harbinger vs reaper

[Lynx.9058]

Kinda torn here.  I got my necromancer to 80 and farmed up a bunch of hero points and condi gear in anticipation of going Harbinger, and while I like the pistol and some aspects of the class, overall it feels entirely too squishy and I really hate the way elixirs work.

 

Before the eod betas/ spec reveals I had planned on going reaper, and now it's looking like the more attractive option again.  It's tanky as hell, can run few different builds where Harbinger really feels stuck doing one thing and one thing only, and seems like it could go either power or conditions or even tank well.

 

Any advice?

[Crikk.3854]

I've been maiming a Power, melee Reaper since Hot.  It's so tanky (even with zerk stats) that I find it hard to play other profs!  Damage output is very good to.

I had been hoping Harbinger would be good just so I could have a change of pace, but it's so all over the map that it doesn't do anything well right now.

So if you only have the points to unlock one, I'd unlock Reaper.  Still have plenty enough time to unlock enough points to unlock Harbinger on release if you want to.

I'm just hoping they go back to the drawing board with it and/or take some of the advice from players and that Eod release Harbinger is very different than beta 4 Harbinger.

Edited December 4, 2021 by Crikk.3854
Fix autocorrect typos

[Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267]

13 minutes ago, Lynx.9058 said:

Kinda torn here.  I got my necromancer to 80 and farmed up a bunch of hero points and condi gear in anticipation of going Harbinger, and while I like the pistol and some aspects of the class, overall it feels entirely too squishy and I really hate the way elixirs work.

 

Before the eod betas/ spec reveals I had planned on going reaper, and now it's looking like the more attractive option again.  It's tanky as hell, can run few different builds where Harbinger really feels stuck doing one thing and one thing only, and seems like it could go either power or conditions or even tank well.

 

Any advice?

 

 

Harbinger IS Squishy. But a lot of people wouldn't have a problem with that if the elite spec actually has some sort of defense. It used to, in form of your mobility and your regen, but anet thought it was a good idea to gut it. So now your max health is reduce by 37.5% once you have enough blight, AND, Your shroud no longer protect you. And I can promise you now, unless anet gives it a defense, you will feel worthless as a harbinger. Damage doesn't mean anything if you're like a weaver, without using any of its sustain and invuln.

 

Stick to reaper. It's a far better class.

[ASP.8093]

You don't have to choose one and commit to it forever. Any built-up character can freely swap between all the elite specs.

Reaper is strong in open world, reliably holds its own in other contexts, and reasonably accessible to play. It's also available right now — if you like the spec, go make one, by the time EoD drops you'll have a nicely-geared and capable character and you can always swap their skills/traits/gear to Harbinger later if it turns out "the grass is greener on the other side."

Note that Scourge can also make very excellent use of PvE condi gear. Viper Scourge is real top-tier stuff in instanced group PvE.

Edited December 4, 2021 by ASP.8093

[Esorono.1039]

1 hour ago, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

 

 

Harbinger IS Squishy. But a lot of people wouldn't have a problem with that if the elite spec actually has some sort of defense. It used to, in form of your mobility and your regen, but anet thought it was a good idea to gut it. So now your max health is reduce by 37.5% once you have enough blight, AND, Your shroud no longer protect you. And I can promise you now, unless anet gives it a defense, you will feel worthless as a harbinger. Damage doesn't mean anything if you're like a weaver, without using any of its sustain and invuln.

 

Stick to reaper. It's a far better class.

Weaver is definitely squishy and difficult to play and get used to. But most Weaver builds do actually have rather decent defense with the right rotation. 

I forget if this is before or after the barrier nerfs however I must admit. This is generally what people want with a glass cannon build however, somewhat difficult to play but high dps and good survivability if played well. Harbinger however does not have this option. It will mostly rely on a Firebrand giving it Aegis to live, to add insult to injury, it does less damage than a Scourge, and arguably less utility as you are going to need Aegis support from a Firebrand so you are going to have quickness covered, barrier however is rather useful. Not everyone plays perfectly, and there will almost always that one player that whoops into stupid. Just that no one really wants to admit that they need help staying alive due to mistakes.

On to the thread topic itself, Reaper is a rather good choice for solo play. It easily stacks might and vulnerability to 25, has a 100% crit chance in shroud, and gives itself quickness. On top of that it has an effective 35,120 hp in full berserker gear. This makes it look very powerful, but once you put it in the group it becomes less impressive because they will all passively do this anyways to everyone.

Scourge is better for group play, damage ramps up rather slowly, but defends itself and allies very well with barrier and cleanses them of conditions while putting out rather good dps. However it can handle pretty much anything by itself, especially with Trailblazers with a Rune of Tormenting set up. But has a lot less offensive pressure in comparison when solo.

Harbinger in it's current iteration doesn't really bring anything new to the group, it's just another 5 man quickness applier with low damage comparable with quickness scrapper but with less group utility until that 90 second elite comes off cooldown so you can give 5 seconds of every boon. Still squishy, and its Condi DPS build is slightly lower than scourge and does nothing but damage.

Edited December 4, 2021 by Esorono.1039

[Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267]

5 hours ago, Esorono.1039 said:

Weaver is definitely squishy and difficult to play and get used to. But most Weaver builds do actually have rather decent defense with the right rotation. 

I forget if this is before or after the barrier nerfs however I must admit. This is generally what people want with a glass cannon build however, somewhat difficult to play but high dps and good survivability if played well. Harbinger however does not have this option. It will mostly rely on a Firebrand giving it Aegis to live, to add insult to injury, it does less damage than a Scourge, and arguably less utility as you are going to need Aegis support from a Firebrand so you are going to have quickness covered, barrier however is rather useful. Not everyone plays perfectly, and there will almost always that one player that whoops into stupid. Just that no one really wants to admit that they need help staying alive due to mistakes.

On to the thread topic itself, Reaper is a rather good choice for solo play. It easily stacks might and vulnerability to 25, has a 100% crit chance in shroud, and gives itself quickness. On top of that it has an effective 35,120 hp in full berserker gear. This makes it look very powerful, but once you put it in the group it becomes less impressive because they will all passively do this anyways to everyone.

Scourge is better for group play, damage ramps up rather slowly, but defends itself and allies very well with barrier and cleanses them of conditions while putting out rather good dps. However it can handle pretty much anything by itself, especially with Trailblazers with a Rune of Tormenting set up. But has a lot less offensive pressure in comparison when solo.

Harbinger in it's current iteration doesn't really bring anything new to the group, it's just another 5 man quickness applier with low damage comparable with quickness scrapper but with less group utility until that 90 second elite comes off cooldown so you can give 5 seconds of every boon. Still squishy, and its Condi DPS build is slightly lower than scourge and does nothing but damage.

It amazed me sometimes that a simple misread will result in someone making an small essay. But, hey, Thanks for proving my point nonetheless.

[Esorono.1039]

4 hours ago, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

It amazed me sometimes that a simple misread will result in someone making an small essay. But, hey, Thanks for proving my point nonetheless.

Whoops, turns out I did, my bad. I should stop trying to read and post on the forums when I am half asleep.

[Infusion.7149]

Reaper is the class every healer hates in instanced content. Don't be that person.
Unless an encounter is specifically favoring power (such as Keep Construct / Conjured Amalgamate) you should play scourge or harbinger since both allow you to be healed.

[Lynx.9058]

8 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Reaper is the class every healer hates in instanced content. Don't be that person.
Unless an encounter is specifically favoring power (such as Keep Construct / Conjured Amalgamate) you should play scourge or harbinger since both allow you to be healed.

 

Why is that, just curious?

 

I almost exclusively play solo / open world content, and I'm not particularly interested in scourge, just don't like the theme of it.  Reaper with summons and greatsword reminds me a lot of my old wow death knight though, which was a lot of fun.

[SunTzu.4513]

17 minutes ago, Lynx.9058 said:

Why is that, just curious?

If you are in Shroud you can not be healed. So if you drop to low health before you enter Shroud the whole Team around can get healed up but you stay at your low HP. This can lead to the problem, that if you need to dodge in Shroud and use all your rolls you have nearly no defense options if you get out of shroud. So the healer need to focus heal you (And maybe needs to use cooldowns) and pay extra attention to you, he can not dps at this time.

[Infusion.7149]

28 minutes ago, Lynx.9058 said:

 

Why is that, just curious?

 

I almost exclusively play solo / open world content, and I'm not particularly interested in scourge, just don't like the theme of it.  Reaper with summons and greatsword reminds me a lot of my old wow death knight though, which was a lot of fun.

PUG reapers have this terrible tendency to go into shroud right before they are about to die after eating damage, so if you're a healer (so healbrand/druid/tempest/heal scourge/etc) and you waste your longer cooldown burst heals on someone that does that they don't get the heal.

The UI also doesn't provide a 100% differentiation from the normal healthbar of your teammates and life force so if you are trying to get an achievement that needs everyone to be stay alive for example it can cause people to panic. The shroud lifebar can look like the healthbar to people that are colorblind.

In addition, in many cases instanced content doesn't have add mobs so shroud is terrible bacause if you get hit then your shroud uptime is poor so half your spec (Reaper Shroud) is not going to be useful. A major example of this is on Boneskinner.

TL;DR: death shroud/ reaper shroud is generally a bad profession mechanic for group content.

Edited December 5, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Esorono.1039]

26 minutes ago, Lynx.9058 said:

 

Why is that, just curious?

 

I almost exclusively play solo / open world content, and I'm not particularly interested in scourge, just don't like the theme of it.  Reaper with summons and greatsword reminds me a lot of my old wow death knight though, which was a lot of fun.

Also on top of what the other two said, pets have their own problems. Like not only is it not optimal, but they will also kill themselves by standing in stupid and some boon granting skills still do not prioritize players over pets and will eat them.

[Dr Meta.3158]

20 hours ago, Esorono.1039 said:

Weaver is definitely squishy and difficult to play and get used to. But most Weaver builds do actually have rather decent defense with the right rotation. 

I forget if this is before or after the barrier nerfs however I must admit. This is generally what people want with a glass cannon build however, somewhat difficult to play but high dps and good survivability if played well. Harbinger however does not have this option. It will mostly rely on a Firebrand giving it Aegis to live, to add insult to injury, it does less damage than a Scourge, and arguably less utility as you are going to need Aegis support from a Firebrand so you are going to have quickness covered, barrier however is rather useful. Not everyone plays perfectly, and there will almost always that one player that whoops into stupid. Just that no one really wants to admit that they need help staying alive due to mistakes.

On to the thread topic itself, Reaper is a rather good choice for solo play. It easily stacks might and vulnerability to 25, has a 100% crit chance in shroud, and gives itself quickness. On top of that it has an effective 35,120 hp in full berserker gear. This makes it look very powerful, but once you put it in the group it becomes less impressive because they will all passively do this anyways to everyone.

Scourge is better for group play, damage ramps up rather slowly, but defends itself and allies very well with barrier and cleanses them of conditions while putting out rather good dps. However it can handle pretty much anything by itself, especially with Trailblazers with a Rune of Tormenting set up. But has a lot less offensive pressure in comparison when solo.

Harbinger in it's current iteration doesn't really bring anything new to the group, it's just another 5 man quickness applier with low damage comparable with quickness scrapper but with less group utility until that 90 second elite comes off cooldown so you can give 5 seconds of every boon. Still squishy, and its Condi DPS build is slightly lower than scourge and does nothing but damage.

Not even that man, reaper had essentially a 52k effective HP with the damage reduction along with having the massive sustain available through % based lifeforce gain and the greater amount of lifeforce gain compared to life gain. Harbinger simply does not even come close to the survivability that reaper has and before harbinger, reaper was the squishest necromancer spec since it has higher lifeforce drain than core necromancer and scourge out damages and outsustains reaper by a large margin in trailblazer gear. And harbinger is over 3 times less durable than that considering both maximum life and sustainability while dealing less damage than scourge. It also really has less mobility if you consider the difference in leap cooldowns and that's before reaper's onslaught is considered. It's a class that needs to be deleted and remade from the ground up.

[Kronos.2560]

Har in it's current form is not worth even unlocking. Reaper is the way to go. Maybe they will change it for the better but if the changes from beta 1 and 4 we're an indicator it will just get worse. (Dps gutted, mobility and heal in shroud). 

Reaper has a huge health pool, good dps, stabil+fear in shroud, basically same leap range, better trait synergy etc. So pick that for now. If they actually do fix har in a meaningful way then unlock it at that time. I imagine getting the extra hps will be easy if pof was an indicator.

[Methuselah.4376]

Ye don't bother with Harbinger atm. It's been gutted to near uselessness. Reaper is far safer and has a condi build that outdpses Harbinger. 

[Lynx.9058]

5 minutes ago, Methuselah.4376 said:

Ye don't bother with Harbinger atm. It's been gutted to near uselessness. Reaper is far safer and has a condi build that outdpses Harbinger. 

I thought power was the way to go for reaper?

[Methuselah.4376]

2 minutes ago, Lynx.9058 said:

I thought power was the way to go for reaper?

It has a good power build at 34k. But with recent changes, it now has a condi build that benches at 37k

[Esorono.1039]

Now I am starting to wonder if power Scourge does more dps than power Harbinger.

[Zenith.7301]

1 hour ago, Methuselah.4376 said:

It has a good power build at 34k. But with recent changes, it now has a condi build that benches at 37k

 

34k is what power renegade puts out, and it's garbage tier when other power specs are benching 37-39k, not to mention the EOD specs which are pushing 44k+

 

Even if power or condi reaper were doing 37k, why would you use it over a condi scourge that gives the group 2-3k barriers rotationally every 10 seconds, cleanses conditions off the group, boonstrips, and can be healed through shroud while doing the same or similar DPS?

 

Reaper is garbage in group PvE.

Edited December 5, 2021 by Zenith.7301

[Kronos.2560]

3 hours ago, Zenith.7301 said:

 

34k is what power renegade puts out, and it's garbage tier when other power specs are benching 37-39k, not to mention the EOD specs which are pushing 44k+

 

Even if power or condi reaper were doing 37k, why would you use it over a condi scourge that gives the group 2-3k barriers rotationally every 10 seconds, cleanses conditions off the group, boonstrips, and can be healed through shroud while doing the same or similar DPS?

 

Reaper is garbage in group PvE.

Reaper is garbage In group PvE according to you compared to scourge (Which for min maxing you are probably right).

 

But back to the initial problem Reaper blows Harbinger out of the water in just about every way except quickness sharing. I think people just want Har to be even the level of garbage you said above! Because if Reaper is Always a better choice in any content that is a problem.

[CafPow.1542]

On 12/4/2021 at 6:07 PM, Lynx.9058 said:

Any advice?

 

 

don't lock yourself on one specc?

i switch between 3-5 different Builds every day, even during fractals. just like swapping utilities.

like epidemic is not worth it most of the Time, only if you can cleave stuff. why have it in your bar then?

same goes for the entire Specc and most of them have specific pros in specific situations.

 

/edit:

and the benchmarks are somewhat irrelevant. they are a method of measurment among speccs but don't lead to any conclusion concerning viabilty.

Edited December 6, 2021 by CafPow.1542

[Shinigami.5230]

On 12/4/2021 at 7:25 PM, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

 

 

Harbinger IS Squishy. But a lot of people wouldn't have a problem with that if the elite spec actually has some sort of defense. It used to, in form of your mobility and your regen, but anet thought it was a good idea to gut it. So now your max health is reduce by 37.5% once you have enough blight, AND, Your shroud no longer protect you. And I can promise you now, unless anet gives it a defense, you will feel worthless as a harbinger. Damage doesn't mean anything if you're like a weaver, without using any of its sustain and invuln.

 

Stick to reaper. It's a far better class.

you dont even outdamage other elite specs for necro  to begin with to even pick it up

if u want power u will go reaper,if condi or support you will go scourge cuz barriers are better than boons harbinger gives and boons can be provided better by a firebrand or in EoDs case catalyst or mechanist or even freaking thief (specter)

 

[Puck.3697]

1 hour ago, Shinigami.5230 said:

you dont even outdamage other elite specs for necro  to begin with to even pick it up

if u want power u will go reaper,if condi or support you will go scourge cuz barriers are better than boons harbinger gives and boons can be provided better by a firebrand or in EoDs case catalyst or mechanist or even freaking thief (specter)

except in actual play the likelyhood is Harbinger is gonna be the go to option over reaper on a realistic level.

Reapers shroud making the player unhealable while providing a "Green bar"that could be mistaken for them dying.. or becoming unhealable during periods fo time causes  ahuge pain in the butt realistically, Harbinger doesnt suffer the same problems. its also very likely Harbingers DPS Will be buffed before live realistically.

Im sorry. but to think Reapers gonna still be the better choice for Power is crazy in all honesty. atleast in Organised PvE content.

Edited January 5, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Asum.4960]

35 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

except in actual play the likelyhood is Harbinger is gonna be the go to option over reaper on a realistic level.

Reapers shroud making the player unhealable while providing a "Green bar"that could be mistaken for them dying.. or becoming unhealable during periods fo time causes  ahuge pain in the butt realistically, Harbinger doesnt suffer the same problems. its also very likely Harbingers DPS Will be buffed before live realistically.

Im sorry. but to think Reapers gonna still be the better choice for Power is crazy in all honesty. atleast in Organised PvE content.

The replacing healthbar really isn't that big of a deal. Can it sometimes be annoying, sure, but rarely more than that. Healers are incredibly potent in GW2, and encounter pressure/content difficulty generally fairly low in terms of consistent pressure - so everybody is usually at full health anyway aside from the big nuke here and there, and if a Reaper goes into Shroud directly after that rather than waiting a second or two for a quick full heal, missing out on Scholar's too, that a misplay to begin with. 

 

Besides, Harbinger Shroud too replaces health in the UI and can be mistaken the same way, just without the heal preventing issue, which again, I wouldn't call "a huge pain in the butt" rather than a inconvenience.

 

As for Power DPS, even when Wicked Corruption was at 25% increased Strike damage in Beta 1, before the 50% nerf, Harbinger was well over 10k power DPS behind Reaper, so they would need to buff it like crazy to even remotely compete, especially considering how much less cleave and survivability it provides, Harbinger doesn't seem to be on track to compete in anyway with Reaper in any game mode.

[LucianDK.8615]

56 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

The replacing healthbar really isn't that big of a deal. Can it sometimes be annoying, sure, but rarely more than that. Healers are incredibly potent in GW2, and encounter pressure/content difficulty generally fairly low in terms of consistent pressure - so everybody is usually at full health anyway aside from the big nuke here and there, and if a Reaper goes into Shroud directly after that rather than waiting a second or two for a quick full heal, missing out on Scholar's too, that a misplay to begin with. 

 

Besides, Harbinger Shroud too replaces health in the UI and can be mistaken the same way, just without the heal preventing issue, which again, I wouldn't call "a huge pain in the butt" rather than a inconvenience.

 

As for Power DPS, even when Wicked Corruption was at 25% increased Strike damage in Beta 1, before the 50% nerf, Harbinger was well over 10k power DPS behind Reaper, so they would need to buff it like crazy to even remotely compete, especially considering how much less cleave and survivability it provides, Harbinger doesn't seem to be on track to compete in anyway with Reaper in any game mode.

 

Makes you wonder why they even included power traits. But condi is definitely where it is at for Harbingers.