Untamed in Wvw squads

[singanushiga.5803]

Can Untamed really replace Spellbreaker in Wvw?? I didn't want to share my opinion since it's a poll. I wonder what you think about Untamed as a frontliner in Wvw.

Edited January 5, 2022 by usulyagmur.4092

[Infusion.7149]

In its current state no, for several reasons:
* Pet doesn't have a stow option once in combat even in Unleash Ranger state meaning you cannot stealth push
* The default boon rip (Rending Vines , which rips 2 from 5 people on 15 cooldown) requires a pet which can die, unless you use the Greatsword ambush skill.
* Winds of Disenchantment is far more effective at shutting down aegis spam
* Doesn't provide stability to others unlike soulbeast
* Less focused DPS than soulbeast due to lack of merged bonuses

Edited December 29, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[anduriell.6280]

I don't see it happening. Even if Infusion points were to be addressed untamed also lacks any group utility:

* Spellbreaker also brings group heals and cleanses aside the bubble. Untamed brings nothing to replace that. 

3 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

The default boon rip (Rending Vines , which rips 2 from 5 people on 15 cooldown) requires a pet which can die, unless you use the Greatsword ambush skill.

I'd like to point out the boonrip has a radius of 180 on  the pet position which means 5 enemies need to be fused together with the AI in the same pixel. So I would not think that would work very well in wvw scenario and mostly would impact one or two targets at most. 

Also in case anybody may think about a supporting new pet from EoD being a king of the supports (like the phoenix):
* There is no mechanic in place which would make a pet to go to an specific position/to an friendly. Which means unless those skills are fairly big AoEs they would not do anything, similar to how the healing screech from the moas  is  totally ineffective. 

Big AoEs means less control over the results which means less effective. 

And if you say: "pulsing effects around the pet" just think how the untamed need to chase after the pet when using the bubble Enveloping Haze if they want to block projectile with that. Those AIs do not stay close to the ranger even when they should. 

At the end the untamed will need a rework one way or another. 

Edited December 29, 2021 by anduriell.6280

[anduriell.6280]

3 hours ago, usulyagmur.4092 said:

Can Untamed really replace Spellbreaker in Wvw?? I didn't want to share my opinion since it's a poll. I wonder what you think about Untamed as a frontliner in Wvw.

In any case I would love to hear also your opinion too. Even if we don't share the same point of view it would not be the first time I am mistaken in my position and your points could sway my negative perception of the elite. 

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

42 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

I don't see it happening. Even if Infusion points were to be addressed untamed also lacks any group utility:

* Spellbreaker also brings group heals and cleanses aside the bubble. Untamed brings nothing to replace that. 

I'd like to point out the boonrip has a radius of 180 on  the pet position which means 5 enemies need to be fused together with the AI in the same pixel. So I would not think that would work very well in wvw scenario and mostly would impact one or two targets at most. 

Also in case anybody may think about a supporting new pet from EoD being a king of the supports (like the phoenix):
* There is no mechanic in place which would make a pet to go to an specific position/to an friendly. Which means unless those skills are fairly big AoEs they would not do anything, similar to how the healing screech from the moas  is  totally ineffective. 

Big AoEs means less control over the results which means less effective. 

And if you say: "pulsing effects around the pet" just think how the untamed need to chase after the pet when using the bubble Enveloping Haze if they want to block projectile with that. Those AIs do not stay close to the ranger even when they should. 

At the end the untamed will need a rework one way or another. 

I'd like to add: Spellbreaker brings alot more than just what's listed here. They have boon removal, boon application (Might, Fury, Swiftness, Vigor), heals, cleanses, a powerful AoE revive (small-scale/non-WoD builds), damage boost, barrier, lots of CC and a fair amount of Cripple, Immobilise and Vulnerability, even Fear.

 

And I'm pretty sure I missed some stuff. I don't see Untamed ever competing with it. Soulbeast on the other hand gets kind of close already, but Stanceshare isn't strong enough.

Edited December 29, 2021 by Hannelore.8153

[Beddo.1907]

Soulbeast is already better in WvW squads and they are insta kicked.

If your usefulness depends on the pet then you are not useful.

[InsaneQR.7412]

Honestly if pets would get stealthed when the ranger does and would get the same boons and buffs too, ranger overall could fit in squads.

The issue is taht pets die to easy, reveal stealthed armies and generally do not provide enough to the squad itself.

Pets need improvements across the board. After that we can talk about teh spec itself.

Generally i would swap dagger and hammer from untamed to soulbeast and vice versa. I would give Soulbeast the Boonrips and CC and give untamed the boonshare and condi capabilities. Untamed would be a nice dualist while soulbeast would be a good Zerg option.

[Infusion.7149]

4 hours ago, Beddo.1907 said:

Soulbeast is already better in WvW squads and they are insta kicked.

If your usefulness depends on the pet then you are not useful.

Unmerged maybe they are kicked but unless camping a longbow or being a meme (max range on tower like a archer roleplayer or something and not doing anything useful) I have not seen soulbeasts being kicked. Maybe it is different for your commanders and you need to find new tags to follow.

[Beddo.1907]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Unmerged maybe they are kicked but unless camping a longbow or being a meme (max range on tower like a archer roleplayer or something and not doing anything useful) I have not seen soulbeasts being kicked. Maybe it is different for your commanders and you need to find new tags to follow.

The only time where you won't get kicked is when there is not enough players.

But I'm talking about large squads where it's better to have an empty slot to keep boons and heals on the more valuable players. Sharing stances and cleaving is not enough when one heal can save someone who provides constant flow of healing and boons.

[Infusion.7149]

Just now, Beddo.1907 said:

The only time where you won't get kicked is when there is not enough players.

But I'm talking about large squads where it's better to have an empty slot to keep boons and heals on the more valuable players. Sharing stances and cleaving is not enough when one heal can save someone who provides constant flow of healing and boons.

Are you following 50 man squads?
Normally we just put soulbeasts in sub 1 if there's not enough firebrand stability.

[Wild.1705]

Disclaimer: My WVW server is Dragonbrand. Maybe my server is just full of nice people.

When I play WVW I click on a commander's tag to join their squad and we play WVW. There have been no "rules", no set roles that must be in the group, no getting kicked, and no racial slurs (I'm a Sylvari).

Have we been playing the same game? I have been playing for 5 years now, and although I mostly play PVP and PVE my WVW experience has been ultra chill. I turn my brain off and smash my face on my keyboard while outnumbering enemies and that is about it. Good time for a podcast.

Maybe some day I will get a commander tag. If you join my squad someday I will attack enemy keeps and do other objectives. I also wont kick you from the group or be toxic because I am a good person and most of WVW is simple non-stressful fun.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Soulbeast is one of the strongest classes to put next to another support in a squad, because most of their support skills are instant cast. If a Comm expects constant interrupts (e.g facing alot of siege with knockback like Catapults), they'll often move SBs directly next to Firebrand/Tempest/etc.

 

Boon Duraiton SoulBeast is 40% uptime on group Stability from one skill. I've never seen a Soulbeast get kicked unless its one of those 2sec 100-0 builds with Longbow.

Edited December 30, 2021 by Hannelore.8153

[anduriell.6280]

Just now, Hannelore.8153 said:

Soulbeast is one of the strongest classes to put next to another support in a squad, because most of their support skills are instant cast. If a Comm expects constant interrupts (e.g facing alot of siege), they'll often move SBs directly next to FB/Ele/etc.

I've never seen a Soulbeast get kicked unless its one of those 2sec 100-0 builds with Longbow.

Keeping soulbeast in the thieves party is the same as not having them in the squad at all. In EU they are not wanted and they are kept in those trashbin parties within the squad and are kicked as soon as those spots are needed. 

It doesn't matter in the end, 4 different opinions here will not change the general negative sentiment against the soulbeast and ranger in general. 2 elites with very bad design related to team play and untamed is following suit behind. 

Returning to OP topic, untamed brings nothing of the sorts. Only brings extra clunkiness with the mandatory manual casting of every single pet skill.

At this point it could be a good idea to delay the release of the EoD ranger Elite and concentrate on the class after EoD comes out to perform all the needed changes: From balancing core pets, to fixing core and druid to rework untamed into something people will want to use. 

All this comes to the same thing i've been saying for the longest time: Core needs to be fixed before trying to implement new elites. While the core class stays  so stripped of all the utilities they used to have before all the nerfs (cleave in form of throwable traps, team support in form of mobile spirits, all the traits empowering condition builds...)  new elites will need extra dedication to be able to compensate for all the missing features without breaking the game. 

 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

On 12/29/2021 at 2:46 PM, Beddo.1907 said:

The only time where you won't get kicked is when there is not enough players.

But I'm talking about large squads where it's better to have an empty slot to keep boons and heals on the more valuable players. Sharing stances and cleaving is not enough when one heal can save someone who provides constant flow of healing and boons.

 

You really have to start specifying group sizes in your original posts if you are going to make these claims; as while yes ranger (as a whole) is useless in k-training in a zerg around EBG it is very effective in 15 or under combat (i.e. havoc).  

 

Basically if someone comes along and reads this: 

 

On 12/29/2021 at 8:00 AM, Beddo.1907 said:

Soulbeast is already better in WvW squads and they are insta kicked.

If your usefulness depends on the pet then you are not useful.

 

They would think SB gets kicked from all squads, not just large ones.  

[Soilder.3607]

Untamed will not be WvW viable because of the reliance on the pet. The Ranger pet has been unviable in zergs since launch because pets almost always immediately die during the first fight between zergs. Arenanet has never addressed the fundamental issue of pets being unviable in WvW zergs, possibly out of fear of making the pet imbalanced in small scale play.

 

Quote

Pets receive 95% reduced damage from most ground AoE attacks from PvE enemies, and are immune to environmental hazards such as lava. This behavior is shared by ranger spirits and most summons in the game.

 

Pet used to die to AoE and large fights in PvE all the time. Arenanet gave pets 95% damage reduction to most AoE forms of damage in PvE to address this. This damage reduction was not extended to pets in WvW where it is direly needed in zergs most likely because, once again, it would be incredibly imbalanced in small scale and 1v1.

 

If Arenanet does not at all in the future of the game give pets incredibly imbalanced mechanics in WvW like 95% damage reduction, immunity to all CC, immunity to all condi, automatic full boon and buff share with the Ranger, then they will never be viable in zerg play. It's as simple as that and nothing more needs to be said.

 

However, what should be said is that pets and other types of summon/AI are inherently bad in zerg play because of the nature of their mechanics, such as not being able to dodge, not staying 100% in the same exact location as their owner that way they are tight on a squad tag, not gaining all boons and stealth and superspeed etc etc etc... So pet mechanics should be scrapped in WvW, and Arenanet essentially tried doing that twice with the Ranger. Druid kept the pet but didn't need it to fulfill the mechanics of Druid, and so even with a dead pet Druid more or less play abouts as effectively as a supporter as it can be. Soulbeast obviously merges with the pet and takes it out of the equation completely. And even with these two elite specs Ranger has only ever seen small/niche roles in zergs, never being part of the meta.

 

The pet being the class mechanic is dumb and a failure to begin with. In a game as dynamic and fast paced as Guild Wars 2, AI's can never, ever be as effective as a player, so limiting the strength of one class by way of reliance on its pet was always a flawed approach, and here we are 9 years later seeing the same problem in WvW that has always existed. Pets still cant even move while attacking. In a game as mobile as this where you should always be moving, pets still after 9 years have not been programmed to move while channeling their attacks. It's a failure of a mechanic, always has been, always will be, should've been scrapped one year in when every player realized how bad pets were. Soulbeast went halfway. Soulbeast should've been permanently merged with the pet allowing you to swap to a new pet while merged and then gain their pet skills, all the time staying merged and never unmerging. 

[Gorem.8104]

Sort of amazed even a single person voted yes (one vote yes, literally everyone else no) 

Untamed is a selfish spec that relies on a pet. So 100% useless in wvw. It Maybe, maybe be a spvp spec but literally excels at nothing else and again, the pet ai is horrendous in pvp. It has no real purpose - would need massive changes to actually be a useful spec. 

Immob SB it is. At least we can dps, barrage, and immob groups multiple times over while giving group Stab. Already, so much better then anything Untamed could ever bring. 

[Beddo.1907]

16 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Basically if someone comes along and reads this: 

 

On 12/29/2021 at 2:00 PM, Beddo.1907 said:

Soulbeast is already better in WvW squads and they are insta kicked.

If your usefulness depends on the pet then you are not useful.

 

They would think SB gets kicked from all squads, not just large ones.  

Ok let me rephrase that:

Soulbeast is already better in WvW "proper squads"* and they are still insta kicked.

If your usefulness depends on the pet then you are not useful.

*Proper squad is a squad that has actual cooperation instead of unbalanced bundles of 5 player teams with random class and role amounts that exists to make following the main bulk of the squad easier. The number of players before unneeded classes are kicked depends on commander, but usually starts with 5 teams (25 players) capable of reacting to commanders calls, having consistent healing, providing all boons and having some of the utility (includes but not limited to: mass rez, projectile hate, boon strip/corrupt).

Better?

[Abyssisis.3971]

Why would I bring an untamed to the front lines when I can do the same job on another class easier and more efficiently? If I buy the expansion, I won’t be buying it for the untamed.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

On 1/2/2022 at 9:29 AM, Beddo.1907 said:

Ok let me rephrase that:

Soulbeast is already better in WvW "proper squads"* and they are still insta kicked.

If your usefulness depends on the pet then you are not useful.

*Proper squad is a squad that has actual cooperation instead of unbalanced bundles of 5 player teams with random class and role amounts that exists to make following the main bulk of the squad easier. The number of players before unneeded classes are kicked depends on commander, but usually starts with 5 teams (25 players) capable of reacting to commanders calls, having consistent healing, providing all boons and having some of the utility (includes but not limited to: mass rez, projectile hate, boon strip/corrupt).

Better?

 

Yeah, I do agree with this.  I guess I've not felt the 'insta kicking' yet as have been invited to a few squads out of the blue, but can attest to feeling pretty useless in any large fight because it is true ranger lacks tools for this. 

 

Also true that untamed fixes nothing despite being billed as fixing things...which is kind of a depressing outlook for the state of the game actually.  

[Grand Marshal.4098]

On 12/29/2021 at 10:27 AM, Hannelore.8153 said:

I'd like to add: Spellbreaker brings alot more than just what's listed here. They have boon removal, boon application (Might, Fury, Swiftness, Vigor), heals, cleanses, a powerful AoE revive (small-scale/non-WoD builds), damage boost, barrier, lots of CC and a fair amount of Cripple, Immobilise and Vulnerability, even Fear.

 

And I'm pretty sure I missed some stuff. I don't see Untamed ever competing with it. Soulbeast on the other hand gets kind of close already, but Stanceshare isn't strong enough.

eeeeeehhh?

 

Not saying Untamed is good but a few misconceptions on SpB:

2 builds rn for SpB in zergs:

 

DPS SpB and Boonstrip SpB

 

DPS is all about dmg and Boonstrip. WoD never, ever, leaves SpB's bar. Never. Full stop. SpB with no bubble is not much in proper coordinated play, sadly for us warr mains. The banner is something Burstzerkers carry since it's the only meaningful Core Elite with group capabilities (SoR with Phalanx is a painful story).

 

The Boonstrip Tank variant brings the rest. But, not really. Once more WoD and BE are the hard options. Endure Pain, Dolyak Signet, Balanced Stance (with proper cleansing to avoid fearlocking ofc) are all more useful options as stunbreaks than no stunbreak in the form of FGJ which is isn't that strong without Phalanx, tho still good n certain situations. The heaing from shouts is pitiful. The only use shouts have are cleansing. Trooper rune for more efficient cleansing. Assuming your do run 3 shouts, otherwise wasted potential with SiO and TTL. Better go durab rune for some actually good boons warrior has no way of sharing in the first place. Warhorn is quite aight with full minstrel and when traited. Otherwise the barrier is around 3k to 4k. Barely a game changer. Only source of barrier. The dmg boost refers to? All classes have a way of boosting dmg for themselves. Warrior has none outside might for allies and BoS lololololol. 

 

SpBs are still rare. There is hardly a need for 4 bubbles in a blob. Usually at that scale it's mega bomb wipe so everything drops, or even if 2 bubbles drop, another 2 can finish the job. Untamed brings only boonstrip and Dmg. In essence DPS Spellbreaker. So the question isn't how to replace SpB, but how a player will use the spec to provide something to the zerg. Cause I may as well run Phalanx Core to top DPS and share perma Might better than Heralds, but have it stripped all the time. Not rly useful.

 

If Ranger players, come up with a DPS build which can compete with SpB if played correctly (Defense DPS SpBs obviously do less dmg than Strength SpBs) while maintaining a moderate top 5 to top 10 depends on squad size, boonstrip capability, then no reason for it not to be zerg acceptable. But you need to find one thing in that build which will offer something unique in the zerg. Search and rescue for rezzes? Elite Spirit like a banner for instant revives? Up to rangers. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

eeeeeehhh?

 

Not saying Untamed is good but a few misconceptions on SpB:

2 builds rn for SpB in zergs:

 

DPS SpB and Boonstrip SpB

I think Hannelore was encompassing all of WvW, but yeah no one takes Fear Me unless it is in small scale roaming.

2 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

DPS is all about dmg and Boonstrip. WoD never, ever, leaves SpB's bar. Never. Full stop. SpB with no bubble is not much in proper coordinated play, sadly for us warr mains. The banner is something Burstzerkers carry since it's the only meaningful Core Elite with group capabilities (SoR with Phalanx is a painful story).

 

The Boonstrip Tank variant brings the rest. But, not really. Once more WoD and BE are the hard options. Endure Pain, Dolyak Signet, Balanced Stance (with proper cleansing to avoid fearlocking ofc) are all more useful options as stunbreaks than no stunbreak in the form of FGJ which is isn't that strong without Phalanx, tho still good n certain situations. The heaing from shouts is pitiful. The only use shouts have are cleansing. Trooper rune for more efficient cleansing. Assuming your do run 3 shouts, otherwise wasted potential with SiO and TTL. Better go durab rune for some actually good boons warrior has no way of sharing in the first place. Warhorn is quite aight with full minstrel and when traited. Otherwise the barrier is around 3k to 4k. Barely a game changer. Only source of barrier. The dmg boost refers to? All classes have a way of boosting dmg for themselves. Warrior has none outside might for allies and BoS lololololol. 

The damage boost would be from Charge, but it is only 10% and only for 2 attacks which would all be wasted by AAs.

Though Hannelore is right that a SpB brings lots of cleanses, a small amount of AoE boons, and a small amount of barrier, a small damage boost, a few small heals (you see the trend here Hannelore?), and batches of small amounts of boon removal when the other Blob is coated head to toe in boons. WoD is great because it keeps those boons from being reapplied. If it only removed boons then SpB would disappear from zergs and more scourges would be taken instead.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

3 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I think Hannelore was encompassing all of WvW, but yeah no one takes Fear Me unless it is in small scale roaming.

The damage boost would be from Charge, but it is only 10% and only for 2 attacks which would all be wasted by AAs.

Though Hannelore is right that a SpB brings lots of cleanses, a small amount of AoE boons, and a small amount of barrier, a small damage boost, a few small heals (you see the trend here Hannelore?), and batches of small amounts of boon removal when the other Blob is coated head to toe in boons. WoD is great because it keeps those boons from being reapplied. If it only removed boons then SpB would disappear from zergs and more scourges would be taken instead.

Ye, I was more or less simply pointing out that SpB is OK in zergs, cause of the bubble, which now can't move around like it used to. So unless both zergs commit for a final bombing, staying into the bubbles, they are usually dodged out of quite fast, unless, again, somehow in super close range, or secret bomb coordination. 

 

So Untamed, tho I didn't try a lot, if it can provide equal results to a DPS SpB cause a tank variant of Untamed isn't the same, probably it will be sought after. Or actually, it won't be kicked. But that's still tough cause the 4 titans of zergs do many things well (Scourge, FB, Scrapper, Herald) so all the rest are niche roles. Warrior is a niche role. You can have squad with no SpB of your players know what they do and commit to it. It's simply easier to drop a bubble and deny some boons than not to. 

 

 

[anduriell.6280]

12 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Ye, I was more or less simply pointing out that SpB is OK in zergs, cause of the bubble, which now can't move around like it used to. So unless both zergs commit for a final bombing, staying into the bubbles, they are usually dodged out of quite fast, unless, again, somehow in super close range, or secret bomb coordination. 

I may be mistaken but SpB plays support SpB which is a build in demand: heals and cleanses by using the shouts. 

At least in ArcDPS that build ranked better than FBs in cleanses and just behind scrappers and eles  in cleanses effectivity ( this before the nerf to purity of purpose so now it may rank better depending on the experience of the player)  

I mean the main role is boonrip but is not all they can do. Because they can be very tanky they can stay in the frontlines longer which means they are very consistent with the healing and cleanses. The bubble is very effective when used in a semi-organized squad, thus voice squad even if they are pugs.  With random pugs don't bother to drop the bubble and the banner is better in those situations. 

I mean obviously it can not compare to scourge, scrapper or FB in terms of utility but don't sell SpB short. Definitely SpB is not like the immob soulbeast meme pitty build  and Spellbreaker has a legitimate spot in squads  albeit not many.  

[Grand Marshal.4098]

4 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

I may be mistaken but SpB plays support SpB which is a build in demand: heals and cleanses by using the shouts. 

At least in ArcDPS that build ranked better than FBs in cleanses and just behind scrappers and eles  in cleanses effectivity ( this before the nerf to purity of purpose so now it may rank better depending on the experience of the player)  

I mean the main role is boonrip but is not all they can do. Because they can be very tanky they can stay in the frontlines longer which means they are very consistent with the healing and cleanses. The bubble is very effective when used in a semi-organized squad, thus voice squad even if they are pugs.  With random pugs don't bother to drop the bubble and the banner is better in those situations. 

I mean obviously it can not compare to scourge, scrapper or FB in terms of utility but don't sell SpB short. Definitely SpB is not like the immob soulbeast meme pitty build  and Spellbreaker has a legitimate spot in squads  albeit not many.  

They interrupt a lot ye. The cleanses are aight but the healing is negligible. Legit. Ventari Revs heal for more iirc. If SpB lacked the bubble (which it doesn't rn but more of a point of discussion) it'd be almost unplayable. And Battle Standard would be the staple for any warrior build in zergs. Point is, you, the spellbreaker, must wait for your WoD call. The rest of the time you do nothing. 

 

Overextend into the enemy and you die, stay close to your team to 'cleanse and heal' and you don't strip enough etc. 

 

Still SpB one of the Tier 2 significance specs, but Untamed bringing something of value in the squad on top of its Boonstrip (unique role for ranger) and moderate dps is going to make it sought after the normal groups. Not talking about some hardcore comp. 

 

Cause like in my open field guild, we got for example an immob druid in our runs, we got a stanceshare Soulbeast sometimes, we got core Phalanx warr dps, we got alac Renegade. You know it's OK to have such classes, tier 3 and lesser in your comp. It's always good to know how to play other things, but imo tho the tools may not be easy for ranger mains to get, I'm positive that with dedication and good theory crafting someone will come up with a decent zerg untamed build. 

[anduriell.6280]

2 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

I'm positive that with dedication and good theory crafting someone will come up with a decent zerg untamed build. 

I like your positive attitude, I really hope you are right.