of a few MMORPGs out there which allow you to gain all exp from story-quests. But again, the game is a lot more than just the story. The concept is to give most things at least a try.

2 hours ago, Danjorus.2671 said:

So the levelling experience requires you to go around killing boars,wolves,bats,wurms or carrying water to put out fire,helping with chores,basically like what every other MMOs ask you to do but disguised as hearts instead of quests, OR you go around exploring which is a new idea

As a new player, you are probably not aware of this: The Renown Hearts are for the immersion of the maps. Your main EXP gain comes from dynamic events. Hearts are 100 % optional, as well as the events. But the events give the better rewards and EXP. You can reach level 80 without finishing a single heart-quest. 

The Story gets kind of difficult, once you reach level 60. The episodes are significantly longer and the encounters are much harder than the previous ones. You can start leveling from exploration early around your level 50+. Even if you just run across the maps and only unlock the Waypoints, you will be 80 long before you have done that in all of core-tyria. If you happen to use Points of Interest and Vistas as well, you will be even faster.

2 hours ago, Danjorus.2671 said:

Do they join the game with fractals in mind or dungeons in mind? only to find out that the last dungeon is created ages ago? So the idea is to attract players that like new sparkling things only to find out that they are essentially the same as other MMOs OR is it to attract players from other MMOs that join guild wars 2 and found out that dungeons and raids are abandoned? Do those actions entice the 2 groups of players to continue playing guild wars 2?

Discontinued content is something most of us are not happy about - surprise! But there are plenty of alternatives. For every gate they shut, the open a new one. While the old content is abandoned in terms of development-progress, it remains 100 % functional. Due to our beloved power-creep, the older content gets easier. The reward-structure remains, which is an incentive to try it out and use the benefits. Dungeons in particular became very easy, but still offer a reliable method to acquire exotic equipment and grant access to some of the most-effective upgrades in the game (e. g. Superior Rune of the Monk for every Healer).

Most new players are often just overwhelmed by the sheer amount of possibilities. It is not like in other MMORPGs where your endgame is a junction with 2-4 options only. 

 

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Is OP a new player?  Seems they have been around for a couple of years, at least.  🤷‍♂️

[Klowdy.3126]

I think in the case of strikes vs raids, they made a good choice. They have created a game that doesn't follow the WoW standard in so many aspects. Raids were just that. They were created pretty much like all other games' raids. Strikes are more like events. They force you through an instanced story. This is a better fit for GW2. They're raids with a GW2 twist.

[Danjorus.2671]

1 hour ago, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

1.) You get a free level 80 Boost, which allows you to get your first character to level 80 instantly.
2.) It is NOT recommended to play the expansions right after installing the game. The difficulty of the story requires some basic understanding of the game's functions and the class you have picked. That is why most players recommend you to level your first character the regular way. You learn most of the relevant things on the way to level 80.
3.) The Guildwars 2 core-game is huge, entertaining and challenging. You are free to skip it. If you only play GW2 for one specific reason, so be it. But that does not mean every player out there feels the same as you do.
4.) Story is part of the progressive level experience. I know of a few MMORPGs out there which allow you to gain all exp from story-quests. But again, the game is a lot more than just the story. The concept is to give most things at least a try.

As a new player, you are probably not aware of this: The Renown Hearts are for the immersion of the maps. Your main EXP gain comes from dynamic events. Hearts are 100 % optional, as well as the events. But the events give the better rewards and EXP. You can reach level 80 without finishing a single heart-quest. 

The Story gets kind of difficult, once you reach level 60. The episodes are significantly longer and the encounters are much harder than the previous ones. You can start leveling from exploration early around your level 50+. Even if you just run across the maps and only unlock the Waypoints, you will be 80 long before you have done that in all of core-tyria. If you happen to use Points of Interest and Vistas as well, you will be even faster.

Discontinued content is something most of us are not happy about - surprise! But there are plenty of alternatives. For every gate they shut, the open a new one. While the old content is abandoned in terms of development-progress, it remains 100 % functional. Due to our beloved power-creep, the older content gets easier. The reward-structure remains, which is an incentive to try it out and use the benefits. Dungeons in particular became very easy, but still offer a reliable method to acquire exotic equipment and grant access to some of the most-effective upgrades in the game (e. g. Superior Rune of the Monk for every Healer).

Most new players are often just overwhelmed by the sheer amount of possibilities. It is not like in other MMORPGs where your endgame is a junction with 2-4 options only. 

 

If the concept is to give most things a try,why lock story behind level gates? You mean after someone new bought the expansion, he or she has to boost or level through the core game content till level 80 before getting to play what he or she paid for? Is that fair? The story did not have level gates before but they decided to add them,how can a new player who bought the expansions proceed to immerse themselves in the story if everything can only be done after they boost a character, he or she might as well just play the core game first, then if the levelling experience isn't interesting,he or she will just play another mmo like what 4 of my friend did, going into ESO,WoW and FFXIV.

 

So your main levelling xp sources are dynamic events and viewing vista, so viewing a scenery is fun and interactive like what a game supposed to be? 

 

 

You know, they didn't really abandon old content, just rename them into fractals and strikes, but to players coming from other MMOs, first impression given is that they abandon dungeons and raids which is core aspects of other MMOs OR to new players that just read about MMOs and come into the game, they will later find out that strikes and fractals are basically the same as dungeons and raids in other games. You think the above scenario which covers abouts majority of the new players will entice them to stay?

 

Edited October 1, 2021 by Danjorus.2671

[Danjorus.2671]

1 hour ago, tswehr.2143 said:

People may be attracted to the game because they want to meet new people. Raids dungeons and strikes are still new to them and they could be excited to jump in and experience them. New people don't need veterans to decide what they like or what to do. If veterans arent doing some of these things in game, maybe new people will take it upon themselves to try with other new people. There are lots of variety with high end content if someone has never done it.

You can meet new people in any game. You rename raids to strikes when they are essentially the same thing and how does that appeal to new players? Read what I said about the first impression you are giving the new players coming into guild wars 2

[Maikimaik.1974]

18 minutes ago, Danjorus.2671 said:

Is that fair? The story did not have level gates before but they decided to add them

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, the story has always been level-gated. 

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

basically anet initially made a bunch of great content through fractals and raids, but neglected them so most of the semi-hardcore population left. So now they have an ultra casual playerbase in a game initially designed for competitive players, so they made easy content like strikes, DRMs, and living world to try and please everyone.

Edited October 1, 2021 by Paradoxoglanis.1904

[Maikimaik.1974]

1 minute ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

So now they have an ultra casual playerbase in a game initially designed for hardcore players

I can guarantee you that GW2 was never designed for hardcore players. The possibility to play this game extremely casually and still not fall behind was and still is one of it's biggest selling points.

[Danjorus.2671]

7 minutes ago, Maikimaik.1974 said:

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, the story has always been level-gated. 

I was around since launch, i remember the personal story was not level gated but maybe i remembered wrongly

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

1 minute ago, Maikimaik.1974 said:

I can guarantee you that GW2 was never designed for hardcore players. The possibility to play this game extremely casually and still not fall behind was and still is one of it's biggest selling points.

i editied my post to competitve. Gw2 was initially a pvp focused game which usually isnt what ultra casual players are attracted to

[Danjorus.2671]

6 minutes ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

basically anet initially made a bunch of great content through fractals and raids, but neglected them so most of the semi-hardcore population left. So now they have an ultra casual playerbase in a game initially designed for competitive players, so they made easy content like strikes, DRMs, and living world to try and please everyone.

It's fine if they want to make DRMs,strikes,fractals but why not name them as dungeons and raids or names that other MMOs used when they are the same model?

[Tdub.7628]

3 minutes ago, Danjorus.2671 said:

You can meet new people in any game. You rename raids to strikes when they are essentially the same thing and how does that appeal to new players? Read what I said about the first impression you are giving the new players coming into guild wars 2

If raids and strikes are "essentially the same" why would a new player care. I would want to try both because it's something I haven't done.

If anyone who reads this feels like they are getting a bad impression of the game, know there are lots of people in this game who like doing "abandoned content"  like raids, strikes and dungeons because it's fun.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

Just now, Danjorus.2671 said:

It's fine if they want to make DRMs,strikes,fractals but why not name them as dungeons and raids or names that other MMOs used when they are the same model?

cause anet design philosophy is to abandon old content

[Maikimaik.1974]

9 minutes ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

i editied my post to competitve. Gw2 was initially a pvp focused game which usually isnt what ultra casual players are attracted to

I'm so confused. When was Gw2 ever pvp focused? WvW and sPvP have always been niche content.

[Infusion.7149]

For all the "Arenanet doesn't iterate" memes, DRMs were so that mounts and gliding could be used (in a 5 man instance) whereas in fractals you cannot use them. Fractals are meant to be a window into the past events much like the scrying pool for LS1.  In addition, DRMs have granularity in the CMs you choose as well as the ally factions that help out. Since you don't need any expansions to play fractals it is important to note DRMs are an Icebrood saga feature and they also scale from 1-5 players unlike fractals which do not scale based off player count.

Strikes were labeled the "stepping stone to raids". So you can't call raids as strikes, but you can technically call strike CM raids or raid-like (see Forging Steel with all CMs) even if the hardcore community despises that idea. In terms of business sense, it makes more sense to design around the lowest common denominator and add difficulty settings especially if you get to completely reuse art and audio assets. Strikes , with Forging Steel in particular, were a testbed to have instances scale from 1-10 players and also introduced public modes which nobody really uses anymore because people realized using LFG and throwing together some semblance of a comp is better.

Edited October 1, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

Just now, Maikimaik.1974 said:

I'm so confused. When was Gw2 ever pvp focused? WvW and sPvP have always been niche content.

when the game launched pvp and wvw were the main selling points. The main endgame was WvW for a huge part of the population, and the game was designed and balanced for conquest and esports.

[Raknar.4735]

Here's Anets reasioning behind creating Strikes as a new content mode:

"Strike missions are a way for us to look back and go, ‘Okay, we have the group that raids, and we have a group that says raids are either stigmatised, too difficult, there’s jerks in there who are elitist.’ There’s all these things, and we’d say, ‘No, no, no, we can show you a path to get to this content.’ We can show you the way that you can get better – that you can experience things that you didn’t necessarily think possible either because of preconceptions, or because of lack of time, availability, those types of things."

and

"The first ones being released are more of a bridge. But the opportunity is there. One of the questions we were asked was ‘Are there gonna be different difficulty tiers?’ In the things that we’re looking towards, especially either through achievements or other ways, we can’t forget about the raid players. Also, they won’t let us forget that they exist! But they are a hardcore group that really are passionate. They want challenge, they want things they haven’t seen before. This is an opportunity for us to find ways to service one tier and potentially service the hardcore audience that is already there."

- Mike Zadorojny, former Game Director, 2019

Edited October 1, 2021 by Raknar.4735

[IndigoSundown.5419]

Raids were introduced because of player demand.  Strikes were introduced in an attempt to get more players into raids.  If that had worked, then we'd likely have seen more raids.   How did that work out?  As an answer, when was the last strike put into the game?

 

The original intent behind GW2 was that there would be no quests, and no leveling.  However, this was changed due to focus group input which led ANet to believe that MMO players, a big part of their target audience, were uncertain what to do and didn't like the lack of progression what no leveling brought.

 

Dungeons as a concept had promise, but the execution was lacking.  A big part of this was that the "standard" MMO player will not, as a rule,  repeat content past a certain point unless there are rewards which they "have to have" for some reason.  As repeat content, dungeons were lacking rewards once you had the dungeon skins you wanted.  ANet learned that many skins don't appeal to a lot of people, so dungeons were found lacking as replayable content.  As challenging content, dungeons were also lacking.  Many boss encounters were subject to being cheesed, lacked challenge, or both.  The biggest lack, though, was lack of progression, which is the foundation on which MMO's rest -- at least in the minds of much of the target audience.

 

ANet sought to address the lack of progression issue first, by introducing Fractals and Ascended gear in late 2012.  This proved to be largely successful.  In 2013, ANet began the process of revamping dungeons, as well as adding harder dungeons as part of the Living Story.  However, their efforts were for the most part unappreciated by  players.  So, ANet decided to focus their small-scale instanced content development into Fractals rather than into dungeons.

 

tl:dr for all the OP's questions: Because players...

[Infusion.7149]

Strikes wouldn't have been implemented if Crystal Reid (raid team lead) wasn't so insistent on "no easy modes" (no mention of even if the said easy mode had zero rewards). People that just want to play them "for the story" were locked out.

Comment didn't age well and they no longer work at Arenanet.
 

Quote

New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

I see a lot of comments about W4 difficulty, so I'll add some notes on that as well. Balance came in later than expected since we had far more bosses and content to test than usual. Are we totally happy with how balance turned out? Yes and no. The Mursaat Overseer base difficulty is too easy, but we were very happy with the CM difficulty. For the next release we'd like to get difficulty tuned more back in line with Spirit Vale. However, some of that original difficulty and magic is hard to re-capture. You never forget your first raid boss kill.

 

Also didn't age well:

Quote

We are against increasing the buff cap from 5 to 10 since it will promote these super groups and blow out balance really really fast. We don’t want to balance around this superground and it is really limiting us as designers.

http://dulfy.net/2015/09/26/gw2-twitchcon-designing-raids-in-heart-of-thorns/

 

See also https://www.pcgamesn.com/mmo-raids
 

Quote

“Raid-style content is one of the many different tools developers can utilise to conjure up an endgame,” Jason Reynolds, senior designer at Guild Wars 2 studio ArenaNet, says. “One of the innate features of [raids] is the fostering of socialisation and camaraderie, which is doubly critical to the MMO genre. Being the first of your peers on a server of thousands of people to complete a particularly difficult encounter brings notoriety, proof of your skill with the game’s most challenging concepts, and oftentimes the end result is solidified, friendly bonds. That’s what MMOs are all about.”
...

Raids have evolved a lot over the last two decades, but there is a consistent formula,” ArenaNet lead designer Crystal Reid says. “At its core, if the content is challenging, requires group coordination, and rewards you for your skill, it can fall into the ‘raid’ category of content. We’ve seen the size of raids drop quite a bit during that time, going from upwards of 100 players down to as few as six. What that looks like in every game might be a little different based on the game’s needs.”
...
“The core players of the game had spent most of their time in a five-player environments through [in-game content like] Dungeons and Fractals, and we wanted to ensure that the raid experience was uniquely different with a larger group size,” she says. “That definitely worked, but it came with the disadvantage that players suddenly needed to add five more players to their core Fractal group if they wanted to raid. It was an added challenge to players that for some created a barrier to entry.”

Needing 10 players for content is a problem because optimal team size in general is 7 +/- 2 (so 5 to 9). GW1 teams were 8 players. In a 5 person group you have 20 relationships or "connections", while in a 10 person group you have 45 relationships. Robin Dunbar (a social anthropologist) actually suggested that people can only have 50 meaningful relationships and Dunbar's research is partly the basis for agile and scrum teams.
 

Edited October 1, 2021 by Infusion.7149