(Not so welcome) change for mesmer

[SoulGuardian.6203]

Finally something other than clones.

 

...or so I initially thought. 

 

Fact is, I had fun with it... and as far as I was concerned at the time, there was something other than clones.

I didn't really care at the time, just so as long as I had something different. 

I had been requesting a clone replacement for years, being an Original GW1 mesmer rupter and all.

 

Really like the utility skills visuals.

However, I must admit that regardless of having fun trying out the Virtuoso, it does feel incomplete, and frankly, when seeing phantasms do all those peculiar things without spawning clones, it feels strange and unfinished... 

 

How are the devs going to fix this without messing up the entire core mesmer?

 

I do really like the blade skills visuals, but other than that.

 

Hopefully they will fix it.

We can only hope.

 

Add your ideas here in the following post, and hopefully there is still time to fix it.

 

 

 

Edited December 9, 2021 by SoulGuardian.6203

[Shiyo.3578]

Why are you thanking a for-profit company for selling you a product?

[SoulGuardian.6203]

I'm one of those players who have been requesting a clone replacement for years.

So yeah, I'm going to thank them.

I don't believe that's any of your business anyways.

What I post here is for the devs, not you.

Unfortunately, you are free to post.

But don't question me mate.

I owe you nothing.

Edited December 4, 2021 by SoulGuardian.6203

[Obliviscaris.6937]

13 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

They have professional staff that will fix whatever needs fixing.

 

Sure, Jan. 

They have professional staff, except when it comes to how they approach balancing Mesmer and specifically the Mesmer as a whole. And that's because I truly believe that none of the developers play Mesmer.

In regards to the rest of your post – you should know though, having an abnormally high tolerance for bullcrap is not a virtue. 

Edited December 4, 2021 by Obliviscaris.6937

[SoulGuardian.6203]

On 12/2/2021 at 6:52 PM, Shiyo.3578 said:

Why are you thanking a for-profit company for selling you a product?

Why not?

What's it to you?

14 hours ago, Obliviscaris.6937 said:

 

They have professional staff, except when it comes to how they approach balancing Mesmer and specifically the Mesmer as a whole. And that's because I truly believe that none of the developers play Mesmer.

It is still in beta mode, in case you forgot.

It has been the same with all other classes.

They will keep working at it even after release.

Besides, the order in which they work on a class it may have to do with its popularity.

If mesmer is at the bottom of the list, they will work on it last.

Just the way it is.

Edited December 4, 2021 by SoulGuardian.6203

[Puck.3697]

22 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

I'm one of those players who have been requesting a clone replacement for years.

shame they've done nothing but ensure it'll never be a alternative to Either other Elites then isnt it

otherwise yeah.. Cloneless Mesmer is a cool concept.. their execution is questionable however.

Edited December 4, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Iavra.8510]

It's true, i finally changed from Mesmer to Necro.

[Levetty.1279]

10 hours ago, Obliviscaris.6937 said:

And that's because I truly believe that none of the developers play Mesmer.

Dead give away when they think Virtuoso is the shatter spec when it uses its shatters the same as core and less then Chrono. Also they don't even seem to know what Phantasms are.

[Lethion.8745]

I am not against having a cloneless spec but that's a weird thing to want from Mesmer for such a long time. If you don't like clones, why play Mesmer in the first place? It's like... the whole deal of the class?

[Alpha.1308]

On 12/2/2021 at 1:32 PM, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Finally something other than clones.

is this the "feedback" they listen to when they tell us in these update posts that"wE'VEe rEcEiVEd grEat rESponses abOuT virTUoSo"

yea, okay

i'd like to have several conversations with these people 

 

it's a wonder the class has so many issues 

2 hours ago, Lethion.8745 said:

I am not against having a cloneless spec but that's a weird thing to want from Mesmer for such a long time. If you don't like clones, why play Mesmer in the first place? It's like... the whole deal of the class?

w.

a.

t.

 

do you understand how games work 

 

different classes are supposed to offer various positives to groups, along with their negatives

 

mesmer being bound to NPCs and target-based illusions has held them back in so many aspects, while making them nearly impossible to exchange out in others 

the devs themselves outright made a post with the wording along the lines of:

"the best way to handle X was to throw more chronos at it"   

 

this is a balance issue, not a thematic issue 

 

the entire concept of e-specs was founded on changing how the class played or what they could offer 

 

neither of which has been true for mesmer with any of the 3 e-specs

the majority of what they've got has been just an augment to existing playstyles, nothing realistically changing at all

core mesmer already had high burst, chrono gave it more

core mesmer already had high condi application, mirage gave it more

virtuoso gave mesmer........ i.... honestly can't even answer that, and i'm still waiting for someone to explain that part to me...

 

the mild exception being chrono, which, however, has been almost entirely stripped of what made it unique to begin with, leaving it a shell of its former self or what it could have been, and being used just because there's "not really much better options" to replace it, along with giving what it exclusively offered in the first place to other classes (literally time manipulation from quickness/alacrity, also let's not even begin to talk about portal for scourge/walk and thief preparation)

 

their new traitlines themselves have been lackluster, even core mesmer's existing traitlines, and their utility skills have not kept up with generic power creep, let alone even launching in a state with equivalent strengths to surrounding abilities 

Edited December 4, 2021 by Alpha.1308

[SoulGuardian.6203]

1 hour ago, Alpha.1308 said:

is this the "feedback" they listen to when they tell us in these update posts that"wE'VEe rEcEiVEd grEat rESponses abOuT virTUoSo"

yea, okay

i'd like to have several conversations with these people 

 

it's a wonder the class has so many issues 

w.

a.

t.

 

do you understand how games work 

 

different classes are supposed to offer various positives to groups, along with their negatives

 

 

mesmer being bound to NPCs and target-based illusions has held them back in so many aspects, while making them nearly impossible to exchange out in others 

the devs themselves outright made a post with the wording along the lines of:

"the best way to handle X was to throw more chronos at it"   

 

this is a balance issue, not a thematic issue 

 

the entire concept of e-specs was founded on changing how the class played or what they could offer 

 

neither of which has been true for mesmer with any of the 3 e-specs

the majority of what they've got has been just an augment to existing playstyles, nothing realistically changing at all

core mesmer already had high burst, chrono gave it more

core mesmer already had high condi application, mirage gave it more

virtuoso gave mesmer........ i.... honestly can't even answer that, and i'm still waiting for someone to explain that part to me...

 

the mild exception being chrono, which, however, has been almost entirely stripped of what made it unique to begin with, along with giving what it exclusively offered in the first place to other classes (literally time manipulation from quickness/alacrity)

 

their new traitlines themselves have been lackluster, even core mesmer's existing traitlines, and their utility skills have not kept up with generic power creep, let alone even launching in a state with equivalent strengths to surrounding abilities 

 

What is your problem? 

It's not meant to be feedback.

I don't have to explain myself to you.

I just about had enough of you lot hassling me for expressing my oppinion. 

What are you to me?

Exactly Nothing.

I don't have to take this verbal abuse from you or anybody else.

Beating a deadhorse makes you what?

 

Go bother somebody else.

I'm not here for your amusement. 

That's what the game is for.

I'm not changing my oppinion if that's what you want.

I like the virtuoso, and the way it plays.

end of.

It's my oppinion, my preference, not yours.

Thinking of bashing someone verbally into submission?

I don't care about you or anyone that has a different oppinion.

You mean nothing to me.

Hope you get the message.

Get it in your head.

I think ANet has done a good job bringing virtuoso.

Live with it.

Edited December 4, 2021 by SoulGuardian.6203

[SoulGuardian.6203]

5 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

shame they've done nothing but ensure it'll never be a alternative to Either other Elites then isnt it

otherwise yeah.. Cloneless Mesmer is a cool concept.. their execution is questionable however.

You seem to forget that they will keep working on the classes even after release,  just like they did with all the others.

 

Mate, if you don't like virtuoso, just don't play it.

But that's no excuse.

[SoulGuardian.6203]

2 hours ago, Lethion.8745 said:

I am not against having a cloneless spec but that's a weird thing to want from Mesmer for such a long time. If you don't like clones, why play Mesmer in the first place? It's like... the whole deal of the class?

Why not play mesmer?

So mesmer is just for you exclusively and those who like legal bots? (Clones)

When ANet finally brings something that is right up my alley. You tell me that I can't have it!?

 

You lot make me laugh.

Edited December 4, 2021 by SoulGuardian.6203

[Dadnir.5038]

On 12/2/2021 at 7:32 PM, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

I know eventually it will be a balanced and good fun class for everyone to enjoy.

You're so positive... It's blinding!

A cloneless spec was something that really felt needed pre-phantasm rework as clones have their own shortcoming. Nowadays thought... Not so.

The spec could work and, in itself, is an interesting concept. However as it stand there are things that just "feel bad" on the virtuoso and the majority of the forum population have pretty much lost any trust into the ability of the developper to actually balance and make "a good fun class for everyone to enjoy". (I mean, the mesmer and it's 2 first e-specs have a fun gameplay but for competitive purpose it's been pretty much crippled for quite a long time already. Virtuoso is more of a warrior with 4 burst gameplay so...)

[SoulGuardian.6203]

22 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

You're so positive... It's blinding!

Enjoying a new elite spec has very little to do with positivity.

What I see is people having very little faith in ANet and panicking over a class that does something else other than the same old routine.

Just the mere fact that I can actually rely on something other than a mere short-time distraction such as clones, is good enough to begin with. 

Balance will eventually happen.

Clones may fool a living player in pvp or wvw.

But for a mainly pve'r such as myself, they are an incovinience at best.

Not to say that I don't like them at all, mind.

I really enjoy the mirage who needs clones for distortion.

 

Quote

A cloneless spec was something that really felt needed pre-phantasm rework as clones have their own shortcoming.

I agree with you on this.

Phantasms have now become a pain to deal with. Especialy with certain skills that spawn them.

I questioned that myself many times.

How are they going to replace phantasms without messing up the entire core mesmer?

 

Quote

 

 

The spec could work and, in itself, is an interesting concept. However as it stand there are things that just "feel bad"

They could rework some of the trait lines to accommodate whichever issues arise.

It's not the end of the world.

Quote

 

on the virtuoso and the majority of the forum population have pretty much lost any trust into the ability of the developper to actually balance and make "a good fun class for everyone to enjoy". (I mean, the mesmer and it's 2 first e-specs have a fun gameplay but for competitive purpose it's been pretty much crippled for quite a long time already. Virtuoso is more of a warrior with 4 burst gameplay so...)

Of course.

But I keep having to remind people that it is still in beta mode, and that they will keep working on the flaws even after release.

They always did up until now.

I don't see why it would be any different with virtuoso.

Edited December 4, 2021 by SoulGuardian.6203

[Alpha.1308]

1 hour ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

What is your problem? 

 

people accepting garbage and allowing the devs to continue this by making them not take in real feedback 

1 hour ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

I just about had enough of you lot hassling me for expressing my oppinion. 

 

 

1 hour ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Go bother somebody else.

I'm not here for your amusement. 

That's what the game is for.

 

1) you're on a public forum

2) this game is my amusement, as well

3) people's poor "opinions" on how the game is functionally designed ruining my own gameplay experience and others competitive experiences in place of just "whatever works" in pve, where basically most things work to begin with, for what myself, and others, have also paid for expecting a competitive experience, is exactly the problem here, thanks

 

4) you can have your virtuoso exactly the way it is currently, if it mechanically was better for the actual game's design

everything you like about virtuoso can stay the same, it needs internal mechanical tweaks, and that's my issue:

i'm wondering where they're hearing this "good feedback" from, and if it's just because it's "visually appealing" or whatever  

On 12/2/2021 at 1:32 PM, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Regardless of how it plays now, I know eventually it will be a balanced and good fun class for everyone to enjoy.

 

 

On 12/2/2021 at 1:32 PM, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

I had a blast with it in pve.

 

 

competitive modes shouldn't be ignored for casuals experience, especially if your experience wouldn't change 

we're getting shafted for absolutely no benefit to you at all, where as you're fine with whatever internal mechanisms exist, because it barely affects you 

 

if you think it'll be "balanced eventually", then that's the other problem

look at mirage's utility skills

explain to me where you'd use any of them, ever, in any game content at all that exists 

why does well of precognition still exist in this game?

where are you going to ever put Psychic Force on your bar in virtuoso and actually have it not be a completely wasted button?

they don't balance their game, that is my problem

Edited December 4, 2021 by Alpha.1308

[Ombras.2853]

Ah, yes. The evergreen “pve doesn’t have competitive modes”.

[SoulGuardian.6203]

1 minute ago, Alpha.1308 said:

people accepting garbage and allowing the devs to continue this by making them not take in real feedback 

That's your oppinion.

I don't think it's garbage.

I actually quite enjoy virtuoso.

 

Feedback?

There are tons of it.

Why repeat what's been posted a thousand times?

Oh wait. You want my feedback to be like yours!?

I get it now.

1 minute ago, Alpha.1308 said:

 

 

1) you're on a public forum

Yeah. Right?

Doesn't mean that you have to hassle people, and opress them until they agree with you.

1 minute ago, Alpha.1308 said:

2) this game is my amusement, as well

Good.

Then play the game instead of hassling me.

1 minute ago, Alpha.1308 said:

3) people's poor "opinions" on how the game is functionally designed ruining my own gameplay experience for what i, myself, paid for, is exactly the problem here, thanks

If my oppinion is poor, tgen why are you asking me to post feedback?

My "poor" oppinion just does not coincide with yours.

That's the problem.

 

1 minute ago, Alpha.1308 said:

4) you can have your virtuoso exactly the way it is currently, if it mechanically was better for the actual game's design

everything you like about virtuoso can stay the same, it needs internal mechanical tweaks, and that's my issue:

i'm wondering where they're hearing this "good feedback" from, and if it's just because it's "visually appealing" or whatever  

 

Let me tell you a sectret.

ANet doesn't really care about your oppinions or feedback mate.

At the end of the day they will do what they see fit and dish it out. Like it or not.

Do you think, for a minute, whoever is getting paid well to make the decisions is going to really care about all the complaining that you lot are doing?

 

 

1 minute ago, Alpha.1308 said:

competitive modes shouldn't be ignored for casuals experience, especially if your experience wouldn't change 

we're getting shafted for absolutely no benefit to you at all, where as you're fine with whatever internal mechanisms exist, because it barely affects you 

You always have the choice ti not play it.

 

1 minute ago, Alpha.1308 said:

if you think it'll be "balanced eventually", then that's the other problem

look at mirage's utility skills

explain to me where you'd use any of them, ever, in any game content at all that exists 

they don't balance their game, that is my problem

And why are you taking it out on me?

Then it seems that your problem is with them

Write a lettee complaining then.

There's nothing I can about it.

[Alpha.1308]

28 minutes ago, Ombras.2853 said:

Ah, yes. The evergreen “pve doesn’t have competitive modes”.

pve numbers and cooldowns can be tweaked

you can't tweak pvp that way to balance it 

 

pvp requires mechanical advantages

half of the mechanics in pvp have nothing to do at all in pve

the opposite ABSOLUTELY cannot be said

everything in pve applies to pvp

not everything in pvp applies to pve 

 

projectile reflect/destructs barely exist in pve, where ever it matters, it still barely matters

NPCs will not A/D strafe projectiles

 

this is an entire wasted mechanical advantage in pve, that plays a huge part in pvp

 

CC in pvp is timed with certain skills, where people have MUCH less health pools and timing is much different for different CCs, such as immob vs cripple/chill vs stun vs daze which are completely different than pulls/pushes, rather than something like a boss that involves burning all CC just to break a bar, or grouping a bunch of pve mobs into a wall to just AoE cleave them all down 

 

this is an entire wasted mechanical advantage in pve, that plays a huge part in pvp

 

 

i'd go on,  don't even get me started on pets and NPC mechanics, but i doubt anything is going to get through if your actual argument is really "pve and pvp competitive environments are definitely similar because fighting an actual person with tactics and strategies is definitely like fighting a boss or pushing groups of NPC mobs into a corner"  

 

i'm not trying to invalidate pve competitive modes, or say they're "lesser", or say i'm better for not participating in them and only fighting real people, but there's a VERY clear difference here in how this issue needs to be approached 

 

22 minutes ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Oh wait. You want my feedback to be like yours!?

I get it now.

sure, if you can explain how you think this is acceptable to create something expected to be new that offers absolutely nothing new to the game itself other than its visual noise 

 

22 minutes ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Doesn't mean that you have to hassle people, and opress them until they agree with you.

Quote

the only fair argument you have, still doesn't negate the rest of everything i typed, however

 

22 minutes ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

My "poor" oppinion just does not coincide with yours.

 

objectively, saying "it works in pve, so it's perfectly fine" is a bad opinion

everything already works in pve 

the class doesn't have to suffer just because it's "fine on arrival for casual pve"

again, look at the history of this class, my issue stems from the lack of effort put into actually fixing anything 

 

22 minutes ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Do you think, for a minute, whoever is getting paid well to make the decisions is going to really care about all the complaining that you lot are doing?

 

 

you even just said they're getting paid

this is their job

and they're doing horribly at it 

do that anywhere else, and you'd be fired

again

balance

team

if their job is to balance

explain, again, where you're going to be using anything i said above, in terms of JUST SIMPLY those few utility skills

i'm not even asking explanations of trait lines or fundamental mechanics with this question, which, they still very much apply to the argument, but just to bring it down a few notches

 

just simply the utility skills listed

their one job is to make skills to be used in their game

they literally aren't even doing that, or fixing them afterwards for Y.E.A.R.S.

 

i'll start dialing it back when at least that simple matter is even slightly addressed

but after 10 years, it's a valid concern, and only half the problem  

 

22 minutes ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

And why are you taking it out on me?

 

 

collateral damage 

i can apologize all you want, i feel bad i turned your post into a rant, sure, but it was specifically feedback post

legitimately right after they posted "we've been listening to feedback"

therefore, i gave feedback

it got rude, and sorry, it might not be what you personally deserve, but it would be what they deserve to read if they even cared at all about their game or what people think about their game 

i'm mostly mad at them, not you 

it's just unfortunate that you're their target audience, apparently, if they're "listening to feedback", yet this is all we get

Edited December 4, 2021 by Alpha.1308

[Obliviscaris.6937]

13 minutes ago, Alpha.1308 said:

i'm mostly mad at them, not you 

it's just unfortunate that you're their target audience,

I wouldn't be sorry. 

Lowest hanging fruit in the entire kitten orchard shouldn't be given a platform to contribute to bad development. 

Edited December 4, 2021 by Obliviscaris.6937

[Alpha.1308]

4 minutes ago, Obliviscaris.6937 said:

I wouldn't be sorry. 

Lowest hanging fruit in the entire kitten orchard shouldn't be given a platform to contribute to bad development. 

EHHHHHHH

there are levels of acceptability here

i'm perfectly 100% okay with someone enjoying what they paid for, even voicing it

 

but fighting back with "it's fine for me so it should be fine for you" in a casual vs competitive environment, yea, i'll start pushing back 

 

but, meh, it still is a little unfair to drag people through the mud just for not seeing the importance of something larger than the smaller picture of what they're personally interested in, just, they do need to understand that what would affect us, doesn't affect them, however the opposite is very, very untrue 

[SoulGuardian.6203]

"So brave. You clown"

 

Darling. You hurt my feelings.

Wow.

This is very constructive feedback.

I learned a great deal with this.

I'm convinced. Virtuoso's bad.

Can we go back to the topic now, or are there anymore insults you'd like to dish out?

 

1 hour ago, Alpha.1308 said:

 

there are levels of acceptability here

i'm perfectly 100% okay with someone enjoying what they paid for, even voicing it

 

Isn't it?

 

Anyways.

I can appreciate what your saying.

I actually gave some feedback on the main thread a couple of days ago.

Nothing too technical though.

 

But I really believe Virtuoso has potential.

Just the main issue is the phantasms.

 

I must say, I haven't tested in pvp.

Sorry, just not my cuppa.

I played pvp maybe ten times, at most.

 

On my feedback, I mentioned a few things about skills.

I also found a minor bug in the blades pips.

 

But as I said.

I don't main any class in specific. 

I find what traits and gear works best to my playstyles and apply it.

 

I have many characters to tend to, so I'm not constantly  just working on one class.

I honestly haven't checked my chronos traits recently.

I could be getting more dps out of it. 

But because it was taking a lot of damage, I decided to go for a more hit and run playstyle.

With mirage, I don't have that problem because I use distortion skills for evasion and attack simultaniously.

 

With virtuoso, I never had to dodge much.

I used dagger/focus, and staff... mostly.

 

I never found damage output to be a problem.

Even in level 80 areas. 

I find it does more damage than my chronos.

 

What other aspects of it would you like me to mention?

Anything in specific?

 

Edited December 4, 2021 by SoulGuardian.6203

[Ombras.2853]

While I’m not disregarding your position on the spec, my point is very simple.

In order to figure out what a spec does well or it doesn’t, you don’t “wander into 80 level zones”.

You want to test it where you can make use of the actual skills, not killing some mobs quickly.

 

PvP.

WvW.

Raids.

Strikes.

Golem bar.

 

All of those, in a different way each of them, provide infinitely better coverage than “I tested Virtuoso during a farmtrain and mobs were dying quickly!” kind of comment. Which doesn’t say anything per se. And it’s not disregarding those activities (which are playing the game, why would I) but they don’t give us any judgement about where and when Virtuoso is actually better/worse than other Mesmer specs.

[Levetty.1279]

The main problem with the 'I killed a PvE mob in open world so its good' argument is that Mirage and Chrono are better at doing that anyway.

[Hirosama Nadasaki.6792]

Posts on a public forum.

Someone replies in disagreement.

Lashes out as if they've just insulted you and your family.

Mate you're going places.