It's time to un-paper turrets in PvE

[Ariurotl.3718]

Once upon a time, ANet wanted to keep all skills exactly the same in all game modes and tried to balance accordingly. One of those balancing decisions was a nerf to turrets' survivability across the board just because they were too sturdy for WvW and/or PvP, I honestly don't remember which cause I barely ever set foot in those modes. It's safe to say that the paradigm has well and truly shifted and now barely any skills are the same across all modes. So can we (the PvE players) have our turrets that aren't made of cardboard back?

Edited December 12, 2021 by Ariurotl.3718

[Linken.6345]

Nah they probabely dont want to empower the bots even more mate.

[Seon.8402]

I don't know the history them in PvP and I do think Linken brings up a good point, but I would like to see some improvements. I have never really used turrets in any build I've ever messed around with, but playing Symmetra/Torbjorn in Overwatch makes me really wish I could; doing a bit of pre-planning and building could be another small layer of strategy for each fight. I realize that GW2 combat situations are usually more mobile though, which kinda also limits their effectiveness.

[Khisanth.2948]

2 hours ago, Seon.8402 said:

I don't know the history them in PvP and I do think Linken brings up a good point, but I would like to see some improvements. I have never really used turrets in any build I've ever messed around with, but playing Symmetra/Torbjorn in Overwatch makes me really wish I could; doing a bit of pre-planning and building could be another small layer of strategy for each fight. I realize that GW2 combat situations are usually more mobile though, which kinda also limits their effectiveness.

GW2 combat is usually more mobile? O_o

In what content?

[zait.5042]

5 hours ago, Khisanth.2948 said:

GW2 combat is usually more mobile? O_o

In what content?

When you're doing casual events and stuff, an escort or whatever, you need to fight and keep moving. So putting the turrets, then taking them down, then setting them down again feels kinda bad.

I imagine that in fractals, raids and stuff this is not an issue but I wouldn't know lol

[Naxos.2503]

14 hours ago, Linken.6345 said:

Nah they probabely dont want to empower the bots even more mate.

If that's the only concern, I'd just like to have my Activate Turret Ability button back, rather than detonate. Instead there could be a dedicated toolbelt button for "Detonate All Turrets". Turrets are not just weak, they're not reliable, you place them, they use their skill once (if they survive that long) and then they sit there. Like elixirs, they're not fun or interesting, but atleast Elixirs are functional.

[kharmin.7683]

7 minutes ago, zait.5042 said:

When you're doing casual events and stuff, an escort or whatever, you need to fight and keep moving. So putting the turrets, then taking them down, then setting them down again feels kinda bad.

I imagine that in fractals, raids and stuff this is not an issue but I wouldn't know lol

Yeah, for me, it was a lot more fun to be able to toss turrets.  I miss those days.

[Reborn.1738]

4 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Yeah, for me, it was a lot more fun to be able to toss turrets.  I miss those days.

 

Back when I played at launch this was my go to

 

Hotbar full of turret skills, lob them all at a group of mobs, maybe even the Elite turret drop too. Didn't care if it wasn't a meta build or my DPS (probably) sucked. It was fun as hell!

 

Whatever happened to the turret throwing ability anyway?

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

15 minutes ago, Naxos.2503 said:

If that's the only concern, I'd just like to have my Activate Turret Ability button back, rather than detonate. Instead there could be a dedicated toolbelt button for "Detonate All Turrets". Turrets are not just weak, they're not reliable, you place them, they use their skill once (if they survive that long) and then they sit there. Like elixirs, they're not fun or interesting, but atleast Elixirs are functional.

This was changed to make turrets easier to control for new players. Auto overload, one less button per turret to worry about. In theory a nice idea, but whoever had it, never used turrets themselves. Especially the flame turret was rendered useless by this. In addition they removed a strategic element from the class with this. Before that patch, it was a thing to deploy turrets and overcharge them at the right time - to counter certain attacks, nullify damage or prepare special combos.

But I agree with @Linken.6345 here. I fear the mech AI will not be optimized past a certain level for the same reason. The Lake Doric incident and the situation in Southsun Cove are already prove enough that this is no longer a mere trash-mob situation. These groups can farm high tier NPCs with just their pets. Imagine what proper turrets or a fully functional super-powered mech would be capable of. Let alone a small group of players with those. 2-3 Heralds nearby for optimized boon distribution and you should be able to kill champions or even tougher bosses.

Don't get me wrong, I want functional turrets as every other engineer. But from my perspective they do not want to bother with the pet-farming situation anytime soon. And so there is very little hope :S

[Naxos.2503]

2 minutes ago, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

 

But I agree with @Linken.6345 here. I fear the mech AI will not be optimized past a certain level for the same reason. The Lake Doric incident and the situation in Southsun Cove are already prove enough that this is no longer a mere trash-mob situation. These groups can farm high tier NPCs with just their pets. Imagine what proper turrets or a fully functional super-powered mech would be capable of. Let alone a small group of players with those. 2-3 Heralds nearby for optimized boon distribution and you should be able to kill champions or even tougher bosses.

Don't get me wrong, I want functional turrets as every other engineer. But from my perspective they do not want to bother with the pet-farming situation anytime soon. And so there is very little hope :S

Bots ruin everything as usual :<

[Khisanth.2948]

3 hours ago, zait.5042 said:

When you're doing casual events and stuff, an escort or whatever, you need to fight and keep moving. So putting the turrets, then taking them down, then setting them down again feels kinda bad.

I imagine that in fractals, raids and stuff this is not an issue but I wouldn't know lol

Escort events are relatively rare compared to the rest but even for those you aren't mobile fights since the mobs just spawn at fixed locations along the route and if you pickedup/destroyed them after each group by the time you get to the next one the turrets should be recharged.

[Bollocks.4078]

19 hours ago, Linken.6345 said:

Nah they probabely dont want to empower the bots even more mate.

 

Then why are necro minions so durable and long lasting?

[Tungsten Monarch.6058]

21 hours ago, Linken.6345 said:

Nah they probabely dont want to empower the bots even more mate.

and yet the minions of a Necromancer have absurd health, plus they move with the necromancer. Honestly they should restore the turret's to what they were years ago. Sturdy, damaging, and can be placed at range.

[Vilin.8056]

34 minutes ago, Tungsten Monarch.6058 said:

and yet the minions of a Necromancer have absurd health, plus they move with the necromancer. Honestly they should restore the turret's to what they were years ago. Sturdy, damaging, and can be placed at range.

Which also made necro the no.1 option for afk farming, which is another widespread problem that needs fixing.

Turret possess far better response time and attack range than necro minions that does not react until actively attack or attacked. Boosting turret's automation attack damage will only further the exploit.

Engi turrets were never sturdy and damaging in the past, in fact they were less damaging to begin with until Anet boosted their relative belt skills in recent years.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Vilin.8056

[Tungsten Monarch.6058]

2 hours ago, Vilin.8056 said:

Which also made necro the no.1 option for afk farming, which is another widespread problem that needs fixing.

Turret possess far better response time and attack range than necro minions that does not react until actively attack or attacked. Boosting turret's automation attack damage will only further the exploit.

Engi turrets were never sturdy and damaging in the past, in fact they were less damaging to begin with until Anet boosted their relative belt skills in recent years.

Irrelevant argument. People doing things against the EULA is not an argument to nerf an entire skill line.

[zait.5042]

15 hours ago, Khisanth.2948 said:

Escort events are relatively rare compared to the rest but even for those you aren't mobile fights since the mobs just spawn at fixed locations along the route and if you pickedup/destroyed them after each group by the time you get to the next one the turrets should be recharged.

 

Yeah you have the time to do that, but (to me at least) setting them up again feels kinda bad. Like someone else mentioned, when you could toss them it had more of a strategic feel to it.
But you know, that's just me. If it feels fine when you use turrets, then I see why that would be a silly point.

[Vilin.8056]

12 hours ago, Tungsten Monarch.6058 said:

Irrelevant argument. People doing things against the EULA is not an argument to nerf an entire skill line.

Quite the opposite, being applied as an common exploit is exactly why it is changed. The nerf only applies for lazy farming/attacking.

Otherwise these skills are moderately boosted for active players, which makes the whole durability argument irrelevant.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Vilin.8056

[Tungsten Monarch.6058]

5 hours ago, Vilin.8056 said:

Quite the opposite, being applied as an common exploit is exactly why it is changed. The nerf only applies for lazy farming/attacking.

Otherwise these skills are moderately boosted for active players, which makes the whole durability argument irrelevant.

that does not work in the real world either, someone using a car to run someone over does not impute all cars of running people over. Your logic and reason is lacking. Someone doing something against the EULA does not impute all people using Turrets.

[Ashen.2907]

On 12/13/2021 at 4:14 AM, kharmin.7683 said:

Yeah, for me, it was a lot more fun to be able to toss turrets.  I miss those days.

I miss being able to throw my traps on a Ranger as well.

[Vilin.8056]

5 hours ago, Tungsten Monarch.6058 said:

that does not work in the real world either, someone using a car to run someone over does not impute all cars of running people over. Your logic and reason is lacking. Someone doing something against the EULA does not impute all people using Turrets.

You're comparing apple and oranges. As said, these skills aren't nerfed but rather have their damage boosted unless you're simply camping behind automated attacks.

The whole argument exist simply because you lack the understanding of the class and the skillset, nothing more.

[Super Hayes.6890]

Pretty sure the first question that should be asked of every skill before implementing it should be "Is this fun?" Some skills like turrets have moved away from that ideal.

[Naxos.2503]

12 hours ago, Vilin.8056 said:

You're comparing apple and oranges. As said, these skills aren't nerfed but rather have their damage boosted unless you're simply camping behind automated attacks.

The whole argument exist simply because you lack the understanding of the class and the skillset, nothing more.

I think to simplify their position : The skills being nerfed for every engineers because it was used for farming felt as a form of unwarranted punishment to all engineers who Did not farm, and they're quite many. In that sense I wholeheartedly agree with them. The skills were nerfed when it comes to their activation and resistance to strikes. They're completely irrelevant in any fight against other players, because they can be downed in 2 or sometime 1 hit, which can be done accidentally with cleaving. It's a pretty skewed handicap in a place where farming isn't even relevant.

I can also easily say that the necessity of such nerf seems unwaranted when necromancers can do the exact same thing with impunity, making it a very skewed nerf for the same reason. People will say that you have to stay active for the necro farming, but the fact is, most people do it with a macro using the same skill over and over, which makes it automated farming, exactly the same thing turrets have been nerfed for.

Lastly if turrets are beyond saving, then I'd like them to be replaced by something else that is atleast functional : Engineers essentially have 5 skills that are barely picked across the board because of that nerf, making them dead weight. If they dont want engineers to use turrets, they could give us something else atleast.

Edited December 15, 2021 by Naxos.2503

[Reborn.1738]

Ok, hear me out...

LEGS.

Robot spider legs trait for turrets. Make them mobile to counter their paper thin-ness!

[Naxos.2503]

12 minutes ago, Reborn.1738 said:

Ok, hear me out...

LEGS.

Robot spider legs trait for turrets. Make them mobile to counter their paper thin-ness!

Believe it or not, I entertained the thought a couple of years back... It would probably be possible too, but it might not add much to them.

I think their special skill Should be player activated, and have the possibility to be activated several times, like the necro's minions can.

I'm not positive about the requirement for movement, but it would definitely solve the issue : the main problem turrets have compared to every other instance of summons is that they're Objects, not Mobs, and different rules apply to them which makes them unreliable (they take unmitigated damage and do not inherit any form of stats from the summoner). Making them mobile would turn them into mobs, which, would open the possibility of making them a little tougher.

A quick comparison from the wiki : Minion - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) Take note of the Minion Attribute section, you'll clearly see they have both health, and armor there, as befits an entity in the game, they all have atleast health and armor.

Now we check on the turrets : Turret - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) We can see that they have roughly the same amount of health if slightly less in some cases, but they do not have Any armor. Furthermore, any projectile will pierce through them, making them easy to cleave at range and in melee. That situation is due to their status as object, and the main reason they go down so quickly.

Edited December 15, 2021 by Naxos.2503

[Reborn.1738]

I wasn't even thinking about the armour numbers or anything like that, but your points make sense.

I was just thinking that having to redeploy the turrets in each combat scenario was a pain unlike as a Necro and the minions just being there following you.

I suppose it would make Turret Engi quite similar to a Minion Master Necro, so it would require something to make it different though.

Now that I think about it, didn't Gyros used to be mobile summons? hmm...