Virtuoso Needs Off-hand Dagger

[Urphen.2857]

1 hour ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

I didn't even need to click on the link to guess.

Yeah yeah, bunny thumper.

They just had to... it shows the lack of creativity and imagination. 

Occasionally going back in time to see what else can be extracted from gw1.

It's a surprise that monk 80HP hasn't re-emerged yet.

So why not bring back Paragon and Dervish... or even Ritualist for that matter?

They'd better...

Do us all a favour and stop the class restrictions on weapons. 

Just give every class every weapon and players would create their own playstyles and combos as they see fit... might aswell that we're at it.

 

Ok. To be fair, get 5 skills just like everybody else.

I have no issues with that.

But IMO I'd rather compromise on quantity if that meant quality. 

An extra dagger and 2 more skills doesn't necessarily means that would improve the ES.

A lot of people are unhappy with it, and in their prespective (Not mine), it would be just like adding more salt to a wound.

Bunnythumper is what many wished and so they got hammer, all weapon for core is a thing that won't happen even it would be better if the spec weapons could be used on all specs from the class.

 

I don't think Anet will change the weapon they choose, MH pistol would be the same thing like dagger it would be automatically a projectile weapon.

I don't see how adding oh dagger is putting more salt in the wounds, it could add the missing mobility skills, that would be better than nothing like jet, sure it doesn't change Virtu drastically and I'm one of those that are rly unhappy with it but I don't think they will change much thanks to all these strange feedbacks we have that it is so perfect and needs no change, so oh dagger better than nothing

[SoulGuardian.6203]

2 hours ago, Urphen.2857 said:

Bunnythumper is what many wished and so they got hammer, all weapon for core is a thing that won't happen even it would be better if the spec weapons could be used on all specs from the class.

Indeed.

But many, many people also requested a bow or another ranged weapon for eles, and instead they got treated like little kids with a hammer.

"Here, eat your broccoli or go hungry"

 

2 hours ago, Urphen.2857 said:

 

I don't think Anet will change the weapon they choose,

Unfortunately. 

2 hours ago, Urphen.2857 said:

 

 

MH pistol would be the same thing like dagger it would be automatically a projectile weapon.

Not exactly no.

Pistols have way different mechanics than a swinging dagger.

For starters is a lot faster.

I'm not against the dagger, mind... or two.

I just prefer a MH pistol.

But if dagger it is, then so be it. 

I'm just saying that adding an extra 2 skills isn't necessarily going to make the ES better.

2 hours ago, Urphen.2857 said:

I don't see how adding oh dagger is putting more salt in the wounds, it could add the missing mobility skills, that would be better than nothing like jet, sure it doesn't change Virtu drastically and I'm one of those that are rly unhappy with it but I don't think they will change much thanks to all these strange feedbacks we have that it is so perfect and needs no change, so oh dagger better than nothing

Well, we both know that we can't keep everybody happy.

I posted a short feedback, because I felt compelled to do so, but I don't really believe in it... for this reason; Everything is subjective. 

A tremendous player, with good eye-to-hand coordination, and reflexes might find it decent enough.

On the other hand, a casual or camper may feel it's not up to par... or could be the other way around.

We have to find that middle ground between negleted and overpowered.

Where should we draw the line?

 

[Tseison.4659]

So as mentioned, offering the Virtuoso an offhand dagger was a missed opportunity and there are a variety of ideas that could've made it viable. Examples below:

OFFHAND DAGGER
Could've had a dagger phantasm like the one we get when we're downed. I personally wouldn't have a phantasm on it just for something new but at the end of the day, it wouldn't be a too bad of an idea.

The dagger could have attack chains.

Changing weapon skills when swapping to the weapon.

Special conditions that unlock a unique and powerful dagger skill that becomes available when at max stock of Blades.

Dagger weapon skills can have ammunition since we're essentially like Irelia from league of legends, flinging and manifesting daggers everywhere, why limit us?

In regards to the main hand dagger we got, Dagger skill 2 I would've liked if it was like the Warriors Sword skill where you fling and impale an enemy with a psionic blade which inflicts conditions over time, maybe confusion/torment or weakness/cripple/vulnerability, and then once you call your blade back, you inflict damage, remove a boon and cripple them.

Dagger weapon skill 3 could've been a ground targeted bladestorm skill that expands overtime dealing damage and destroying incoming projectiles.

And as a final mention, I personally would've liked if the Virtuoso got Traps. Since we seem to be purely long range focus. One trap can summon a rain of swords when triggered, other traps can have you port to the location and grant you boons, and then other traps can be heavy area control effects.

Again, this is just a thought and definitely was a missed opportunity on their part, but if the dagger we got to play with during beta isn't changed then I definitely won't be using it as I see no value in it.

[eric.3459]

I actually think off-hand dagger is a great idea.

When I initially played the virtuoso, I for some reason thought it had dual daggers, only to find out that I completely misunderstood. 

But why wouldn't it...? It makes sense.

 

Virtuoso Survivability 

I had the same issue with survivability while playing the virtuoso. A lot of specs get insane mobility skills, virtuoso got none. Even the Untamed got a teleport. 

 

Possible Off-hand dagger function

An off-hand dagger can easily provide a block and a mobility function. 

Maybe you earn a blade after a successful block or something.

 

I see no reason not to add off-hand dagger.  

[Leonidrex.5649]

guys, adding off hand dagger wont suddenly make main hand dagger any better.
you are going to be playing sword/sword + sword/X anyways lulW

[Puck.3697]

Virtuosos issue isn't it needing off hand daggers. 

Virtuosos issue is core mesmers been made so weak instant casts and being able to overlap certain abilities + power block has carried this proffession in game modes. 

Virtuoso just got up and put mesmer on cast time projectiles with weak blade songs and no utility. 

Amazingly yeah it sucks.  As if Anet couldn't predict this. 

Mesmers core skillset got nerfed into the absolute ground and alot of what it had got gutted. For virtuoso to ever work they need to rework mesmer realistically at its foundation. 

Anet need to stop bandaiding mesmer with nerfs and deal with things if they feel mirages mechanic is so toxic in the game. Rework mirage. And revert the core mesmer nerfs so its core can be strong enough to utilise more. 

[Raven.8156]

1 minute ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Virtuosos issue isn't it needing off hand daggers. 

Virtuosos issue is core mesmers been made so weak instant casts and being able to overlap certain abilities + power block has carried this proffession in game modes. 

Virtuoso just got up and put mesmer on cast time projectiles with weak blade songs and no utility. 

Amazingly yeah it sucks.  As if Anet couldn't predict this. 

Mesmers core skillset got nerfed into the absolute ground and alot of what it had got gutted. For virtuoso to ever work they need to rework mesmer realistically at its foundation. 

Anet need to stop bandaiding mesmer with nerfs and deal with things if they feel mirages mechanic is so toxic in the game. Rework mirage. And revert the core mesmer nerfs so its core can be strong enough to utilise more. 

A little unrelated. See other discussions for Mesmer rework talks. The issue regarding the lack of survivability with the virtuoso kit remains, and that is the focus, among improving other things related to the specific espec. Off-hand dagger and modifications to the main-hand dagger can go a long way to making the virtuoso viable. 
 

 

[Salt Mode.3780]

As much as I want this to happen as well, it most likely will not happen because of how close EoD release is. Virtuoso was the first spec to be revealed and had much more time then other specs for work done on it especially after the first beta. From the looks of the "changes" we got, it is as clear as night and day that they are leaving Virtuoso the way it is. 

This isn't being "negative" its being realistic.

[Tseison.4659]

33 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

As much as I want this to happen as well, it most likely will not happen because of how close EoD release is. Virtuoso was the first spec to be revealed and had much more time then other specs for work done on it especially after the first beta. From the looks of the "changes" we got, it is as clear as night and day that they are leaving Virtuoso the way it is. 

This isn't being "negative" its being realistic.

And with “how close the EOD expansion is” I’d rather they delay it an extra month or two because everything seems pretty rushed and I already predict it getting pushed back a bit given the holidays and other events pertaining to the pandemic.

[Infusion.7149]

Virtuoso is probably going to end up mediocre for PVE raids and maybe lower tier fractals where you wouldn't run mirage, if you want to do the "full ranged" thing you can use d/focus and GS , there's a bench for d/s + GS so I'd imagine d/f wouldn't be massively off.

The issue with it in competitive is the projectiles and barely any sustain in the traitline (aegis on bladesongs is not it) especially if you give up clones. In fact I would say dagger isn't much of an improvement over greatsword in the WvW sense if you are just looking for ranged DPS. Blowing all your bladesong burst or CC into a block or especially a reflect is a catastrophe.

Adding yet another dagger doesn't fix this.

[Salt Mode.3780]

Adding another dagger might not fix things in the PvE side granted they also nerfed dmg for some weird reason, but in competitive depending on what skills fall under the offhand can pair with main hand to make things more interesting. Mostly its for Virtuoso to get some form of mobility skill. 

 

[Puck.3697]

6 hours ago, Eric.7813 said:

A little unrelated. See other discussions for Mesmer rework talks. The issue regarding the lack of survivability with the virtuoso kit remains, and that is the focus, among improving other things related to the specific espec. Off-hand dagger and modifications to the main-hand dagger can go a long way to making the virtuoso viable. 
 

 

 

But we also know Anet will never do it regardless. This is brought up every round of elites for proffessions who get 1 handed weapons. 

Anet have never backed down on the decision. They will never last minute throw off hand daggers at the elite. 

2 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Adding another dagger might not fix things in the PvE side granted they also nerfed dmg for some weird reason, but in competitive depending on what skills fall under the offhand can pair with main hand to make things more interesting. Mostly its for Virtuoso to get some form of mobility skill

Aye... But anyone who's been here long enough will know this is something Anet wouldn't do regardless of outcry. 

Warriors the only one who got 2x dagger and apprantly that was down to the weapon master fantasy. 

It'd argue running for kit changes is far more likely to get listened to.

[Kodama.6453]

Honestly, mains of every class except warrior should stop expecting dual wielded weapons for elite specs.

Spellbreaker was the only elite spec they ever designed which got access to both options of a weapon that can be dual wielded. Swords can get dual wielded, but weaver and holosmith just got them for mainhand. Maces can be dual wielded, but mechanist just gets the mainhand. Axes can be dual wielded, but mirage and firebrand just got mainhand. The list goes on and on.

We were getting our hopes up because "if spellbreaker can dual wield daggers, then other classes can get dual wielding for future elite specs, too, right?". But anet doesn't seem to want to give other classes dual wield for some reason.

Always getting your hopes up for cool new weapon combinations with dual wielded weapons and then getting disappointed every time is not worth it.

[Tseison.4659]

1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

 

 

But we also know Anet will never do it regardless. This is brought up every round of elites for proffessions who get 1 handed weapons. 

Anet have never backed down on the decision. They will never last minute throw off hand daggers at the elite. 

Aye... But anyone who's been here long enough will know this is something Anet wouldn't do regardless of outcry. 

Warriors the only one who got 2x dagger and apprantly that was down to the weapon master fantasy. 

It'd argue running for kit changes is far more likely to get listened to.

Okay we get it, and I think as a community we need to stop shutting others down when they have an opinion about changes and adding something new to a class. We’re all not naive and are fully aware that Anet doesn’t listen to any sort of creative ideas PERIOD, unless it happen to be their art contests.

Just because we say “oh they should’ve added offhand dagger and gave it X skills and also change the main hand to X skills” doesn’t automatically mean it’ll make dagger viable but a lot of us don’t want to be stuck equipping the SAME weapon sets, with the SAME shatters on a profession with the most nerfs and clearly with no sense of evolution to it.

At the end of the day, all we’re saying and this has already been mentioned WAY BACK in Beta 1 by myself and others in the feedback forum is not adding offhand dagger was a missed opportunity and it would’ve been nice to have…..no surprise that all Anet is good for in pouring their resources into are the skins, outfits etc….

Edited December 11, 2021 by Tseison.4659

[Puck.3697]

16 minutes ago, Tseison.4659 said:

Okay we get it, and I think as a community we need to stop shutting others down when they have an opinion about changes and adding something new to a class. We’re all not naive and are fully aware that Anet doesn’t listen to any sort of creative ideas PERIOD, unless it happen to be their art contests.

Just because we say “oh they should’ve added offhand dagger and gave it X skills and also change the main hand to X skills” doesn’t automatically mean it’ll make dagger viable but a lot of us don’t want to be stuck equipping the SAME weapon sets, with the SAME shatters on a profession with the most nerfs and clearly with no sense of evolution to it.

At the end of the day, all we’re saying and this has already been mentioned WAY BACK in Beta 1 by myself and others in the feedback forum is not adding offhand dagger was a missed opportunity and it would’ve been nice to have…..no surprise that all Anet is good for in pouring their resources into are the skins, outfits etc….

Well no 1 weapon per elite has always been pretty standard. So I wouldn't go as far as to rip on Anet for it not happening. 

Warrior was a exception due to weapon master, they are able to wield all melee weapons in both main hand and offhand that's their thing, but no other proffession regardless of anything has been. 

To load ontop of that. The right reworks to bladesongs and main hand daggers is capable of solving the same issues you want offhand dagger to redeem. 

But yes 2 weapons would always be preferred regardless of state. This is something every forum says during every beta, because 2 new weapons will never be a negative and only always a positive. But you throw twice as. Many weapons away every expansion launch due to it being fixed to the elite and not core specc. 

Ontop of this, offhand dagger ain't gonna save those bladesongs. Mobility won't fix the fact that its bladesongs don't work in a PvP situation. If anything offhand dagger would be closer to a attempt at fixing PvE. 

Edited December 11, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Puck.3697]

15 hours ago, Tseison.4659 said:

And with “how close the EOD expansion is” I’d rather they delay it an extra month or two because everything seems pretty rushed and I already predict it getting pushed back a bit given the holidays and other events pertaining to the pandemic.

In all honesty I wouldn't. 

It's not rushed, the problem is like every expansion there's winners and losers concerning elites. 

Scrapper from HoT... 8 years and how many reworks later?. 

Tempest from HoT..... Elementalists went berserk when this got shown lol.

Berserker from HoT... We can remind ourselves of the sh*tstorm that came with this from release and how bad it was

 Chronomancer .... Gutted and left to be reworked. 

Deadeye from PoF.... Still a roleplay specc or a meme in unorganised pvp. 

Weaver from PoF..... Been screeched about for how long now? 

Spellbreaker from PoF - not uptoo par in PvP and a joke in raids / fractals. 

List kinda goes on realistically. If they delay the expansion everytime a few elites fall behind we will wait til 2023 realistically. It's not rushed the issue is the targetted playerbase for this game are roleplay level of gameplay. 

The game will flop if it doesn't launch something soon. People are bored there's no content and no traction to get people playing. 

Every expansion releases a few elites that later require getting reworked that's been elite speccs since the start. 

And no they won't delay further... Lol, 1) the game will run out of allocated budget. 

2) NCsoft forced wildstar to release remember. And that's who can come banging on anets door if they don't launch 

Only 2/9 elites for EoD are looking rough realistically (harbinger and virtuoso) with maybe catalyst and willbender looking primarily to be PvE only. 

That's not horrific and not the worst a expansions elites have released at really. 

Edited December 11, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

1 minute ago, Daddy.8125 said:

In all honesty I wouldn't. 

It's not rushed, the problem is like every expansion there's winners and losers concerning elites. 

Scrapper from HoT... 8 years and how many reworks later?. 

Tempest from HoT..... Elementalists went berserk when this got shown lol.

Berserker from HoT... We can remind ourselves of the sh*tstorm that came with this from release and how bad it was

 Chronomancer .... Gutted and left to be reworked. 

Deadeye from PoF.... Still a roleplay specc or a meme in unorganised pvp. 

Weaver from PoF..... Been screeched about for how long now? 

Spellbreaker from PoF - not uptoo par in PvP and a joke in raids / fractals. 

List kinda goes on realistically. If they delay the expansion everytime a few elites fall behind we will wait til 2023 realistically. It's not rushed the issue is the targetted playerbase for this game are roleplay level of gameplay. 

The game will flop if it doesn't launch something soon. People are bored there's no content and no traction to get people playing. 

Every expansion releases a few elites that later require getting reworked that's been elite speccs since the start. 

 

 

The problem is this xpac recks of low effort, not only the specs. 

What's the big thing on this xpac? 

HoT had vertical maps, elite specs, masteries

PoF had mounts and huge maps. 

EoD has... Fishing and boats? Everything they showed us so far is... Disappointing. 

[Sltrmhcaoou.2305]

On 12/11/2021 at 9:03 PM, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

The problem is this xpac recks of low effort, not only the specs. 

What's the big thing on this xpac? 

HoT had vertical maps, elite specs, masteries

PoF had mounts and huge maps. 

EoD has... Fishing and boats? Everything they showed us so far is... Disappointing. 

hey, I am looking forward to fishing, I bet its going to be more fun then wasted effort they called dragon response missions or strike missions

[zealex.9410]

Scepter has a block and sword has a leap with a return flip skill and a long ish evade.

 

Virtuoso doesnt need dagger offhand it needs to actually have mh dagger be changed to include utility and defensiveness, it only provided dmg and that was nerfed.

 

Im saying this because some ppl are like "yeah virt should get oh dagger it should have like criple and mobility and this and that", this  does nothing for mh dagger however which would still be a bad weapon.

Edited December 14, 2021 by zealex.9410

[Salt Mode.3780]

2 hours ago, zealex.9410 said:

Scepter has a block and sword has a leap with a return flip skill and a long ish evade.

 

Virtuoso doesnt need dagger offhand it needs to actually have mh dagger be changed to include utility and defensiveness, it only provided dmg and that was nerfed.

 

Im saying this because some ppl are like "yeah virt should get oh dagger it should have like criple and mobility and this and that", this  does nothing for mh dagger however which would still be a bad weapon.

If you are going to base those 2 weapon as a means to justify the ends then unfortunately that is a poor argument. 

Scepter is a pure condi weapon as the damage mods have been nerfed so aside it being a block which Virtuoso doesn't lack it offers nothing else.

As far as Sword goes, it is better as it gives evade and "mobility" which is extremely clunky to use because it wasn't intended to be used like that due to an absence of clone.

The argument for dagger is it is introduced with the mindset that there will be no clones unlike all other Mesmer weapons. Therefore the skillset that it offers is really disappointing. 

Shield Chrono = Blocks Boons CC Bunker

Axe Mirage = Damage, Detargetting which is something new and worked great with Mirage Cloak

Dagger Virtuoso = ???

Point is people are hoping for a dagger offhand because clearly dagger mainhand is completely garbage hoping that there will be more weapon combination with an offhand dagger. Needless to say it is a futile request due to the fact that expansion is coming out soon and not likely they will do something about it, like i mentioned before, Virtuoso was the first e-spec to be released and based on the "changes" it has received it is not likely we will get an offhand dagger.

[zealex.9410]

On 12/14/2021 at 6:47 AM, Salt Mode.3780 said:

If you are going to base those 2 weapon as a means to justify the ends then unfortunately that is a poor argument. 

Scepter is a pure condi weapon as the damage mods have been nerfed so aside it being a block which Virtuoso doesn't lack it offers nothing else.

As far as Sword goes, it is better as it gives evade and "mobility" which is extremely clunky to use because it wasn't intended to be used like that due to an absence of clone.

The argument for dagger is it is introduced with the mindset that there will be no clones unlike all other Mesmer weapons. Therefore the skillset that it offers is really disappointing. 

Shield Chrono = Blocks Boons CC Bunker

Axe Mirage = Damage, Detargetting which is something new and worked great with Mirage Cloak

Dagger Virtuoso = ???

Point is people are hoping for a dagger offhand because clearly dagger mainhand is completely garbage hoping that there will be more weapon combination with an offhand dagger. Needless to say it is a futile request due to the fact that expansion is coming out soon and not likely they will do something about it, like i mentioned before, Virtuoso was the first e-spec to be released and based on the "changes" it has received it is not likely we will get an offhand dagger.

Well i was compairing the other mh weapons to dagger in a vacuum to show that every other mh has 1 defensive, sometimes 2.

While dagger has none.

 

[Curunen.8729]

I just hope next expansion we get a 2 hander for once - would take anything at this point, rifle, hammer, bows...

Can just about see Anet's logic as core has 4 offhands to 2 mainhands, though following that same logic it doesn't make sense that Chrono got another offhand making that ratio worse.

Would certainly love to see an offhand dagger with virtuoso for some fresh options.

Edited December 31, 2021 by Curunen.8729
don't understand why forum is triple spacing everything

[mungozen.2379]

On 12/15/2021 at 3:59 AM, zealex.9410 said:

Well i was compairing the other mh weapons to dagger in a vacuum to show that every other mh has 1 defensive, sometimes 2.

While dagger has none.

 

I think comparing other Professions Dagger Skills to Virtuoso might be another, perhaps stronger argument.  Reason being is, we can always equip Sword or Scepter if we want those abilities.  However, when we compare Dagger skills...

Dagger - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

Warrior gets a Leap, Ranger gets a Leap, Thief gets a Leap, Ele gets 3/4 movement skills

Only Necro doesn't get a movement ability on the Dagger, however they do get an Immobilize skill

There are no defensive skills really, but there are a lot of Condi skills on other dagger users, providing daze, weakness, chill etc

This is why I question if weapon themes really matter.  It isn't just that Virtuoso is different from Mesmer, but that Virt Dagger is different from other daggers as well.

 

On another note, while I didn't enjoy Virt Dagger at all, Virt Scepter was very playable.  It annoys me to say it but Celestial Virt Scepter was more powerful than Cele Chrono Scepter.  You can spam and dump blades at a very high rate akin to the classic Chrono shatter builds, and take minimal damage, and do less work than Chrono.  Since you are already closer than 600 units, everything hits (more or less).  It didn't have quite the sustain of Chrono but Scepter Virt can solo Champ bounties for example, pretty easily.

If I do work with Virtuoso in EoD, I doubt it will be with a Dagger at all.  It is just a poor weapon in many places, and other weapons have proven to be better.

 

[piitb.7635]

It's most likely due to issues with another phantasm, which comes with the offhand weapon.

 

What role would an offhand dagger phantasm play that is not already occupied?  Maybe on that poisons and/or removes boons?

[Zenith.7301]

1 hour ago, piitb.7635 said:

It's most likely due to issues with another phantasm, which comes with the offhand weapon.

 

What role would an offhand dagger phantasm play that is not already occupied?  Maybe on that poisons and/or removes boons?

 

 

Phantasms don't just need to be utility skills. They can be nukes with side utility. Considering many of them have longer cd's than shatters, they should be hitting harder than a mindwrack.