New Thief Elite Preview.

[UNOwen.7132]

2 hours ago, Tails.9372 said:

Ironically DE would have been the perfect candidate for a "commander" type support spec. but they blew that opportunity.

Its not that they blew it really, they just realised they can't have it be viable.

[Zenakou.7853]

I'm legit confused as to why players want thieves to support, that makes no sense. Thieves in GW2 are your rogue/assassin archetype(minus offhand sword)players roll thieves to teleport around and slash things. Eles, guards, and necs can pump out support like a good IT department. Thieves are meant to be a fun DPS class. I don't play my ninja in FF14 hoping one day he'll learn healing spells and be able to buff my team. I just like watching cool kitten jutsus fly out and roleplay as such. I hope ANet doesn't try to make a shadowbender support thief, that sounds absolutely terrible especially since we're getting the scepter when people wanted greatswords or off swords for so long. 

[Fueki.4753]

9 minutes ago, Zenakou.7853 said:

I'm legit confused as to why players want thieves to support, that makes no sense. Thieves in GW2 are your rogue/assassin archetype(minus offhand sword)players roll thieves to teleport around and slash things. Eles, guards, and necs can pump out support like a good IT department. Thieves are meant to be a fun DPS class. I don't play my ninja in FF14 hoping one day he'll learn healing spells and be able to buff my team. I just like watching cool kitten jutsus fly out and roleplay as such. I hope ANet doesn't try to make a shadowbender support thief, that sounds absolutely terrible especially since we're getting the scepter when people wanted greatswords or off swords for so long. 

People want Thief to have good role in high-end PvE and damage alone is not good enough(unless it's disgustingly powercrept), when there are options available that bring more. Thus, Thief needs to bring something supportive to the table to be be good for high end stuff.

Also, replacing Stealth with an actual defensive mechanic might actually add to the fun of the profession, since that specialization would be more less reliant on the runaway tactics other Thieves require and could be more in the face of the enemy.

And comparing GW2 to games with fixed roles like WoW or FF14 doesn't work in this aspect, because GW2 doesn't have fixed roles to their professions.

Edited October 7, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[Tails.9372]

27 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

People want Thief to have good role in high-end PvE and damage alone is not good enough(unless it's disgustingly powercrept), when there are options available that bring more. Thus, Thief needs to bring something supportive to the table to be be good for high end stuff.

Thief theoretically does have a way to "bring something to the table" but the issue here is A-Nets approach to game design. What is one of the main things thieves / ninjas are known for? Exactly, sneaking past things / infiltration but every major PvE content structure runs counter to this design (some story missions have it but they usually give you the tools regardless so being a thief offers no value there either) because the devs want to avoid it like the plague. It's that bad that even for content that would usually synergize well with stealth (like the story mission where you have to fight against Zafirah) they just render it useless for the lulz. There are ways to make more "selfish" classes / builds more useful even in group based content but A-Nets failure to take this into account when designing new content is what really drags thief in PvE down.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

27 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

Thief theoretically does have a way to "bring something to the table" but the issue here is A-Nets approach to game design. What is one of the main things thieves / ninjas are known for? Exactly, sneaking past things / infiltration but every major PvE content structure runs counter to this design (some story missions have it but they usually give you the tools regardless so being a thief offers no value there either) because the devs want to avoid it like the plague. It's that bad that even for content that would usually synergize well with stealth (like the story mission where you have to fight against Zafirah) they just render it useless for the lulz. There are ways to make more "selfish" classes / builds more useful even in group based content but A-Nets failure to take this into account when designing new content is what really drags thief in PvE down.

Side note I really wish there was a crouch/sneak mechanic this game aside from staying a distance from nps's and stealth, just for immersion purposes.

[kash.9213]

3 hours ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

Side note I really wish there was a crouch/sneak mechanic this game aside from staying a distance from nps's and stealth, just for immersion purposes.

There was a proximity stealth/sneak in Age of Conan, but it didn't get a lot of play because it was really hard to maintain, even in maps with mostly other players and no npcs. There wasn't a lot of opportunity anyway during Sieges or in matches, only really some when on the border/open pvp maps. When I lead alliance sieges, I had to position forces to face certain directions to avoid facing the lag core of a map, and that stealth would likely not even show correctly anyway. I think it could work if there were like a 2 or 3 second residual that would wear off swiftly but not super fast, but give you a second to scoot a little if you get a surprise squad rolling over you. 

Edited October 7, 2021 by kash.9213

[Zenakou.7853]

3 hours ago, Tails.9372 said:

Thief theoretically does have a way to "bring something to the table" but the issue here is A-Nets approach to game design. What is one of the main things thieves / ninjas are known for? Exactly, sneaking past things / infiltration but every major PvE content structure runs counter to this design (some story missions have it but they usually give you the tools regardless so being a thief offers no value there either) because the devs want to avoid it like the plague. It's that bad that even for content that would usually synergize well with stealth (like the story mission where you have to fight against Zafirah) they just render it useless for the lulz. There are ways to make more "selfish" classes / builds more useful even in group based content but A-Nets failure to take this into account when designing new content is what really drags thief in PvE down.

This guy gets it. ANet's overall PVE design is not designed for thieves and the motif ANet has established for them. It's silly for thief players to want to be "supportive" with boon sharing and such because that's literally not what the class was designed to do. No thief mains rolled a thief thinking hurr durr I sure hope I can heal and spam might for my allies. Most however did see that you can teleport, stealth, dual wield daggers, and dual wield pistols so you can fulfill the assassin/swashbuckler trope if you like. That's why I'm disappointed in scepter being our new weapon and hopefully it just craps out unique DPS damage so we have another fun DPS spec to play not be a kitten back up supporter. 

[RyuDragnier.9476]

57 minutes ago, Zenakou.7853 said:

This guy gets it. ANet's overall PVE design is not designed for thieves and the motif ANet has established for them. It's silly for thief players to want to be "supportive" with boon sharing and such because that's literally not what the class was designed to do. No thief mains rolled a thief thinking hurr durr I sure hope I can heal and spam might for my allies. Most however did see that you can teleport, stealth, dual wield daggers, and dual wield pistols so you can fulfill the assassin/swashbuckler trope if you like. That's why I'm disappointed in scepter being our new weapon and hopefully it just craps out unique DPS damage so we have another fun DPS spec to play not be a kitten back up supporter. 

Counterargument:

Mesmers literally were created with using Illusions/Phantasms in mind, and Virtuoso doesn't use them like the others. The mechanic itself will stock one of their Blades for their new mechanic, but the Illusions/Phantasms won't stay on the field like they once did. This proves Anet is willing to adjust the class design for elite specs, and thus a support build that adjusts stealth into something else is completely possible.

Edited October 7, 2021 by RyuDragnier.9476

[Doggie.3184]

God I hope so, cuz as a GW1 Assassin main I've never wanted stealth XD

[Psycoprophet.8107]

4 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

There was a proximity stealth/sneak in Age of Conan, but it didn't get a lot of play because it was really hard to maintain, even in maps with mostly other players and no npcs. There wasn't a lot of opportunity anyway during Sieges or in matches, only really some when on the border/open pvp maps. When I lead alliance sieges, I had to position forces to face certain directions to avoid facing the lag core of a map, and that stealth would likely not even show correctly anyway. I think it could work if there were like a 2 or 3 second residual that would wear off swiftly but not super fast, but give you a second to scoot a little if you get a surprise squad rolling over you. 

I mean likeness where u just crouch and are invisible to enemies unless in a certain radius, just ads immersion imo even if not super useful considering u can't steal or pickpocket, just a qol thing for me I guess lol.

[Keitaro Dragonheart.9047]

I can see the potential for a kind of...pseudo-support build. Scourge corrupts boons, Spellbreaker rips boons, so the new spec could focus on stealing boons and sharing them with their allies. There's also the potential for a debuffer; GW1 Assassin had many spells that focused on debuffing enemy targets. Some examples:

Siphon Speed was a skill that slowed the target and sped up the assassin.

The Elite Skill "Siphon Strength" which reduced the target's damage output while increasing the Assassin's.

Beguiling Haze, a Shadow Step Spell that inflicted Dazed on the target.

There's plenty of options, aside from pure DPS. A DPS/Support or Debuffer hybrid could be interesting. However, I'm more concerned with the implementation of whatever its going to be. Most of the Elite Specs thus far haven't been very impressive.

[Zacchary.6183]

12 hours ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

hard countered

LOL everything cleaves in this game, dude. You pretty much just claimed damage is a hard counter against evade spam.

12 hours ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

Thats because the build was bad.

How would you know? Nobody in the history of this MMO has really done any work with it save for a few thieves. I've taken this into strikes and dragon response missions dealing over 15k bleed ticks against bosses on average. The highest being 19k and that wasn't counting my poison stacks. It was able to take on two trap DH in pvp when they were fotm. And again, it lasted two days being fotm before anet nerfed the hell out of it. The only reason it could possibly be "bad" is because it effortlessly craps on purists in the right hands. It really does.

12 hours ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

You only have 1 utility that applies stealth to teammates, and its got that annoying restriction where they cant walk out of it, SR.

There is this utility called blinding powder, which was something I somewhat added on the first trait. Have you heard about it?

12 hours ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

 Pulmonary Impact, the trait that "makes interrupts even more punishing" does around 400-600 damage and as a result is COMPLETELY unplayable, and Deadeyes support gimmick is worthless.

It does 2k on full marauders, breh. I am now thoroughly convinced you do not play thief at all or are just being completely disingenuous to stifle any ideas for support that may pop up. No point in responding to the rest of your post because you seem bent on using these tactics.

Edited October 8, 2021 by Zacchary.6183

[UNOwen.7132]

57 minutes ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

LOL everything cleaves in this game, dude. You pretty much just claimed damage is a hard counter against evade spam.

Other support builds arent built around ressing as a gimmick. At most the can coincidentally do it as well. Or they have ways to ignore damage while ressing. Thief has neither of those.

 

57 minutes ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

How would you know? Nobody in the history of this MMO has really done any work with it save for a few thieves. I've taken this into strikes and dragon response missions dealing over 15k bleed ticks against bosses on average. The highest being 19k and that wasn't counting my poison stacks. It was able to take on two trap DH in pvp when they were fotm. And again, it lasted two days being fotm before anet nerfed the hell out of it. The only reason it could possibly be "bad" is because it effortlessly craps on purists in the right hands. It really does.

Because a lot of thieves tried it, and every one of them came to the same conclusion. It sucks. Also your counterargument fails on the simple case of "you messed up your timeline". What you're talking about is after Deadly Ambition. The first Strike Mission launched 2 months after that. It already was FOTM by then because it was overtuned. Before that? Worthless. 

 

57 minutes ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

There is this utility called blinding powder, which was something I somewhat added on the first trait. Have you heard about it?

Too small to reliably use it for stealthing others, but sure. Thats still 1 utility on a 60 second cooldown for minor boosts. 

 

57 minutes ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

It does 2k on full marauders, breh. I am now thoroughly convinced you do not play thief at all or are just being completely disingenuous to stifle any ideas for support that may pop up. No point in responding to the rest of your post because you seem bent on using these tactics.

No it doesn't. Unless you're talking PvE, but the issue there is that interrupting isnt worth squat and the damage to initiative ratio is pathetic. In PvP, it does 400-600 damage on full glass cannon berserker. Not that that is surprising. It has an effective damage coefficient of 0.5. And it can never crit. If what you said was true (obviously its not), that would mean that Shadowshot on Marauders should be hitting for a casual 9k on crits. It barely hits for around 3k on glass cannon.

 

But now you have made it clear that you indeed dont play thief, dont have a clue about any of the traits and are just spouting nonsense. 

[Psycoprophet.8107]

When's the thief reveal stream? Sry if it's a silly question, just don't pay attention to dates of such things lol.

[Zacchary.6183]

40 minutes ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

Because a lot of thieves tried it,

Very highly doubt it. Especially with you, because...

40 minutes ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

What you're talking about is after Deadly Ambition.

Deadly Ambition applies poison that lasts 6s with max poison duration. d/d conditions focuses mostly bleed stacks with a thick stack of poison on the side. In no way has that single trait carried the build. Deadly Ambush does more for it, but then it was a 4k boost to what it already could accomplish. 15k a second, on 10-20s long stacks still melts. You're reaching again.

40 minutes ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

But now you have made it clear that you indeed dont play thief, dont have a clue about any of the traits and are just spouting nonsense. 

But we're talking about all game modes, though, and specifically about support. Stop moving the goalposts and then projecting onto me. You've spent this entire discussion using the same set of fallacies to justify not getting support. You don't know what you are talking about and you don't play thief. You're anti-stealth post history says as much.

EDIT: And I also would like to point out: you've given zero ideas to improve anything, even back then. Barely anyone in this community does which is why I feel so inclined to do it all the kitten time. Its always discussing the same crap over and over again, defending the profession the same way on the same subject. Let's try to change the profession for once with more roles rather than cripple its growth by keeping it within its "archetype".

Edited October 8, 2021 by Zacchary.6183

[Xanhawk.3806]

1 hour ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

When's the thief reveal stream? Sry if it's a silly question, just don't pay attention to dates of such things lol.

The Tuesday before the Friday Livestream showcasing all three especs for the following Tuesday's Beta.

So Tuesday Oct 19th.  We'll get either Engi or Ranger silhouette this week.

Edited October 8, 2021 by Xanhawk.3806

[UNOwen.7132]

1 hour ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

Very highly doubt it. Especially with you, because...

Yes, I'm sure you doubt it. You don't play thief, you weren't there when thief mains were theorycrafting. You can look around, people tried to make any kind of condi build work since before HoT. It just never really worked. Dagger/Dagger saw some minor play in Open World PvE as an elite killer, but it had no other use.

 

1 hour ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

Deadly Ambition applies poison that lasts 6s with max poison duration. d/d conditions focuses mostly bleed stacks with a thick stack of poison on the side. In no way has that single trait carried the build. Deadly Ambush does more for it, but then it was a 4k boost to what it already could accomplish. 15k a second, on 10-20s long stacks still melts. You're reaching again.

Ignoring for a second that it also gives condi damage, it actually makes a huge difference. In PvE it added another couple thousand to the DPS, which pushed it into viability (as you can imagine, 28k DPS on a selfish DPS class is not viable in raids or fractals), whereas in PvP, where you're not gonna hit the full spell very often, it drastically boosted your damage, and gave you some utility. Especially since the grandmaster lets you double up on it.

 

1 hour ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

But we're talking about all game modes, though, and specifically about support. Stop moving the goalposts and then projecting onto me. You've spent this entire discussion using the same set of fallacies to justify not getting support. You don't know what you are talking about and you don't play thief. You're anti-stealth post history says as much.

EDIT: And I also would like to point out: you've given zero ideas to improve anything, even back then. Barely anyone in this community does which is why I feel so inclined to do it all the kitten time. Its always discussing the same crap over and over again, defending the profession the same way on the same subject. Let's try to change the profession for once with more roles rather than cripple its growth by keeping it within its "archetype".

And even if we talk about all gamemodes, thats still terrible. In PvE, you're doing 2k damage when autoattacking does more. Or using shadowshot. In PvP it does no damage. You're the one moving goalposts and projecting here, mate. You're the one using fallacies, you're the one who doesn't know what he is talking about and doesn't play thief. And I'm not anti-stealth, I'm just smart enough to know why stealth is overrated, and why the attempts to make it useful for support (Which we already had btw) all miserably failed.

 

Thats becuse, to be blunt, there is no way to "improve" on the idea of support thief. It fundamentally cannot work. Likewise, shadow arts did never work when it was a defensive traitline related to stealth, because that combination also doesnt work. But Shadow Arts is fine now, its a good offensive traitline in PvP. 

[Zacchary.6183]

2 minutes ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

You don't play thief, you weren't there when thief mains were theorycrafting.

There's that projecting again. Were you there when the thief community lit a fire under anet's butt and dropped thief in droves for warrior and guard? Do you even know exactly why this happened and what exactly happened afterwards? Do you remember the time where core profession runes counted as all six bonuses if the same profession slotted it? Do you know what the worst stat combination for armor was back then?

Most likely no, but I would love to hear your answers anyway.

11 minutes ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

it actually makes a huge difference.

Assuming you're using full carrion and Deadly Ambition for condi bonus (1501 total):

• Deadly Ambition deals 1,311 (934 wvw) full duration, with Potent Poison. Once per use.
• Death Blossom bleeds deals 3,362 full duration with no traits. And it affects up to 5 people now.

So no, not a huge difference. Poison in itself is good due to heal debuff, but 3s of a somewhat more powerful bleed is not better than a dual attack that inflicts 3 stacks of aoe bleed that lasts 10s. Doesn't mean you shouldn't take it however, it just isn't as necessary as you make it out to be. It definitely does not carry the build either. Most of your poison comes from your utilities anyway.

40 minutes ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

In PvE, you're doing 2k damage when autoattacking does more.

Good thing you're almost always doing both, eh? Practice thinking situationally rather than standalone. You'll find a lot of what you believe is terrible actually isn't. You could also try to be a little more productive than hyper-critical of the profession. Saying everything sucks and will never work out without providing solutions to its problems only serves to make you look like a different version of the anti-thief crowd, with less outrage and more gaslighting.

[UNOwen.7132]

4 minutes ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

There's that projecting again. Were you there when the thief community lit a fire under anet's butt and dropped thief in droves for warrior and guard? Do you even know exactly why this happened and what exactly happened afterwards? Do you remember the time where core profession runes counted as all six bonuses if the same profession slotted it? Do you know what the worst stat combination for armor was back then?

Most likely no, but I would love to hear your answers anyway.

None of those are things that happened. Thief was dropped before, yes. For Revenant. Not Guard or Warrior. Those fulfill completely different purposes, and it makes it just more clear you dont know thief. Well, in PvP. In PvE Thief was dropped for the highest DPS class, which was usually elementalist. 

 

4 minutes ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

Assuming you're using full carrion and Deadly Ambition for condi bonus (1501 total):

• Deadly Ambition deals 1,311 (934 wvw) full duration, with Potent Poison. Once per use.
• Death Blossom bleeds deals 3,362 full duration with no traits. And it affects up to 5 people now.

Ok, now consider that you won't get all hits of Death Blossom consistently. Also consider that condi cleanse exists, so the full duration rarely goes off, which benefits the shorter duration of Deadly Ambition. And then consider that you wont be hitting people with the AoE. And consider that even without all of that, youre showing that its a 33% damage increase. More even. Thats insane. The build was not viable without that 33%.

 

4 minutes ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

So no, not a huge difference. Poison in itself is good due to heal debuff, but 3s of a somewhat more powerful bleed is not better than a dual attack that inflicts 3 stacks of aoe bleed that lasts 10s. Doesn't mean you shouldn't take it however, it just isn't as necessary as you make it out to be. It definitely does not carry the build either. Most of your poison comes from your utilities anyway.

"Its 33%, but its totally not a huge difference" ??????????

Its extremely neccessary, it carries the build, and its the only reason the build end up viable. You really don't have a clue about the build and its history, mate.

 

4 minutes ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

Good thing you're almost always doing both, eh? Practice thinking situationally rather than standalone. You'll find a lot of what you believe is terrible actually isn't. You could also try to be a little more productive than hyper-critical of the profession. Saying everything sucks and will never work out without providing solutions to its problems only serves to make you look like a different version of the anti-thief crowd, with less outrage and more gaslighting.

You're not. Either youre autoattacking, or youre using initiative on a skill. And you would rather use it on shadowshot. Which isnt good. Even better is just using it on cloak and dagger for backstab. Try actually creating a thief, and trying out your character. You will find a lot of the things you believe arent terrible, actually are.

 

The problem thief has its simple. Its a DPS professions whose DPS isnt high enough to be worth it. Solution? Buff the DPS so that thief has the highest DPS. There. Done. Thats it. As for PvP, as long as Shortbow 5 exists, there is nothing to be done. Make Shortbow 5 somehow seperate from DPS builds and buff those if you can, otherwise just leave things as they are. Done. Dont however try to make support thief work. It cant. Not without removing what makes thief thief.

[Zacchary.6183]

18 minutes ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

Thief was dropped before, yes.

I like how you conveniently skipped over the other questions. So I'm going to give you one more chance to be a bit less disingenuous. What was the date the whole thief community dropped thief? (and no, rev sucked back then) :^)

Edited October 8, 2021 by Zacchary.6183

[draxynnic.3719]

On 10/7/2021 at 5:23 AM, UNOwen.7132 said:

Nope. There are 2 options. 1, make 1 initiative skill do all the supporting you need. Too easy, so Anet nerfs it out of existence. 2, require it to instead rotate several skills, creating a rigid, inflexible rotation where you just use cooldowns in sequence, negating the entire point of Initiative, and making it basically an Elementalist build given to thief for no reason. Doesnt work either. And thats the issue. Initiative and support just dont mix.

1 isn't actually as simplistic as you claim. Similar to revenant, the challenge would be in balancing use of the profession-specific resource (initiative in the case of thief) between the support effect and other things you can do with initiative. This could be combined with utilities both from the elite specialisation and from core thief (such as venoms, especially traited with Leeching Venoms).  

[UNOwen.7132]

11 hours ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

I like how you conveniently skipped over the other questions. So I'm going to give you one more chance to be a bit less disingenuous. What was the date the whole thief community dropped thief? (and no, rev sucked back then) :^)

I skipped over them because they're questions asking about things that never happened. The only time thief was dropped was because of Revenant back in HoT. That's it. You're the one being disingenious, and the fact that you doubled down on this while ignoring me dismantling all your arguments shows it quite well.

[UNOwen.7132]

7 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

1 isn't actually as simplistic as you claim. Similar to revenant, the challenge would be in balancing use of the profession-specific resource (initiative in the case of thief) between the support effect and other things you can do with initiative. This could be combined with utilities both from the elite specialisation and from core thief (such as venoms, especially traited with Leeching Venoms).  

It is, actually. Consider how much effort other classes have to put into keeping all the boons up for their party. And then you want thief to just be able to press 1 button to do it. Hell, even the "challenge" you propose wouldnt be there. You just press the button as often as you need, and whatever initiative is left you can spend, its extremely straightforward.

[Shiyo.3578]

Please be an actual elite and not a dead on arrival elite like deadeye.

[Zacchary.6183]

6 hours ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

The only time thief was dropped was because of Revenant back in HoT. That's it.

ABSOLUTELY WRONG. You skipped over them because you are fairly new to thief and you had no way to do any research on the topic. And I can make that assumption because of your disappointingly bad attempt at "theorycrafting" (Seriously? sm0l poison carries a bleed-heavy build? "thing sucks because it isn't overpowered"? Come on lol) But now you have some research material with the old forum's archive I gracefully provided (You're welcome btw), you can now actually do some some decent research and have a better understanding of thief's plight. The worst stat combination in the game back then was Power/prec/Magic Find, btw.

Go back to your ele main pls.

EDIT: Oh, and I was right about those runes, boyo.

Edited October 8, 2021 by Zacchary.6183