cast time on dragon trigger?

[felix.2386]

..really?..why is there a 1/2 second cast time on dragon trigger...

even tho it's already in a long kitten interruptible stance

 

really?

Edited December 4, 2021 by felix.2386

[oscuro.9720]

Yea, this is something I brought up in the last beta. Between cast time for DT and cast time for the actual skills, there’s about an extra second of stationary animation attached to its use.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

31 minutes ago, felix.2386 said:

..really?..why is there a 1/2 second cast time on dragon trigger...

even tho it's already in a long kitten interruptible stance

 

really?

Just accept it. Let it go.

 

 

Edited December 4, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

46 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Just accept it. Let it go.

 

 

Kubler-Ross would be so proud.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

cUs bAlAnCe

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

cUs bAlAnCe

TrAdEOfF

[DanAlcedo.3281]

2 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

TrAdEOfF

Anet said the no weapon swap was the Tradeoff. 

Every single other negative part is just a feature. 

 

[oscuro.9720]

11 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Anet said the no weapon swap was the Tradeoff. 

Every single other negative part is just a feature. 

 

List of trade offs:

- No weapon swap

- No burst skills on normal weapon set

- 100 adrenaline instead of 30 (now only requires 50)*

- Stand still to charge burst skill

Lost of Benefits Received:

- Kit weapon

- Flexible burst mode

If I were to be balancing the Costs vs Benefits, I would most likely do the following;

- return burst skill to weapon set and cap at 10 flow (tier 1) 

- unbind flow from dragon trigger 

- give flow a new function, such as enhancing gunsabre weapons

Now there are similar benefits and costs. 

[Crinn.7864]

On 12/4/2021 at 12:53 AM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

TrAdEOfF

 

I'm convinced ArenaNet was so traumatized by the power creep disaster that HoT and PoF releases where that they are terrified of giving EoD specs anything without a dozen tradeoffs.

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

On 12/4/2021 at 2:18 PM, oscuro.9720 said:

List of trade offs:

- No weapon swap

- No burst skills on normal weapon set

- 100 adrenaline instead of 30 (now only requires 50)*

- Stand still to charge burst skill

Lost of Benefits Received:

- Kit weapon

- Flexible burst mode

If I were to be balancing the Costs vs Benefits, I would most likely do the following;

- return burst skill to weapon set and cap at 10 flow (tier 1) 

- unbind flow from dragon trigger 

- give flow a new function, such as enhancing gunsabre weapons

Now there are similar benefits and costs. 

We have all of those tradeoffs that we just have to accept what tradeoffs did other classes have? Did they all get 4 tradeoffs too?

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

13 minutes ago, Crinn.7864 said:

 

I'm convinced ArenaNet was so traumatized by the power creep disaster that HoT and PoF releases where that they are terrified of giving EoD specs anything without a dozen tradeoffs.

Yep, but you have to look at this at high level when you're making these specs. If you're making a spec where the damage is all frontloaded, when balancing for competitive you either:

*make the spec do less damage and make the ritual easier*

or 

*make the ritual difficult to do and make the payoff insane.* 

Having even a cursory understanding of why people play games would allow you to draw the conclusion that people don't enjoy working harder for the same (never mind -less-) reward. Having a cursory understand of the state of the warrior forums between HoT and now would also accomplish that.

You can be scared of breaking the game but you're shipping something you want people to pay for.  It it's going to be weak dropping in, it has to at least be fun.  

 

On 12/4/2021 at 3:18 PM, oscuro.9720 said:

List of trade offs:

- No weapon swap

- No burst skills on normal weapon set

- 100 adrenaline instead of 30 (now only requires 50)*

- Stand still to charge burst skill

Lost of Benefits Received:

- Kit weapon

- Flexible burst mode

If I were to be balancing the Costs vs Benefits, I would most likely do the following;

- return burst skill to weapon set and cap at 10 flow (tier 1) 

- unbind flow from dragon trigger 

- give flow a new function, such as enhancing gunsabre weapons

Now there are similar benefits and costs. 

See below:

We should just take the WHOLE Dragon trigger skill.... - Warrior - Guild Wars 2 Forums

Edited December 9, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Infusion.7149]

37 minutes ago, Crinn.7864 said:

 

I'm convinced ArenaNet was so traumatized by the power creep disaster that HoT and PoF releases where that they are terrified of giving EoD specs anything without a dozen tradeoffs.

Doesn't seem to apply for guardian. Every single tradeoff on willbender was removed.

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

4 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Doesn't seem to apply for guardian. Every single tradeoff on willbender was removed.

Well we can't punish the favorite child.

[Kodama.6453]

1 hour ago, Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

We have all of those tradeoffs that we just have to accept what tradeoffs did other classes have? Did they all get 4 tradeoffs too?

Mechanist lost access to 27 different skills because of the removal of the toolbelt, including a healing skill, 3 stunbreaks, several hard hitters like grenade barrage or big ol' bomb.

So at least this class also got heavily struck with the trade-off hammer.

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

4 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Mechanist lost access to 27 different skills because of the removal of the toolbelt, including a healing skill, 3 stunbreaks, several hard hitters like grenade barrage or big ol' bomb.

So at least this class also got heavily struck with the trade-off hammer.

That's more skills than we have...

[Vancho.8750]

20 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Mechanist lost access to 27 different skills because of the removal of the toolbelt, including a healing skill, 3 stunbreaks, several hard hitters like grenade barrage or big ol' bomb.

So at least this class also got heavily struck with the trade-off hammer.

Well if you count it this way warrior loses 7 to 9(if you count the underwater) skills and the combination of the second weapon set 39 skills here but lets divide those since you can have one set here lets say 20, considering most of the weapons are kinda bad without the burst skill. The 27 for 9 on the mech seem fine trade if the mech skills are good and cool, which they are, considering that it allows engi into other playstyles. I know it sucks that since Holo got extra kitten on top now engi doesn't get extra row of skills , but if the mech skills are good at what they are supposed to do it is fine, since you can always switch to scrapper or Holo for the toolbelt skills.

This time around thief got the extra skills which kinda sucks cause it comes with a mechanic that is supposed to not be in tandem with great mobility or defensive abilities, personally I think this one should have gotten the single weapon treatment.

Pretty sure the whole point of the Mechanist spec is to fill something that engi doesn't do usually but also not make it engi +++. Arenanet could have went in and added extra effects based on the toolbelt skill on the mech, like they went out of their way for Soulbeast, but it seems that they started making the elites like 6 months ago and the RP was more important that functionality so they Berserkered it.     

[Infusion.7149]

@Kodama

Mech attacks while engi in downstate. If you're saying bladesworn is better meme in in competitive than mechanist then you have a clear bias. Especially when the DPS of the mech is probably as high as dragon trigger without full charges.

[Kodama.6453]

12 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

@Kodama

Mech attacks while engi in downstate. If you're saying bladesworn is better meme in in competitive than mechanist then you have a clear bias. Especially when the DPS of the mech is probably as high as dragon trigger without full charges.

I never said such a thing, tho. I just said that mechanist is one of the classes in this round of elite specs which got a heavy trade off, since it removes the entire toolbelt.

And I think it is a fair statement to say that giving up so many skills, which hold many important functions like healing and stunbreaks, is a pretty big trade off.

[Vancho.8750]

On 12/11/2021 at 5:03 PM, Kodama.6453 said:

I never said such a thing, tho. I just said that mechanist is one of the classes in this round of elite specs which got a heavy trade off, since it removes the entire toolbelt.

And I think it is a fair statement to say that giving up so many skills, which hold many important functions like healing and stunbreaks, is a pretty big trade off.

Mechanist should probably get a heal skill since it does not equal the toolbelt slots on eng, it only has the 3 toolbelt skills ala mech and the "Elite" Crash down.
It should also probably get a Strict follow button that makes the mech move along side the engi, basically locking it to the character. 

[Infusion.7149]

1 hour ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Mechanist should probably get a heal skill since it does not equal the toolbelt slots on eng, it only has the 3 toolbelt skills ala mech and the "Elite" Crash down.
It should also probably get a Strict follow button that makes the mech move along side the engi, basically locking it to the character. 

I'm not sure if you tested Mech in the last beta but it had return to me added and the "leashing mechanism" was changed.
In addition, mechanist does have a heal skill it's called rectifier signet.

[Vancho.8750]

1 minute ago, Infusion.7149 said:

I'm not sure if you tested Mech in the last beta but it had return to me added and the "leashing mechanism" was changed.
In addition, mechanist does have a heal skill it's called rectifier signet.

Yes but engi loses the toolbelt heal skill, mechanist is one less button than engi, The mech by itself is enough of a pro and a con. 

Also I didn't bother with the last Beta, made a Bladesworn saw they "fixed' the bugs and didn't bother checking anything else, since I had enough disappointment as is, and I couldn't be bothered with their kitten fixes on everything else. My opinion on mechanist is based on videos from the last beta and how the mech moved stupidly around. 

[Kodama.6453]

52 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Yes but engi loses the toolbelt heal skill, mechanist is one less button than engi, The mech by itself is enough of a pro and a con. 

And because of this, mechanist is literally disabled from triggering "on healing skill" effects if using med kit, since the toolbelt usually triggers these. And engineer has quite some traits triggering on healing skills, even in their minor traits.....

So yeah, this is a general design flaw of the spec.

[Vancho.8750]

25 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

And because of this, mechanist is literally disabled from triggering "on healing skill" effects if using med kit, since the toolbelt usually triggers these. And engineer has quite some traits triggering on healing skills, even in their minor traits.....

So yeah, this is a general design flaw of the spec.

All specs have flaws, but people ignore them since some have big numbers. Its ok cause it does bajilion damage or it keeps these boons forever yada yada kitten and one patch comes and it turns out that the fundamentals do not work , short history of the warrior specs. It feels like Arenanet does not learn from the past at all. 

[Infusion.7149]

1 hour ago, Vancho.8750 said:

All specs have flaws, but people ignore them since some have big numbers. Its ok cause it does bajilion damage or it keeps these boons forever yada yada kitten and one patch comes and it turns out that the fundamentals do not work , short history of the warrior specs. It feels like Arenanet does not learn from the past at all. 

Dragon Trigger is so flawed it is unbelievable but the issue is masked by absurd damage in PVE. It's legit worse than core warrior unless you manage to full charge Dragon Trigger and hit with it in full glass while not dying. Imagine if whirling axe on axe was stationary and only had one hit, that's basically Dragon Trigger with at least double damage (and this is not an exaggeration, look at any DPS log and full charge Dragon Trigger is around 2800ms while Whirling Axe is ~2600ms duration with quickness, Hundred Blades is ~2400ms duration with quickness , Arc Divider is something akin to 1200ms with quickness). Flaming Flurry on Berserker's sword burst is roughly the same cast time , always has 2.0 coefficient plus burning , isn't fully mitigated by single hit blocks, and it has the ability to move and has 900 range.

Berserker may be a bad meme in PVP but at least if you hit someone in Berserk mode it does "big damage" , with Decapitate for example you can even chain it without traits and Gunflame is for montages and fun casual videos. In WVW , on Berserker with supports Arc Divider has large AOE (which was copied for Untamed) and actual damage. Bladesworn has the main Berserker drawback (no core burst and you need to enter a "mode" to burst) but compounded with the cast time and root. If they were going to root people and keep the cast time that high it really should do "big damage".

With full glass 2971 power I had the following:

• Dragon Trigger - Force (the melee range one) = 1023 max damage chat link ; with weird "second order polynomial" math it's supposedly ~1.3 max coefficient
• Dragon Trigger - Boost (the 750 range dash) = 819 max damage chat link , supposedly ~1.04 max coefficient
• Dragon Trigger - Reach (900 range line attack) = 717 max damage chat link , supposedly ~0.91 max coefficient

All these could probably be increased by at least 50%, if someone allows you to full charge a melee range Dragon Trigger and not react (unblockable doesn't mean you can't avoid or mitigate it) they deserve to die anyway. Due to the nonlinear nature of the skill's damage it's far worse if you don't full charge it.

Decapitate is 2.0 coefficient and loops if you hit with it and so is a level 3 Eviscerate ; Flurry (core burst) is ~2.0 coefficient ; Arc Divider is ~2.1 coefficient across 3 hits , Scorched Earth and Gunflame are both ~1.5 coefficient and ranged. You can legitimately run Flurry with ~2.0 coefficient ; Eviscerate with 1.3 coefficient at level 1 burst or Arcing Slice on Spellbreaker and get 1.2 coefficient even at full health targets which is near what you get on Dragon Trigger - Force without needing the charge time whatsoever.

 

 

Edited December 12, 2021 by Infusion.7149