harbinger does huge damage

[Asum.4960]

53 minutes ago, Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

Indeed, this is one of the most major problems. But out-of-the-box skills like Epi, but also things like Portal or even Invisibility are concepts that have the tendency to break stuff, and on the other hand are the staples (sometimes even USP's) of this game. They add that extra bit of spice! I can see why they are reluctant to change it too much.

Yea, I honestly don't see a problem with these things anymore. 

 

"This Thief stealthed us past some adds while a Mesmer skipped ahead and teleported us to the boss, where a Necromancer killed the adds via Epidemic, resetting a Guardians Virtue of Justice, causing us to burst the boss down in no time" is the type of unique and fun class fantasy/identity moments that GW2 imo already has too little of. 

 

And sure, sometimes these mechanics cause some issues, sometimes they are too strong and need to be adjusted (like Epidemic getting heavily nerfed to disincentivize Epi Bouncing, or items like White Mantle Portal Device being added with a far larger CD since Portal was just too insane of a mechanic to be entirely restricted to one Profession), but overall I think they add far more good and flair to the game than they cause issues. 

 

Even on wet dream bosses for Epi like the Kodan Brothers (or to a lesser extend, Molten Boss), some Specs like Weaver, Firebrand and Soulbeast etc. can compete with Epi Scourge in DPS by sheer cleave if they are positioned correctly, and all the other encounters where it's strong as well (things like SH, MO, Ai etc.) it's merely a convenience, not something you can't do reasonably without - which is imo exactly where they should be, situational moments of class distinction/glory that aren't so far ahead that they invalidate alternative options/strategies. 

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

6 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

Even on wet dream bosses for Epi like the Kodan Brothers (or to a lesser extend, Molten Boss)

FYI, Epidemic is useless in Molten Boss.  As soon as one goes down, the other gets a full heal and condi cleanse.  On paper, it is a massive DPS increase, but in practice it's functionally a DPS loss.

Edited December 7, 2021 by Drarnor Kunoram.5180

[Downstate.4697]

P/d harbinger can build for an abnoxious amount of aoe weakness with a decent amount of cc options. Between that and decent boon corruptions you are looking at a solid pick for any team fight to help counter the power meta

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PSwAoiZlhixi1iFtleUH-zZoKBzHA

[Asum.4960]

36 minutes ago, Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

FYI, Epidemic is useless in Molten Boss.  As soon as one goes down, the other gets a full heal and condi cleanse.  On paper, it is a massive DPS increase, but in practice it's functionally a DPS loss.

Not really, you can cleave both pulled together/put a shade on the other, then tab to the second target after the initial condi burst and Epi to the first to get that one down faster - you don't always have to Epi from the primary target. 

 

Anyway, point being even on multi boss fights that you can cleave/epi (regardless of usefulness) other classes can compete with Scourge even with Epi due to superior cleave - so I don't think Necro needs to do fundamentally far less single target damage to compensate for just that skill existing. 

Not to downplay it's usefulness - it's a fantastic tool, but it's certainly not a valid justification for suggesting 25k peak DPS on cScourge - which would just render the spec unplayed as DPS.

Edited December 7, 2021 by Asum.4960

[Infusion.7149]

Weaver has an 5s ICD on the condi output from burning precision, there is no such ICD on Firebrand running permeating wrath which doesn't even need to crit. There's really not much of a payoff for weaver other than from persisting flames which affects strike damage only.

[Puck.3697]

On 12/3/2021 at 10:48 PM, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

I'll legit ask for a refund and quit gw2 if they pull that bs balancing act. I hate that balance... let's make something good, nerf it, and nerf the only other good option to drive expac sales. Gtfo of here with that.... (aimed at anet not you)

while i agree with the concept.. i'd understand it more if scourge wasnt currently overpowered in PvE Content.

[Zalavaaris.5329]

9 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

while i agree with the concept.. i'd understand it more if scourge wasnt currently overpowered in PvE Content.

Scg damage is mid tier, several classes out dmg it by quite a bit. 

[Linnael.1069]

6 minutes ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

Scg damage is mid tier, several classes out dmg it by quite a bit. 

You shouldn't really try to offer balance input if you can't admit to yourself that scourge is completely overpowered right now.

[Zalavaaris.5329]

42 minutes ago, Linnael.1069 said:

You shouldn't really try to offer balance input if you can't admit to yourself that scourge is completely overpowered right now.

In terms of both dmg and support yes. They need to separate the group barrier MORE via talents. Tear the dmg right off of the class IF you spec for more group barrier support and remove the group barrier functionality from the dps variant. Keep the personal barrier as a class defensive mechanic. There you go, I've just balance scourge in a way that won't affect dps players. 

[Cranky wo Coffee.5914]

I think we will see a "balance" nerf to torment before EoD. I just hope Necromancer isn't "balanced" before the torment/torment runes/sigils are nerfed.

[Puck.3697]

1 hour ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

Scg damage is mid tier, several classes out dmg it by quite a bit. 

Issue is your evaluating it based on a benchmark which is outdated. The latest scourge benchmark is 37.5k DPS.. 

Mix this with how exposed works with burst condi DPS. 

The fact it offers barrier. 

The fact it's ranged with sceptar. 

It's sustain 

Carry potiental and more. 

Overall as a whole package makes it overpowered. Also 37.5k DPS isn't "mid tier" you ignore the fact also that most of the rly high DPS builds do not function. 

For example. The high DPS dragonhunter build requires 100% aegis uptime to pull off Condi weaver is highly situational and only works on 1 or 2 bosses while scourge has none of these restrictions which actually means in a practical fight its one of the highest DPS. 

Don't read benchmarks and apply those numbers to builds, there are lots of builds which look ultra high DPS but you would not realistically use in a practical fight. 

Scourges kit is overpowered... 

To the concept of locking things behind traits, it's not rly practical you just create dead buttons at this point just to pardon the DPS. 

Scourge is susposed to be a hybrid, the problem was scourge never needed buffing. Player perception was the problem scourge was pretty strong prior. 

They should have doubled down on scourges hybridization and not slammed it with a ton more damage realistically. 

Necros soon to have both harbinger and reaper as DPS option, scourge being pushed into a 3rd has just created overlap. 

 

Edited December 9, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Zalavaaris.5329]

5 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Issue is your evaluating it based on a benchmark which is outdated. The latest scourge benchmark is 37.5k DPS.. 

Mix this with how exposed works with burst condi DPS. 

The fact it offers barrier. 

The fact it's ranged with sceptar. 

It's sustain 

Carry potiental and more. 

Overall as a whole package makes it overpowered. Also 37.5k DPS isn't "mid tier" you ignore the fact also that most of the rly high DPS builds do not function. 

For example. The high DPS dragonhunter build requires 100% aegis uptime to pull off Condi weaver is highly situational and only works on 1 or 2 bosses while scourge has none of these restrictions which actually means in a practical fight its one of the highest DPS. 

Don't read benchmarks and apply those numbers to builds, there are lots of builds which look ultra high DPS but you would not realistically use in a practical fight. 

Scourges kit is overpowered... 

To the concept of locking things behind traits, it's not rly practical you just create dead buttons at this point just to pardon the DPS. 

Scourge is susposed to be a hybrid, the problem was scourge never needed buffing. Player perception was the problem scourge was pretty strong prior. 

They should have doubled down on scourges hybridization and not slammed it with a ton more damage realistically. 

Necros soon to have both harbinger and reaper as DPS option, scourge being pushed into a 3rd has just created overlap. 

 

You clearly didn't read my latest post on how to properly balance scourge. And I understand very well benchmarks and fundamental aspects of the game at a high level. I've been a competitive raider (in the games that HAVE competitive raiding) for over a decade so don't worry, I do happen to know the subject very well. 

[Puck.3697]

Just now, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

You clearly didn't read my latest post on how to properly balance scourge. And I understand very well benchmarks and fundamental aspects of the game at a high level. I've been a competitive raider (in the games that HAVE competitive raiding) for over a decade so don't worry, I do happen to know the subject very well

I said in the second part of my text to the second theory about dividing up support and DPS options. 

It creates dead buttons for the sake of upholding it's pure DPS options, it would be better off remaining primarily as a support. We now have 2 DPS focused speccs when EoD launchs there's no need for scourge to be a third. 

 

[Zalavaaris.5329]

5 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

I said in the second part of my text to the second theory about dividing up support and DPS options. 

It creates dead buttons for the sake of upholding it's pure DPS options, it would be better off remaining primarily as a support. We now have 2 DPS focused speccs when EoD launchs there's no need for scourge to be a third. 

 

Dead buttons how? You change the functionality. Adding torment and procing a shade isn't a dead button. It's just supportless. It's not over the top damage and if you remove the support aspect you get a mediocre dps with good self sustain. Taking demonic lore should remove the group barrier. Make them choose to take dmg or support. Allow flexibility to allow multiple play styles. There's zero reason to butcher the spec and send all the dps players to other specs or even other games. 

Also, I fully believe a scourge that provides group barrier should be 15k dps or under. But if you choose to spec to do 37k you do ZERO group barrier (still give yourself barrier since you have no shroud). 

Edited December 9, 2021 by Zalavaaris.5329

[Asum.4960]

1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

We now have 2 DPS focused speccs when EoD launchs there's no need for scourge to be a third. 

I really don't get this mentality of "there's only one viable power and one viable condition build allowed per Profession". 

That makes almost as little sense to me as "Ele already does damage, so there's no need for any other profession to as well". 

 

It's not about "need". They just need to provide different themes and playstyles. 

The problems as I see them are just that a) Scourge does a little bit too much right now and b) due to how Traits are designed every spec on a profession feels fairly samey since they use pretty much the exact same Traits for any given role, rather than synergising with different Traitlines for more varied and interesting combinations. 

 

But the more builds (and with them different themes and playstyles for players to enjoy) are viable, the merrier. 

 

There is zero need for DPS Scourge or Reaper to have to go away in order for DPS Harbinger to shine, unless DPS Harbinger is simply boring and underwhelming and can't stand on it's own or distinguish itself - in which case that is the problem.

Edited December 9, 2021 by Asum.4960

[LucianDK.8615]

Scourges only contributes barrier, a teensy bit of might and good rez ability if running blood.

You are completely staring yourself blind on the Scourge and not seeing the grossly OP firebrand right beside them.  Due to only having barrier, and no aegis, stability, alacrity and quickness, Scourges will always be a secondary healer.

Furthermore if theres no balled up targets for epidemic, then Scourge dps plummets.

Look at fractal CMs, its alacrigades and quickbrands that carries the run.  Scourges are just barrier bots and being there for easy rez, and throwing the ocassional epidemic.

 

Edited December 9, 2021 by LucianDK.8615

[Puck.3697]

5 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

There is zero need for DPS Scourge or Reaper to have to go away in order for DPS Harbinger to shine, unless DPS Harbinger is simply boring and underwhelming and can't stand on it's own or distinguish itself - in which case that is the problem

Harbinger could be the most fun specc in the game. But if it's 4k DPS lower then reaper. It's trash. Why intentionally self handicap realistically. 

That's why. Because if speccs bring unique roles they hold a reason to be played.

Edited December 9, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[anbujackson.9564]

Scourge damage should go down to 30/31k with harbringer taking its 37-38k spot. Stop increasing overall damage. PvE is already a shitshow.

Anyone saying that scourge damage is mid tier is flat out wrong. The only better specs damagewise in somewhat realistic scenarios are condi renegade (which is kitten in its own right), and firebrand on breakbars. Great now we are back to the three classes that completely dump down the game and not one step further.

Any competent scourge players beats every class in a sustained (non power) fight by the way, even renegade (when you cant just faceroll your rotation) and firbrands (if there are no breakbars). I have played it enough lately in raids and fractals. Go check condi berserker if you want to see a flawed build or stuff like condi holo/mirage (with no high attack rates) if you think that scourge struggles to compete. 

Edited December 12, 2021 by anbujackson.9564

[LucianDK.8615]

1 hour ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

Scourge damage should go down to 30/31k with harbringer taking its 37-38k spot. Stop increasing overall damage. PvE is already a shitshow.

Anyone saying that scourge damage is mid tier is flat out wrong. The only better specs damagewise in somewhat realistic scenarios are condi renegade (which is kitten in its own right), and firebrand on breakbars. Great now we are back to the three classes that completely dump down the game and not one step further.

Any competent scourge players beats every class in a sustained (non power) fight by the way, even renegade (when you cant just faceroll your rotation) and firbrands (if there are no breakbars). I have played it enough lately in raids and fractals. Go check condi berserker if you want to see a flawed build or stuff like condi holo/mirage (with no high attack rates) if you think that scourge struggles to compete. 

dps scourges would die right there. Only barrierbotting left for them.

[mcnick.3150]

i kinda think the new elite spec is a great WVWVW help with crowd boons..thats it.

[Dadnir.5038]

4 hours ago, LucianDK.8615 said:

dps scourges would die right there. Only barrierbotting left for them.

They wouldn't as there is still epidemic, but core necro would take a huge hit as scourge by itself don't have the amount of damage asked to be nerfed and thus it's core would be nerfed which would lead to c-reaper and c-harbinger being nerfed.

What's "funny" is that if c-harbinger end up overperforming scourge dps and become "meta", the general hate toward the scourge would just be passed to harbinger. The hidden truth is that players don't really care about whether a spec is easy or not to play when it come to direct their hate toward it, all they care is that it's competition to their own favourite.

Edited December 12, 2021 by Dadnir.5038

[Puck.3697]

On 12/9/2021 at 3:14 PM, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

Make them choose to take dmg or support. Allow flexibility to allow multiple play styles. There's zero reason to butcher the spec and send all the dps players to other specs or even other games. 

Also, I fully believe a scourge that provides group barrier should be 15k dps or under. But if you choose to spec to do 37k you do ZERO group barrier (still give yourself barrier since you have no shroud

U are aware scourges "37k benchmark" isn't the reality in things such as fractals due to how exposed works and Condi burst? 

Alac ren, scourge and Firebrands DPS in exposed periods are away waay higher realistically infusion or one of them showed some math on it and these speccs were doing like 60k+ in these periods when played at full speed. 

Again benchmarks mean nothing to fights in reality lots of builds function very different in the actual fights. 

Ofcourse fixing the exposed is prolly the better fix here. But we will see what they Do because the current exposed mechanics makes burst condi waaaay to strong. 

3 hours ago, LucianDK.8615 said:

scourges would die right there. Only barrierbotting left for them

Not realistically. 

Exposed mechanic since the rework of it make scourge firebrand and RR ren go mental even if their sustain was 31/32k good scourge DPS players spikes in those windows would carry it upwards alone. 

Although I'd say 34k DPS is the norm for what people push as "low tier DPS" 

In all honesty Im expecting firebrand and scourge to get left in a fire somewhere in EoD. Purely because they are so strong and if Anet are going backwards in power creep they will never be able to get these 2 off the throne. 

36k harbinger has no hope of PvE use while something like scourge exists in the same proffession. Same for willbender while firebrand exist. 

Edited December 12, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Puck.3697]

6 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

They wouldn't as there is still epidemic, but core necro would take a huge hit as scourge by itself don't have the amount of damage nerf asked and thus it's core would be nerfed which would lead to c-reaper and c-harbinger being nerfed.

What's "funny" is that if c-harbinger end up overperforming scourge dps and become "meta", the general hate toward the scourge will just be passed to harbinger. The hidden truth is that players don't really care about whether a spec is easy or not to play when it come to direct their hate toward it, all they care is that it's competition to their own favourite

Pretty much true 😂 the only thing they could do to scourge is likely nerf torch (it's weapon) and its mechanic. 

Anything further would likely smash the rest of the speccs Condi DPS ability which would make us suffer the same problem revs currently suffer... 

And yeah 😂 harbinger is very likely to get hated on alot. People tend to beleive necros is anets baby ignoring the fact necro in PvE was laughed up for the vast majority of the games life. 

Scourge might be overpowered currently. But it's been a loooong wait really atleast in PvE. In PvP boon strip and more will always make it relevant realistically. But it's not rly that OP anymore since the nerfs. 

The whole "hard to play" or "easy to play" argument I won't get involved in... Alot of people like to exaggerate how difficult their favourite proffession is and I know what sort of argument that sorta topic brings up 😂😂

Edited December 12, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Nimon.7840]

1 minute ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Pretty much true 😂 the only thing they could do to scourge is likely nerf torch (it's weapon) and its mechanic. 

Anything further would likely smash the rest of the speccs Condi DPS ability which would make us suffer the same problem revs currently suffer... 

revs suffer?
where?
they are basically mandatory in every single gamemode.

while i absolutely agree, that scourge in its current form is too strong, other classes have the exact same problem.
especially firebrands and renegades.
i dont think that dopping the dps of scourge would be of any help.

it would be much better to differentiate between support and dps builds.

fixing scourge is pretty easy: make shades purely offensive and then if you take certain traits they go purely support/defensive.

but what would you do about firebrand, or renegade, or even dragonhunter?

while scourge is too strong in endgame content right now, you also have to keep in mind, that necros got insta kicked out of endgame groups for a very long time.
sure - for normal people scourge is very good to get the clears in a good amount of time.

 

but if your group is better than average, there's still better classes to pick from, if you are looking for faster kills.
for example renegade with its absurd benchmark (full dps), the ability to give 10 man perma alac alone while still being almost unkillable due to battle scars.
and all of that while having one third of the ramp up time of scourge.

so yes - scourge needs tuning, but so do other specs

 

 

[Asum.4960]

I honestly think DPS Scourge (bc of DPS uptime, cleanses and Barriers), Firebrand (bc of Aegis, Stab, cleanses, Projectile hate etc.) and Renegade (bc of insane self-sustain, and both offensive and defense unique group buffs) would be fine at ~35k DPS. 

 

Would they technically be "balanced" at ~30k and still bring enough value to groups in many cases? Yes, sure, but anyone who even remotely knows the GW2 community (see Scourge being shunned in endgame content for years before the damage buffs, despite technically being pretty good already) understands these specs would be shunned and forgotten at that level, with players defaulting to specs they see doing 10k more DPS on benchmarks - lacking the game knowledge to make informed decisions about what increases group success rate the most.

 

Imo 32-35k DPS is a good level for specs which offer various Utility, and 35-38k DPS (at the absolute most) for specs which primarily just contribute DPS (with Boon Hybrids somewhere around 25k DPS). 

 

That way you don't fundamentally cripple specs everywhere else just because they provide some Utility in group content (and making them high value picks for people with enough game knowledge to understand the value of group success rate increases), while still allowing players to measure their.. bragging rights via almost entirely DPS focused builds. 

 

Making the gap too big just gets ugly due to lack of game knowledge in the community at large.

 

Ideally though, rather than globally nerfing the damage of certain specs with some innate support, I'd much rather see the Trait system reworked from largely passive modifiers to making these aspects not innate, and instead providing Trait choices centered around picking between support, sustain/tankyness and damage options to add to any given spec. Imo actually gameplay affecting mechanical choices are always more interesting than 10% damage modifiers or 20% CD reductions and the like, which could just be made baseline instead where needed.

As in, Shade skills are almost entirely offensive with Demonic Lore selected, while picking Sand Savant makes them largely or entirely supportive. Make FB Mantras and Tomes innately much worse, and return current effects like the ability to spam out Aegis via a Trait that directly competes with a strong DPS Trait. Don't make Traits like Battlescars which both provide one of the biggest DPS increase as well as broken levels of sustain in one mechanic. One should come at the expense of the other, not provide peak performance in both at once. 

13 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

They wouldn't as there is still epidemic

I find it hard to believe that more than maybe 0.01% of players stack Scourges/Necros while playing in voice chat and coordinating Epi bounces effectively - which imo is far from grounds to balance the entire Spec around that extremely niche possibility, esp. since Epi bouncing was already nerfed by 75%.

 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Asum.4960