Petition requesting the return of the second dodge for the mirage in all game modes !

[Leonidrex.5649]

19 hours ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

 

You have something that was overperforming and something was fine. Now one is good/fine, and the other is underperforming. 

Instead of gutting "equalizing" condi mirage since mirage is fundamentally a condi spec, they could just buff the power parts. Or you know, you could play virtuoso for power in small scale, as is their stated intent (at least spvp, but hopefully for fractals and wvw as well).

But rather than question why people insist every elite spec has to be competitive on every playstyle in every game mode, I'll just point out that this argument:

does not fit with anything else you are saying.

Particularly with:

You want the trait lines to come with more survivability than aegis and regen. But you also say on demand survivability is supposed to be proportionate to damage.

Mesmer (and by extension virtuoso) has decoy, signet of midnight, mass invis, the prestige, and even veil. All of which do not require a target and cannot be reflected or line of sighted. And 4/5 are not inaccessible following a weapon swap. Virtuoso already has more on demand stealth than ranger (which only other options are randomly via siamoth or via huge tells using celestial avatar or smokescale). 

Increasing mirages or virtuosos survivability will just result in them doing less damage.

people want to play power mirage because it's unique, fun and interactive build.
Its actually exceptionally fun to play, I sometimes come back to power mirage despite it being a bad and me being bad at it its this enjoyable. It brings unique feel that no other builds brings.
THIS is why people will defend power mirage, we know mirage was made as a condi spec, but honestly the power one is more fun all around and I see no reason not to cultivate that.
They made something amazing as a byproduct and instead off cultivating it they threw it in a trash and that is just pathetic IMO

[Daishi.6027]

8 hours ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

Well no. Condi, more specifically condi mirage, is not OP at higher ranks, especially not in ATs. Sure necromancers are meta but virtually everyone else runs power. Your version of equalizing is a nerf. Or rebalancing mesmer around conditions with less counterplay than confusion/torment despite the class identity.

I think you are mistaken on what I am referring to. I'm talking about a full reversion to season 9 Mirage. Before jaunt nerfs, before any condi shaves, before anything affected survivability. 2 dodges, ect.

If it was at that stage the output as in "avoidable or unavoidable damage sources" and application (in relation to condi) should have been equalized to same as power, at that stage of the game; it would be perfectly viable since nerfs were coming, and now it would exist with the two evades. It was not OP at higher ranks even then (despite the amount of ppl crying about it) but it did over perform to a degree A-net was not gonna let it go, and it would not be OP now if we consider things like mirage cloak duration, and Evasive mirror nerfs would stick (because obviously). It would function with the same two evades as everyone else has now, have more jaunts, etc. AND power can exits along side it.

There are no negatives, it would function very well, and if anything it would be a side grade to what we have now. Instead of less survivability and tying it to supplementing from inspiration and sigils. The output has a few main hits that can be avoided and lined up for good damage, but can be made proportionately stronger if for whatever reason it is underwhelming. In exchange you get your second evade (which is also a 2nd on demand ambush btw) and open up the utility bar - This like now would be a sPvP change and WvW change; so PvE can still run around with it's condi specs without change.

 

8 hours ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

You can literally line of sight it. You are acting like ranger never has to weapon swap.

Because a broken line of sight with a 12 second buffer isn't a huge deal and simply offers counterplay on both sides. If you're not engaged it doesn't matter so much unless your goal is shatter combo, and you are relying on your opponent not knowing you're there. In which case even a weapon like this would be valuable since they'd have reliable escape on par with thief.
 

8 hours ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

But if you want to compare us to rangers. Why are you so insistent that Mirage be given the tools to run without inspiration when most rangers are running Wilderness Survival?

Inspiration and Wilderness Survival are not equal... On top of having weapon sets that have multiple extra evades or long duration blocks, Natural Virgor gives 25% endurance refill that can stack with vigor, and the entire line offers huge amounts of synergistic HP regen that goes beyond a boon, and options for good condi mitigation; most of which just ticks in the background.

What does inspiration get? Minors: 1 condi cleans on heal for you and allies, Aegis to allies on 4th shatter, and heal allies when you heal... Most of this line is support for allies. Don't get me wrong you get some decent picks and some strong condi clense in the selectable traits but none if it is comparable to Wilderness Survival, it's only picked now because blurred inscriptions is used to fill the gaps from all the nerfs, and being honest the best way to even make use of it's stats is when carried by cele PvE stats in WvW. Because sPvP mirage would probably prefer dom for the utility or dueling (maybe even chaos for stability).

In terms of defenses, Inspiration exists to bring mirage back to the normal standard, maybe a tiny bit over with huge tradeoffs to your utility bar; Wilderness survival enhances beyond the standard and does not burden any build.

 

8 hours ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

There is certainly an argument to be had that power mirage doesn't do enough damage running a defensive trait line. But the solution is not to buff mirage survivability to the point it doesn't need to. Because then the people that do run more tanky are now unkillable.

Funny you bring this up while talking about ranger when dueling tournaments in the past would ban the use of wilderness survival with beast master. (I have no idea what the state of such a scene is now; if it even exists any more... Changes like what was made to mirage is why sPvP bleeds itself out.)

But to your point, See what I said about the difference between wilderness survival and inspiration, but more than that even IF something like blurred inscriptions was overpowered, it would make far more sense to nerf blurred inscriptions- a trait that only got distortion added to it 6 years after being added to the game and was upgraded to a grand master when the entire inspiration line got shuffled around.

If there is an imbalance in WvW and PvP, fixing that makes FAR more sense than gutting an entire elite spec, that was based around deceiving, evading, and teleporting. Cuz now it evades less than ranger and thief (hell it has less on demand damage mitigation than EVERY medium armor class, and I may even throw ele and rev in here), ports around opponents less than a thief - even at it's prime couldn't do the same "in your face and out" gameplay, and beyond the fact that illusions really don't throw people off too much because of boons- they are manipulated the same as any AI- and the game has to much AoE and cleave; But you can't even pretend to be a clone when you have signets sitting under your bar.

 

8 hours ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

But you are approaching it from the wrong part of the equation. It needs more damage for a being glass cannon. Not to make more bunker specs.

I'm sorry but thief exists, be it through evasion like on DD or perma stealth on DE, hell even base thief has more on demand evasion, 6kish difference HP doesn't add substantial bulk in a game where 5k+ is part of the norm, if you don't get hit, can't be targeted, or can escape for free on a whiff: That is way more sustain and survivability; Your argument is invalid.

Edited December 8, 2021 by Daishi.6027

[Daniel Handler.4816]

4 hours ago, Daishi.6027 said:

I think you are mistaken on what I am referring to. I'm talking about a full reversion to season 9 Mirage. Before jaunt nerfs, before any condi shaves, before anything affected survivability. 2 dodges, ect.

If it was at that stage the output as in "avoidable or unavoidable damage sources" and application (in relation to condi) should have been equalized to same as power, at that stage of the game; it would be perfectly viable since nerfs were coming, and now it would exist with the two evades. It was not OP at higher ranks even then (despite the amount of ppl crying about it) but it did over perform to a degree A-net was not gonna let it go, and it would not be OP now if we consider things like mirage cloak duration, and Evasive mirror nerfs would stick (because obviously). It would function with the same two evades as everyone else has now, have more jaunts, etc. AND power can exits along side it.

There are no negatives, it would function very well, and if anything it would be a side grade to what we have now. Instead of less survivability and tying it to supplementing from inspiration and sigils. The output has a few main hits that can be avoided and lined up for good damage, but can be made proportionately stronger if for whatever reason it is underwhelming. In exchange you get your second evade (which is also a 2nd on demand ambush btw) and open up the utility bar - This like now would be a sPvP change and WvW change; so PvE can still run around with it's condi specs without change.

 

Because a broken line of sight with a 12 second buffer isn't a huge deal and simply offers counterplay on both sides. If you're not engaged it doesn't matter so much unless your goal is shatter combo, and you are relying on your opponent not knowing you're there. In which case even a weapon like this would be valuable since they'd have reliable escape on par with thief.
 

Inspiration and Wilderness Survival are not equal... On top of having weapon sets that have multiple extra evades or long duration blocks, Natural Virgor gives 25% endurance refill that can stack with vigor, and the entire line offers huge amounts of synergistic HP regen that goes beyond a boon, and options for good condi mitigation; most of which just ticks in the background.

What does inspiration get? Minors: 1 condi cleans on heal for you and allies, Aegis to allies on 4th shatter, and heal allies when you heal... Most of this line is support for allies. Don't get me wrong you get some decent picks and some strong condi clense in the selectable traits but none if it is comparable to Wilderness Survival, it's only picked now because blurred inscriptions is used to fill the gaps from all the nerfs, and being honest the best way to even make use of it's stats is when carried by cele PvE stats in WvW. Because sPvP mirage would probably prefer dom for the utility or dueling (maybe even chaos for stability).

In terms of defenses, Inspiration exists to bring mirage back to the normal standard, maybe a tiny bit over with huge tradeoffs to your utility bar; Wilderness survival enhances beyond the standard and does not burden any build.

 

Funny you bring this up while talking about ranger when dueling tournaments in the past would ban the use of wilderness survival with beast master. (I have no idea what the state of such a scene is now; if it even exists any more... Changes like what was made to mirage is why sPvP bleeds itself out.)

But to your point, See what I said about the difference between wilderness survival and inspiration, but more than that even IF something like blurred inscriptions was overpowered, it would make far more sense to nerf blurred inscriptions- a trait that only got distortion added to it 6 years after being added to the game and was upgraded to a grand master when the entire inspiration line got shuffled around.

If there is an imbalance in WvW and PvP, fixing that makes FAR more sense than gutting an entire elite spec, that was based around deceiving, evading, and teleporting. Cuz now it evades less than ranger and thief (hell it has less on demand damage mitigation than EVERY medium armor class, and I may even throw ele and rev in here), ports around opponents less than a thief - even at it's prime couldn't do the same "in your face and out" gameplay, and beyond the fact that illusions really don't throw people off too much because of boons- they are manipulated the same as any AI- and the game has to much AoE and cleave; But you can't even pretend to be a clone when you have signets sitting under your bar.

I'm sorry but thief exists, be it through evasion like on DD or perma stealth on DE, hell even base thief has more on demand evasion, 6kish difference HP doesn't add substantial bulk in a game where 5k+ is part of the norm, if you don't get hit, can't be targeted, or can escape for free on a whiff: That is way more sustain and survivability; Your argument is invalid.

Okay this is getting a little ridiculous. No we don't need a return of season 9 mirage so people can bunker.  Especially not stunbreaking on dodge. 

And no it doesn't make far more sense to rebalance a core trait line to prevent said bunkering when that would affect all mesmer elite specs/core. 

Inspiration doesn't exist to bring mirage back to the normal standard. Mirage exists to be a defensive/condi trait line to used in lieu of, or in tandem with inspiration.

And do you see Daredevil running two offensive trait lines with glass cannon utilities?

No power class runs the equivalent of domination and dueling with damage utilities. Why would mesmer be unique?

I'm trying not to be a kitten. But are you actually someone that was high platinum/legendary during season 9, and now you can't be competitive in ATs and dueling tournaments?  

If on demand survivability should be proportionate to damage why can't they increase the damage and we make use of numerous defensive utilities and a defensive trait line like every other class? 

Edited December 8, 2021 by Daniel Handler.4816

[Daishi.6027]

14 hours ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

Okay this is getting a little ridiculous. No we don't need a return of season 9 mirage so people can bunker.  Especially not stunbreaking on dodge. 

Annnnnddd here we are. Remember the entire conceit of the argument; Power had this and it was not overperforming. If you want to argue otherwise that's fine, incredibly funny, but fine. Regardless I'm referring to it as a baseline and balancing condi in a different line from there, I already said some nerfs would stick, I didn't specificy that one but I'd argue that was one of the more obvious nerfs along with mirage cloak duration and evasive mirror, I never gave an exhaustive list. If you want to use season 10, maybe 11 I'd be fine with that too; So long as things like core and mirage vigor generation restored, jaunt getting it's default usage back, and maybe illusionary ambush c/d restored. (Particularly if they are dead set on Mirage advance continue to be garbage.)
 

14 hours ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

And no it doesn't make far more sense to rebalance a core trait line to prevent said bunkering when that would affect all mesmer elite specs/core. 

It only came in after heavy mirage nerfs, and was only moderately used because of a lack of synergy. A few using them to supplement from the nerfs, and I'd argue it's only waned.

Condi Core only uses it on F2P accounts, relying on it to win duels as an alternative to Power when ppl can't land shatter combo and will eventually graduate to shatter when they get good, or buy PoF for condi mirage. <- This is the only viable PvP build that suffers.
Celestial in WvW has the best synergy with the entire inspiration line and that isn't predicate on blurred inscriptions, but it does make it stronger. However if ambush triggering off it was removed I doubt it would be as mandatory. But the point is moot with what I'm suggesting Celestial, infact ALL current builds WvW would still be equally effective not more so, not less so; I don't see the problem.

More over you're the one who's pretty adamant to argue about Mirage's "Must be condi!"; well Mesmer was never designed to be a bunker, and has no viable bunker build in PvP since chrono lost distortion, let alone core mes even with the trait. (I'd argue before that even, but I'm giving some leeway for the rando who just absolutely loves chronobunk and stuck with it up till now. Bless their tenacity.) Unless you mean something else by bunker, but then we're only going to be arguing semantics of a term.

 

14 hours ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

Inspiration doesn't exist to bring mirage back to the normal standard. Mirage exists to be a defensive/condi trait line to used in lieu of, or in tandem with inspiration.

Ya and look what happened, instead of nerfing condi mirage in the proper way; that being the method, output, and application of condis, it gut the class into a clunky mes AFTER all these other defensive nerfs.

If the latter was true WvW cele wouldn't be the only one to rely on it, because literally no other viable build requires it. Except maybe for condi clense in a revenge matchup; but that's distinctly different than the one GM trait that requires you to commit your utility bar to...

Also if the latter was true it wouldn't have come out after a TON of evasion nerfs, the exactly the same patch following elusive mind's exhaustion nerf, and was followed soon after to the jaunt nerfs and more. Given how long A-net takes to design anything, it was literally the crux to all the defensive nerfs and A-nets answer to condi mirage. CMC just put the nail in the coffin and included the removal of the second evade.

This trait never needed to exist other than to justify inspiration rework, and I said so at the time.

And it's STILL a double standard to something like wilderness survival that has majority of the synergy built into the line without being predicate on committing a bar of utilities to allow you to defend.

14 hours ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

And do you see Daredevil running two offensive trait lines with glass cannon utilities?

No because they only need 1 to be effective against tankier targets, and don't even need to take an offensive line against squishies. Then they can pick whatever else they like only thing mandatory is trickery to out-cooldown the majority of the game.

Power Mesmer of any variety needs two to be equivalent.
 

 

14 hours ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

No power class runs the equivalent of domination and dueling with damage utilities. Why would mesmer be unique?

I'm not sure what you're asking here, why? because it just is. If you're asking me to theorize I mean...  This game has always been pretty bias against mesmers, Loooooot of double standards from devs (at the testimony of top players between 2013 - 2015) to the player base calling for nerfs to everything else when it's only real roll is moa and portal, to the balance discord suspecting things that are clearly balanced on an underperforming build. 

Also Mesmer, base mesmer is pretty poorly designed, it really needs an elite spec to pretty much "fix" it one way or another. Otherwise best you get in competitive modes is a one shot build that is objectively worse than thief even before the nerfs. And mirage is the only class that gets a stupid clunky and poorly designed art aesthetic as a class mechanic. 🙄
 

14 hours ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

I'm trying not to be a kitten. But are you actually someone that was high platinum/legendary during season 9, and now you can't be competitive in ATs and dueling tournaments?  

I've been high plat/legend since that became a thing. I stopped playing seriously when they took away mirage's second dodge in protest. Sure I stuck around a bit to see how it was, and I gotta say after literal years of adapting to garbage changes like this; it was the final straw. This pile of garbage clearly being the worst of them all, but with A-nets attitude towards the class, I was out. I'm a mesmer main who went thief for matches that actually mattered or to gain rating as early as 2013, ranger is just easy and I feel like it just plays itself so I picked that up, but mainly only duel with it. I used to run ele long ago but my passion is for Mesmer, and Mesmer is THE ONLY class I play in PvE and the only true non dueling PvP character on my main account, and frankly power mesmer is the only class I want to enjoy.

I do harp on season 9 - 11ish or whatever, but that's because that's when Power Mirage was viable, fun, and probably the most balanced matchup against the greatest amount of the roster in the entire history of the game.

But it was a slow decline and something I took in stride, but everytime, every kitten season they kept taking something away from power mesmers. And none of it was justified, it was done to curtail the prevalence of Condi mirage, and for all your complaints and arguemnts to preserve inspiration a lot of the nerfs were core. Season 12 they nerfed blurred frenzy evade duration and hurt jaunt. Around 13 they nerfed CORE mesmer's AND mirage's vigor generation . 14 They took away the stun in domination, incidentally that was when after taking away so much they realized (or more likely it was planned since they redid an entire trait line) they give us blurred inscriptions after all these massive stupid nerfs to core and mirage alike, something power couldn't feasibly use. Yet that wasn't even the end of it. They nerfed Jaunt more, Illusionary ambush, eventually came mirage cloak, etc etc etc. And I kept on, I lost interest, my PvE account became more and more derelict (Call it weird, but if PvP isn't fun I can't enjoy living in PvE), and I didn't queue as often but I still played, would make it to plat then not want to play; hop in every now and then to fight decay. Them just flat out taking out the second evade was the last god kitten straw, and I wasn't going to play anymore. Including End of Dragons, especially with what we've seen of virtuoso. The fun was gone and Power all that time never over performed, was never fixed, and the slot placements can corroborate just how effective the game saw it.

kitten A-net, and kitten you for defending them and calling into question my aptitude.

 

14 hours ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

If on demand survivability should be proportionate to damage why can't they increase the damage and we make use of numerous defensive utilities and a defensive trait line like every other class? 

Well that would be fine, if it was like illusonary ambush and mirage advance wasn't a kitten version of infiltrators strike with a stupid cast time, or if it had like thieves' roll for initiative and shadow step.

Also 1. Signets were never supposed to be defensive tools in this way, A-net just shoved it in there 6 years into the game when trying to find a GM for inspiration ppl would actually use, and while trying to get people to actually use signets.
and 2. Signets are antithetical to the entire class when they make you even more easily identifiable from illusions. That goes doubly for mirage since that's the only time target break and shuffling yourself became a thing.
3. This can be accomplished and balanced around having two evades and not having to Pidgeon hole a traitline with no synergy for anything other than celestial in wvw.

Edited December 8, 2021 by Daishi.6027

[Yoci.2481]

Thank you @Daishi.6027 for standing up for us all! 💓

[Daniel Handler.4816]

11 hours ago, Daishi.6027 said:

Annnnnddd here we are. Remember the entire conceit of the argument; Power had this and it was not overperforming. If you want to argue otherwise that's fine, incredibly funny, but fine. Regardless I'm referring to it as a baseline and balancing condi in a different line from there, I already said some nerfs would stick, I didn't specificy that one but I'd argue that was one of the more obvious nerfs along with mirage cloak duration and evasive mirror, I never gave an exhaustive list. If you want to use season 10, maybe 11 I'd be fine with that too; So long as things like core and mirage vigor generation restored, jaunt getting it's default usage back, and maybe illusionary ambush c/d restored. (Particularly if they are dead set on Mirage advance continue to be garbage.)
 

It only came in after heavy mirage nerfs, and was only moderately used because of a lack of synergy. A few using them to supplement from the nerfs, and I'd argue it's only waned.

Condi Core only uses it on F2P accounts, relying on it to win duels as an alternative to Power when ppl can't land shatter combo and will eventually graduate to shatter when they get good, or buy PoF for condi mirage. <- This is the only viable PvP build that suffers.
Celestial in WvW has the best synergy with the entire inspiration line and that isn't predicate on blurred inscriptions, but it does make it stronger. However if ambush triggering off it was removed I doubt it would be as mandatory. But the point is moot with what I'm suggesting Celestial, infact ALL current builds WvW would still be equally effective not more so, not less so; I don't see the problem.

More over you're the one who's pretty adamant to argue about Mirage's "Must be condi!"; well Mesmer was never designed to be a bunker, and has no viable bunker build in PvP since chrono lost distortion, let alone core mes even with the trait. (I'd argue before that even, but I'm giving some leeway for the rando who just absolutely loves chronobunk and stuck with it up till now. Bless their tenacity.) Unless you mean something else by bunker, but then we're only going to be arguing semantics of a term.

I think this somewhere where you and the developers are philosophically at odds on game design.

You say it wasn't broken. They say mirage cloak should never have been in the game. And they produce something like virtuoso to address the concept of counterplay. They want glass cannons to be glass .

In addition they have minimal development time. At this stage the most likely "fix" they would implement would be to up the power damage on mirage. Just a simple number change. It would benefit the people who "graduated" while keeping bunkery specs (and tanks in other games modes) that run inspiration at their current level of defenses.

Quote

Ya and look what happened, instead of nerfing condi mirage in the proper way; that being the method, output, and application of condis, it gut the class into a clunky mes AFTER all these other defensive nerfs.

If the latter was true WvW cele wouldn't be the only one to rely on it, because literally no other viable build requires it. Except maybe for condi clense in a revenge matchup; but that's distinctly different than the one GM trait that requires you to commit your utility bar to...

Also if the latter was true it wouldn't have come out after a TON of evasion nerfs, the exactly the same patch following elusive mind's exhaustion nerf, and was followed soon after to the jaunt nerfs and more. Given how long A-net takes to design anything, it was literally the crux to all the defensive nerfs and A-nets answer to condi mirage. CMC just put the nail in the coffin and included the removal of the second evade.

This trait never needed to exist other than to justify inspiration rework, and I said so at the time.

And it's STILL a double standard to something like wilderness survival that has majority of the synergy built into the line without being predicate on committing a bar of utilities to allow you to defend.

No because they only need 1 to be effective against tankier targets, and don't even need to take an offensive line against squishies. Then they can pick whatever else they like only thing mandatory is trickery to out-cooldown the majority of the game.

Power Mesmer of any variety needs two to be equivalent.
 

I'm not sure what you're asking here, why? because it just is. If you're asking me to theorize I mean...  This game has always been pretty bias against mesmers, Loooooot of double standards from devs (at the testimony of top players between 2013 - 2015) to the player base calling for nerfs to everything else when it's only real roll is moa and portal, to the balance discord suspecting things that are clearly balanced on an underperforming build. 

Also Mesmer, base mesmer is pretty poorly designed, it really needs an elite spec to pretty much "fix" it one way or another. Otherwise best you get in competitive modes is a one shot build that is objectively worse than thief even before the nerfs. And mirage is the only class that gets a stupid clunky and poorly designed art aesthetic as a class mechanic. 🙄
 

I've been high plat/legend since that became a thing. I stopped playing seriously when they took away mirage's second dodge in protest. Sure I stuck around a bit to see how it was, and I gotta say after literal years of adapting to garbage changes like this; it was the final straw. (this pile of garbage clearly being the worst of them all, but A-nets attitude towards the class, I was out. I'm a mesmer main who went thief for matches that actually mattered or to gain rating as early as 2013, ranger is just easy and I feel like it just plays itself so I picked that up, but mainly only duel with it. I used to run ele long ago but my passion is for Mesmer, and Mesmer is THE ONLY class I play in PvE and the only true non PvP character on my main account, and frankly power mesmer is the only class I want to enjoy.

I do harp on season 9 - 11ish or whatever, but that's because that's when Power Mirage was viable, fun, and probably the most balanced matchup against the greatest amount of the roster in the entire history of the game.

But it was a slow decline and something I took in stride, but everytime, every kitten season they kept taking something away from power mesmers. And none of it was justified, it was done to curtail the prevalence of Condi mirage, and for all your complaints and arguemnts to preserve inspiration a lot of the nerfs were core. Season 12 they nerfed blurred frenzy evade duration and hurt jaunt. Around 13 they nerfed CORE mesmer's AND mirage's vigor generation . 14 They took away the stun in domination, incidentally that was when after taking away so much they realized (or more likely it was planned since they redid an entire trait line) they give us blurred inscriptions after all these massive stupid nerfs to core and mirage alike, something power couldn't feasibly use. Yet that wasn't even the end of it. They nerfed Jaunt more, Illusionary ambush, eventually came mirage cloak, etc etc etc. And I kept on, I lost interest and didn't queue as often but I still played would make it to plat then not want to play, hop in every now and then to fight decay. Them just flat out taking out the second evade was the last god kitten straw, and I wasn't going to play anymore, the fun was gone and Power all that time never over performed and the slot placements can corroborate just how effective the game saw it.

If it was just to curtail the prevalence of Condi mirage then virtuoso would not exist.

We wouldn't have a power spec where the only inborn defense is aegis and a little regen. And our on demand invuln would not be reduced to a block, where true invuln comes with a massive dps loss.

You may not believe mesmer has too many defenses vs a daredevil or ranger. But explicitly via comments over the years, and implicitly via their changes, that does not seem to be their opinion.

Quote

kitten A-net, and kitten you for defending them and calling into question my aptitude.

Well that would be fine, if it was like illusonary ambush and mirage advance wasn't a kitten version of infiltrators strike with a stupid cast time, or if it had like thieves' roll for initiative and shadow step.

Also 1. Signets were never supposed to be defensive tools in this way, A-net just shoved it in there 6 years into the game when trying to find a GM for inspiration ppl would actually use, and while trying to get people to actually use signets.
and 2. Signets are antithetical to the entire class when they make you even more easily identifiable from illusions. That goes doubly for mirage since that's the only time target break and shuffling yourself became a thing.
3. This can be accomplished and balanced around having two evades and not having to Pidgeon hole a traitline with no synergy for anything other than celestial in wvw.

 

There are a wide range of skill levels of people playing this game.

I defended the staff/staff mirage build in PvE against being nerfed, because most people cannot reach the benchmark on axe mirage, and PvE is not a competitive game mode.

I am not trying to be mean. I'm not going to be winning ATs anytime soon on any class. 

If you were platinum/legendary then you should be equally aware there are people worse than you, and better than you, at using mesmers inborn defenses and additional tactics like kiting etc. And how easy it is to make new players lives miserable on Mesmer.

Your argument can be distilled to there is too much counterplay for the level of skill required for power mirage (and virtuoso), vs the counterplay/skill on other professions in the sPvP meta. So much so that a damage increase would not fix the problem. Discussing skill is unavoidable.

It is helpful information for the developers that you were at the top and still wouldn't be able to cut it, even with more damage. I dont know how much that is going to change their opinion. Perhaps if more top players came forward things would change.

4 hours ago, Yoci.2481 said:

Thank you @Daishi.6027 for standing up for us all! 💓

I didn't react to your comment with confused.

I am trying to avoid elitism. And I have stood up for a wide range of players in other game modes for other reasons. Just not this discussion. I just dont feel our lack of defense is nearly as severe as some players are making it sound.

Edited December 8, 2021 by Daniel Handler.4816

[Daishi.6027]

7 hours ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

They want glass cannons to be glass .

Maybe this is the case but that's a double standard, other builds/classes still exists, have not been gutted in a similar way, and survive more.
 

7 hours ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

You say it wasn't broken. They say mirage cloak should never have been in the game. And they produce something like virtuoso to address the concept of counterplay.

Lol... Ya the counter play by the metric of the whole of the entire history of the game, including builds STILL IN THE GAME; is just by being ineffective. Great counter play design a-net, seems fair 🙄

As for Mirage cloak, maybe that is where we sit at odds; however the numbers, ratings, and placements, shown for power at the time proves it can be curtailed in a way that doesn't make an entire subclass clunky.

 

7 hours ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

In addition they have minimal development time. At this stage the most likely "fix" they would implement would be to up the power damage on mirage. It would benefit the people who "graduated" while keeping bunkery specs (and tanks in other games modes) that run inspiration at their current level of defenses.

This wont and probably can't happen. You give such a buff and sage amulet will likely become overbearing.

As for the "minimal development time" Ya, and they are spending time making virtuoso which so far is worse than core. No one who cares about power mesmer should be buying end of dragons.
 

 

7 hours ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

If it was just to curtail the prevalence of Condi mirage then virtuoso would not exist.
 

We wouldn't have a power spec where the only inborn defense is aegis and a little regen. And our on demand invuln would not be reduced to a block, where true invuln comes with a massive dps loss.

I don't know how you draw this conclusion unless you're somehow implying virtuoso is supposed to run inspiration with signets?... 

Except Virtuoso isn't substantially better than core in damage, which alternatively does have invuln and a oneshot combo. Soo how do you square that out?

 

 

7 hours ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

You may not believe mesmer has too many defense vs a daredevil or ranger. But explicitly via comments over the years, and implicitly via their changes, that does not seem to be their opinion.

This is why appeals to popularity are fallacious, and they are balancing based upon outcry of bads. The bold part of your statement I highlighted was tested back around the seasons I've been harping on, and DD came out with more sustain/mitigation uptime and that test didn't even include blinds, but did include mirage mirrors which are markedly worse than an on demand button press. Now I ask you; who got substantial nerfs, and who for the most part remained the same? This is a clear double standard. Regardless of what A-net, Karl, CMC, the balance discord, the bads who have been crying about mesmer's since it's conception believe: 
"Some may avert their eyes, but the truth remains the truth." -Karla DS3

 

 

7 hours ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

If you were platinum/legendary then you should be equally aware there are people worse than you, and better than you, at using mesmers inborn defenses and additional tactics like kiting etc. And how easy it is to make new players lives miserable on Mesmer.

For the people better than me... There was not an over abundance of condi mirage in top slots at the time, and even less power. For AT I don't fully recall, but I remember something along the lines of ppl arguing about despite the amount of ppl playing it, there wasn't a ton of them in top placements for ATs at the time either. So I fail to see how that's an issue.

And for the people worse; at a certain point they need to get good and learn to adapt. I've been adapting to garbage since 2012, but if you'll humor me another quote: "Dark were the skies and chilled was the wind, but the casuals cried so they nerfed the weather!" - Total Biscuit. Mesmer as a whole was not over performing at the top, and only stomping newbs who get lost in clones stuck in silver and low gold; that isn't justification for nerfs unless you want a bad game. Looking at sPvP's numbers, I think they chose the latter. 

 

 

7 hours ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

Your argument can be distilled to there is too much counterplay for the level of skill required for power mirage (and virtuoso), vs the counterplay/skill on other professions in the sPvP meta. So much so that a damage increase would not fix the problem. Discussing skill is unavoidable.

I mean that misses some of the nuance, but I'll respond to the bold to be specific: Because it wont. Because we have precedent from other classes. Because we have an entire history of the game from 2012 to easily predict this. And we have beta testing to exemplify it.

idk what else there is to say honestly. We can pretend that it's useful information to them; but they've had the numbers forever they know the score, if they don't know the disparity between every medium class and a mesmer they are willfully ignorant. But more likely is that they are far more willing to listen to cry babies who don't want to improve, then go foisting that burden onto the mesmer. It's like giving the guy who plays ele and doesn't want to change attunement some sort of say in balance, there's a billion reasons why for a healthy game that shouldn't happen.

If A-net can pull something off before release of EoD and give us something that's actually viable sure; fine. But my days of being cautiously optimistic are over. They had their chance, literal years of chance, almost a decade now.

 

7 hours ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

12 hours ago, Yoci.2481 said:

Thank you @Daishi.6027 for standing up for us all! 💓

I didn't react to your comment with confused.

Nice of you to not do that, and thank you Yoci.

Edited December 9, 2021 by Daishi.6027

[Hot Boy.7138]

i'd return to the game if they brought back the second dodge.  That february 2020 updated ruined all the fun i had 

[Salt Mode.3780]

10 hours ago, Hot Boy.7138 said:

i'd return to the game if they brought back the second dodge.  That february 2020 updated ruined all the fun i had 

Yet people till this day stand by the 2020 update and defends it. Its quite hilarious.

[Hot Boy.7138]

On 12/7/2021 at 6:10 PM, Leonidrex.5649 said:

people want to play power mirage because it's unique, fun and interactive build.
Its actually exceptionally fun to play, I sometimes come back to power mirage despite it being a bad and me being bad at it its this enjoyable. It brings unique feel that no other builds brings.
THIS is why people will defend power mirage, we know mirage was made as a condi spec, but honestly the power one is more fun all around and I see no reason not to cultivate that.
They made something amazing as a byproduct and instead off cultivating it they threw it in a trash and that is just pathetic IMO

I agree. Power mirage is by far the most I've ever had in this game. It is the perfect sword/sword build. It's too bad anet didn't want to support it. 

[Daniel Handler.4816]

On 12/8/2021 at 2:27 PM, Daishi.6027 said:

Maybe this is the case but that's a double standard, other builds/classes still exists, have not been gutted in a similar way, and survive more.
 

Lol... Ya the counter play by the metric of the whole of the entire history of the game, including builds STILL IN THE GAME; is just by being ineffective. Great counter play design a-net, seems fair 🙄

As for Mirage cloak, maybe that is where we sit at odds; however the numbers, ratings, and placements, shown for power at the time proves it can be curtailed in a way that doesn't make an entire subclass clunky.

 

This wont and probably can't happen. You give such a buff and sage amulet will likely become overbearing.

As for the "minimal development time" Ya, and they are spending time making virtuoso which so far is worse than core. No one who cares about power mesmer should be buying end of dragons.
 

 

I don't know how you draw this conclusion unless you're somehow implying virtuoso is supposed to run inspiration with signets?... 

Except Virtuoso isn't substantially better than core in damage, which alternatively does have invuln and a oneshot combo. Soo how do you square that out?

 

 

This is why appeals to popularity are fallacious, and they are balancing based upon outcry of bads. The bold part of your statement I highlighted was tested back around the seasons I've been harping on, and DD came out with more sustain/mitigation uptime and that test didn't even include blinds, but did include mirage mirrors which are markedly worse than an on demand button press. Now I ask you; who got substantial nerfs, and who for the most part remained the same? This is a clear double standard. Regardless of what A-net, Karl, CMC, the balance discord, the bads who have been crying about mesmer's since it's conception believe: 
"Some may avert their eyes, but the truth remains the truth." -Karla DS3

 

 

For the people better than me... There was not an over abundance of condi mirage in top slots at the time, and even less power. For AT I don't fully recall, but I remember something along the lines of ppl arguing about despite the amount of ppl playing it, there wasn't a ton of them in top placements for ATs at the time either. So I fail to see how that's an issue.

And for the people worse; at a certain point they need to get good and learn to adapt. I've been adapting to garbage since 2012, but if you'll humor me another quote: "Dark were the skies and chilled was the wind, but the casuals cried so they nerfed the weather!" - Total Biscuit. Mesmer as a whole was not over performing at the top, and only stomping newbs who get lost in clones stuck in silver and low gold; that isn't justification for nerfs unless you want a bad game. Looking at sPvP's numbers, I think they chose the latter. 

 

 

I mean that misses some of the nuance, but I'll respond to the bold to be specific: Because it wont. Because we have precedent from other classes. Because we have an entire history of the game from 2012 to easily predict this. And we have beta testing to exemplify it.

idk what else there is to say honestly. We can pretend that it's useful information to them; but they've had the numbers forever they know the score, if they don't know the disparity between every medium class and a mesmer they are willfully ignorant. But more likely is that they are far more willing to listen to cry babies who don't want to improve, then go foisting that burden onto the mesmer. It's like giving the guy who plays ele and doesn't want to change attunement some sort of say in balance, there's a billion reasons why for a healthy game that shouldn't happen.

If A-net can pull something off before release of EoD and give us something that's actually viable sure; fine. But my days of being cautiously optimistic are over. They had their chance, literal years of chance, almost a decade now.

 

Nice of you to not do that, and thank you Yoci.

If the nerfs were just to curtail condi and not also power they would not have come out with an ultra glass power spec like virtuoso. Clearly they dont think power needs that many defenses either.

But anyway test this build out [&DQcKNRc6OxYjDwAAZwEAAIMBAABlAQAARhcAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA=]
zerker, lynx, doom +energy sw/sw +gs

You reminded me that signets proc ambush.
And the whole f3 not scaling with power made me thing of power block.

Edited December 10, 2021 by Daniel Handler.4816

[Salt Mode.3780]

Funny you are mentioning power block because at the PvP forums people are asking for it to be nerfed. Quite hilarious that its mostly a utility trait now because it cannot crit.

[Senqu.8054]

On 12/4/2021 at 10:45 AM, Senqu.8054 said:

Glamour Confusion Trait

Glamour Super Speed Trait

Clone HP trait

Clone does condis when downed trait 

Blind on Chaos armor

Blind on all shatter skills trait

GS damage Nerv

Phantasms now spawn only 1 time

Phantasm skills now perform an attack that reveals the Mesmer

Staff iWorlock from 2 to 1 in PvP/WvW

Staff iWorlock attack change from one hit to channel beam

Core Elite Skills CD increase

Focus 4 from instant cast to having a internal CD before activation

boon share signet (!!!!) deleted but given to another espec

Portal duration

Veil CD increased 

Distortion F4 on chrono

Distortion on Well

Distortion group share

 

just to name a few older ones 

out of discussion but wanted to make it more complete. The community should know how much mesmer lost

iWorlock summoned 3x Winds of Chaos - deleted (not gonna cry on that one but why adding it in the first place then?)

iWorlock dealt more damage for each condition on the enemy - deleted

IWorlock got an 50% nerf AND was reduced from 2 to 1 phantasm btw.

For each illusion more movement speed trait - deleted

for each mantra more % damage - deleted

3 activations for each mantra trait - deleted (and given to another class)

Mantras can’t be prepared anymore

Pistol 4 was able to combo with focus 4 and other glamours to stack confusion - nerfed by 80% (basically deleted)

Phantasmal disenchanted 50% dmg nerf

Due to no blind on all shatter skills no Confusion on all shatter skills (only F2 now)

Chaos armor dmg reduction and staff cd reduction trait splittend

Shattering an illusion to receive for every shattered illusion might - trait has been exchanged to: entering stealth will creat a clone(and isn’t used since then)

Method of Madness: Chaosstorm on heal skill cd increase from 30 something seconds to 75 seconds

All wells end well: Chrono Wells apply alacrity when they end trait - exchanged to chrono wells heal when they end (never used since then)

Desperate decoy: CD increase to 120s (never used since then)

Mental Defense: cast iDefender on dodge cd increase to 90s

Presence of memory: reduced the cd of every shattered phantasm - was exchanged to phantasm transfer boons on mesmer (never really used since then)

Phantasmal force nerfed by 50%

Power Block cannot crit anymore 

 

Edit:

 

Chrono shield 4: Phantasm: 50% dmg nerf

Chrono shield 4: Alacrity application deleted

Chrono shield 4: block duration decreased from 2.25 s to 1.5 (not gonna lie that was fine) BUT:

Chrono shield 4: CD increase to 35 (!!!) seconds in PvP (making it garbage)

Chrono shield 5: Quickness changed to alacrity to prevent faster bursts

Chrono shield 5: targeting mechanism exchanged to ground target (I personally hate it)

Well of Precognition: distortion was exchanged to aegis (making it a useless skill)

Alacrity: Was nerfed from 66% to 33% to 25% all okey, if not:

Improved Alacrity: improved alacrity duration by 50% was changed to improves recharge speed to 50% and decreases duration by 33% (alacrity was nerfed and then brought back by a trait.

Arcane Thievery: LoS thingy (as it seems it’s called like that according to the community)

Jaunt: 50% damage nerf

Jaunt: 50% condi damage nerf

Jaunt: reduced stack from 3 to 2 AND increasing CD to 30s

Chaos Storm: doesnt any longer daze on followed up strikes

Chaos Storm is btw one of the few weapon skills with more then 30s cd and only a daze for that

Chaotic Interrupt: changed from boon and immob when interrupt to literal garbage

Blurred Frenzy: duration changed from 1,75s to 1s AND changing distortion to evade

Minor Adept trait Illusion: all shatter skills inflict confusion was changed to only F2 inflicts confusion

Don’t forget torment change

Dont forget Confusion change

 

Honorable mentions:

 

Phantasmal Fury: This trait applies furry to phantasms for exactly 10s in PvE, PvP and WvW since 2012 This is an accomplishment.

Edited December 22, 2021 by Senqu.8054

[Yoci.2481]

Feels bad.

[Zraurum.8493]

Here it is not even necessary to return the dodge, but also to restore the work of some of the skills.

[SoulGuardian.6203]

I would like a normal dodge for Mirage in WvW.

I don't mind it in pve, but it's blatantly useless in WvW.

 

I really enjoy playing with it, and find the distortion effects to be really cool.

But when you see your team dodging almost every arrow cart and mortar attack, and you get a bomb shell right in the melon or an arrow up the a... backside; it's not fun at all.

Then, you see them dashing off into the horizon while you count the milliseconds until you get ran over by a stampede of ravious, bloodthirsty foes.

[Senqu.8054]

On 12/11/2021 at 1:40 AM, Senqu.8054 said:

out of discussion but wanted to make it more complete. The community should know how much mesmer lost

iWorlock summoned 3x Winds of Chaos - deleted (not gonna cry on that one but why adding it in the first place then?)

iWorlock dealt more damage for each condition on the enemy - deleted

IWorlock got an 50% nerf AND was reduced from 2 to 1 phantasm btw.

For each illusion more movement speed trait - deleted

for each mantra more % damage - deleted

3 activations for each mantra trait - deleted (and given to another class)

Mantras can’t be prepared anymore

Pistol 4 was able to combo with focus 4 and other glamours to stack confusion - nerfed by 80% (basically deleted)

Phantasmal disenchanted 50% dmg nerf

Due to no blind on all shatter skills no Confusion on all shatter skills (only F2 now)

Chaos armor dmg reduction and staff cd reduction trait splittend

Shattering an illusion to receive for every shattered illusion might - trait has been exchanged to: entering stealth will creat a clone(and isn’t used since then)

Method of Madness: Chaosstorm on heal skill cd increase from 30 something seconds to 75 seconds

All wells end well: Chrono Wells apply alacrity when they end trait - exchanged to chrono wells heal when they end (never used since then)

Desperate decoy: CD increase to 120s (never used since then)

Mental Defense: cast iDefender on dodge cd increase to 90s

Presence of memory: reduced the cd of every shattered phantasm - was exchanged to phantasm transfer boons on mesmer (never really used since then)

Phantasmal force nerfed by 50%

Power Block cannot crit anymore 

 

Edit:

 

Chrono shield 4: Phantasm: 50% dmg nerf

Chrono shield 4: Alacrity application deleted

Chrono shield 4: block duration decreased from 2.25 s to 1.5 (not gonna lie that was fine) BUT:

Chrono shield 4: CD increase to 35 (!!!) seconds in PvP (making it garbage)

Chrono shield 5: Quickness changed to alacrity to prevent faster bursts

Chrono shield 5: targeting mechanism exchanged to ground target (I personally hate it)

Well of Precognition: distortion was exchanged to aegis (making it a useless skill)

Alacrity: Was nerfed from 66% to 33% to 25% all okey, if not:

Improved Alacrity: improved alacrity duration by 50% was changed to improves recharge speed to 50% and decreases duration by 33% (alacrity was nerfed and then brought back by a trait.

Arcane Thievery: LoS thingy (as it seems it’s called like that according to the community)

Jaunt: 50% damage nerf

Jaunt: 50% condi damage nerf

Jaunt: reduced stack from 3 to 2 AND increasing CD to 30s

Chaos Storm: doesnt any longer daze on followed up strikes

Chaos Storm is btw one of the few weapon skills with more then 30s cd and only a daze for that

Chaotic Interrupt: changed from boon and immob when interrupt to literal garbage

Blurred Frenzy: duration changed from 1,75s to 1s AND changing distortion to evade

Minor Adept trait Illusion: all shatter skills inflict confusion was changed to only F2 inflicts confusion

Don’t forget torment change

Dont forget Confusion change

 

Honorable mentions:

 

Phantasmal Fury: This trait applies furry to phantasms for exactly 10s in PvE, PvP and WvW since 2012 This is an accomplishment.

I updated it. 57 reasons why we have every right to demand getting a second dodge back.

Edited December 22, 2021 by Senqu.8054

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

^^That's the irony to it.  Everything that mirage was good at was nerfed under the presumption that they had two dodges.  When he dodge count was reduced to 1, little to nothing was returned in compensation.  This has left mirage a fundamentally broken spec in PVP and WvW.

[Obliviscaris.6937]

I've made the change to Elementalist. 

I've given up on Mesmer entirely, as a main since launch. There's absolutely zero hope at this point.  

I find it more enjoyable, and easier, to juggle 14 different weapon skills, than to play around Mirage's (or Mesmer as a whole's) shortcomings. If anything, Weaver feels more like Mirage should have. 

Big F in chat for Mesmer.

Edited December 24, 2021 by Obliviscaris.6937

[Zraurum.8493]

I think the correct alternative to the second dodge would be, just reworking critical skills like desert distortion if it's too cheating. Indeed, in the past, nothing prevented developers from reworking chaotic intteruption. Similarly, in this case, with the return of second dodge, it is enough to slightly correct the skills that, in the opinion of the developer, seem to be cheating, but not to fall into madness making the skill absolutely useless, as is the case with the chaotic interrupt. And to return the second Dodge, thereby partially return the balance to normal.

[Curunen.8729]

I think the existence of Vindicator means in my mind that mirage is not going to get that second dodge back.

Yes on one hand you could say mirage was first designed with 2 dodges to begin with whereas vindicator was explicitly designed with 1 dodge, but given it is more likely for changes to continue forward rather than backward (with rare exceptions eg chrono F skills), I reckon it's more likely future changes further build around a single dodge.

But here then the most important thing is this should be normalised across all game modes. This nonsense with pve having 2 dodge and pvp/wvw having 1 dodge really needs to be all one way or the other - then we have a platform on which to build.

So make all mirage have 1 dodge and then make further changes to support gameplay around that 1 dodge.

Edited December 25, 2021 by Curunen.8729

[Hirosama Nadasaki.6792]

On 11/28/2021 at 4:29 PM, Mell.4873 said:

I am Mesmer main, (not pvp) but i will say mirage is still very strong in pvp due to the burst. The extra dodge let you escape so much damage while still attacking so that is why it was broken.

If it was to be returned then you would have to remove any attack animations during the dodge(like every other dodge) which would make it worse.

 

On 11/28/2021 at 5:33 PM, Mell.4873 said:

When i do pvp with the Mirage i only ever used the dodge to avoid damage it was wasted on trying to obtain more dps. 2 condition cleanse is about the only other use but that is avoiding damage again.

The main reason i don't pvp with the Mesmer is it like the theif, you cant hold points, soak damage or really anything needed for conquest.

 

You start up saying Mirage is really strong in pvp, and the mirage dodge is great for dealing damage while also evading, then afterwards you say that the damage gain on mirage dodge is useless, and that Mirage can't do anything well in conquest.

 

Please, pick one of these stances, but only one.

[Ombras.2853]

Hard disagree.

Just give back the second dodge.

Removing it was a non-sense, fix it in the best way possible: reverting the stupid change.

[Obliviscaris.6937]

Simultaneously, being able to dodge whilst stunned was an absolutely stupid idea on the dev's part.  It was never going to go down well. Any designer from any discipline would be able to see this. It created problems and now Mirage is left being what it is.

[Mell.4873]

4 hours ago, Hirosama Nadasaki.6792 said:

 

 

You start up saying Mirage is really strong in pvp, and the mirage dodge is great for dealing damage while also evading, then afterwards you say that the damage gain on mirage dodge is useless, and that Mirage can't do anything well in conquest.

 

Please, pick one of these stances, but only one.

It is my observation that it is really strong in pvp but I don't play it since i can't do well with it in pvp.