Untamed seems to miss the mark of being squad viable.

[anduriell.6280]

I will go forward to the point of the misses about the untamed i can already see by the stream: 

Pet health.

Peth health is too low in most pets in PvP and WvW. Canines are on 16k, birds don't reach 10K. Although those numbers may be fine in an small setting like is PVP, they are not good in WvW. In WvW pets need the PvE stat set at least, inlcuding the HP.

I find deceiving the pets showing PvE stats in this kind of streams. 

 

Perilous gift

That skill  is an easy way to get killed in PVP/WVW and a very bad idea in PvE. Current pets HP will not allow to get any use from that cantrip as pets will soack the damage even before being able to do the transference. So this skill derives from the problems caused by the point above, the lack of actual pet balancing and fixing. 

 

Ferocious Symbiosis

Is that up +25% speed boost cumulative with current speed or is it like other movement speed buff which do not stack? If i am using runes of the speed will the untamed move at superspeed with this buff? 

If the answer is the buff does not stack the buff is not relevant or necesary and attack speed would be simply better. 

 

Natural Fortitude

Indepently of the hp baseline buff in WvW, Is this trait will also change the pet stats? OR is it only for the untamed? If it only impacts the player, Does that even makes sense in this elite?

 

Traits than only work on the untamed

Plenty of traits in the untamed traitline seems only to work on the player and not the pet. Does that makes sense on the untamed? Should not those traits to actually work on pets the same way? 

For example: Restorative strikes should also heal the pet by a 10% of the strike damage it does. 

Otherwise what is even the point of using untamed skills and even traits. 

 

 

Forest Fortification and Cantrips don-t seem to work on the pets

Same as with traits does this effect  buff is also applied to the pet?  Is the cleanses from the cantrip Mutate Conditions also impact the equipped pet? While those issues aren't addressed no pet centric elite will work. 

 

Lack of condi cleanses

I guess using Restorative strikes could improve the condi cleanse but one full condi cleanse every 30 seconds it is not enough in current state with the condi spam. New elites will even bring more condition spam. The additonal condi cleanse from Cleansing unleash every 10s is evident it is simply not enough. 

 

Expected results if this is not addressed

All this will make untamed to become nothing more than a core ranger with blinking pets. 

Traitlines will be still locked into WS & BM for the condi cleanses and the pet extra  speed and HP because otherwise the pets can not keep up with enviromental trash mobs. 

Weapons will stay locked into  LB and maybe hammer if it can land damage, otherwise it will be GS because the lacks of real bruiser heal and damage mitigation outside from the 90s elite skill so the untamed will not be able to stay in melee and instead will have to keep kitting. 

 

 

At this point Soulbeast is simply better. Even Core seems to be better becasue you will be able to take at least one offensive traitline. 

 

Edited October 22, 2021 by anduriell.6280

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

FWIW, it's the beta, I doubt any of the especs will remain unchanged between now and release.

[Arheundel.6451]

27 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

I will go forward to the point of the misses about the untamed i can already see by the stream: 

Pet health.

Peth health is too low in most pets in PvP and WvW. Canines are on 16k, birds don't reach 10K. Although those numbers may be fine in an small setting like is PVP, they are not good in WvW. In WvW pets need the PvE stat set at least, inlcuding the HP.

I find deceiving the pets showing PvE stats in this kind of streams. 

 

Perilous gift

That skill  is an easy way to get killed in PVP/WVW and a very bad idea in PvE. Current pets HP will not allow to get any use from that cantrip as pets will soack the damage even before being able to do the transference. So this skill derives from the problems caused by the point above, the lack of actual pet balancing and fixing. 

 

Ferocious Symbiosis

Is that up +25% speed boost cumulative with current speed or is it like other movement speed buff which do not stack? If i am using runes of the speed will the untamed move at superspeed with this buff? 

If the answer is the buff does not stack the buff is not relevant or necesary and attack speed would be simply better. 

 

Natural Fortitude

Indepently of the hp baseline buff in WvW, Is this trait will also change the pet stats? OR is it only for the untamed? If it only impacts the player, Does that even makes sense in this elite?

 

Traits than only work on the untamed

Plenty of traits in the untamed traitline seems only to work on the player and not the pet. Does that makes sense on the untamed? Should not those traits to actually work on pets the same way? 

For example: Restorative strikes should also heal the pet by a 10% of the strike damage it does. 

Otherwise what is even the point of using untamed skills and even traits. 

 

 

Forest Fortification and Cantrips don-t seem to work on the pets

Same as with traits does this effect  buff is also applied to the pet?  Is the cleanses from the cantrip Mutate Conditions also impact the equipped pet? While those issues aren't addressed no pet centric elite will work. 

 

Lack of condi cleanses

I guess using Restorative strikes could improve the condi cleanse but one full condi cleanse every 30 seconds it is not enough in current state with the condi spam. New elites will even bring more condition spam. The additonal condi cleanse from Cleansing unleash every 10s is evident it is simply not enough. 

 

Expected results if this is not addressed

All this will make untamed to become nothing more than a core ranger with blinking pets. 

Traitlines will be still locked into WS & BM for the condi cleanses and the pet extra  speed and HP because otherwise the pets can not keep up with enviromental trash mobs. 

Weapons will stay locked into  LB and maybe hammer if it can land damage, otherwise it will be GS because the lacks of real bruiser heal and damage mitigation outside from the 90s elite skill so the untamed will not be able to stay in melee and instead will have to keep kitting. 

 

 

At this point Soulbeast is simply better. Even Core seems to be better becasue you will be able to take at least one offensive traitline. 

 

1) Pet Health- We just use different pets accordingly, bears and dragons for wvw pushes, all pets get same unleashed attacks, so..no problem for me

2) Perilous gift - See point 1

3) Lack of condi cleanse - hmm no..you can still run survival skills on top of the full condi clear every 30s, also during team fight you won't be the only one pushing, your allies will still clear condis for you...there is really no issue here, that utility alone will be great for initial push

The rest, I can work around it. Overall this last round of elite restored my faith in the company...in good portion, enough to now pre-order the game.

Untamed may not be the perfect scenario that most players wished for but it is also much better than worst case scenario, design wise it's solid, the concept idea behind it , works and it makes sense, we have an identity which is the most importan aspect for an elite to at work decently.

The rest can be added, modified later;  as a ranger main I am very happy for the moment, luckily this was not another catalyst 

Remember guys....there are specs like willbender and catalyst.....we should consider ourselves lucky that Untamed needs only small changes on top of number changes...instead than requiring a complete re-design like those 2 elites

Edited October 22, 2021 by Arheundel.6451

[Levetty.1279]

47 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

FWIW, it's the beta, I doubt any of the especs will remain unchanged between now and release.

True but you have to give feedback for that to happen.

[mistsim.2748]

Just use beefier pets for zerging then. Makes sense right? Not saying others don't need work/buffs, but we have enough. I'm not one to have rose tinted glasses on when it comes to ANet, but I think you're harshing on the spec too much and don't see the full potential.

Overall I'm happy with and surprised by the overall excellent design of this e-spec.

Edited October 22, 2021 by mistsim.2748

[anduriell.6280]

31 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

1) Pet Health- We just use different pets accordingly, bears and dragons for wvw pushes, all pets get same unleashed attacks, so..no problem for me

Aren’t bears like 18k in WvW? It will melt in WvW pushes. I am not sure right now but I remember pets melt by random conditions in WvW. 

 

Quote

3) Lack of condi cleanse - hmm no..you can still run survival skills on top of the full condi clear 

The point was to stop using that traitline mandatory in any other build.

 

Quote

Remember guys....there are specs like willbender and catalyst.....

We  haven’t seen the skills or traits in WvW, many of them had the “this skill is different in each game mode”.

Willbender and catalist at least looked good in the showcase. This one not only loos like a core ranger 2.0 but I can already see glaring flaws.

I wasn’t wrong with the Druid and soulbeast. I am not wrong to think  this one will be relegated to be played like a core with blinking pets.

 

3 minutes ago, mistsim.2748 said:

Just use beefier pets for zerging then. Makes sense right? Not saying others don't need work/buffs, but we have enough. 

Overall I'm happy with and surprised by the overall excellent design of this e-spec.

beefier pets are still too weak with Hp doesn’t go over 20k Hp melt in WvW setting. Remember pets in pvp / WvW have 50% stats  of the pve version. 

Edited October 22, 2021 by anduriell.6280

[mistsim.2748]

1 minute ago, anduriell.6280 said:

Remember pets in pvp / WvW have 50% stats  of the pve version. 

Bears have Defy Pain. I thought you played ranger a lot?

[anduriell.6280]

2 minutes ago, mistsim.2748 said:

Bears have Defy Pain. I thought you played ranger a lot?

Defy pain is not affected by condition damage, you clearly don’t play with ranger. I see random comments from you saying stuff like this which makes me think  you are just trolling in the ranger subforums

Edited October 22, 2021 by anduriell.6280

[Swagger.1459]

1 hour ago, anduriell.6280 said:

I will go forward to the point of the misses about the untamed i can already see by the stream: 

Pet health.

Peth health is too low in most pets in PvP and WvW. Canines are on 16k, birds don't reach 10K. Although those numbers may be fine in an small setting like is PVP, they are not good in WvW. In WvW pets need the PvE stat set at least, inlcuding the HP.

I find deceiving the pets showing PvE stats in this kind of streams. 

 

Perilous gift

That skill  is an easy way to get killed in PVP/WVW and a very bad idea in PvE. Current pets HP will not allow to get any use from that cantrip as pets will soack the damage even before being able to do the transference. So this skill derives from the problems caused by the point above, the lack of actual pet balancing and fixing. 

 

Ferocious Symbiosis

Is that up +25% speed boost cumulative with current speed or is it like other movement speed buff which do not stack? If i am using runes of the speed will the untamed move at superspeed with this buff? 

If the answer is the buff does not stack the buff is not relevant or necesary and attack speed would be simply better. 

 

Natural Fortitude

Indepently of the hp baseline buff in WvW, Is this trait will also change the pet stats? OR is it only for the untamed? If it only impacts the player, Does that even makes sense in this elite?

 

Traits than only work on the untamed

Plenty of traits in the untamed traitline seems only to work on the player and not the pet. Does that makes sense on the untamed? Should not those traits to actually work on pets the same way? 

For example: Restorative strikes should also heal the pet by a 10% of the strike damage it does. 

Otherwise what is even the point of using untamed skills and even traits. 

 

 

Forest Fortification and Cantrips don-t seem to work on the pets

Same as with traits does this effect  buff is also applied to the pet?  Is the cleanses from the cantrip Mutate Conditions also impact the equipped pet? While those issues aren't addressed no pet centric elite will work. 

 

Lack of condi cleanses

I guess using Restorative strikes could improve the condi cleanse but one full condi cleanse every 30 seconds it is not enough in current state with the condi spam. New elites will even bring more condition spam. The additonal condi cleanse from Cleansing unleash every 10s is evident it is simply not enough. 

 

Expected results if this is not addressed

All this will make untamed to become nothing more than a core ranger with blinking pets. 

Traitlines will be still locked into WS & BM for the condi cleanses and the pet extra  speed and HP because otherwise the pets can not keep up with enviromental trash mobs. 

Weapons will stay locked into  LB and maybe hammer if it can land damage, otherwise it will be GS because the lacks of real bruiser heal and damage mitigation outside from the 90s elite skill so the untamed will not be able to stay in melee and instead will have to keep kitting. 

 

 

At this point Soulbeast is simply better. Even Core seems to be better becasue you will be able to take at least one offensive traitline. 

 

Kinda cute how you think this spec will be good for wvw squads, when a Staff Necro and Hammer Rev will still be better, more survivable, and more impactful options than some front line melee AoEer that will eat all the damage and get like 2 hits in. 

 

And don't bother with pets, you can give em 100k hp and their contribution will be meaningless, they will still die against the 100 AoE littered across the field. 

Edited October 22, 2021 by Swagger.1459

[Arheundel.6451]

3 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

Aren’t bears like 18k in WvW? It will melt in WvW pushes.

 

The point was to stop using that traitline mandatory in any other build.

 

We  haven’t seen the skills or traits in WvW, many of them had the “this skill is different in each game mode”.

Willbender and catalist at least looked good in the showcase. This one not only loos like a core ranger 2.0 but I can already see glaring flaws.

I wasn’t wrong with the Druid and soulbeast. I am not wrong to think  this one will be relegated to be played like a core with blinking pets.

 

beefier pets are still too weak with Hp doesn’t go over 20k Hp melt in WvW setting. Remember pets in pvp / WvW have 50% stats  of the pve version. 

Bears have 30k HP, drakes and moa 23k HP , bears have endure pain, moa have the heal and you can still use the jacaranda which is ranged pet and this time refrain from using the melee attack as you fully control the pet, the call lightning is 1200 range..not even need to engage with jacaranda, push with hammer while the pet unlease hell from distance

[anduriell.6280]

Just now, Arheundel.6451 said:

Bears have 30k HP, drakes and moa 23k HP , bears have endure pain, moa have the heal and you can still use the jacaranda which is ranged pet and this time refrain from using the melee attack as you fully control the pet, the call lightning is 1200 range..not even need to engage with jacaranda, push with hammer while the pet unlease hell from distance

Moas with the 6k heal are in better position than bears, defy pain does not work on condis. Yet those pets will be destroyed.

You don’t need to engage, having the pet in passive around you will get it killed just with the AoEs. If as Druid you can not keep it alive even with all the healing it brings, untamed will not be any better.

 

But you will see next Tuesday. 

[mistsim.2748]

Just now, anduriell.6280 said:

Defy pain is not affected by condition damage, you clearly don’t play with ranger. I see random comments from saying stuff like this.

Who cares about condition damage, that's not what you die to on pushes in WvW. Conditions are only a problem in duels.  

[mistsim.2748]

11 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

 

Double post

Edited October 22, 2021 by mistsim.2748

[mistsim.2748]

15 minutes ago, Swagger.1459 said:

Kinda cute how you think this spec will be good for wvw squads, when a Staff Necro and Hammer Rev will still be better, more survivable, and more impactful options than some front line melee AoEer that will eat all the damage and get like 2 hits in. 

 

And don't bother with pets, you can give em 100k hp and their contribution will be meaningless, they will still die against the 100 AoE littered across the field. 

What's a "staff necro", and why are you stepping on the red circles on the pushes ? 

[Downstate.4697]

Unleashed needs reactions with other weapons and not just hammer.  You can play frontline without a pet if the unleashed part was fleshed out to be more flexible for builds.

[Khenzy.9348]

If pets still have nerfed stats in WvW, take full AoE damage (unlike PvE) and the penalty to swaping death pets is as extremely harsh as it is right now, this spec is not ever going to be viable in WvW squad/zerg fights. Period. 

 

Not even mentioning all the other unresponsiveness and pathing issues that come with the AI, even with a shadowstep on F1.

 

I don't even see Untamed as a better roamer than Soulbeast either.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Khenzy.9348

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

2 hours ago, mistsim.2748 said:

What's a "staff necro", and why are you stepping on the red circles on the pushes ? 

The people you're pushing against don't drop them at your feet? 

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

55 minutes ago, Khenzy.9348 said:

If pets still have nerfed stats in WvW, take full AoE damage (unlike PvE) and the penalty to swaping death pets is as extremely harsh as it is right now, this spec is not ever going to be viable in WvW squad/zerg fights. Period. 

 

Not even mentioning all the other unresponsiveness and pathing issues that come with the AI, even with a shadowstep on F1.

 

I don't even see Untamed as a better roamer than Soulbeast either.

This.

And that pet death penalty combined with that heal skill... LOL WTF

While you have no clones, you cannot use your heal skill. While you have no adrenaline, you cannot use your heal skill.  While you have no Life Force, you cannot use your heal skill. While your virtues are on CD, you cannot use your heal skill. If you have no initiative or steal is on CD, you cannot use your heal skill.

For one whole minute.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582
spelling

[nerva.7940]

2 hours ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

Unleashed needs reactions with other weapons and not just hammer. 

Go GS/Hammer. Use GS for the Swoop, Maul nuke, and block. Hammer for the class mechanic. 

Edited October 23, 2021 by nerva.7940

[nerva.7940]

Why don't you micro your pet out of the red circles with the blink ability? Also just use tougher pets, like bears. Will know Tuesday for sure if this is viable. 

Edited October 23, 2021 by nerva.7940

[wolfyrik.2017]

11 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

FWIW, it's the beta, I doubt any of the especs will remain unchanged between now and release.

Then you weren't playing or paying attention when HoT released. All of the especs which had problems identifed by players, kept those problems on launch. There's been very little change historically between preview and launch. If you're worried about some of the especs, then precedent shows you should remain worried. Hopefully wrong about this but...

[Gorem.8104]

I like how peoples solution to problems is "just use the pets with the highest health" yeah because making a large portion of our pets redundant and useless is a good idea right? 

It would have been great to get an actual support spec so people would actually WANT a Ranger in big squads or meta squads outside of "here have some immob". 

Personally I had hoped this spec would have a lot of Unblockability with the hammer to combo with LB so we could actually hit people from range for a change. Instead we get forced into hammer as its the only weapon effected by Untamed even though Greatsword.. is still better in every way. 
We all stopped playing Core Ranger because its 100% terrible. SB is just better in Every. Single. Way. This should just be the new core Ranger spec, and we get a different Elite spec for the expac. 

Edited October 23, 2021 by Gorem.8104

[anduriell.6280]

1 minute ago, Gorem.8104 said:

I like how peoples solution to problems is "just use the pets with the highest health" yeah because making a large portion of our pets redundant and useless is a good idea right? 

It would have been great to get an actual support spec so people would actually WANT a Ranger in big squads or meta squads outside of "here have some immob". 

Personally I had hoped this spec would have a lot of Unblockability with the hammer to combo with LB so we could actually hit people from range for a change. Instead we get forced into hammer as its the only weapon effected by Untamed even though Greatsword.. is still better in every way. 

the people saying "just use beefier pets lol"  clearly don't use ranger outside of openworld PvE at all because of the out of the mark suggestions they do. 

 

Anet can not take those opinions seriously. Just smol point: 

• Untamed does not bring any new pet sustain. If those pets haven't been viable in wvw for 9 years they will not be viable now. If a Druid can not keep them alive with all its healing an untamed will be even more useless. 

[Gorem.8104]

Pretty much, I mean how often do you see Core Rangers asked to be in groups 😛 

Imagine playing core Ranger and people begging you to join them cause of your pet. If Untamed doesn't do that... What is the point of it. 

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

14 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

• Untamed does not bring any new pet sustain. If those pets haven't been viable in wvw for 9 years they will not be viable now. If a Druid can not keep them alive with all its healing an untamed will be even more useless. 

Mmmhmm.