Why I'm against a No-Pet Spec for Ranger.

[MagicalLeaf.1307]

So, I've seen a lot of people talk about how they want the next spec to be not pet focused, and I have some issues with that.

 

If we're assuming that hammer is going to be primarily CC focused, that makes it pretty decent for break bars and such in PvE, and in order to replenish the damage which is going to be inevitably lost it makes sense that as a RANGER you have pets to deal damage for you while you hammer down enemies. 

 

2 Elite Specs where pets as companions were neglected. Druid made them weaker, Soulbeast removed them as companions. I know myself and quite a lot of people are going to be pretty dissapointed if for another spec we have pets which end up running into battle and instantly dying because we have no synergy with them. 

 

But this also makes me afraid that the pets released for End of Dragons either won't exist, or they won't be good enough to replace Smokescale or Jacaranda. 

 

I guess we'll find out this week but just some hopes which I'm going to copy paste from a few months back while speaking to friends.

- 2 Pets - PetSwap changes the Active Ability of the Pet instead of the entire pet. 

- CC based

- Tanky - Good for soloing openworld

- Good synergy in PvP - Druid nerfs, and Soulbeast barrage/trapper not being amazing right now, it would be nice to have a tankier cc based ranger.

- at least 4-5 New pets - Panda, Phoenix, White Tiger, possible new Fox/Mythical Kitsune based animal etc

 

[Obtena.7952]

I think we don't need to worry about Anet making a no-pet ranger. It's pretty absurd for anyone to think Anet will abandon THE defining feature of a class to make an espec for that same class. 

Edited October 17, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[MagicalLeaf.1307]

5 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I think we don't need to worry about Anet making a no-pet ranger. It's pretty absurd for anyone to think Anet will abandon THE defining feature of a class to make an espec for that same class. 

 

Virtuoso ;-;

[Obtena.7952]

1 minute ago, Andrej.4293 said:

Virtuoso ;-;

? I don't get your response. Virtuoso doesn't abandon the defining feature of a class to make an espec for Mesmer. 

Edited October 17, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Dadnir.5038]

I doubt the e-spec will get rid of the pet, there is to much going around the pet on the core ranger for it to disappear. Even if people say: "soulbeast does it and it work". Truth is that soulbeast is hard to balance because it work without pet (And, no, soulbeast isn't balanced atm, it's just "fixed" in a way that people keep quiet about it).

On your bucket list:

- Petswap changed: Soulbeast does that already

- CC based: Druid does that already

- Tanky: Soulbeast have the options to be one of the tankiest thing in game, you just need to merge with a stout pet.

- Good synergy in PvP can't go along with "pet focused e-spec" because as soon as pets start to be good in sPvP people will want it nerfed.

- 4-5 new pet: That's probably a given. Thought, Panda is a bear and bears in gw2 are disappointing. Another feline with white tiger? What would it do? At this point there isn't much left to add to the felines which are the "better" base pets. So far, there is no fox in cantha lore but mythical pets would probably be: Turtle, Dragon, Phoenix and Kirin (knowing how they said they worked hard on "turtles taxi", I wouldn't be surprise to see them as a pet).

 

What the devs haven't done yet:

- Replacing the F2 skill

- A dodge spec (not really original at this point but that fit the ranger thematic)

- A spec use it's pet as a pool of blood to fuel blood spells (I've played a profession that does that in another game, it's... interesting)

- An e-spec with a spec specific pet list, losing access to the regular pet list (but not having to tame their pets).

I hope the devs tried at least one of those possibilities.

[Sarision.6347]

It will get nerfed sometime down the road because of the pet.

[aymnad.9023]

3 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I doubt the e-spec will get rid of the pet, there is to much going around the pet on the core ranger for it to disappear. Even if people say: "soulbeast does it and it work". Truth is that soulbeast is hard to balance because it work without pet (And, no, soulbeast isn't balanced atm, it's just "fixed" in a way that people keep quiet about it).

On your bucket list:

- Petswap changed: Soulbeast does that already

- CC based: Druid does that already

- Tanky: Soulbeast have the options to be one of the tankiest thing in game, you just need to merge with a stout pet.

- Good synergy in PvP can't go along with "pet focused e-spec" because as soon as pets start to be good in sPvP people will want it nerfed.

- 4-5 new pet: That's probably a given. Thought, Panda is a bear and bears in gw2 are disappointing. Another feline with white tiger? What would it do? At this point there isn't much left to add to the felines which are the "better" base pets. So far, there is no fox in cantha lore but mythical pets would probably be: Turtle, Dragon, Phoenix and Kirin (knowing how they said they worked hard on "turtles taxi", I wouldn't be surprise to see them as a pet).

 

What the devs haven't done yet:

- Replacing the F2 skill

- A dodge spec (not really original at this point but that fit the ranger thematic)

- A spec use it's pet as a pool of blood to fuel blood spells (I've played a profession that does that in another game, it's... interesting)

- An e-spec with a spec specific pet list, losing access to the regular pet list (but not having to tame their pets).

I hope the devs tried at least one of those possibilities.

They can still toy a bit with the pet swap. Slightly before the removal of soulbeast pet swap (which made it way less interesting / fun to play) I suggested to add an animation / cast time to the pet swap so you can interrupt it and / or add a pet %heal for each Xs spend in beastmode.

Edited October 17, 2021 by aymnad.9023

[aymnad.9023]

I agree with op. I would love a spec that plays with the pet or even reworks it into some support mechanic as some people suggested in some other topics or changes the way you control / interact with it. Wait and see.

edit : I still hope for some magic / support skills even with the hammer around 🙂

Edited October 17, 2021 by aymnad.9023

[anduriell.6280]

And we are still talking about this. I do understand the thoughts of the players who want a more pet dependent ranger, because when you pick the class it is because of the pet mechanic. 

But ranger is played in more modes than just pve openworld, and let’s be honest no elite should be designed about openworld were anything works to an extent

 

in any case you should be asking for the Core ranger to become the ranger 2.0 you are asking as new elite.

5 hours ago, Andrej.4293 said:

 it makes sense that as a RANGER you have pets to deal damage for you while you hammer down enemies. 

Yes that will be funny, if the hammer is mostly CC and the pet do the damage it would be a Druid 2.0, and you already know how neglected that elite is. I can see the whining in the pvp forums or because the elite is unkillable or because it totally useless

 

5 hours ago, Andrej.4293 said:

…, Soulbeast removed them as companions…..into battle and instantly dying because we have no synergy with them. 

Soulbeast fixed the issue with pets insta-dying. Unfortunately the rest of the kit simply doesn’t work for team play.

5 hours ago, Andrej.4293 said:

- 2 Pets - PetSwap changes the Active Ability of the Pet instead of the entire pet. 
 

Nobody needs more pets in the game. Also if they would be they would be nerfed to have half the stats. Think about how the hiena works. So that.

5 hours ago, Andrej.4293 said:

- CC based

- Tanky - Good for soloing openworld

Soulbeast is plenty good for open world.

 

5 hours ago, Andrej.4293 said:

- Good synergy in PvP - Druid nerfs, and Soulbeast barrage/trapper not being amazing right now, it would be nice to have a tankier cc based ranger.

Pets do not work in PvP or WvW. You should know that. If you don’t I am telling you. And if a pet by any miracle remotely works the pet is nerfed until it doesn’t. Check bristle back as reference.

5 hours ago, Andrej.4293 said:

- at least 4-5 New pets - Panda, Phoenix, White Tiger, possible new Fox/Mythical Kitsune based animal etc

 

You definitely can count with new pets every expansion. We don’t know which ones but I am fairly sure a bunny will be thrown in there as a wink to the bunny trumper

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

9 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I think we don't need to worry about Anet making a no-pet ranger. It's pretty absurd for anyone to think Anet will abandon THE defining feature of a class to make an espec for that same class. 

Weapon swapping on Bladesworn, Death Shroud on Scourge, Toolbelt and kit penalties on Holo, Virtuoso clones. Dunno, it doesn't seem all that absurd to have a petless Ranger. Unless they dramatically improve the pets (which they won't due to PvP balance), then another spec with pet as is will be crap since the pet will die all too often in large scale combat.

[Xenash.1245]

Doubt it would fit with the theme of the region, but I'd personally enjoy having dolyak's added to the ranger pet list.

[Infusion.7149]

"Glad I have a pet": said no WVW-er ever.

If it's a pet spec the pet needs to be able to stealth/stow on push otherwise you get a spec worse than soulbeast.

[Draeyon.4392]

Can we have an AoE cap on pets in competitive modes? That would actually help pets in PvP and WvW.

 

As it relates to a pet espec, tou would need a lot more than the current 4 buttons to actually make pets somewhat useful as the ai is god awful.

 

Also, any half decent pet gets nerfed like andruiell said. They have nerfed the Smokescale damage 4 times since it's been released.

According to the devs, ranger pets are not allowed to do damage.

 

So buff pet damage across the board, program their ai better (or give us more buttons to command them with), and reduce the aoe damage in competitive modes and sure, a pet e-spec will work.

[Sarision.6347]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

"Glad I have a pet": said no WVW-er ever.

If it's a pet spec the pet needs to be able to stealth/stow on push otherwise you get a spec worse than soulbeast.

I still don't understand why they don't make the basic pet stow permanent.

[Xenash.1245]

1 hour ago, Draeyon.4392 said:

Can we have an AoE cap on pets in competitive modes? That would actually help pets in PvP and WvW.

 

As it relates to a pet espec, tou would need a lot more than the current 4 buttons to actually make pets somewhat useful as the ai is god awful.

 

Also, any half decent pet gets nerfed like andruiell said. They have nerfed the Smokescale damage 4 times since it's been released.

According to the devs, ranger pets are not allowed to do damage.

 

So buff pet damage across the board, program their ai better (or give us more buttons to command them with), and reduce the aoe damage in competitive modes and sure, a pet e-spec will work.

Yeah every time in the entire history of WvW whenever a pet has done enough to get noticed instead of completely ignored, it's been hit hard by the nerf bat. So we really are in this odd state of wanting the pets to do more but between a combination of bad ai and the devs seemingly not wanting them to much, it's a bit of an awkward situation to be in.

 

That being said that's also not me saying any given pet didn't deserve to be nerfed, just that I'd like for things to not swing so hard in any given direction.

[Arheundel.6451]

The only people asking for a pet elite are open world pvers and roleplayers....places where what you run matter very little if at all. As it has been stated hundreds of time already, any "dps" pet gets obliterated by nerfs due to a combination of whining and entitled community....and devs far too eager to please...

 

It is a miracle really to have the smokescale, most ranger builds would not work without that single pet, the few other playable pets are barely available in specific situations, generally the pets are so nerfed dps/utility wise that a ranger can kitten himself while using what's supposed to be core mechanic

 

We seen pets being nerfed 4 even 5 times (bristleback-smokescale) , other being made utterly useless (bird dps so low now....that glassiness is not justified) and other are so slow(cats -drakes) that only ...urgh.."some players" get hit by it consistently.

 

We need something that actually works in all game modes like soulbeast..but differently and efficiently. We seen already what happened to "pet specs" , druid would like a word with the OP.....

 

Ranger was originally petless in GW1 with choice of using one or not

[Dadnir.5038]

41 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

We need something that actually works in all game modes like soulbeast..but differently and efficiently. We seen already what happened to "pet specs" , druid would like a word with the OP.....

Druid isn't a "pet spec", it's a spec that happen to inherit the ranger pet.

I think a "pet spec" can happen but not with the common pet list and most important, not with the pet as a main source of damage. The pets would need to be thoroughly useless as a source of damage but be good utility-wise and be nigh unkillable while suceptible to hard CC (In other word, the e-spec pets would need to be moving nature spirits with an AA that hit at clone level of damage, no automatic skill that would deal damage and with the determined buff that you find on some NPC).

Whisp skills (I'm taking melandru avatar as source of inspiration and call them whisp to avoid confusion with regular nature spirits):

- AA: Swipe: cleave (coeff: 0.001, target 3, range 250)

- Skill#2: Cleansing breeze: Remove conditions from allies (5 targets, range 600, 10s CD)

- Skill#3: Forest enmity: Slow foes (5 targets, range 600, 15s CD)

List of Whisp and F2:

- Bramble whisp: Bramble signet: passively grant the "bramble venom" effect every few seconds which allow the next hard CC to also apply bleed. (Non traited: only grant this effect to the ranger. Traited: grant this effect to up to 5 allies within 600 range)

-> active effect: entangle nearby foes with root that bleed and immobilize them for 4s. (5 targets, 360 radius, 30s CD)

- Whisp of tranquility: Signet of tranquility: passively grant the "tranquility venom" effect every few seconds which allow the next hard CC to also remove a boon. (Non traited: only grant this effect to the ranger. Traited: grant this effect to up to 5 allies within 600 range)

-> active effect: Shine with a gentle light that remove up to 3 boons per foes (5 targets, 360 radius, 30s CD)

- Winowing whisp: Winowing signet: passively grant the "winowing venom" effect every few seconds which allow the next hard CC to summon an illusory root to pierce your foe dealing some damage to your foe. (Non traited: only grant this effect to the ranger. Traited: grant this effect to up to 5 allies within 600 range)

-> active effect: Roots strike up to 5 foes within range every seconds for 5 seconds (5 targets, 360 radius, 30s CD)

- Infuriating whips: Infuriating signet: passively grant the "infuriating venom" effect every few seconds which allow the next hard CC to slow and weaken your foe. (Non traited: only grant this effect to the ranger. Traited: grant this effect to up to 5 allies within 600 range)

-> active effect: Grant alacrity (3s) and quickness (3s) on up to 5 allies within range. (5 target, 360 radius, 30s CD)

GM traits:

1- Reduce interval at which you gain your whisp's signet effect by 50%. You steal life whenever you land a hard CC.

2- Your whisp now apply it's signet effect on up to 5 allies within range but the interval are 50% longer.

3- Using the active effect of your whisp signet grant you 7 charge of "asp venom" that make your next attack poison your foes.

 

Minor trait:

2- Gain might whenever you apply a venom effect. ICD 1s.

3- Transfer a condition whenever you apply a venom effect. ICD 10s.

[Arheundel.6451]

40 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Druid isn't a "pet spec", it's a spec that happen to inherit the ranger pet.

I think a "pet spec" can happen but not with the common pet list and most important, not with the pet as a main source of damage. The pets would need to be thoroughly useless as a source of damage but be good utility-wise and be nigh unkillable while suceptible to hard CC (In other word, the e-spec pets would need to be moving nature spirits with an AA that hit at clone level of damage, no automatic skill that would deal damage and with the determined buff that you find on some NPC).

Whisp skills (I'm taking melandru avatar as source of inspiration and call them whisp to avoid confusion with regular nature spirits😞

- AA: Swipe: cleave (coeff: 0.001, target 3, range 250)

- Skill#2: Cleansing breeze: Remove conditions from allies (5 targets, range 600, 10s CD)

- Skill#3: Forest enmity: Slow foes (5 targets, range 600, 15s CD)

List of Whisp and F2:

- Bramble whisp: Bramble signet: passively grant the "bramble venom" effect every few seconds which allow the next hard CC to also apply bleed. (Non traited: only grant this effect to the ranger. Traited: grant this effect to up to 5 allies within 600 range)

-> active effect: entangle nearby foes with root that bleed and immobilize them for 4s. (5 targets, 360 radius, 30s CD)

- Whisp of tranquility: Signet of tranquility: passively grant the "tranquility venom" effect every few seconds which allow the next hard CC to also remove a boon. (Non traited: only grant this effect to the ranger. Traited: grant this effect to up to 5 allies within 600 range)

-> active effect: Shine with a gentle light that remove up to 3 boons per foes (5 targets, 360 radius, 30s CD)

- Winowing whisp: Winowing signet: passively grant the "winowing venom" effect every few seconds which allow the next hard CC to summon an illusory root to pierce your foe dealing some damage to your foe. (Non traited: only grant this effect to the ranger. Traited: grant this effect to up to 5 allies within 600 range)

-> active effect: Roots strike up to 5 foes within range every seconds for 5 seconds (5 targets, 360 radius, 30s CD)

- Infuriating whips: Infuriating signet: passively grant the "infuriating venom" effect every few seconds which allow the next hard CC to slow and weaken your foe. (Non traited: only grant this effect to the ranger. Traited: grant this effect to up to 5 allies within 600 range)

-> active effect: Grant alacrity (3s) and quickness (3s) on up to 5 allies within range. (5 target, 360 radius, 30s CD)

GM traits:

1- Reduce interval at which you gain your whisp's signet effect by 50%. You steal life whenever you land a hard CC.

2- Your whisp now apply it's signet effect on up to 5 allies within range but the interval are 50% longer.

3- Using the active effect of your whisp signet grant you 7 charge of "asp venom" that make your next attack poison your foes.

 

Minor trait:

2- Gain might whenever you apply a venom effect. ICD 1s.

3- Transfer a condition whenever you apply a venom effect. ICD 10s.

A single effect/condition every 30s requiring hard CC on top? At melee range with traits literally offering no extra sustain?...I'd rather play an e-spec with super nerfed pet mechanic, it'd be more useful and playable than what you're proposing

Are we playing the same game?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scrapper

Just read what the wells do.....nobody sane of mind would play or even consider bringing something as bad as you suggest....a single boon removed every 30s with hard CC....lol yeah sure, even at 15s cutted CD, your typicall wvw spec for zerg can gain up to 10 boons and the average AoE CC on average 20s CD..........like who are you kidding now?

Edited October 18, 2021 by Arheundel.6451

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

A single effect/condition every 30s requiring hard CC on top? At melee range with traits literally offering no extra sustain?...I'd rather play an e-spec with super nerfed pet mechanic, it'd be more useful and playable than what you're proposing

Are we playing the same game?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scrapper

Just read what the wells do.....nobody sane of mind would play or even consider bringing something as bad as you suggest....a single boon removed every 30s with hard CC....lol yeah sure, even at 15s cutted CD, your typicall wvw spec for zerg can gain up to 10 boons and the average AoE CC on average 20s CD..........like who are you kidding now?

You didn't understand.

There is a passive effect like a nature spirit that passively grant you a buff, let's say, every 8s untraited (4s traited with GM1; 12s traited with GM2) and there is an effect when you blow the skill that would thus lock you out of the passive. 

The GMs offer 3 gameplay, 1 selfish where you focus on passive and expect to use a lot of hard CC, 1 altruist where you share the passive and 1 selfish again where you focus on the active part of the skill, more or less ignoring the "CC" part.

[anduriell.6280]

20 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

You didn't understand.

There is a passive effect like a nature spirit that passively grant you a buff, let's say, every 8s untraited (4s traited with GM1; 12s traited with GM2) and there is an effect when you blow the skill that would thus lock you out of the passive. 

The GMs offer 3 gameplay, 1 selfish where you focus on passive and expect to use a lot of hard CC, 1 altruist where you share the passive and 1 selfish again where you focus on the active part of the skill, more or less ignoring the "CC" part.

No, Companion mechanics are mechanics which allow the ranger to have 2 separate sources of effects with different stats. 

Which means Pets should provide DPS as well. Another point is if the focus should be AI controlled damage like it is now or should be shifted to player controlled damage (like i suggest in the below thread) while the AI still keeps some low damage an automated easy tasks (like autos and close-gap abilities). 

 

Core Ranger has the companion mechanic and that should be fine, Core should be the beastmastery "elite spec" all this players are asking for. It is fine for addtional elites to deppend less and less onto the pet so it brings back that feel of GW1  . 

 

Passive buffs are in general boring and without other mechanic it really does nothing for the class (spirits healthbars and vulnerabilities to CC are an example of passive buffs with caveats). If it would be me i would even give the spirits stats aside the ranger so their active  effects would be somehow separated from the player chosen stats. 

I would even change the traps, so ranger traps uses animals and have an HP associated to them. 

 

That is the most differenciating mechanic about the ranger over other minion classes like mesmer or necro. So ranger should apply the "companion mechanic" to every aspect of the profession instead chipping out  that unique design like Anet has been doing for years. 

 

About pets.... 

 

[Obtena.7952]

11 hours ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

Weapon swapping on Bladesworn, Death Shroud on Scourge, Toolbelt and kit penalties on Holo, Virtuoso clones. Dunno, it doesn't seem all that absurd to have a petless Ranger. Unless they dramatically improve the pets (which they won't due to PvP balance), then another spec with pet as is will be crap since the pet will die all too often in large scale combat.

Those things don't abandon the theme of the class. Petless Ranger does. 

I don't get the request though ... Soulbeast isn't 'petless' enough?

Edited October 18, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Obtena.7952]

6 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

The only people asking for a pet elite are open world pvers and roleplayers....places where what you run matter very little if at all. As it has been stated hundreds of time already, any "dps" pet gets obliterated by nerfs due to a combination of whining and entitled community....and devs far too eager to please...

This kind of statement makes no sense ... no one is 'asking' for a pet. It's already part of the class definition because Anet made it that way. It has nothing to do with what players 'asked' for or what category of player you want to associate with pets. No wonder you don't understand the class. 

PS. It was really cute to associate your dislike of pets to the players whose opinion you don't consider important. I bet Anet will never catch on to that 🙄

Edited October 18, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Arheundel.6451]

27 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

This kind of statement makes no sense ... no one is 'asking' for a pet. It's already part of the class definition because Anet made it that way. It has nothing to do with what players 'asked' for or what category of player you want to associate with pets. No wonder you don't understand the class. 

PS. It was really cute to associate your dislike of pets to the players whose opinion you don't consider important. I bet Anet will never catch on to that 🙄

You jump from subforum to subforum trying to lecture people about subjects....you think to know about, in the end you're just a necro main from what I could gather, trying to trigger people into having a pointless and childish discussion with you....this is amusing to say  the least

Edited October 18, 2021 by Arheundel.6451

[Obtena.7952]

11 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

....this is amusing to say the least

Amusing you avoided the questions I asked you relevant to the topic? I agree ... a big HAR HAR. I don't see what this has to do with the topic, so let's get back to it then. 

Again, why is Soulbeast not enough 'pet-less' Ranger for you? What makes you think insulting players 'asking' for things that are already standard parts of the class concept will get Anet to abandon their class concept and remove pets for the next espec? 

Edited October 18, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Arheundel.6451]

12 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Oh it's going to happen ... it just did. I don't see what this has to do with the topic. Again, why is Soulbeast not enough 'petless' for you? What makes you think insulting players 'asking' for things will get you highly unlikely pet removal for the next espec? 

PvErs and roleplayers play in an environment where what you do or play doesn't matter much if at all regarding to other players, you can run skills with 5s casting time and nothing would change...PvPers don't have that luxury, there is nothing offensive about the truth...it's childish to think otherwise, but go on and report me if it makes you feel better...I don't see how that would detract anything from the truth.

Also, nobody serious here on this forum speaks with the illusion that Anet does what they say, a company will do what necessary to survive, they will release something that can be exposed to as many players as possible...regardless of what is being said here.

Here we're talking about preferences......imagine trying to win an argument..like you win something in the end..even more over the internet...amusing as I have stated.

Edited October 18, 2021 by Arheundel.6451