harbinger does huge damage

[Stand The Wall.6987]

idk how it will play out in a pvp match, but with some might harb shroud 2-4 all do around 10k on a golem. the auto has insane pressure. idk it might be the glass cannon we all wanted from necro but never got. ofc its very possible they nerf the damage and it becomes a dumpster spec.

[Bale.3851]

36k in harbinger vs 36 in scourge. i dont see the profit?

[LucianDK.8615]

2 minutes ago, Bale.3851 said:

36k in harbinger vs 36 in scourge. i dont see the profit?

No profit indeed. Why does Harbinger exist with all its limitations when Scourge does it better?

[Infusion.7149]

Arenanet's solution is going to be to nerf scourge.

Sustained damage is lower than anticipated but I expect harbinger will be 39-40K (not 45K as last beta) after another round of rebalancing. Condi quickness is now 27K or so rather than the original 33-34K from last beta.

edit: also @ Shroud, Death Shroud auto is 1s cast time and 1.15 coefficient while Harbinger shroud auto is 0.66 coefficient +torment with 0.5 cast. If you're talking about DPS you're forgetting the "S" which is the time spent.

Edited December 3, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Shroud.2307]

Mhm, and I hit people for 10k Death Shroud autos with core Necro too, but I have cushion and Harbinger doesn't.

I played; zerk, zerk/mara, zerk/valk Harbinger and it is effectively the same as zerk core, but with less defense and faster attacks. There are arguments to be made with how much easier it is to interrupt and shut down a core Power Necro over a Power Harbinger, but I still feel the risks outweigh the rewards.

Both of them do better with hybrid or full Condi just due to how they're designed. That doesn't mean they can't work with Power, just that they'll struggle against better opponents.

The advantage of core is that it can afford to take bad hits and has appropriate tools to make kiting easier. Harbinger needs to kite just as much as core, but the options it has are much less reliable.

I don't necessarily think it's unplayable, I just think if we're talking Power between it and the other available Necro specs, Harbinger doesn't offer anything the others don't do better. The same can be said for full Condition, support, or Hybrid.

The only real advantage to Harbinger is that it's much faster than any other Necro spec, and giving it breathing room will be a lot more dangerous for the opponent than it would be against the rest. As soon as you step away from it it's going to absolutely blast you with damage, but who's going to range it when it folds so easily to pressure? 

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

2 minutes ago, Shroud.2307 said:

The only real advantage to Harbinger is that it's much faster than any other Necro spec, and giving it breathing room will be a lot more dangerous for the opponent than it would be against the rest. As soon as you step away from it it's going to absolutely blast you with damage, but who's going to range it when it folds so easily to pressure? 

It's not much faster than Reaper in practice.

[Zalavaaris.5329]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Arenanet's solution is going to be to nerf scourge.

I'll legit ask for a refund and quit gw2 if they pull that bs balancing act. I hate that balance... let's make something good, nerf it, and nerf the only other good option to drive expac sales. Gtfo of here with that.... (aimed at anet not you)

[Infusion.7149]

4 minutes ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

I'll legit ask for a refund and quit gw2 if they pull that bs balancing act. I hate that balance... let's make something good, nerf it, and nerf the only other good option to drive expac sales. Gtfo of here with that.... (aimed at anet not you)

It's been called for by major streamers and many in the fractal community. Teapot even said he wanted 25K full cDPS scourge lol (with 38K harbinger , 40K weaver, 33K holo/soulbeast/DH//reaper, 36K full cDPS ren, 30K full cDPS Firebrand, etc).

Edited December 3, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Stand The Wall.6987]

2 hours ago, Bale.3851 said:

36k in harbinger vs 36 in scourge. i dont see the profit?

probably time. you can do a ton of damage on harbinger quickly in pvp whereas scourge is really weak in everything but team fights.

[Asum.4960]

42 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

It's been called for by major streamers and many in the fractal community. Teapot even said he wanted 25K full cDPS scourge lol (with 38K harbinger , 40K weaver, 36K full cDPS ren, 30K full cDPS Firebrand, etc).

I agree with taking DPS down across the board in general, just putting Scourge on 25k is obviously nonsense though. Power/Div Renegade can do that much pretty much just auto attacking, while providing AoE perma Prot, a Group Ferocity buff, Alacrity, decent Might, a unique -50% incoming condition damage buff and self healing for 3k HP/s. 

Hell, celestial Ren can do up to 25k DPS solo self buffed - with largely the same perks.

 

But if Anet just dumpsters Scourge in particular so people have to play their crappy new Harbinger if they want a condi Necro, that would imo indeed be a terrible move. 

Bring damage down, sure. but ~15k disparity just means those classes are dead, no matter any other benefits they might bring (and I'd much rather have them add a few worthwhile mechanics besides damage to things like Weaver or especially Harbinger to get more parity). 

Just doing damage isn't a particularly interesting specialisation "mechanic".

Edited December 3, 2021 by Asum.4960

[Zalavaaris.5329]

44 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

It's been called for by major streamers and many in the fractal community. Teapot even said he wanted 25K full cDPS scourge lol (with 38K harbinger , 40K weaver, 33K holo/soulbeast/DH//reaper, 36K full cDPS ren, 30K full cDPS Firebrand, etc).

Couldn't give a kitten less what streamers say honestly. 

[Shroud.2307]

2 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Arenanet's solution is going to be to nerf scourge.

Sustained damage is lower than anticipated but I expect harbinger will be 39-40K (not 45K as last beta) after another round of rebalancing. Condi quickness is now 27K or so rather than the original 33-34K from last beta.

edit: also @ Shroud, Death Shroud auto is 1s cast time and 1.15 coefficient while Harbinger shroud auto is 0.66 coefficient +torment with 0.5 cast. If you're talking about DPS you're forgetting the "S" which is the time spent.

I understood the topic to be about PvP/WvW, not PvE. If we're talking PvE then yes, Harbinger would likely be much better, so I suppose in that area, at least it would have relevance.

[Infusion.7149]

2 minutes ago, Shroud.2307 said:

I understood the topic to be about PvP/WvW, not PvE. If we're talking PvE then yes, Harbinger would likely be much better, so I suppose in that area, at least it would have relevance.

The coefficients I mentioned are for competitive modes.

----
The input from more experienced players usually transfers into the PVE balance. I say usually because sometimes patches baffle everyone.

21 minutes ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

Couldn't give a kitten less what streamers say honestly. 

Edited December 3, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Zalavaaris.5329]

43 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

The coefficients I mentioned are for competitive modes.

----
The input from more experienced players usually transfers into the PVE balance. I say usually because sometimes patches baffle everyone.

Streamer =/= more experienced. Been playing since 2012 beta weekends and have done all content in this game that could be considered difficult

[Infusion.7149]

4 minutes ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

Streamer =/= more experienced. Been playing since 2012 beta weekends and have done all content in this game that could be considered difficult

Are you in the dev discord for WVW? That's just one example of what I mean by they get input from people in the community who have exposure to more players (i.e. experienced but also with a wide variety of viewpoints and have debated the merits of the viewpoints). They're not going to ask someone who just roams on deadeye about balance for example.

[NasTheBass.7349]

On 12/3/2021 at 7:48 PM, Infusion.7149 said:

Are you in the dev discord for WVW? That's just one example of what I mean by they get input from people in the community who have exposure to more players (i.e. experienced but also with a wide variety of viewpoints and have debated the merits of the viewpoints). They're not going to ask someone who just roams on deadeye about balance for example.

They shouldn't ask anyone but themselves how to go about balance. 

[Infusion.7149]

4 minutes ago, NasTheBass.7349 said:

They shouldn't ask anyone but themselves how to go about balance. 

They ask for feedback and act upon feedback they think is relevant. As any company would.

If you went to a company and left a comment/suggestion/complaint then it is up to them to either act upon it or discard it. If many people have a similar complaint then it is obvious that the issue/complaint should probably have a followup investigation or study. Obviously in Arenanet's case they have internal metrics to go with the complaints.

A very good analogy would be the NHTSA which tests cars for safety on their own yet catalog owner issues. They issue recalls based on common complaints that have safety implications.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[NasTheBass.7349]

I was gonna right a longer reply but go lazy.

This isn't NTSA it's a game studio and if the devs played anything besides PvE.  They would have a better understand of how to balance on their own Accord. But you see players leave "feedback" in all shapes and forms and yet it seems none of it is taken into consideration as you can clearly tell with how poor the necro is as a class. 

[Infusion.7149]

1 hour ago, NasTheBass.7349 said:

I was gonna right a longer reply but go lazy.

This isn't NTSA it's a game studio and if the devs played anything besides PvE.  They would have a better understand of how to balance on their own Accord. But you see players leave "feedback" in all shapes and forms and yet it seems none of it is taken into consideration as you can clearly tell with how poor the necro is as a class. 

You're right it's a game studio, which is all the more reason not to take things so seriously as it isn't life or death. Many players on this forum are quite alarmist, if 1K DPS gets taken away they are up in arms over it.

Necro (scourge in particular)  is actually very strong in PVE right now relative to a few years ago when top necro DPS was ~28K. Core necro , support scourge, and power reaper have been strong in PVP for a while after the damage nerfs last year and WVW power scourge became stronger indirectly due to the nerf to Purity of Purpose in WVW.

You're wrong about devs not playing WvW or PVP , they might just not show their arenanet tags since they want to be left alone. I see grouch in WVW quite often and one dev (including one that was laid off in 2019 so they have no stake in this game anymore) I see regularly in WVW too.

[NasTheBass.7349]

I was gonna right a longer reply but go lazy.

This isn't NTSA it's a game studio and if the devs played anything besides PvE.  They would have a better understand of how to balance on their own Accord. But you see players leave "feedback" in all shapes and forms and yet it seems none of it is taken into consideration as you can clearly tell with how poor the necro is as a class. 

 

7 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

You're right it's a game studio, which is all the more reason not to take things so seriously as it isn't life or death. Many players on this forum are quite alarmist, if 1K DPS gets taken away they are up in arms over it.

Necro (scourge in particular)  is actually very strong in PVE right now relative to a few years ago when top necro DPS was ~28K. Core necro , support scourge, and power reaper have been strong in PVP for a while after the damage nerfs last year and WVW power scourge became stronger indirectly due to the nerf to Purity of Purpose in WVW.

You're wrong about devs not playing WvW or PVP , they might just not show their arenanet tags since they want to be left alone. I see grouch in WVW quite often and one dev (including one that was laid off in 2019 so they have no stake in this game anymore) I see regularly in WVW too.

Anything a necro can do, other classes can do better with the exception of aoe.

[Infusion.7149]

Just now, NasTheBass.7349 said:

Anything a necro can do, other classes can do better with the exception of aoe.

This is patently false. I'm not sure what game modes you play but just as some examples:

• Pylon kiting when things are apt to go wrong (deadeye relies solely on damage to heal)
• Wurm strat on Whisper of jormag
• AOE ressing in PVE (Transfusion)
• barrier support in PVE
• barrier support in PVP
• well bombs in WVW
• Epi on mursaat Overseer or on 100CM

[NasTheBass.7349]

5 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

This is patently false. I'm not sure what game modes you play but just as some examples:

• Pylon kiting when things are apt to go wrong (deadeye relies solely on damage to heal)
• Wurm strat on Whisper of jormag
• AOE ressing in PVE (Transfusion)
• barrier support in PVE
• barrier support in PVP
• well bombs in WVW
• Epi on mursaat Overseer or on 100CM

How many of those are aoe related. See former post.

[Dadnir.5038]

On 12/3/2021 at 11:50 PM, Infusion.7149 said:

It's been called for by major streamers and many in the fractal community. Teapot even said he wanted 25K full cDPS scourge lol (with 38K harbinger , 40K weaver, 33K holo/soulbeast/DH//reaper, 36K full cDPS ren, 30K full cDPS Firebrand, etc).

I guess after working his kitten since HoT release to make people accept necromancer as a meta pick in PvE Teapot need a new challenge. That said, his logic is probably that 25k full cDPS scourge would still be pretty useful thanks to epi (as epi don't count for the DPS since it only spread the condition). On another hand, it's unrealistic number since he would have to nerf core to drop to this level of cDPS with scourge which would drop the cDPS of all spec and make a 38k DPS harbinger a sweet dream.

All this logic is based on balancing around epidemic which isn't something that should be done. If the necromancer is carried by epidemic then epidemic need to be changed not the things that are around epidemic.

37k cDPS scourge is fine, 37k cDPS scourge + epidemic might not be fine, thought.

[Agrippa.1693]

1 hour ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I guess after working his kitten since HoT release to make people accept necromancer as a meta pick in PvE Teapot need a new challenge. That said, his logic is probably that 25k full cDPS scourge would still be pretty useful thanks to epi (as epi don't count for the DPS since it only spread the condition). On another hand, it's unrealistic number since he would have to nerf core to drop to this level of cDPS with scourge which would drop the cDPS of all spec and make a 38k DPS harbinger a sweet dream.

All this logic is based on balancing around epidemic which isn't something that should be done. If the necromancer is carried by epidemic then epidemic need to be changed not the things that are around epidemic.

37k cDPS scourge is fine, 37k cDPS scourge + epidemic might not be fine, thought.

Indeed, this is one of the most major problems. But out-of-the-box skills like Epi, but also things like Portal or even Invisibility are concepts that have the tendency to break stuff, and on the other hand are the staples (sometimes even USP's) of this game. They add that extra bit of spice! I can see why they are reluctant to change it too much.

[Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267]

16 hours ago, NasTheBass.7349 said:

I was gonna right a longer reply but go lazy.

This isn't NTSA it's a game studio and if the devs played anything besides PvE.  They would have a better understand of how to balance on their own Accord.

Lmao, That's real funny. if they "Understand" their own balance? Then tell me. Why do we have a skill that consume blight for more damage, while also having a trait that boost your damage by STACKING Blight. If Anet Understood how to balance, then surely they would understand that it's counter intuitive to consume blight, as you will gain LESS benefits from the traits like Septic Corruption?

Me as the player, didn't make Anet do that, nor did I make anet gut Harbinger only defense. Hell, I wanted MORE defensive options for harbinger, and no where did I see player complained that the regen you have is hard to use or anything like that, NOR did I see anyone complained about the mobility harbinger had, and yet they nerf it for no reason. Don't blame us players for how anet HANDLES The nerf, because it nonsense like that that leads to one group of players getting blamed for the nerf by other groups of players.

Edited December 7, 2021 by Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267