Nerf Mortar and Grenade Kit.

[Skoll.8650]

Not in the way you think, but make it so you can only use them in the direction you're facing. 👈

Edited December 24, 2021 by Skoll.8650

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

1 hour ago, Skoll.8650 said:

Not in the way you think, but make it so you can only use them in the direction you're facing. 👈

I also order some juicy damage nerfs for both mortar and grenades in WvW on top of your proposal.

[Skoll.8650]

2 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

I also order some juicy damage nerfs for both mortar and grenades in WvW on top of your proposal.

Something is incredibly wrong when you can superspeed off and spam 3k-4k damage projectiles behind you in WvW 😃

[Kuma.1503]

Mortar's fine.  The projectiles fly at a snail's pace. If you're you're consistently getting hit by those you're probably afk. 

If they do make mortars fire in front only. My only request is that they give us a Mortar that sits on our shoulder. Like the ones in Forging Steel. 

It looks cool, and it'll make sense why they can't be fired backwards. Ideally I'd love to see a rework to mortar shells in general. Add a blast finisher in there,  like a a heavy shell that  blasts and knocks back (A gap creator to help the engi maintain their range), a chemical field that inflicts poison and confusion and gives allies regen, ect. Something to give it a tad more gameplay, but that's wishful thinking at this point. (We're still waiting 8 years for them to replace the "placeholder" model they gave it. 

For nades... The ideal world for me is that they keep the fire behind mechanic, but they make grenades a delayed explosive. 

Turn Bomb kit into instant PBAOE damage, and make grenades a timed explosive... Like an actual grenade. If you want to get real fancy you could make them explode instantly in a fire field. Give them some gameplay with bomb kit. 

 

That'll put more effort on the engineer to lead their targets with their grenades because they won't explode right away. They can buff the explosion radius  to compensate (240-300 radius maximum) so they're not entirely useless against moving targets. 

Edited December 24, 2021 by Kuma.1503

[Dantheman.3589]

2 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Mortar's fine.  The projectiles fly at a snail's pace. If you're you're consistently getting hit by those you're probably afk. 

If they do make mortars fire in front only. My only request is that they give us a Mortar that sits on our shoulder. Like the ones in Forging Steel. 

It looks cool, and it'll make sense why they can't be fired backwards. Ideally I'd love to see a rework to mortar shells in general. Add a blast finisher in there,  like a a heavy shell that  blasts and knocks back (A gap creator to help the engi maintain their range), a chemical field that inflicts poison and confusion and gives allies regen, ect. Something to give it a tad more gameplay, but that's wishful thinking at this point. (We're still waiting 8 years for them to replace the "placeholder" model they gave it. 

For nades... The ideal world for me is that they keep the fire behind mechanic, but they make grenades a delayed explosive. 

Turn Bomb kit into instant PBAOE damage, and make grenades a timed explosive... Like an actual grenade. If you want to get real fancy you could make them explode instantly in a fire field. Give them some gameplay with bomb kit. 

 

That'll put more effort on the engineer to lead their targets with their grenades because they won't explode right away. They can buff the explosion radius  to compensate (240-300 radius maximum) so they're not entirely useless against moving targets. 

Mortar kit on quickness scrapper is secret tech.

stack 15 secs quickness with high projectile denial and just run in circles with mortar.

really really strong stuff, it’s just kindof sensative to burst by 2 shiro revs at a time which everyone playing

[Shao.7236]

Truly needs to be addressed for Thief as well. Shooting at something while moving away shouldn't be a thing, there's a reason why movement is designed the way it is and there's a clear discrepancy in the professions that are currently really good which contributes to that.

[Mik.3401]

I agree. This feels really like an exploit and enables crazy strong offense without much sacrifice.
 

 

[Kuma.1503]

Despite core power engi being one of the weakest builds you can play in PvP at the moment, It sure gets complained about a lot. 

Took kit autos too strong. Grenades too strong. Mortar too strong. Supply Crate too strong. Explosive entrance too strong. CMC even considered nerfing Elixir Gun back when Prot holo was overperforing. 

You people do realize the core class will have to be nerfed into unplayability before Holo stops being an issue right? 

So long as any of the things I mentioned is remotely usable in PvP, Holo is going to abuse it and make it look broken because it has:

• A built in damage kit 
• Built in Might gen
• Built in sustain
• High vulnerability output
• Built in mobility
• Built in counterplay against reflects 
• Built in cleanse
• Built in finishers (lets them get more value out of mortar fields)
• Built in damage modifiers (this carries grenade barrage after the nerfs)

Scrapper isn't even overperforing with these skills at this point. Nade/Mortar Scrapper is good. It's fun to play, but It's far from the best roamer, teafighter, or 1v1er. 

And core using these skills is only good functional in teamfights, and that's only if the enemy doesn't bring a tempest or guard with reflects. The only viable weapon core can run with these skills is rifle which also gets cockblocked by reflects. 

Lets stop nerfing underpowered builds. 

We tried nerfing core the last dozen or so times, and Holo did not die. How about we nerf holo this time. Hit the actual problem directly. 

Pending a rework (which is overdue for kits anyway) Core skills should be left alone. 

Edited December 25, 2021 by Kuma.1503

[Kuma.1503]

8 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Alright, but what does it have to do with grenade and mortar kit in this discussion though?
You nerf Holosmith, wow, gratz, amazing, but then players switch from Holosmith to Scrapper and the problem still persists.
There are nerfs that need to hit e-spec and there are nerfs that need to hit core, in this case core need to take a nerfbat.
Why you people always focus on wrong things, it's really ridiculous at this point.
Also thinking that Heat Therapy and Prismatic Converter is #1 sustain problem LOL

Heat therapy + compounding chemicals is what gives Holo such good sustain. They generate a lot of self might, and compounding chemicals heals you per stack. 

Prismatic converter + the Crystal configuration Zephyr gives Holo the ability to convert 3 condis into boons every time they leave forge (good holos will stay at high heat for additional cleanses). Meaning any random vuln, or poison you put on them becomes prot and regen. This also procs compounding chemicals. The ability to remove multiple non damaging condis on demand both helps remove cover condis and gives them a good matchup vs builds that rely on soft CC like Reaper chills and ranger immob. Add a cleansing sigil on top for good measure and Holo can get away with just revenant rune + their heal skill for cleanses  wheras Scrapper and core cannot get away with not running cleanses without requiring a support to babysit them vs condition heavy comps. 

If you nerfed holo, and people swapped to scrapper, you'd end up with a mid-tier build taking their place, which is fine. It would use these skills, it would get kills with them, but scrapper has historically been much less problematic than holo. 

If you nerf nades and Mortar, Holo would still be able to output heavy melee pressure, sustain well, kite with near-perma superspeed uptime, slow down your pursuit with chill grenades, chill mortar, cripple from various sources, ect.  Resustain, wait out forge cooldown, then pressure you in forge again, and people will continue complaining that nades/mortar/explosive entrance, grenade condis, ect. are too strong.

People said core was the issue the last... I've lost track of how many times... Yet while I've still yet to see core overperform, and while scrapper remains relatively balanced all things considered, it's still holo that's overperforming. 

Perhaps we should learn from the past and look at Holo this time. 

Edited December 25, 2021 by Kuma.1503

[Crab Fear.1624]

4 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

Truly needs to be addressed for Thief as well. Shooting at something while moving away shouldn't be a thing, there's a reason why movement is designed the way it is and there's a clear discrepancy in the professions that are currently really good which contributes to that.

😕

 

[Skoll.8650]

1 hour ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Despite core power engi being one of the weakest builds you can play in PvP at the moment, It sure gets complained about a lot. 

Took kit autos too strong. Grenades too strong. Mortar too strong. Supply Crate too strong. Explosive entrance too strong. CMC even considered nerfing Elixir Gun back when Prot holo was overperforing. 

You people do realize the core class will have to be nerfed into unplayability before Holo stops being an issue right? 

So long as any of the things I mentioned is remotely usable in PvP, Holo is going to abuse it and make it look broken because it has:

• A built in damage kit 
• Built in Might gen
• Built in sustain
• High vulnerability output
• Built in mobility
• Built in counterplay against reflects 
• Built in cleanse
• Built in finishers (lets them get more value out of mortar fields)
• Built in damage modifiers (this carries grenade barrage after the nerfs)

Scrapper isn't even overperforing with these skills at this point. Nade/Mortar Scrapper is good. It's fun to play, but It's far from the best roamer, teafighter, or 1v1er. 

And core using these skills is only good functional in teamfights, and that's only if the enemy doesn't bring a tempest or guard with reflects. The only viable weapon core can run with these skills is rifle which also gets cockblocked by reflects. 

Lets stop nerfing underpowered builds. 

We tried nerfing core the last dozen or so times, and Holo did not die. How about we nerf holo this time. Hit the actual problem directly. 

Pending a rework (which is overdue for kits anyway) Core skills should be left alone. 

I'm sorry but just because CORE power engineer isn't performing well does not mean traits and skills associated with it should be getting a free pass to not get any of its skills re-examine and adjusted. You bring up core having to get nerfed into unplayability, but that didn't stop core mesmer, warrior and other classes from getting hit with changes, I don't know why you think it should be a different case for core engineer specific skills. I'd be fine having Mortar kit and Grenade kit taking a back seat in usability until they get proper reworks then, since it appears to be too much to ask having ranged weapon skills only being useable in front of you so you can't just spam pressure behind you and run away. 

[Kuma.1503]

12 minutes ago, Skoll.8650 said:

I'm sorry but just because CORE power engineer isn't performing well does not mean traits and skills associated with it should be getting a free pass to not get any of its skills re-examine and adjusted. You bring up core having to get nerfed into unplayability, but that didn't stop core mesmer, warrior and other classes from getting hit with changes, I don't know why you think it should be a different case for core engineer specific skills. I'd be fine having Mortar kit and Grenade kit taking a back seat in usability until they get proper reworks then, since it appears to be too much to ask having ranged weapon skills only being useable in front of you so you can't just spam pressure behind you and run away. 

That's exactly what people said last time, and the time before that, and the time before that. Unsurprisingly, everytime Holo proves that the problem is NOT core and is infact, that the elite spec fixes so many inherent problems with the core spec, people immediately develop amnesia and decide that it's the next broken core thing that needs to be nerfed. 

It's the literal definition of insanity. If one strategy (nerfing core engi) doesn't work after the 12th or so attempt perhaps it's time for a change of approach? 

I'm legitimately curious. What makes you think that this nerf will make things any different? 

Power core engi using nades/mortar kit is a contender for one of the weakest builds in the game. It's already weaker than both core warrior and core mesmer.

 

Power Holo using the exact same setup, runes, utilities, ect, utilities is a contender for one of the strongest. Nerfing core engi in the past has not brought holo down despite repeated attempts. However, it has succeeded at killing the power core engi builds. 

It's so painfully obvious that the problem is Holo. The elite spec covers core engi's weaknesses with virtually no downsides. 

 

Edited December 25, 2021 by Kuma.1503

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

2 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

 

You people do realize the core class will have to be nerfed into unplayability before Holo stops being an issue right? 

 

This. 

I don't play engie much but people keep asking for balancing on weird things that are more about handicapping people using the class properly than fixing the interactions between the classes.

If they move away, fine, just also disengage. I don't think there are any classes right now that have cds bad enough to suffer from this except warrior and maybe necro. 

5 hours ago, Mik.3401 said:

I agree. This feels really like an exploit and enables crazy strong offense without much sacrifice.
 

 

It's only offense if you chase them and dont go the other way. They're sacrificing the node/giving you free breathing room otherwise.

If you don't chase them, and they have enough time to come back and start harassing you before your recovery CDs come up, then those cds likely need adjusting.

27 minutes ago, Skoll.8650 said:

 You bring up core having to get nerfed into unplayability, but that didn't stop core mesmer, warrior and other classes from getting hit with changes.

It didn't, but can we focus on getting the classes that are miserable and unplayed playable and less miserable instead of making other classes miserable as well? Breaking core to fix elites is annoying universally. and that doesn't need to be spread around. 

Edited December 25, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Genesis.5169]

Something i don't utilize enough fighting engineers but if you walk in a circle around the engineer snap targeting won't track they will have to lead target to hit you. Nothing can be done about spamming on there feet with quickness fury and 25stacks of might though.

[Crab Fear.1624]

5 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

Truly needs to be addressed for Thief as well. Shooting at something while moving away shouldn't be a thing, there's a reason why movement is designed the way it is and there's a clear discrepancy in the professions that are currently really good which contributes to that.

This is your opinion, and only given because your class shortbow performs this way, and not like thief.

Except maybe your shortbow 2, but they aint the same.

If thief had your shortbow kit, with initiative, I'd take it.

 

Things work differently for different classes because they have different innate defenses and mechanics.

 

Stop trying to homogenize skills, and also sound like a huge nerf.

 

The movement was designed that way, they even made the animation to show the bow firing over your head, it was literally designed to be able to do so.

 

I guess if you really want to go this technical route, we need to remove the ability to cancel elites while still gettting the animations, such as the glint elite and shiro elite. They are supposed to fire off once you cast the spell, and not be used for faking out opponents, that's not design...no...not design at all....

Edited December 25, 2021 by Crab Fear.1624

[Kuma.1503]

For anyone still wondering how there can be such a big discrepency between core engi and Holo. I have an excersize for you. 

I want you to make a core engi build. The only stipulation is that you have to include Grenades and Mortar kit in the build. These are broken enough to warrant nerfs so this shouldn't be a problem. 

Here's what you ideally want your build to have. 

At least 2 stunbreaks and condi cleanse. Ideally blocks and/or reflects as well. You'll want these if you want any hope of being a competent side noder

 

 mobility of some kind and sufficient damage to kill things. You'll want these if you want to be able to roam (so ideally zerk amulet and rocket boots)

You're going to be glassy so you're going to want some defense if you don't want to be rev/thief food. 

If you find this challenging, and you decide to drop defensive tools such as stunbreaks and cleanses, and/or blocks in leu of more damage, that's fine. You've got yourself a teamfight dps. You can rely on your support to cover you. 

Now you're going to want some countermeasures against reflects or projectile destruction, because otherwise you will have no pressure if the enemy picks support guard, tempest, and/or scourge with corrosive poision cloud. Meaning you will fail at your one job. Nades, mortar, and rifle (your only power weapon) all get countered by projectile hate.

If you forgo mobility you won't be able to roam

If you forego damage, you'll want enough sustain, cleanse and stunbreaks to at least bunker a node. Your best bet is probably to load up on CC so you can play some varient of decap. (truthfully I'm not even sure if that's possible with nades)

 

Now try the exact same excersize with Holo. Notice how much easier it is to get in everything you need. You can run shield so you've already got your block and reflect. Forge gives you mobility, damage, and cleanse so that frees up a lot of your build space. Just by taking holo and running a shield you've got most of the tools to make a semi competent roamer, 1v1er and teamfighter thanks to forge's cleave damage. 

Now you add in other core traits and utilities, slap on a sword for some nice burst damage when you drop forge, and you've got a top tier build. 

Edited December 25, 2021 by Kuma.1503

[Skoll.8650]

44 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

That's exactly what people said last time, and the time before that, and the time before that. Unsurprisingly, everytime Holo proves that the problem is NOT core and is infact, that the elite spec fixes so many inherent problems with the core spec, people immediately develop amnesia and decide that it's the next broken core thing that needs to be nerfed. 

It's the literal definition of insanity. If one strategy (nerfing core engi) doesn't work after the 12th or so attempt perhaps it's time for a change of approach? 

I'm legitimately curious. What makes you think that this nerf will make things any different? 

Power core engi using nades/mortar kit is a contender for one of the weakest builds in the game. Power Holo using the same set up. Same utilities is a contender for one of the strongest. Nerfing core engi in the past has not brought holo down despite repeated attempts. However, it has succeeded at killing the power core engi builds. 

Why do you think the problem THIS TIME is core and not holo? 

 

When Holo, Scrapper, or any Elite specs for that matter becomes more than 80% of the core class, we can talk about nerfing only Elite specs over core. Just because its core and the core class is not performing well comparative to the E-spec counter parts isn't a good excuse not to . The change suggested is all about commitment, stay and shoot or kite, you shouldn't be able to have both, it'll be healthier gameplay, because the current function is there's no draw back. 

 

34 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

It didn't, but can we focus on getting the classes that are miserable and unplayed playable and less miserable instead of making other classes miserable as well? Breaking core to fix elites is annoying universally. and that doesn't need to be spread around. 

We're trying to bring power creep down, not up. Buffing would mean more unneeded power creep, not to mention I find it comical that others who are on classes that weren't really hit by that big patch say the other classes are fine and balanced now. CMC has the right idea, and needs to hydrate to  put the rest of the overperforming BS under the table. Why would you be against spreading around good game design and gameplay??

 

 

7 minutes ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

This is your opinion, and only given because your class shortbow performs this way, and not like thief.

Except maybe your shortbow 2, but they aint the same.

If thief had your shortbow kit, with initiative, I'd take it.

 

Things work differently for different classes because they have different innate defenses and mechanics.

 

Stop trying to homogenize skills, and also sound like a huge nerf.

 

The movement was designed that way, they even made the animation to show the bow firing over your head, it was literally designed to be able to do so.

Thief SB should be changed too.  It's bad for the game. 

Edited December 25, 2021 by Skoll.8650

[Kuma.1503]

16 minutes ago, Skoll.8650 said:

When Holo, Scrapper, or any Elite specs for that matter becomes more than 80% of the core class, we can talk about nerfing only Elite specs over core. Just because its core and the core class is not performing well comparative to the E-spec counter parts isn't a good excuse not to . The change suggested is all about commitment, stay and shoot or kite, you shouldn't be able to have both, it'll be healthier gameplay, because the current function is there's no draw back. 

That doesn't make sense. Not just for engi, but for any class. A single traitline shouldn't need to provide 80% of a class's power budget in order for it to be nerfed over core. 

That would mean that you wouldn't touch the elite unless it's stronger than 2 core traitlines, any potential set of core utilities, or core weapons. And not just slightly stronger, meaning a 49/51% split in favor of the Elite, but 4x stronger. 

If that's honestly your take on the situation then I'd like your opinion on the nerfs to Scourge, seven shot renegade, pre-nerf Firebrand and D/P Daredevil, because none of these elites came close to hitting that 80/20 ratio. 

Edited December 25, 2021 by Kuma.1503

[Crab Fear.1624]

24 minutes ago, Skoll.8650 said:

When Holo, Scrapper, or any Elite specs for that matter becomes more than 80% of the core class, we can talk about nerfing only Elite specs over core. Just because its core and the core class is not performing well comparative to the E-spec counter parts isn't a good excuse not to . The change suggested is all about commitment, stay and shoot or kite, you shouldn't be able to have both, it'll be healthier gameplay, because the current function is there's no draw back. 

 

We're trying to bring power creep down, not up. Buffing would mean more unneeded power creep, not to mention I find it comical that others who are on classes that weren't really hit by that big patch say the other classes are fine and balanced now. CMC has the right idea, and needs to hydrate to  put the rest of the overperforming BS under the table. Why would you be against spreading around good game design and gameplay??

 

 

Thief SB should be changed too.  It's bad for the game. 

the whole thread and quesiton is non problem

 

it is lack of skill and awareness on op part.

 

sorry git gud mate.

[Skoll.8650]

10 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

That doesn't make sense. Not just for engi, but for any class. A single traitline shouldn't need to provide 80% of a class's power budget in order for it to be nerfed over core. 

That would mean that you wouldn't touch the elite unless it's stronger than 2 core traitlines, any potential set of core utilities, or core weapons. And not just slightly stronger, meaning a 49/51% split in favor of the Elite, but 4x stronger. 

If that's honestly your take on the situation then I'd like your opinion on the nerfs to Scourge, seven shot renegade, pre-nerf Firebrand and D/P Daredevil, because none of these elites came close to hitting that 80/20 ratio. 

The point is If it were just a single traitline, and not a traitline + utilities + class mechanics + weapons there'd be something to debate here. Elite specs get out of hand because it also dips its hands into core spec abilities and traits. No matter how you cut it, core is part of the problem. I don't have to go over the other E-specs, they all fall under the same point I made, and all of them use core abilities and traits.  So your point to only nerf elite specs when something about them overperforms or produces not healthy gameplay, but with the core spec component being the cause of the issue is kind of a silly thing.   

 

13 minutes ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

the whole thread and quesiton is non problem

 

it is lack of skill and awareness on op part.

 

sorry git gud mate.

Sounds like you can't adapt if it gets changed, if you're telling me to git gud 😆 SB needs a nerf, but in the same way Mortar and Grenade Kit does. 

[Crab Fear.1624]

9 minutes ago, Skoll.8650 said:

The point is If it were just a single traitline, and not a traitline + utilities + class mechanics + weapons there'd be something to debate here. Elite specs get out of hand because it also dips its hands into core spec abilities and traits. No matter how you cut it, core is part of the problem. I don't have to go over the other E-specs, they all fall under the same point I made, and all of them use core abilities and traits.  So your point to only nerf elite specs when something about them overperforms or produces not healthy gameplay, but with the core spec component being the cause of the issue is kind of a silly thing.   

 

Sounds like you can't adapt if it gets changed, if you're telling me to git gud 😆 SB needs a nerf, but in the same way Mortar and Grenade Kit does. 

Currently, I can play around both.

I don't need to git gud, you do.

 

 

[Skoll.8650]

11 minutes ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

Currently, I can play around both.

I don't need to git gud, you do.

 

 

Currently both need to be evaluated and changed regardless If I git gud or not, sorry to break it to you but it's for healthier gameplay, and just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean it's not correct. 

[Sleepwalker.1398]

Can i have Mesmer mantras back so i can spike someone behind me?

 

So if anyone doesn't know......
 

October 01, 2019

This skill now requires mesmers to face their target and respects line of sight.

[Kuma.1503]

17 minutes ago, Skoll.8650 said:

The point is If it were just a single traitline, and not a traitline + utilities + class mechanics + weapons there'd be something to debate here. Elite specs get out of hand because it also dips its hands into core spec abilities and traits. No matter how you cut it, core is part of the problem. I don't have to go over the other E-specs, they all fall under the same point I made, and all of them use core abilities and traits.  So your point to only nerf elite specs when something about them overperforms or produces not healthy gameplay, but with the core spec component being the cause of the issue is kind of a silly thing.   

 

Sounds like you can't adapt if it gets changed, if you're telling me to git gud 😆 SB needs a nerf, but in the same way Mortar and Grenade Kit does. 

Okay we're getting down to the meat of this. 

So your point, as far as I understand is that Nades, specifically the ability to fire behind you is unhealthy. It's too strong, and allows engi to do too much with little downside. They can kite you while still dishing out pressure, and they can be cast up close for melee pressure, so even when the engi is forced to retreat, they don't have to stop pressuring you. 

I'm not going to deny that there is an element of truth to this. A 900 range projectile that does good damage and fires behind you is a powerful mechanic. 

Even if nades don't overperform on their own. Nades + Holo overperforms. Since nades is part of the equation here, and since tossing projectiles behind you is unhealthy, it's worth nerfing despite the core build being objectively weak. 

That was my genuine attempt to steelman your argument. You can let me know how I did.

 

Here's why I think that logic is flawed. 

First, there's the major downsides of Grenades that's being overlooked. 

 

1. It's a pure dps kit with no built in defense, sustain, or cleanse. (besides a weak blind)

2. It takes up a utility slot

 

Next, there's core engi's trade-off. They do not get a weapon swap. Which means that, yes, while gaining 5 more skills in exhange for a utility slot is powerful. All taking grenades does is give the Engi what other classes have baseline. 

Since you sacrifced one of your utility slots for pure offense, you only have two slots left to fit in everything else you need. No matter what you do something important will be lacking. This makes it very hard to create a functional core engi build with Grenades. 

The end result. You have the very powerful upside of grenades:

Good damage, freedom to cast behind you, 900 range

And the downside of grenades

Pure Dps kit with no defense. Leaves you extremely vulnerable to counter-pressure if you take them, either from conditions, stuns, burst damage, or potentially all of the above. 

The end result is a balanced kit with upsides AND downsides. This is why I say Grenades are fine. The ability to cast behind you is what gives core grendier engi some semblance of defense, but it's completely negated vs projectile blocks and any class that can quickly close the gap on you like rev and thief. And due to your lack of defense when taking grenades, this usually leaves the nade engi as an easy kill. 

Holo on the other hand allows you to cover all of these weaknesses. By taking holo you can make up for these major downsides. Moreover, holo gives engi very solid melee pressure thanks to forge. So if a rev/thief jumps on you when you're spamming nades you can enter forge and fight back. This is what makes nades feel toxic. The combination of good melee pressure in forge AND the ability to kite by throwing nades behind you when you need to kite. 

That's without even factoring in the extra might gen and vulnerablity forge gives you to make nades hit harder, or the extra cleanse it gives you, removing yet another downside of running grenades. 

My point is that Holo takes what would otherwise be a balanced/weak class with stregnths AND weaknesses and removes the weaknesses. Therefore, you remove holo from the equation, nades are no longer a problem because Holo can't compensate for their flaws. 

 

 

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

3 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Heat therapy + compounding chemicals is what gives Holo such good sustain. They generate a lot of self might, and compounding chemicals heals you per stack. 

Prismatic converter + the Crystal configuration Zephyr gives Holo the ability to convert 3 condis into boons every time they leave forge (good holos will stay at high heat for additional cleanses). Meaning any random vuln, or poison you put on them becomes prot and regen. This also procs compounding chemicals. The ability to remove multiple non damaging condis on demand both helps remove cover condis and gives them a good matchup vs builds that rely on soft CC like Reaper chills and ranger immob. Add a cleansing sigil on top for good measure and Holo can get away with just revenant rune + their heal skill for cleanses  wheras Scrapper and core cannot get away with not running cleanses without requiring a support to babysit them vs condition heavy comps. 

If you nerfed holo, and people swapped to scrapper, you'd end up with a mid-tier build taking their place, which is fine. It would use these skills, it would get kills with them, but scrapper has historically been much less problematic than holo. 

If you nerf nades and Mortar, Holo would still be able to output heavy melee pressure, sustain well, kite with near-perma superspeed uptime, slow down your pursuit with chill grenades, chill mortar, cripple from various sources, ect.  Resustain, wait out forge cooldown, then pressure you in forge again, and people will continue complaining that nades/mortar/explosive entrance, grenade condis, ect. are too strong.

People said core was the issue the last... I've lost track of how many times... Yet while I've still yet to see core overperform, and while scrapper remains relatively balanced all things considered, it's still holo that's overperforming. 

Perhaps we should learn from the past and look at Holo this time. 

Explosive entrance need nerf though, ICD of 10s minimum is a must for that trait, it's free candy at this point.
I still don't get why you keep defending Grenade and Mortar kits though, if it's "not the root of the problem" then bug fixing should be fine to you, yet here you are bringing Holosmith into the discussion for some reason, like to justify it being broken while pointing your fingers at other more broken stuff on purpose.
I'm fully aware how busted Holosmith(and all other e-speces) overall is with it's kit and 99% of it could be fixed by slapping ICD on few traits and it would make it more bearable to play against. Then again, Grenade and Mortar kit would still be a problem here, because of how it can generate pressure while you're on defense, which shouldn't really be a thing if you want healthy gameplay in long run.
Scrapper is only "not busted" because PvP doesn't have good amulet to let them run free, beside that, it's also broken spec in long run.