Petition requesting the return of the second dodge for the mirage in all game modes !

[Senqu.8054]

8 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

dont forget
1 dodge mirage
Removal of F3 stun
removal of danger time from chrono
Mantra changes, both removal of charge, increasing cooldown, reducing damage AND adding LoS thingy
AT still bugged
Chaos storm rng change
Mirage cloak no longer gives superspeed ( now flat movespeed bonus, so chill/cripple screws you over big time )
axe 3/illu ambush no longer detarget
pistol 5 stun duration reduction
Revival trait nerf to 1%

Glamour Confusion Trait

Glamour Super Speed Trait

Clone HP trait

Clone does condis when downed trait 

Blind on Chaos armor

Blind on all shatter skills trait

GS damage Nerv

Phantasms now spawn only 1 time

Phantasm skills now perform an attack that reveals the Mesmer

Staff iWorlock from 2 to 1 in PvP/WvW

Staff iWorlock attack change from one hit to channel beam

Core Elite Skills CD increase

Focus 4 from instant cast to having a internal CD before activation

boon share signet (!!!!) deleted but given to another espec

Portal duration

Veil CD increased 

Distortion F4 on chrono

Distortion on Well

Distortion group share

 

just to name a few older ones 

 

 

 

 

 

[Yoci.2481]

You could build an entire new profession from all the stuff taken from Mesmer. And we are left a mere shadow of ourselfs, a phantasm if you excuse the pun, pale and shallow compared to other classes.

[Zraurum.8493]

On 12/4/2021 at 12:45 PM, Senqu.8054 said:

Glamour Confusion Trait

Glamour Super Speed Trait

Clone HP trait

Clone does condis when downed trait 

Blind on Chaos armor

Blind on all shatter skills trait

GS damage Nerv

Phantasms now spawn only 1 time

Phantasm skills now perform an attack that reveals the Mesmer

Staff iWorlock from 2 to 1 in PvP/WvW

Staff iWorlock attack change from one hit to channel beam

Core Elite Skills CD increase

Focus 4 from instant cast to having a internal CD before activation

boon share signet (!!!!) deleted but given to another espec

Portal duration

Veil CD increased 

Distortion F4 on chrono

Distortion on Well

Distortion group share

 

just to name a few older ones 

 

 

 

 

 

By the way, the updated chaos armor now makes it impossible to use the trait by 30% p def and regen, since you will have to sacrifice the damage and cooldown of the staff's skills. And because of the new animation, now it immediately gives out the position of the mesmer among the illusions.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

On 12/2/2021 at 4:38 PM, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

No we don't. People just need to get better at the game. But no one is required to do anything.

I get that people may feel they need two dodges. It's why build like this are so popular.

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Mirage_-_Celestial_Signet_Roamer for WVW

https://snowcrows.com/builds/mesmer/mirage/condition-alacrity-mirage for PVE

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Mesmer_-_Blurring_Inspiration for PVP

You can make mistakes and the build will carry you. It's why we don't have two dodges in competitive modes.

Not overpowered, but it can be oppressive in the right hands. Giving it an extra dodge is not balanced and would just result in something else getting nerfed. 

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Mirage_-_Carrion_Axe play this and learn how to interrupt. It will prepare you to transition into using virtuoso.

The only reason people play signet build is because dodge and vigor got nerfed. 

Yes, so oppressive that no one plays it at tournaments! 

[Daniel Handler.4816]

On 12/3/2021 at 4:37 AM, Daishi.6027 said:

Power mirage never over performed and was never oppressive, even before jaunt nerfs, even before evasive mirror nerfs, even before mirage cloak duration nerf. Condi mirage only thrived so strongly because of the nature of condis, and that condi illusions added so much momentum and pressure regardless of ambush or not something that was never a luxury Power had yet it had all the other abilities. This is proof mirage, with all it's defensive mechanics intact; was fine and fair.

The comparison between DD and the "amount of options during evade" is ridiculous. Mesmer outside of shatters, phantasms, and auto attack do not do substantial damage and it's all majorly disconnected between the time of button input before landing, and most of it is cleavable or manipulatable AI... Outside of the GS combo that: Requires you to be melee with a ranged weapon often requiring your blink, be optimal distance to manipulate bounces, precast-ed (often using a 2 - 3 second window stealth), and blow practically the entire bar plus your shatter to do the equivalent of a thief. And through all this if even 1 part of it is avoided, or unproperly spaced you do next to nothing.. Without the ability to teleport away/ hide into stealth/ or spam evades until you can try again or escape.

For at least power mirage, where majority of your skills and attacks are not quick on demand damage (compare the disconnected nature of Phantasmal berserker, and a 3 clone mind wrack, to something like Pistolwhip or heartseeker, or the frequency of getting to re-attempt backstabs); Then you start to notice that on demand evasion, even if "limited" is still substantial damage, momentum, and pressure And is far FARRRR more powerful than what mirage is doing.

And I don't want to hear crap about mirage mirrors; they are literally giant "I have to go over here to be able to do more DPS or Evade, and if I don't use it, I lose it." tells (that you can't even easily access with the nerfed jaunts), once again another luxury thief does not afford their opponents. And is garbage design anyways, only added because some artist thought it was fancy, and some simp dev added it to the class.

Mirage got nerfed because of the nature of Condi in PvP after A-net being unable to properly balance it; What we have now is a cut up and glued puzzle piece barely designed to fit. As such condi now is balanced and does it's role. But it is now a clunky mess and destroyed any other way to play. Sure some people screw around with power, but excelling with a handicap doesn't matter when the handicap shouldn't exist. (And it's moot anyways, it can't even 1v1 reliably and exits to +1 fights, which thief does better- and faster.)

"PeOpLe JuSt NeEd To GeT bEtTeR aT tHe GaMe." That's a pretty haughty take when other classes are the ones not overcoming an artificially imposed in-built handicap. There was a time around... season 11? 10? 8? 9? (I forgot) Where people made the argument that the only way Condi Mirage would lose was if it made a mistake; Let's say that's true - As it is now this is the nature of Power Mirage except in reverse towards every other class. Seems fair.

Oh But Virtuoso if you want to play power 🙄 Ya cuz that's working out... 

Kitteny Kitty-Kat you A-net; Don't buy end of dragons.

 

On 12/3/2021 at 2:50 PM, Daishi.6027 said:

Sorry, but a "window of invulnerability" is ALWAYS going to be far more inferior to "on demand" evasion ESPECIALLY in a competitive setting, not to mention the calculation of all defensive options including blocks, aegis, etc  between condi mirage and DD was run around season 9/10 when everyone was arguing about condi mirage, and DD STILL had more uptime over I think it was a 3 min window, and that didn't even calculate blinds... AND only mirage got nerfed in this area since then. But, for argument's sake let's say we even take your situation as a standard that is something not situationally effective:

You only really pull this off with blurred inscriptions, and this perpetuates the double standard to other classes who only need to take one line to do one thing effectively. Power Mirage/power core(/lol power chrono) in almost all cases needs two lines just to do effective damage, even Condi Mirage in sPvP generally wants Chaos or Dom over Insp. WvW in particular is carried by PvE stats like trailblazer or the inflated cele that offer a bit more wiggle room; but even then Power STILL needs two lines.

This is inferior to something like ranger's Wilderness Survival which offers them all the defense they need to sustain in one package, irrespective of gear, same with Alchemy for engie. Or Thief's Trickery line to give them all the initiative they need to out cooldown-sustain more than half the roster.

Moreover this locks you to signet usage... Which for a class that creates illusions is a giant "btw this is me!" sign, which A-net and the balance discord seem to want to pretend is as effective as thief stealth when balancing, lol. Also you lose out on access to things like Portal- Literally the only reason why mes was (increasingly rarely) picked instead thief prior to HoT, mantra of distraction, or fun things like Illusionary Ambush.

It's a pretty conceited take to dismiss the rest of the game just because your build does fine with PvE stats and chopping it up to a skill or knowledge issue when it seems like you are not even considering a ton of context. Ya, sure; it's all meme builds and borderline useless ect, ect. But the point is it doesn't NEED to be that way, and frankly I'd rather Blurred inscriptions get nerfed than literally the core design of the elite spec.

Also without big changes, that even the new ones CMC himself admitted are likely not enough... Virtuoso isn't doing anything in sPvP, so I don't know where this "All game modes" idea you have is, but an argument could maybe be made for a specific role WvW particularly GvG; and I'm still pressing a massive X to doubt.

 

The through line is y'all just want to play power mirage and dont care how disgusting condi mirage can get with two dodges.

So as much as this is a meme at this point. Virtuoso IS your best hope for power mesmer.

[Daishi.6027]

I specifically care about Power Mirage, others may not.

But you're missing the point.
 

On 12/3/2021 at 4:37 AM, Daishi.6027 said:

Power mirage never over performed and was never oppressive, even before jaunt nerfs, even before evasive mirror nerfs, even before mirage cloak duration nerf. Condi mirage only thrived so strongly because of the nature of condis, and that condi illusions added so much momentum and pressure regardless of ambush or not something that was never a luxury Power had yet it had all the other abilities. This is proof mirage, with all it's defensive mechanics intact; was fine and fair.
 

A-net should have balanced the nature of condi in sPvP and WvW and not gutted the spec, OR did something about blurred inscriptions if that was the long end of the issue with ambushes, not kill an entire damage archetype while at the same time making condi feel clunky to even wield.

There were several suggestions to do this. From making it so the condi shatters narrowed down on F1 and F2, Removing condis on illusions outside of ambushes, and more, and everyone ignored, likely not even play tested; all because terrabads were crying about mirage cloak as if it made it some unstoppable monster, which is clearly untrue since again Power did not have the issue, and even I was quite proficient at timing stuns for the end of the EXTENDED mirage cloak. It's almost like the burden for the rest of the game to adapt was to hard, but less evasion than a ranger is not a solution unless you are incredibly lazy and just want to hurt the class. In a competitive game adaptation to something effective is far more fair than adaption to overcome an artificially imposed handicap.

And for how garbage Virtuoso is that isn't much hope, and is likely also going to be a double standard for what is fair compared to other classes. From Karl to CMC to the Balance discord the philosophy for mesmer is "Equality is Overpowered".

Edited December 6, 2021 by Daishi.6027

[Daniel Handler.4816]

24 minutes ago, Daishi.6027 said:

I specifically care about Power Mirage, others may not.

But you're missing the point.

Quote

Power mirage never over performed and was never oppressive, even before jaunt nerfs, even before evasive mirror nerfs, even before mirage cloak duration nerf. Condi mirage only thrived so strongly because of the nature of condis, and that condi illusions added so much momentum and pressure regardless of ambush or not something that was never a luxury Power had yet it had all the other abilities. This is proof mirage, with all it's defensive mechanics intact; was fine and fair.

A-net should have balanced the nature of condi in sPvP and WvW and not gutted the spec, OR did something about blurred inscriptions if that was the long end of the issue with ambushes, not kill an entire build while at the same time making condi feel clunky to even wield.

Are you now not just asking them to gut condi mirage because you want power mirage to be a thing? Or every build that runs inspiration for tanking? There are also people who specifically care about those builds as well

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Daniel Handler.4816

[Daishi.6027]

10 minutes ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

Are you now not just asking them to gut condi mirage because you want power mirage to be a thing? Or every build that runs inspiration for tanking? And there are also people who specifically care about those builds as well.

 

They don't have to gut it, they can balance it by putting it on the same level as power. Power clones do not scale with the main damage type, power shatters do not add damage on f3 and f4. Things like this are easily equalized by tweaking the relevant trait lines.

Tanking is not the same standard in sPvP, and blurred inscriptions was primarily taken in response to the nerfs, and could easily be equalized if over performing in sPvP and WvW; at least that is a single grand master (that replaced another GM btw) and not an entire cut to a core mechanic intrinsic to the entire game.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Daishi.6027

[TwiceDead.1963]

Why? Having the ability to dodge any. time. you. want. regardless of circumstance, be it while attacking, being CC'ed or immobed, ANY CIRCUMSTANCE, is broken as hell and halving that potential is one of Anets few but apt solutions. Then again Including it in the first place was one of Anets big lapses in judgement, so it balances out.

[Daishi.6027]

16 minutes ago, TwiceDead.1963 said:

Why? Having the ability to dodge any. time. you. want. regardless of circumstance, be it while attacking, being CC'ed or immobed, ANY CIRCUMSTANCE, is broken as hell and halving that potential is one of Anets few but apt solutions. Then again Including it in the first place was one of Anets big lapses in judgement, so it balances out.

"Any time you want" is strong... only when you have skills that make that matter. If Condi builds didn't put stacks so readily and passively- akin to power; this would not be an issue. It's not analogous to let's say; covering Rapid fire mid channel. The only thing that would be covered as an active skill, that is substantial is phantasm casting.

Evasion while imob is not out of the scope of this game, particularly for thief, but they aren't the only one. The only situation that is out of place is hard CC. And when you only have 2 + mirrors that you can visually see and play around, with attacks that you as the opponent can manipulate; there isn't an issue. It's far far stronger to have so much on demand evasion that you could avoid getting CCed in the first place, many of which across ranger and thief do damage or add to the momentum.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Daishi.6027

[Daniel Handler.4816]

Just now, Daishi.6027 said:

They don't have to gut it, they can balance it by putting it on the same level as power. Power illusions do not scale with the main damage type, power shatters do not add damage on f3 and f4. Things like this are easily equalized.

Tanking is not the same standard in sPvP, and blurred inscriptions was primarily taken in response to the nerfs, and could easily be equalized if over performing; at least that is a single grand master (that replaced another GM) and not an entire cut to a core mechanic of an elite spec.

Except by your admission power is bad. So why would they put it on the same level of power instead of the reverse. Power needs to be on the same level as condi. 

You like power mirage. Some people like condi chrono. There will be people who prefer condi virtoso.

Why is it in all these discussions the main playstyle of the spec needs to get nerfed because of an alternate playstyle the spec can do (but wasn't really intended for).

[Daishi.6027]

25 minutes ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

Except by your admission power is bad. So why would they put it on the same level of power instead of the reverse. Power needs to be on the same level as condi. 

You like power mirage. Some people like condi chrono. There will be people who prefer condi virtoso.

Why is it in all these discussions the main playstyle of the spec needs to get nerfed because of an alternate playstyle the spec can do (but wasn't really intended for).

It's bad "NOW" after all the defensive nerfs. For seasons 9 - 11ish the only statement I made was that it didn't over perform, which is fine; nothing should. It had good ebb and flow in combat, it had more than enough counter play, and it had the tools to outplay others.

Condi at the time DID over perform, objectively. It needed to be nerfed; it didn't need to be nerfed by cutting it's defensive options down, and cutting it's evasion in half. What metric do we have to go on to assess that to be accurate; Power Mirage. The solution should have been to equalize it to it's not overperforming counterpart that was doing fine.

The alternative what was done was literally the equivalent to cutting up a puzzle piece to make it fit in a very narrow cumbersome and awkward way.

But okay you want to put power on the same level as condi other than trying a balanced approach that works for all builds? Okay, Let's get clones to do damage like in the early beta, and get scaling damage traits for all 4 shatters; I'm sure that'll be super healthy for the game. 🙄

Edited December 6, 2021 by Daishi.6027

[Daniel Handler.4816]

55 minutes ago, Daishi.6027 said:

It's bad "NOW" after all the defensive nerfs. Back in season 9 - 11 the only statement I made was that it didn't over perform, which is fine; nothing should.

Condi at the time DID over perform, objectively. It needed to be nerfed; it didn't need to be nerfed by cutting it's defensive options down, and cutting it's evasion in half. What metric do we have to go on to assess that to be accurate; Power Mirage.

The alternative what was done was literally cutting up a puzzle piece to make it fit in a very narrow cumbersome way.
 

They try their best but right now every elite spec has a main thing it is good at, and some alternate playstyles that are viable but not great.

For mesmer

• Chronomancer is good at power dps and/or support in large-scale content (WvW zergs/strikes/raids). It struggles to be a power dps in faster content.
• Mirage is good at condi dps and support in small-scale content (WvW roaming, sPvP, even fractals on specific bosses). And as a power dps in open world. It struggles with power dps in faster content as well.

Virtuoso still needs tweaking but already it addresses your issue of f3/f4 shatters not scaling with main damage. Mechanically it is going in the direction of being a power dps for all modes, and struggling on the condi side of things.

It would be nice if every elite spec was good at every playstyle in every game mode. But that is incredibly difficult to pull off. 

> Condi at the time DID over perform, objectively. It needed to be nerfed; it didn't need to be nerfed by cutting it's defensive options down, and cutting it's evasion in half. What metric do we have to go on to assess that to be accurate; Power Mirage.

Your version of restoring the dodge and equalizing the class is to nerf condi mirage.

So again I want to know if in a year from now we are also going to be having discussions on how virtuoso needs to be "equalized" because the condi build doesn't perform as well as power. The dagger and bloodsongs need more conditions, w/e.

Why does the main playstyle have to be equalized to the alternate?

Edited December 6, 2021 by Daniel Handler.4816

[Senqu.8054]

If condi mirage was op but power mirage wasn't. Doesn’t that mean that the problem is related to something what both „alignments“ don’t have in common? And your version of equalization is crippling a whole class or how can I understand this? 
 

„They try their best“ ou come! Do we have now the same expectations from these developers as from a „special“ child or what? This is getting seriously ridiculous.

[Moody Soul.5617]

If mirage gets back its second dodge it would be very nice, But old builds will come to raise and be oppressive once again if they do not get nerfed before hand. Example: Power mirage for pvp and Wvw is insanely strong even after the nerf to the dodge and will easily out compete theif and rev with a second dodge in the right hands. Currently power mirage is under performing as it uses its dodge offensively so if your a keen theif or Rev you would know to jump on that mirage once they use their dodge and force a distortion or 2 out of them and bam you got a dead mesmer. But whole heartedly removing the second dodge in pvp was a very very obvious sign of them trying to avoid the issues with mirage in pvp as its a highly non-interactive class and they didn't want to touch a trait like infinite horizon in fear of killing it completely in pve at the time.

Edited December 6, 2021 by soul.6527
Everyone forgets the day's power mantra mirage in pvp smh

[Tseison.4659]

Oh I definitely want our 2nd dodge back, however, I’ll gladly trade the Infinite Horizon trait to do something else.

Regardless, us having only one dodge while thieves (daredevils) remain UNTOUCHED and get to keep their 3 dodges? Yeah no, bring ours back, end of story. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Tseison.4659
Forgot our Ambush comes as a passive, fixed.

[Salt Mode.3780]

2 hours ago, Tseison.4659 said:

Oh I definitely want our 2nd dodge back, however, I’ll gladly trade the Infinite Horizon trait to do something else. Either grant the Mesmer only an ambush skill and NOT the clones. But then that’d be more of a major trait. 
 

Regardless, I don’t care what others say, us having only one dodge while thieves (daredevils) remain UNTOUCHED and get to keep their 3 dodges? Yeah no, bring ours back, end of story. 

The whole point of the trait is to give clones ambush....you already get ambush without the trait....what?

[Mik.3401]

If that was necro or guardian - request could work , but with Mesmer there is no chance to convince the devs

Edited December 7, 2021 by Mik.3401

[Puck.3697]

On 11/29/2021 at 1:33 AM, Veprovina.4876 said:

No it wasn't too strong, it was on par with other similarly effective classes. Why don't they remove Necro shroud from WvW then? It's also something other classes don't have and it's stronger than just one health bar?

While i dont agree with the notion of it not being too strong.. it was and Most people can admit that mesmer main or not, Necromancers Took a different approach. Incoming damage and Ability usuage both burn the Necro bar which balances it out.. also it has a Massive ramp up time to actually use it 100% Which puts the necromancer at a Disadvantage during said ramp up.

Removing the second dodge was always a Janky fix to the situation and Likely shouldnt of been the one used... putting a ICD on mirage cloak was obviously the smoother way to fix the issue.

and Similarly effective classes?.. if thats true they all also got nerfed.

Scourge took heavy PvP Nerfs its not that strong anymore.. DH Isnt that strong anymore either, its got a meme build which becomes 100x Less effective when enemies learn how to dodge lol.

However. i will finish this with i agree with a Statement to saying Removing a Dodge entirely after all the Nerfs done towards it prior the removal of 1 Dodge.

On 11/29/2021 at 4:10 AM, Asum.4960 said:

And let's not ignore how Mirages were literally casually winning 1v4's at their peak in Plat 2+, until for 3+ seasons straight I had 3+ mirages every match at that time, which got so ridiculous that I started to track match outcomes during the 2 dodge CI Mirage days, and the team with the most Mirages turned out to be a 95% accurate win prediction for my well over 100 P2-3 games over those months leading up to it's nerfs. 

That build was imo the most damaging thing to the PvP scene since Bunker Chrono.

 

Anyway, since balance Devs like CMC are on record on stream as recent as this month talking about how insanely broken Mirage Cloak is and what a bad idea it was to add to the game, it's not like you have much of an argument here, least of all to have with me.

and lots will agree with this statement.. however, Removing a Dodge was a "Easy fix" not the correct fix, If they've reached a point where they are saying "Mirage cloak is a Bad concept in the game" wouldnt have Reworking something been a Better long term fix for the Elite instead of Leaving it Janky and in a weird place to get a faster fix out.

while sure, People like to proclaim it was "Balanced" and defintly are untrue with that, im ngl to Nerf them repeatively and then Just remove a Dodge without rethinking the prior things was always gonna lead to problems. if they were gonna drop mirage to 1 dodge, they shoulda Likely structured this change better and Rebalanced the proffession with 1 dodge in mind.

On 11/29/2021 at 8:45 AM, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

People will tell the most absurd kitten to sell you something. 

Mirage was already one of the professions with the least amount of dodges before they cut out one dodge.

All vigor was nerfed into absurd levels, a single vigor trait from one of the other professions gets you the same vigor than mirage with three vigor traits. 

To add to that evade was reduce to match a regular dodge and the mobility of dodge was reduce to lower than a regular dodge and let's not even talk if you've impairing conditions on you. 

One dodge makes you spam on full endurance instead of playing smart. 

So please put the guitar back in the bag and go play your kitten music somewhere else. 

well thats the real issue here.. they didnt retest / Restructure ther proffession correctly to have 1 dodge.. its managable.. Revs new elite does it pretty well.. and its likely about time they revisit this problem and look for a better fix overall. not to say removing 1 dodge instead of maybe looking at a better long term fix was a good idea either.

it seems like they reliesed somethign was overperforming and Just Ripped Out something major to Instantly put it down instead of trying to retain its functionality under more controlled circumstances.

[Daishi.6027]

8 hours ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

They try their best but right now every elite spec has a main thing it is good at, and some alternate playstyles that are viable but not great.

For mesmer

• Chronomancer is good at power dps and/or support in large-scale content (WvW zergs/strikes/raids). It struggles to be a power dps in faster content.
• Mirage is good at condi dps and support in small-scale content (WvW roaming, sPvP, even fractals on specific bosses). And as a power dps in open world. It struggles with power dps in faster content as well.

Virtuoso still needs tweaking but already it addresses your issue of f3/f4 shatters not scaling with main damage. Mechanically it is going in the direction of being a power dps for all modes, and struggling on the condi side of things.

It would be nice if every elite spec was good at every playstyle in every game mode. But that is incredibly difficult to pull off. 

> Condi at the time DID over perform, objectively. It needed to be nerfed; it didn't need to be nerfed by cutting it's defensive options down, and cutting it's evasion in half. What metric do we have to go on to assess that to be accurate; Power Mirage.

Your version of restoring the dodge and equalizing the class is to nerf condi mirage.

So again I want to know if in a year from now we are also going to be having discussions on how virtuoso needs to be "equalized" because the condi build doesn't perform as well as power. The dagger and bloodsongs need more conditions, w/e.

Why does the main playstyle have to be equalized to the alternate?

Lol, yes it's a nerf but only in the context of something that was over performing. Are you saying things that are over performing shouldn't be nerfed? What logic is this?

If you have a good example of something not being overpowered and something else being overpowered with a very similar playstyle, (since it's tied to the same class and baseline traits) what makes more sense: Gutting the entire class so it only works one way? Or making it comparable? It's not about making them equal for the sake of making them equal, it's about not killing one off when you clearly have to impose nerfs, and you already have the balanced template as a solid example.

Besides across the ENTIRE CLASS (not just mirage) Condi over shadowed power entirely, and mesmer in the past has been frequently nerfed for it regardless of it hurting power specs. In PvP, because of the nature of core traits amping up condis on all 4 shatters, along with clones applying conditions, Power by comparison has only ever thrived because of the one greatsword combo, or getting access to something from an elite spec. For Chrono: It got sustain and Cooldown reduction, which had to go because; chrono bunk was broken and had to be fixed. But after the reduction on alacrity, and nerfs to quickness no one played Power Chrono until it got relatively unfair damage buffs that were also nerfed into the ground pretty quickly... And why's that? Because the application and level of damage is fair; Really all power needs to thrive is on demand survivability proportionate to it's damage. (Which would also be true for condi if it was made comparable.)

That's what Mirage gave, and why power did return to a state of effectiveness. Mirage had intrinsic abilities to sustain- and everyone complained, but they complained not understanding that it was because Condi could take tankier amulets, and had more sources of application, which made every fight a one-sided war of attrition, with way to many things to avoid that they could reasonably be asked to keep up with. But all they see on their end is: "I don't do enough dmg, it to tanky, it dodge to much while casting, I die, all is vain" Yet not saying the same about power. (unless exceptionally bad).

And frankly Power mirage in season 9-10 was the most balanced, most fair balanced matchup against the roster in the whole of the games history. And I say this as someone who historically frequently did stop playing mesmer in games that actually mattered in favor of Thief and Ranger, because they flat out did the job better than mesmer except didn't have portal or moa.

You say "they did their best" which is fine you can only do so much asking the sea of laymen as they complain about mirage cloak, to bad A-net never learned that appeals to popularity are a fallacy. But their attempts to nerf condi mirage at first was to reduce stacks here or there; shockingly, (and I said it wouldn't at the time when A-net announced); nothing changed. What REALLY had to happen was to reduce application options and buff up a few main application methods if need be...  So what do they do instead after failing to shaving a few stacks, which I already called out would never work? They start gutting the defenses so that it'll die more... So great you kinda got the mark, in the wort way possible.. and people STILL complain about the build.

As for Virtuoso it's entirely a downgrade from core in sPvP and will be equally terrible at WvW roam. No matter what "tweaks" are added a power mesmer spec it will fail so long as it doesn't have increased sustain. All Virtuoso boils down to is trading off 1 clone for shatters (5 blades vs [4] 3+Illusionary persona) in exchange for losing out on staggering dazes, distortion, and GS combo. I guess you also get the benefit of not having your resource manipulated by opponents; but that's a standard every class gets restoring that shouldn't have so many drawbacks attached.

Virtuoso needs "Keep away" mechanics, be it evasion, teleports, stealth, anything.. and they refuse. If literally nothing else it AT LEAST needs something similar to Ranger's Hunter's Shot to be worth taking. (Which is funny since that skill alone gives Rangers more reliable on demand sheath than Mesmer as a class.)

Given Condi's over all supremacy over the entire mesmer class, I'd argue Virtuoso shouldn't even have condi traits. one huge downgrade here is that it doesn't have illusions to apply stacks, that's not something easily going to be overcome without "Danger time"-esque buffs. But if we're insistent on having condi, I would have no problems bringing it up to the level of power. But if history has shown anything, assuming it's somehow not garbage out of the gate; it's far more likely Virtuoso will get some sort of 50% nerf and kill off the power build making condi the only viable build, exactly what happened with Chrono and Mirage.

Edited December 7, 2021 by Daishi.6027

[Daniel Handler.4816]

3 hours ago, Daishi.6027 said:

Lol, yes it's a nerf but only in the context of something that was over performing. Are you saying things that are over performing shouldn't be nerfed? What logic is this?

If you have a good example of something not being overpowered and something else being overpowered with a very similar playstyle, (since it's tied to the same class and baseline traits) what makes more sense: Gutting the entire class so it only works one way? Or making it comparable? It's not about making them equal for the sake of making them equal, it's about not killing one off when you clearly have to impose nerfs, and you already have the balanced template as a solid example.

 

 

You have something that was overperforming and something was fine. Now one is good/fine, and the other is underperforming. 

Instead of gutting "equalizing" condi mirage since mirage is fundamentally a condi spec, they could just buff the power parts. Or you know, you could play virtuoso for power in small scale, as is their stated intent (at least spvp, but hopefully for fractals and wvw as well).

But rather than question why people insist every elite spec has to be competitive on every playstyle in every game mode, I'll just point out that this argument:

Quote

Really all power needs to thrive is on demand survivability proportionate to it's damage. (Which would also be true for condi if it was made comparable.)

does not fit with anything else you are saying.

Particularly with:

Quote

As for Virtuoso it's entirely a downgrade from core in sPvP and will be equally terrible at WvW roam. No matter what "tweaks" are added a power mesmer spec it will fail so long as it doesn't have increased sustain. All Virtuoso boils down to is trading off 1 clone for shatters (5 blades vs [4] 3+Illusionary persona) in exchange for losing out on staggering dazes, distortion, and GS combo. I guess you also get the benefit of not having your resource manipulated by opponents; but that's a standard every class gets restoring that shouldn't have so many drawbacks attached.

Virtuoso needs "Keep away" mechanics, be it evasion, teleports, stealth, anything.. and they refuse. If literally nothing else it AT LEAST needs something similar to Ranger's Hunter's Shot to be worth taking. (Which is funny since that skill alone gives Rangers more reliable on demand sheath than Mesmer as a class.)

You want the trait lines to come with more survivability than aegis and regen. But you also say on demand survivability is supposed to be proportionate to damage.

Mesmer (and by extension virtuoso) has decoy, signet of midnight, mass invis, the prestige, and even veil. All of which do not require a target and cannot be reflected or line of sighted. And 4/5 are not inaccessible following a weapon swap. Virtuoso already has more on demand stealth than ranger (which only other options are randomly via siamoth or via huge tells using celestial avatar or smokescale). 

Increasing mirages or virtuosos survivability will just result in them doing less damage.

Edited December 7, 2021 by Daniel Handler.4816

[Daishi.6027]

4 hours ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

 

You have something that was overperforming and something was fine. Now one is good/fine, and the other is underperforming. 

Instead of gutting "equalizing" condi mirage since mirage is fundamentally a condi spec, they could just buff the power parts. Or you know, you could play virtuoso for power in small scale, as is their stated intent (at least spvp, but hopefully for fractals and wvw as well).

Or. And here's a strange thought; Mirage could just function properly with two evades like every other class, and we end up having two things that are good/fine.
But No... Don't change condi from an OP state in that way, cuz the other side would be effective too. can't have that! That's horrible for some reason. 🙄

 

4 hours ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

But rather than question why people insist every elite spec has to be competitive on every playstyle in every game mode, I'll just point out that this argument:

does not fit with anything else you are saying.

Particularly with:

You want the trait lines to come with more survivability than aegis and regen. But you also say on demand survivability is supposed to be proportionate to damage.

First of 5 procs of aegis tied to blade songs, and heal is not comparable to easy access 3/4 - 1/2 evades on skills that aren't occupied by your main damage options. This is a standard other classes get and do more damage, and it's cute you think the bit of regen offers much.
 

 

4 hours ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

Mesmer (and by extension virtuoso) has decoy, signet of midnight, mass invis, the prestige, and even veil. All of which do not require a target and cannot be reflected or line of sighted. And 4/5 are not inaccessible following a weapon swap. Virtuoso already has more on demand stealth than ranger (which only other options are randomly via siamoth or via huge tells using celestial avatar or smokescale). 

Increasing mirages or virtuosos survivability will just result in them doing less damage.

Lmao, Decoy is 3s for 40s c/d. Signet of Midnight is 2s for 30s c/d. Mass Invisi is 6s for 75sc/d, Veil is 2s for 72s c/d and gives a big ol "this is where I am" indicator if you want more.

Hunter's shot is 3 seconds on a 12 second cooldown, even with wiffs it's simple math to figure out this is a lot more available in a fight. Even if you miss half the time off cooldown that is more than decoy and signet of midnight combined within 1min... and not even core runs more than one stealth utility. And this is on a weapon + on a class that doesn't really need to weapon swap so often since they don't have a "ramp up" mechanic. And there isn't enough reflect to justify suggesting that is somehow inferior.  (by the by any class with AI is almost guaranteed.)

If for example this was put on torch, even if it tied to one weapon pretty much no one would run decoy or signet of midnight anymore outside of a break stun or signet traits.

Edited December 7, 2021 by Daishi.6027

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Giving more sustain will result in damage nerf... 

Is this for real? Core has more damage (both sustain and burst) and such sustain than Virt! Is this so hard to grasp? 

And don't come with ranged damage because that's BS as both me and Mort proved in this or other thread, can't recall which one since this is kitten is plagued by Virt praise threads. 

[Mell.4873]

16 hours ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

They try their best but right now every elite spec has a main thing it is good at, and some alternate playstyles that are viable but not great.

For mesmer

• Chronomancer is good at power dps and/or support in large-scale content (WvW zergs/strikes/raids). It struggles to be a power dps in faster content.
• Mirage is good at condi dps and support in small-scale content (WvW roaming, sPvP, even fractals on specific bosses). And as a power dps in open world. It struggles with power dps in faster content as well.

Virtuoso still needs tweaking but already it addresses your issue of f3/f4 shatters not scaling with main damage. Mechanically it is going in the direction of being a power dps for all modes, and struggling on the condi side of things.

It would be nice if every elite spec was good at every playstyle in every game mode. But that is incredibly difficult to pull off. 

> Condi at the time DID over perform, objectively. It needed to be nerfed; it didn't need to be nerfed by cutting it's defensive options down, and cutting it's evasion in half. What metric do we have to go on to assess that to be accurate; Power Mirage.

Your version of restoring the dodge and equalizing the class is to nerf condi mirage.

So again I want to know if in a year from now we are also going to be having discussions on how virtuoso needs to be "equalized" because the condi build doesn't perform as well as power. The dagger and bloodsongs need more conditions, w/e.

Why does the main playstyle have to be equalized to the alternate?

This is what I'm hoping Virtuoso will fix since i want a fast content Mesmer. Looking ford to kitting a Virtuoso out and trying it.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

9 hours ago, Daishi.6027 said:

Or. And here's a strange thought; Mirage could just function properly with two evades like every other class, and we end up having two things that are good/fine.
But No... Don't change condi from an OP state in that way, cuz the other side would be effective too. can't have that! That's horrible for some reason. 🙄


First of 5 procs of aegis tied to blade songs, and heal is not comparable to easy access 3/4 - 1/2 evades on skills that aren't occupied by your main damage options. This is a standard other classes get and do more damage, and it's cute you think the bit of regen offers much.

 

Well no. Condi, more specifically condi mirage, is not OP at higher ranks, especially not in ATs. Sure necromancers are meta but virtually everyone else runs power. Your version of equalizing is a nerf. Or rebalancing mesmer around conditions with less counterplay than confusion/torment despite the class identity.

Quote

Lmao, Decoy is 3s for 40s c/d. Signet of Midnight is 2s for 30s c/d. Mass Invisi is 6s for 75sc/d, Veil is 2s for 72s c/d and gives a big ol "this is where I am" indicator if you want more.

Hunter's shot is 3 seconds on a 12 second cooldown, even with wiffs it's simple math to figure out this is a lot more available in a fight. Even if you miss half the time off cooldown that is more than decoy and signet of midnight combined within 1min... and not even core runs more than one stealth utility. And this is on a weapon + on a class that doesn't really need to weapon swap so often since they don't have a "ramp up" mechanic. And there isn't enough reflect to justify suggesting that is somehow inferior.  (by the by any class with AI is almost guaranteed.)

If for example this was put on torch, even if it tied to one weapon pretty much no one would run decoy or signet of midnight anymore outside of a break stun or signet traits.

You can literally line of sight it. You are acting like ranger never has to weapon swap.

But if you want to compare us to rangers. Why are you so insistent that Mirage be given the tools to run without inspiration when most rangers are running Wilderness Survival?

There is certainly an argument to be had that power mirage doesn't do enough damage running a defensive trait line. But the solution is not to buff mirage survivability to the point it doesn't need to. Because then the people that do run more tanky are now unkillable.

You have said :

Quote

"Really all power needs to thrive is on demand survivability proportionate to it's damage. (Which would also be true for condi if it was made comparable.)"

But you are approaching it from the wrong part of the equation. It needs more damage for a being glass cannon. Not to make more bunker specs.

Edited December 7, 2021 by Daniel Handler.4816