Trailblazer - the joke needs to end

[GoldenPants.1870]

On 12/12/2021 at 4:50 PM, Dawdler.8521 said:

But as I've said before, I fully agree on one condition - all 4 stat gear is removed. Minstrels, marauders, the lot.

Marauders is needed to survive. What you’re wishing for here is even more bursty thieves/rangers.

 

Or more condi builds.

[ysnake.3619]

6 minutes ago, Mattmatt.4962 said:

Power scrapper is another issue ... and yet kinda the same issue: tankiness from maximum damage from the "damage to barrier" trait. Aka, you can build maximum damage and get ridiculous tankiness (you can play around by dodging keu abilities (except grenade but kits are a joke since they somehow have been forgotten during the feb2020 patch and retained all their damage LOL)).

You're basically saying it's rock paper scissor. Yeah i know the game worked this way since the release. Yet when you build specificly to hard counter condis and still get blatantly overpowered by mediocre gameplay, something is wrong.  Dont get me wrong, i'm getting pretty old and my skill is dropping, but not to a point where i cant realize when i've been outplayed.

 

And i dont expect to "beat everything", if some ministrel guardian want to bunker off a camp till reinforcment arrives, i know he will, but the cost he pays for that is to be unable to kill anything (anything with arms :x ) Again what is the cost paid by condi builds in the current state of WvW

 

Aye, things can be a bit "out of hand", especially with Condispam meta that is currently ongoing.

 

Just a brief point: getting older does not mean worse mechanics, quite frankly, your mechanics are the same or even better unless you are 50+ (even then, the mechanics do not deteriorate, just look at world-famous guitarists).

 

But back to the issue at hand, yes, there are many MANY things "broken" in the current "meta":

- Power Scrapper in WvW

- Cele Weaver (unkillable)

- Cele Herald (4 onswap sigil burst)

- Immortal Boonbeasts

- Condi spam Thieves with stealth

- Condi spam Mirage

- Cele Firebrand

 

Many many more things, and that's how we define the "meta". The broken outliers and points define how broken the meta is. To put it in perspective, let's take League of Legends for example. Let's say you are mid lane - you picked Lux (a squishy long-range mage), they got the counterpick and got to pick Zed into you (a melee assassin that can kill any squishy).

You lost the lane, Zed is 4-1-0 (he died getting that last kill on you), but all of a sudden - teamfights come and holy molly Lux is amazing because that Sion is tanking them all and you're just pew-pewing your stuff from the back while their Zed has no way to kill you as you completed your Zhonya's Hourglass and your Thresh is on keeping an eye on that pesky Zed.

 

What that means is that even though Trailblazer can be good for one thing (duels, small skirmishes), they are simply horrendous in Zergs. They are non-existant in sPvP due to how the mode works. Is the answer then "well if you can't counter Trailblazer, play blobs" - no, no it is not. It is just on the side of accepting that certain builds can deal with your build with EASE, just like that Zed dealt with your Lux with ease (inb4 "omg Lux is a counter to Zed, he can never get level 6 when I play Lux, I have 4 items completed before Zed can even buy a healing potion" yea yea, we're talking similar level here), but as soon as you got a small group going and your buddy Jimmy over there is all about them cleanses and gets his hardon off of that, you collect your free participation by rolling over these Trailblazer builds.

 

My best advice is to learn to appreciate the annoyance that such things Trailblazer, Cele Weaver, Mirages, that annoying Druid immortal build, are and you will then learn to appreciate the game as is.

 

sPvP is a COMPLETELY different beast (as it is meant to be a balanced game mode, but well, Necromancers exist) - but we are talking about WvW here, a game mode that you must accept as is to have fun. Yes, offering some amazing and well-thought feedback is surely appreciated (especially if one of the devs or product managers decides to venture here for some reason) - but just going in guns blazing demanding this or that - you know, just as me, that that tactic simply does not yield anything.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

3 hours ago, ysnake.3619 said:

 

Aye, things can be a bit "out of hand", especially with Condispam meta that is currently ongoing.

 

Just a brief point: getting older does not mean worse mechanics, quite frankly, your mechanics are the same or even better unless you are 50+ (even then, the mechanics do not deteriorate, just look at world-famous guitarists).

 

But back to the issue at hand, yes, there are many MANY things "broken" in the current "meta":

- Power Scrapper in WvW

- Cele Weaver (unkillable)

- Cele Herald (4 onswap sigil burst)

- Immortal Boonbeasts

- Condi spam Thieves with stealth

- Condi spam Mirage

- Cele Firebrand

 

Many many more things, and that's how we define the "meta". The broken outliers and points define how broken the meta is. To put it in perspective, let's take League of Legends for example. Let's say you are mid lane - you picked Lux (a squishy long-range mage), they got the counterpick and got to pick Zed into you (a melee assassin that can kill any squishy).

You lost the lane, Zed is 4-1-0 (he died getting that last kill on you), but all of a sudden - teamfights come and holy molly Lux is amazing because that Sion is tanking them all and you're just pew-pewing your stuff from the back while their Zed has no way to kill you as you completed your Zhonya's Hourglass and your Thresh is on keeping an eye on that pesky Zed.

 

What that means is that even though Trailblazer can be good for one thing (duels, small skirmishes), they are simply horrendous in Zergs. They are non-existant in sPvP due to how the mode works. Is the answer then "well if you can't counter Trailblazer, play blobs" - no, no it is not. It is just on the side of accepting that certain builds can deal with your build with EASE, just like that Zed dealt with your Lux with ease (inb4 "omg Lux is a counter to Zed, he can never get level 6 when I play Lux, I have 4 items completed before Zed can even buy a healing potion" yea yea, we're talking similar level here), but as soon as you got a small group going and your buddy Jimmy over there is all about them cleanses and gets his hardon off of that, you collect your free participation by rolling over these Trailblazer builds.

 

My best advice is to learn to appreciate the annoyance that such things Trailblazer, Cele Weaver, Mirages, that annoying Druid immortal build, are and you will then learn to appreciate the game as is.

 

sPvP is a COMPLETELY different beast (as it is meant to be a balanced game mode, but well, Necromancers exist) - but we are talking about WvW here, a game mode that you must accept as is to have fun. Yes, offering some amazing and well-thought feedback is surely appreciated (especially if one of the devs or product managers decides to venture here for some reason) - but just going in guns blazing demanding this or that - you know, just as me, that that tactic simply does not yield anything.

It's all fun and games until Tim is full condi nuke (like unnerfed condi Rev) and his friend Jimmy is some uber broken support like pocket Firebrand, so you and your friend support Timmy will still sniff flowers from undeground in that encounter. :')

[Shiyo.3578]

7 hours ago, ysnake.3619 said:

Tanky stats DO belong in WvW.

They really don't. The amount of builds you simply walk away from and CANNOT INTERACT WITH is astonishing. I have never, in 20+ years of gaming, played a PvP game where there's even a SINGLE non-interactive build. This game has dozens. That's not good, and the developers need to wake up.

[ysnake.3619]

4 hours ago, Shiyo.3578 said:

They really don't. The amount of builds you simply walk away from and CANNOT INTERACT WITH is astonishing. I have never, in 20+ years of gaming, played a PvP game where there's even a SINGLE non-interactive build. This game has dozens. That's not good, and the developers need to wake up.

Must have not been very good games then, let's see:

- pre-Dragonfang nerf Infiltrators (Dark Age of Camelot) - practically outduelled all classes as they were a stealther

- launch Savages (Dark Age of Camelot) - could simply two shot you (unheard of in a 1v1 in that game, unless a stealther)

- Zephyr meta (10sec unavoidable/unPurgeable CC - Dark Age of Camelot)

- an entire armada of WoW classes (Blood Death Knight with tank season, Retribution Paladin 9.0 1shot, stack Warrior, Stampede Hunter, Shadowlands 9.0 Rogue, Rogue without trinket in almost every season etc etc)

- Rain of Fire/whatever other spell was called stack on keep defense (Warhammer Online)

 

To actual "PvP" games:

- pre-rez Nerf Mercy

- tank meta in LoL (Sunfire stacking)

- AP Master Yi (LoL)

- god, so many metas to choose from, the biggest offender is Ardent meta for sure

- GOATS meta (Overwatch)

- currently still ongoing: Jett (Valorant)

- Brood Lord/Infestor/Corruptor Wings of Liberty (SC2)

- currently ongoing: Skytoss in PvZ (SC2)

 

Gosh, too tired to even think about this.

 

My point is that damage is not king in this game, note everyone should be running around with 12k hp seeing who can land the first X skill and simply win out on that - tankiness, tanky stats, innate tankiness should exist and it brings flavor to this game, as it is a very deep game.

 

But claiming such ridiculous things you claim "facts" is just utterly despicable. Hell, I'll even break down each one of these that I wrote off the top of my head just so you can see how ridiculous these things were.

[Zephyrus.9680]

I literally don't care about troll roaming builds like this. What are they even doing? Just have a heavy condi cleanse template ready to deal with them and worst case it's a stalemate till someone else shows up. 

[DeceiverX.8361]

On 12/12/2021 at 3:42 PM, Dagger.2035 said:

I don’t see it as a problem.  If a solo roamer has Trailblazer stats you can just walk away since they can’t burst.  If it is a comped group don’t fight them head on since they have more sustain.  Just range, kite, and cloud them.  Or just keep them busy and don’t commit until you get numbers.

Depends on the class/build.

My TB ranger starts out-damaging my marauder thief after just 3 seconds in combat and is comparable to pretty much everything except Daredevil in landspeed.  Once I hit the first AA it's over unless you turn and kill it.

It's actually stupid how broken it is on the right builds.  I have like 150 hours on my condi ranger and it WILDLY out-performs my thief and reaper in literally every scenario and I'm not even good at pet swap lol.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Shiyo.3578, to be fair it is not the tanky stats that are the issue, its the crappy Feb2020 balance that is the issue. Specifically the removal of damage from hard CCs. Bring CC damage back and your complaints would go away.

[Dagger.2035]

1 hour ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

Depends on the class/build.

My TB ranger starts out-damaging my marauder thief after just 3 seconds in combat and is comparable to pretty much everything except Daredevil in landspeed.  Once I hit the first AA it's over unless you turn and kill it.

It's actually stupid how broken it is on the right builds.  I have like 150 hours on my condi ranger and it WILDLY out-performs my thief and reaper in literally every scenario and I'm not even good at pet swap lol.

That’s true but the warclaw allows you to pick and choose your fights.  You can inspect each other’s stacks and food before engaging.  This is especially true if you have a low mobility build or are queued on a zerg build.  Heck if you hate condition builds just have a build template ready to counter them.  
 

I think the problem with these threads is that most people expect their one build to beat everything and get upset when that isn’t the case.  If people were willing to experiment and try other builds they would realize there’s pros and cons to everything.

[Mattmatt.4962]

5 hours ago, Dagger.2035 said:

That’s true but the warclaw allows you to pick and choose your fights.  You can inspect each other’s stacks and food before engaging.  This is especially true if you have a low mobility build or are queued on a zerg build.  Heck if you hate condition builds just have a build template ready to counter them.  
 

I think the problem with these threads is that most people expect their one build to beat everything and get upset when that isn’t the case.  If people were willing to experiment and try other builds they would realize there’s pros and cons to everything.

I guess i should update opening message with the build im running (i tell it in another post):

-62% all condi duration

-98% cripple chill immob

Antitoxine rune+ cleansing sigil

Now tell me im running some build that deserve to loose to condi.

 

And you comment on waeclaw is just another way of saying "JuSt RuN aWaY BrO". Build that cant be interacted with (unless unable to kill you in the case of super tank ministrel ones) should not exist. Period

Edited December 16, 2021 by Mattmatt.4962

[Zyreva.1078]

10 hours ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

Depends on the class/build.

My TB ranger starts out-damaging my marauder thief after just 3 seconds in combat and is comparable to pretty much everything except Daredevil in landspeed.  Once I hit the first AA it's over unless you turn and kill it.

It's actually stupid how broken it is on the right builds.  I have like 150 hours on my condi ranger and it WILDLY out-performs my thief and reaper in literally every scenario and I'm not even good at pet swap lol.

Luckily thief does not have to fight for much longer than 3s before going back into stealth.

Also are you talking about core ranger (because you mention pet swap)? I mean, condi (or even better - cele) slb is pretty strong for solo and small scale gameplay and druid a super annoying one trick immob pony, but core ranger certainly isn't great and won't outperform thief or reaper in many, let alone every scenario.

3 hours ago, Mattmatt.4962 said:

Now tell me im running some build that deserve to loose to condi.

Do you deserve to auto win? Just because of your build?

Btw, the best way to counter condi builds isn't to stack as much cleanse and condi duration reduction and become on of those "uninteractive" builds you are complaning about in the same post. Because you just lose out too much on offense and therefore counter pressure and kill potential. You just need "enough" cleanses and depending on builds and player skill, "enough" isn't always that much actually.

Besides lacking offense, the biggest problems vs condis tends to be that players don't know what to avoid and when to cleanse. And if you factetank too much and waste your defensive cds - you probably deserve to die, regardless of build. Doesn't mean, there isn't some op stuff out there, but the whole condi = op narrative is as old as it is inaccurate.

Edited December 16, 2021 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Mattmatt.4962]

Never said condi is OP, i said TB is; which is just a blatant fact in a game where condi can deal the same damage as power while requiring 1-2 stats instead of 3 for power.

I wish condi was how its meant to be: debilitating and not a damage type but its not, so it needs be balanced as a damage type, thus the ratio damage/tanking need to be adressed. That could be done through mechanics, i can ear that, but imo its more of a number issue.

[Telgum.6071]

On 12/13/2021 at 4:05 AM, Chichimec.9364 said:

lol - When I solo roam, I use a condi renegade with a full kit of trailblazer gear. With that, I can comfortably take down sentries, supply camps, and shrines. When I run into enemy players with that build, 95 times out of a hundred I end up dying in a Tier 1 or Tier 2 match up. I really am that old and slow.  On Tier 3 or 4 matches though, I only die about 50% of the time. So the trailblazer gear is not some kind of invulnerable tank. It would be nice if that gear made me unkillable but I suspect that the combat outcome actually comes down to the skill of the respective players, as it should.

 

Vastly different from my experience after playing Revenant on all its form (power herald, power renegade, trailblazer herald, trailblazer renegade and celestial renegade). The trailblazer and celestial gear just makes your gameplay easier, specially when you are followed by some sort of defensive abilities (i.e. Jalis), you are not invulnerable to damage, but the gameplay is extremely easier because you can simply focus on stacking conditions and playing safely. Back when I played renegade I just focused on spamming shortbow, then just 1 1 1 1 1 + all kind of surviving skills and the enemy eventually went down or ran away, normally only warriors and condi elementalists could put enough pressure to completly reverse the fight.

No, it doesn't comes down to the skill of the players. Power herald does it, but the rest of the builds simply carry the player through condition spam and tank stats. That is the problem, not conditions, but condition spam AND tank stats put together. And yet some people here dare to compare Trailblazer with Marauder, lol.

And the problem goes on, I had the privilege of fighting against Trailblazer Vindicator and Harbinger, you can safely guess that the story is the same as always: condition spam and full focus on survive while the enemy dies because, unless you are an ele, a SA thief or MAYBE a warrior, condition cleanse doesn't even come close to condition spam.

Edited December 16, 2021 by Telgum.6071

[XECOR.2814]

You are hiding behind the fact that people complain about trailblazer. From all the comments i saw earlier it does seem that there must be something wrong with your gameplay.

 

Antitoxin scales extremely with any kind of condi removes. I cant come up with any build that pumps enough condi to out do anti-toxin runes.

I have very big doubt that in this scenario it might be op's gameplay problem. 

Im guessing from your post history that you are ele player . Play tempest well and see for yourself.

[ASP.8093]

On 12/14/2021 at 2:54 AM, Shiyo.3578 said:

So by your logic, they removed tanky stat combinations from SPvP because of bad players who don't know how to cleanse, and don't balance the game around high end players?

Well....

In fairness, cleansing has also been horribly nerfed in SPvP.

I mean, just compare:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sigil_of_Cleansing

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sigil_of_Cleansing_(PvP)

 

One of the quirks of WvW is that skills/traits/mechanics have mostly been nerfed to the same extent as they have in SPvP (with a few exceptions like Grenade Barrage damage, Portal durations, Revealed time after stealthing) but gear is exactly the same as PvE. So once reason we have these gripe threads is that your gear stats, runes, sigils, and (sometimes) food are often very very powerful compared to the bonuses you get from trait lines. I very much think the solution should be to tune up skills/traits a little rather than trying to make WvW the same kind of slog as SPvP, though.

[Zyreva.1078]

2 hours ago, Mattmatt.4962 said:

Never said condi is OP, i said TB is; which is just a blatant fact in a game where condi can deal the same damage as power while requiring 1-2 stats instead of 3 for power.

I wish condi was how its meant to be: debilitating and not a damage type but its not, so it needs be balanced as a damage type, thus the ratio damage/tanking need to be adressed. That could be done through mechanics, i can ear that, but imo its more of a number issue.

You might have never said, condi is op, but you are implicating it.

I think you are overestimating TB regarding both effectiveness as well as commonness. Cele and even zerk/mara are better (as well as very common) for small scale in many cases, and large scale is still all about zerk/mara and minstrel.

It is not really true that condi builds require less stat investment. There is a reason why stuff like viper/grieving was never able to compete with zerk in WvW. Defensive stats aren't really optional for condi builds in order to be viable nor do stats alone make builds overly tanky, as traits and skills play a huge role too. And power builds also don't always need a whole lot of precision and/or ferocity from gear in order to to kill.

A blanket "X deals the same (or more) dmg than Y" also does not make much sense, considering dmg dealt is highly situational and varies greatly depending on the situation. We aren't hitting golems here.

Also if condis weren't supposed to kill players, they wouldn't. Having multiple types of dmg that require different means of defense is a good thing and helps to keep unkillable builds in check.

Now, are there builds that have too much survivability and dmg at once? Absolutely, but that's not a condi (TB) issue. It includes all sorts of builds, with cele (which can be mistaken as pure condi) probably being the worst offender, but it also applies to some  power builds.

1 hour ago, Telgum.6071 said:

[...]condition cleanse doesn't even come close to condition spam.

Healing doesn't even come close to dmg spam, stun breaks don't even come close to cc spam, ...

Defense isn't supposed to surpass offense. Players should die.

[Zyreva.1078]

10 minutes ago, ASP.8093 said:

One of the quirks of WvW is that skills/traits/mechanics have mostly been nerfed to the same extent as they have in SPvP (with a few exceptions like Grenade Barrage damage, Portal durations, Revealed time after stealthing) but gear is exactly the same as PvE. So once reason we have these gripe threads is that your gear stats, runes, sigils, and (sometimes) food are often very very powerful compared to the bonuses you get from trait lines. I very much think the solution should be to tune up skills/traits a little rather than trying to make WvW the same kind of slog as SPvP, though.

For the most part skills, traits and mechanics scale with increased stats, so they are already stronger in WvW than in PvP, even if the numbers might be the same. Adding more powercreep does not fix anything.

[GoldenPants.1870]

16 hours ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

I have like 150 hours on my condi ranger and it WILDLY out-performs my thief and reaper in literally every scenario and I'm not even good at pet swap lol.

What is this build ?

[Shiyo.3578]

On 12/14/2021 at 7:02 AM, GoldenPants.1870 said:

Marauders is needed to survive. What you’re wishing for here is even more bursty thieves/rangers.

 

Or more condi builds.

Marauders only really helps vs condis. Any 1 shot build will still 1 shot you regardless  if you're 11k or 15k hp.

Edited December 16, 2021 by Shiyo.3578

[solemn.9608]

Not the most eloquent way to put it... But spot on! And anyone who says otherwise is a condi main hiding behind ye olde "just cleanse!" fallacy.

 

There aren't enough kitten cleanses in the game to survive for 20 seconds vs a competent/top 100 pvp condi mirage in WvW unless you run antitoxin rune. It's not balanced. Pls just take the red pill condi mains 

Edited December 16, 2021 by solemn.9608

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 hours ago, Shiyo.3578 said:

Marauders only really helps vs condis. Any 1 shot build will still 1 shot you regardless  if you're 11k or 15k hp.

*Poker face in warrior*

[GoldenPants.1870]

10 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

*Poker face in warrior*

yall got like base 18k health, free marauders.

[Telgum.6071]

6 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Healing doesn't even come close to dmg spam

Not entirely true, there is an amount of skills that you can use to deal massive damage that can be countered with certain skills, two obvious examples are Defiant Stance and Infuse Light. Those skills will absorb all the burst and guess what, the burst goes on CD. Conditions remain and will be reapplied over and over and over.

6 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

stun breaks don't even come close to cc spam

Not true, Elementalist ignores CC, Ranger ignores CC, Warrior can ignore CC. I'm not really sure why did you wrote this when for many classes there is more antiCC uptime than CC uptime. And this is not even counting stability.

I can't but laugh when people compares power effects with conditions effects.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

5 minutes ago, GoldenPants.1870 said:

yall got like base 18k health, free marauders.

Nobody tell Shiyo about Great Fortitude. Or about runes of vampirism for that matter...

[GoldenPants.1870]

1 minute ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Nobody tell Shiyo about Great Fortitude. Or about runes of vampirism for that matter...

How much would that even be ? like.. 25k ? or something