Cost-Prohibitive to Returning Players

[Zentao.6314]

7 hours ago, Shining One.1635 said:

It's reasonable to ask that a seller list all of the things included in a package. It's unreasonable to ask a seller to list all of the things not included in a package. There are hundreds of items on the Gem Store not included with any package. Should ArenaNet add a disclaimer listing of all of those items individually as not included?

Living World season 2 and 3 are crucial parts of the story which needed for HoT and PoF, not just random gemstore skins.

[Rasimir.6239]

8 hours ago, Zentao.6314 said:

Living World season 2 and 3 are crucial parts of the story which needed for HoT and PoF, not just random gemstore skins.

That very much depends on your priorities. I know plenty of players who don't care one bit for the story and enjoy the game without paying attention to it at all. Both my oldest daughter and my husband, for example, have played the expansions without living world, and even partially out of order, and didn't mind one bit. Game mechanics are important for them, and they usually buy expansions because of elite specs (both are heavily into wvw). Story is mostly just a nuisance they can't always avoid 😉 . Having to dig through "you are missing story parts a, b, and c, and maps x, y, and z if you buy this expansion" would've been meaningless at best, confusing or irritating at worst for that kind of player.

 

I get where you come from. You like playing story, and so do I, but the story is really just a small part of this game, and there is a wealth of content you can play without ever paying attention to the story. It's not the only (and likely not even the main) selling point of this game for the majority of players, so putting that much extra emphasis on it is likely just as misleading (into making people think that story is more expansive than it actually is) as not mentioning the additional story parts (which, even if I repeat myself here, other games with expansion+dlc models don't mention either).

[Zentao.6314]

38 minutes ago, Rasimir.6239 said:

That very much depends on your priorities. I know plenty of players who don't care one bit for the story and enjoy the game without paying attention to it at all. Both my oldest daughter and my husband, for example, have played the expansions without living world, and even partially out of order, and didn't mind one bit. Game mechanics are important for them, and they usually buy expansions because of elite specs (both are heavily into wvw). Story is mostly just a nuisance they can't always avoid 😉 . Having to dig through "you are missing story parts a, b, and c, and maps x, y, and z if you buy this expansion" would've been meaningless at best, confusing or irritating at worst for that kind of player.

 

I get where you come from. You like playing story, and so do I, but the story is really just a small part of this game, and there is a wealth of content you can play without ever paying attention to the story. It's not the only (and likely not even the main) selling point of this game for the majority of players, so putting that much extra emphasis on it is likely just as misleading (into making people think that story is more expansive than it actually is) as not mentioning the additional story parts (which, even if I repeat myself here, other games with expansion+dlc models don't mention either).

Yes I'm aware that the story of this game is skippable, doesn't matter if you target endgame content and stuffs.

But... the story tells you the core history of the characters, why they are there, why they look like this, etc.

A lot events involve characters and dialogues which are connected to the main story line.
You need to play the complete story at least once to live with the world anet made.

This adds an another level of enjoyment and IMO if they are connected to the expansions ANet should at least inform the players about it.
 

Edited October 27, 2021 by Zentao.6314

[Rasimir.6239]

1 hour ago, Zentao.6314 said:

if they are connected to the expansions ANet should at least inform the players about it.

But they do, both in game and out of it. If I go to the main GW2 webpage and check what releases are available for this game, the first bullet point (before the expansions) is "Living World - Content updates that add story, rewards & more to the world of GW2". If I go to the story journal in game it has all of the seasons listed, and leads me directly to their requirements if I haven't unlocked them. If I go to the release page on the wiki, it even offers separate filter options for "expansion" and "living world stories".

 

I still stand by my point that while story is enjoyable for many, it is also not the kind of content the majority of players will spend the major part of their gametime on. As such, ANet can't put too much emphasis on story when advertising the game, else people that look for a primarily story focussed game will find it just as misleading as others do now. Every time a living world episode releases, we get countless of complaint threads stating "I finished the story in two hours, there is nothing to do in this episode". If they push players in general even more towards story by implying a "need" to unlock all story episodes, then those complaints are only going to multiply.

Not everybody plays MMORPGs because of the story. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if it's actually a minority that gets involved in the story the way you and I seem to do. There is a story in GW2, and personally I enjoy it a lot, but it's just not that important for many players. For those that care for this kind of thing, there is plenty of information around, but if they prefer to blindly buy stuff based on assumptions rather than look around just a tiny bit, that's on them.

[Vayne.8563]

14 hours ago, Klowdy.3126 said:

Lol, are you trying to outwit me? I'm just trying to get information. We're obviously talking about games most similar to the one in question (this game), and not the sims. I was genuinely asking if there are any. There's no need to try to spin my words against me. 

 

To rephrase (since I guess asking a question begs for debate), are there any MMORPGs that hand out DLCs for free. So far I have PoE.

Which isn't an MMORPG. 

Edit: It's an ARPG

Edited October 27, 2021 by Vayne.8563

[Luthan.5236]

I played from release until end 2013. Then came back in 2019. No need to buy everything directly at once. They even made the HoT and PoF cheaper cause you can get both and pay only once.

Story seasons are on sale often. (With the least events they also offered chapters for free - when you logged in during that week. Maybe they will do something similar again in the future.)

Gems can be earned by playing the game. (Though I do not do this. I try to keep gems and gold separate and buy gems only with real money. Only if a few gems are missing I use gold.)

Strategy would be buy only what you want to play - enjoying it slowlay (= also doing the achievements). If you want to play in chronological order of release ... by S2 next ... but wait for it to be on sale. Then HoT+PoF. And then S3., then S4.

But yeah: They should have grouped the expansion with the previous story leading to it. So you don't have gaps. Instead of bundlling HoT+PoF it should have been S2+HoT, S3+PoF.

Edited October 27, 2021 by Luthan.5236

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

12 minutes ago, Luthan.5236 said:

I played from release until end 2013. Then came back in 2019. No need to buy everything directly at once. They even made the HoT and PoF cheaper cause you can get both and pay only once.

Story seasons are on sale often. (With the least events they also offered chapters for free - when you logged in during that week. Maybe they will do something similar again in the future.)

Gems can be earned by playing the game. (Though I do not do this. I try to keep gems and gold separate and buy gems only with real money. Only if a few gems are missing I use gold.)

Strategy would be buy only what you want to play - enjoying it slowlay (= also doing the achievements). If you want to play in chronological order of release ... by S2 next ... but wait for it to be on sale. Then HoT+PoF. And then S3., then S4.

But yeah: They should have grouped the expansion with the previous story leading to it. So you don't have gaps. Instead of bundlling HoT+PoF it should have been S2+HoT, S3+PoF.

Again, if Living World Season 3 was bundled with Path of Fire, there would be the same laments.  "I can't play Season 3 without purchasing Heart of Thorns and Living World Season 2!" 

[Luthan.5236]

But they'd know the order. People usually inform themselves about the order of expansions - I guess.

Story thing ... might be new. (To totally new players or to players that did not know and stopped playing GW2 before S2 got released and returned much later.)

There were a few that had been surprised that the stor content even exists and needed to be bought separately.

Edited October 27, 2021 by Luthan.5236

[Rasimir.6239]

57 minutes ago, Luthan.5236 said:

Instead of bundlling HoT+PoF it should have been S2+HoT, S3+PoF.

Again: from a purely technical point of view this simply does not work. You can't play S3 maps (and stories, since those take place on those maps) without HoT masteries. They even warned players back when they released S3e1 that you need gliding to get anywhere on the map at all, and advanced gliding and mushroom jumping to get around the map without having to port back to waypoints constantly.

[Zentao.6314]

2 hours ago, Rasimir.6239 said:

But they do, both in game and out of it. If I go to the main GW2 webpage and check what releases are available for this game, the first bullet point (before the expansions) is "Living World - Content updates that add story, rewards & more to the world of GW2". If I go to the story journal in game it has all of the seasons listed, and leads me directly to their requirements if I haven't unlocked them. If I go to the release page on the wiki, it even offers separate filter options for "expansion" and "living world stories".

 

I still stand by my point that while story is enjoyable for many, it is also not the kind of content the majority of players will spend the major part of their gametime on. As such, ANet can't put too much emphasis on story when advertising the game, else people that look for a primarily story focussed game will find it just as misleading as others do now. Every time a living world episode releases, we get countless of complaint threads stating "I finished the story in two hours, there is nothing to do in this episode". If they push players in general even more towards story by implying a "need" to unlock all story episodes, then those complaints are only going to multiply.

Not everybody plays MMORPGs because of the story. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if it's actually a minority that gets involved in the story the way you and I seem to do. There is a story in GW2, and personally I enjoy it a lot, but it's just not that important for many players. For those that care for this kind of thing, there is plenty of information around, but if they prefer to blindly buy stuff based on assumptions rather than look around just a tiny bit, that's on them.

Where you can see this information on the buy page?
https://buy.guildwars2.com/store/gw2/html/pbPage.pathoffire/themeID.4785548100?Locale=en_IE

People go there if they interested in buying the game.
This page describe the main features of the game but nowhere mention that even thought you buy all expansions, the story is not complete.

This information should be on the actual buy page to make it obvious.

Edited October 27, 2021 by Zentao.6314

[Klowdy.3126]

1 hour ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Which isn't an MMORPG. 

Edit: It's an ARPG

That's a good point, but still has a few lobbies with tons of people, and grouping is a big part of it. It is still lumped in with MMOs by many gamers, and the searches I've done in the past. You don't run into people in the world, but you are zoned in with a bunch in towns.

 

I guess there aren't any games like this one handing out free DLCs? Since I have one response trying to outsmart me (for some reason), and another shooting down my stretch to have at least one game that offers free DLCs. 

[Vayne.8563]

1 hour ago, Klowdy.3126 said:

That's a good point, but still has a few lobbies with tons of people, and grouping is a big part of it. It is still lumped in with MMOs by many gamers, and the searches I've done in the past. You don't run into people in the world, but you are zoned in with a bunch in towns.

 

I guess there aren't any games like this one handing out free DLCs? Since I have one response trying to outsmart me (for some reason), and another shooting down my stretch to have at least one game that offers free DLCs. 

There's a difference in the costs of making different games. One could argue that adding tracks to a racing game is much more doable than adding zones to an MMO.

To be fair, I think Season 2 probably could be given away for free, but the creation of each Guild Wars 2 zone, according to devs takes about six months, and obviously it's not the work of one person. People have to be paid for that amount of work. Fill it with dozens if not more dynamic events, new rewards, adventures or light puzzles or jumping puzzles and you have a fairly expensive creation process, in addition to the cost of running servers that can hold a lot of people at one time.

 

People seem to think the type of game doesn't matter, but different types of games might have very different budgets and thus require very different monetization strategies. If you want to think that's someone trying to outsmart you, that's fine. It's not. The type of game often determines the type of monetization.

 

Path of Exiles is now up to 120 employees.  Anet started with 300 and went up to closer to 400.  It's not unreasonable to assume one game costs less to make/update/maintain than the other.

Edit: spelling

 

Edited October 27, 2021 by Vayne.8563

[Rasimir.6239]

2 hours ago, Zentao.6314 said:

Where you can see this information on the buy page?

But that was the whole point Shining One.1635 was trying to make when you originally quoted them: The purchase page is not the page that informs you what the whole game is. It is a page that informs you about what you are buying (in that case, one expansion or an expansion bundle). If I want to get an overview of what releases are available for a game, I don't expect that on the purchase page, but go looking for a release page instead (which incidentally this game has prominently on the top bar of its main website).

[Naxos.2503]

25 minutes ago, Rasimir.6239 said:

But that was the whole point Shining One.1635 was trying to make when you originally quoted them: The purchase page is not the page that informs you what the whole game is. It is a page that informs you about what you are buying (in that case, one expansion or an expansion bundle). If I want to get an overview of what releases are available for a game, I don't expect that on the purchase page, but go looking for a release page instead (which incidentally this game has prominently on the top bar of its main website).

That begs the question though, even if the bullet point you mentionned earlier mentions the Living World seasons are listed, are they listed as DLC and not just content ? That would be confusing to some if a price tag is not mentionned, as some may assume that it is just part of the main game (which would then lead to the existing upset)

Edited October 27, 2021 by Naxos.2503

[Klowdy.3126]

2 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

There's a difference in the costs of making different games. One could argue that adding tracks to a racing game is much more doable than adding zones to an MMO.

To be fair, I think Season 2 probably could be given away for free, but the creation of each Guild Wars 2 zone, according to devs takes about six months, and obviously it's not the work of one person. People have to be paid for that amount of work. Fill it with dozens if not more dynamic events, new rewards, adventures or light puzzles or jumping puzzles and you have a fairly expensive creation process, in addition to the cost of running servers that can hold a lot of people at one time.

 

People seem to think the type of game doesn't matter, but different types of games might have very different budgets and thus require very different monetization strategies. If you want to think that's someone trying to outsmart you, that's fine. It's not. The type of game often determines the type of monetization.

 

Path of Exiles is now up to 120 employees.  Anet started with 300 and went up to closer to 400.  It's not unreasonable to assume one game costs less to make/update/maintain than the other.

Edit: spelling

 

All true. The point was just to see if any games like GW2 gave out their DLCs for free. I don't know of any, but was leaving the discussion open if others knew some. 

 

I do agree with S2 being part of the F2P trial. That would give people a lot more time to decide if they want to buy the rest, and save up (however they like) to obtain S3-5. 

[Arewn.2368]

On 10/25/2021 at 2:55 AM, WelkinDust.8764 said:

Wow. I can't believe so many people are defending this. The fact that this topic has apparently popped up often on these forums tells me that I'm not the only one in this situation; I wonder how many hundreds or thousands of players who might be interested in starting or returning to this game are deterred by the high cost. Shouldn't that concern... anyone? Maybe ArenaNet has enough loyal fanboys dropping hundreds on the game regularly, I dunno.

I understand that companies have to make money; most game companies nowadays are shamelessly greedy but that's capitalism for you. My problem is with how much MORE expensive this game is compared to other major MMO titles, especially when this one is so falsely advertised as "free to play." And I'm very disturbed by this tactic of not including half the story with the purchase of the expansion packs -- and especially how they don't specifically tell you about it upfront.

Compare to WoW for example: sure, they have a monthly subscription and lots of people hate that. I spent way too much on WoW over more than a decade. But no matter how long you haven't played for, you can buy the current expansion for $40 and have access to the entire game, including all of the story. And just purchasing the expansion gives you 30 days of play time. So even if you need an extra month or two of subscription payments to actually see all the story, it's still way less than the $110 required for purchasing all of the story content in GW2. Not to mention the other 'hidden costs' to this game like needing gems for extra character slots when you start with a pathetic FIVE.

FFXIV and SWTOR are even better; I've played both extensively this year for less than $60 total. I suppose some people are rich enough not to care about dropping an extra $100 or whatever on a "free" game; to each their own. I'll just continue playing the aforementioned games and skip this one entirely.

It's a difference of upfront cost vs ongoing costs. I understand the sticker shock at the upfront price, but I don't think the value is significantly different from the games you mentioned.

 

You would be able to play the newest WoW expansion for about 5 month for $110. By the 6th month of playing, GW2 starts to be the better value. 

Same for FFXIV. Expansion is a bit pricier then WoW  while the sub fee is cheaper. Has a free trial just like GW2.

 

It's pretty in line with industry standard pricing, but has better value the longer you play thanks to the f2p  model and very frequent freebies. 

I do agree they should offer different packages though to alleviate the upfront cost. You should be able to buy HoT as a package with LS2/3 for example. That way you can buy the new content as you progress through it.

Overall it's still a cheaper deal then what anyone who bought the xpacs at launch had to pay.

[Blindefender.9834]

If you can't afford a one time $110 entertainment investment, maybe you should be out looking for a RL job instead of playing video games.

[Flasterko.4087]

10 minutes ago, Blindefender.9834 said:

If you can't afford a one time $110 entertainment investment, maybe you should be out looking for a RL job instead of playing video games.

While I agree that this game is not expensive and it is always ok to see some healthy discussion, I think this kind of attitude only makes things worse and not helps to discussion at all. 

 

There is plenty of possibilities why some people don't maybe have money to pay for game. It is ok to say "well company need money to make game" or whatever but to say to person to just find a job is just narrow minded.  In some countries $110 big part of monthly income. 

[Obtena.7952]

56 minutes ago, Flasterko.4087 said:

While I agree that this game is not expensive and it is always ok to see some healthy discussion, I think this kind of attitude only makes things worse and not helps to discussion at all. 

 

There is plenty of possibilities why some people don't maybe have money to pay for game. It is ok to say "well company need money to make game" or whatever but to say to person to just find a job is just narrow minded.  In some countries $110 big part of monthly income. 

That true ... but then those same players shouldn't feel entitled to come here and on the premise of being 'a returning player', claim the game is cost-prohibitive. If someone can't afford something that's $110, there is some tragedy there ... but they certain aren't entitled to a lower price. 

Edited October 28, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[ShadowCatz.8437]

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That true ... but then those same players shouldn't feel entitled to come here and on the premise of being 'a returning player', claim the game is cost-prohibitive and cry about it. 

This threads OP might come here to complain and then just leave (for other game she/he prefere to play), but it is everybody's right to voice their concerns, express their feelings or critice things in and around this game without being called out to be  "entitled" or use any other negative connotation or words.

I don't agree with those arguments set forward by OP, but we should as community also be careful to use a tone here on this forum that isn't helpful or even hostile towards new or returning player. The way  @Blindefender.9834 expressing himself or herself isn't very nice when assuming that people that find cost of this game high (which again is more flexible then an upfront cost of  € 110 - as it is possible to gradually buy both expansions and Seasons) are just jobless people or any low income people (independent of reason) should just work more to get money so they can afford to play this game.

I myself don't have a high income and still play this game and find this kind of posts rather ignorant of how different turns of life might take and for some people gaming is an important part of their life even when they have restriction for how much they can spend on their everyday expenses including gaming. Over time I have gained all Season there is in this game up to today, some payed with Gold to Gems, other with real money and some from log in window (for free), so maybe a bit more nuance in this debate, please?  

I want to remind both you and other here on this forum to keep a tone where people can participate in debate without feeling that they will be unwelcome or refered to be "entitled". I hope that you @Obtena.7952 agree that we can all be having different views and voice them without the necessarity to be called names in the future, even when we will disagree with somebody? 

[Obtena.7952]

4 minutes ago, ShadowCatz.8437 said:

I want to remind both you and other here on this forum to keep a tone where people can participate in debate without feeling that they will be unwelcome or refered to be "entitled". I hope that you @Obtena.7952 agree that we can all be having different views and voice them without the necessarity to be called names in the future, even when we will disagree with somebody? 

No one is being called 'names'. What the OP did is EXACTLY what being entitled means. They think they deserves some special treatment because of their status as 'returning' ... they don't.

Edited October 28, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[ShadowCatz.8437]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No one is being called 'names'. What the OP did is EXACTLY what being entitled means. 

And what exactly will calling someone "entitled" do for this kind of debate? OP have left this discussion as far as I am aware, so what will it bring to the table?

This thread is more likely to be seen from other "returning" or new player and it isn't really giving them a good impression of how this forum members communicate with eachother.

Liker I said: I don't agree with the view point made form OP, but it is still possible to make arguments like some other have done earlier in this post that isn't using descriptive terms like "entiltement" or "entilted".  It wil not bring any positive communication in any kind of debate and in worse case just derail into personal attacks.

[Obtena.7952]

4 minutes ago, ShadowCatz.8437 said:

Liker I said: I don't agree with the view point made form OP, but it is still possible to make arguments like some other have done earlier in this post that isn't using descriptive terms like "entiltement" or "entilted".  It wil not bring any positive communication in any kind of debate and in worse case just derail into personal attacks.

Sure we could avoid descriptive terms ... I know that. I've decided not to.  It won't bring positive communication in any debate? That's good IMO ... there shouldn't be a debate about supporting this entitlement for returning players in the first place.

[robertthebard.8150]

So I want to be both clear, and fair:

 

The argument is that buying LS on top of expansions is bad, because someone should get all story content, even if it's not listed as part of what they're buying?  It seems to me that this comes up in every discussion about this, and my reply is the same now as it was last time:  I missed LS 1, 2 and 3.  I got 4, and I think I'm getting most of the dragons stuff, despite not playing all much recently, for free.  What's the issue?  It's too expensive?  Nobody is required to buy it all at once, so I'm not sure what's that bad about it.  When I did get LS 2 and 3, I was bringing in $750.00 a month on my disability, and still managed to scrape together the cash to get them.  I just didn't do it all at once, but spread it out over a few months.

 

I was not indignant about not getting them for free, as I wasn't here while they were free.  I understand how it works, and why it works that way, they have employees to pay, and they don't charge for a sub.  If I want to play swtor the way I play here, for free for the most part, I have to lay out about 100 bucks to get all the unlocks, and even then, I'm not sure that advancement after my characters are at level cap, which is 24 or so of them, is included, and it would cost me 14.99 a month to be able to advance in command ranks, the after cap character advancement.  Again, I'm not sure about that, as I haven't checked the unlocks for that, if there are any. 

 

Here?  I just log in, and any content that I have to buy is already paid for, HoT and PoF specifically, and sometimes, there's free stuff just waiting for me to  acknowledge receipt of by clicking on a green star next to my daily log in rewards.  That doesn't seem very prohibitive to me.  I don't have to pay a sub.  I don't have to buy any unlocks to avoid having to pay a sub, and all of my currency is available, w/out having to mess around with how escrow works, a swtor feature for all credits one has above the credit cap.  I just log in, pick a character, and play.

[MarshallLaw.9260]

On 10/24/2021 at 12:01 PM, WelkinDust.8764 said:

Needless to say I won't be playing this game.

Then why are you bothered about this? In the hopes that Anet will suddenly look at your one shining post as a glorious beacon of pure wisdom and change their long established system, giving all LWS for free to all forever?

If you were there for the original release, you would have unlocked it for free **as a bonus for being there at the time**. Not to mention, that Anet has been giving away **all** the LWS and IBS for free over the last few months giving people a second chance to acquire the episodes without additional cost.

To be clear, there is 9 years of content there. For £100 or less. That's a lot of content and if people disagree then that's a difference we have. 

It boils down to whether players think it's worth it and purchase it, or don't. Personally I think it's great value for money. Others may not. That's just how it is.