Perma Stealth Thiefs - What to do?

[Burial.1958]

8 minutes ago, Leolas.6273 said:

 Slow reflexes on thief c'mon that is the first time in 10 years that i read that. This class is the class where the player should have big reflexes and timing. Really absurd what you wrote here.

Yeah and thats why Thief is one of the classes with a higher skillcap and all other classes don't have brainded 0815 rotations?

 

The arguments are getting really ridiculous

[kash.9213]

46 minutes ago, Virdo.1540 said:

Its not that thief players are hard to catch and "outskill" others. If the maximum skill ceiling of almost every class is not able to catch up with mediocre thief players, due to quick epic range teleports, perma stealth and full healing every couple of seconds, its not a l2p issue. Its not even hard to be unkillable ,especially since no classes can oneshot it anymore, so its so much more forgiving to have slow reflexes on thief. The one and main problem with thief is just permastealth. Never seeing where a thief is inside any tower ,keep or castle while in roaming situations, if you actually managed to get a big hit into your health, you just go permastealth, keep enemys in fight and wait until your healskill is ready to heal you up. There is no build thats anywhere near an shadow-arts build when it comes to an braindead playstyle.

You're complaining about a lot, and a lot that's not likely to happen at the same time regardless of how you spin it, so permastealth isn't your "one and main problem." 

They don't just "go into permastealth" when they get hit. If there was a button for that there'd be more people playing thief. 

The one "brain dead" trait in SA is Cloaked in Shadow and most thieves don't take that trait. It's an overly strong Trait line at the moment and some of the traits need to be looked at (but mostly about a few decent traits being strong together or in tandem with certain weapon sets), I don't think there needs to be increased Stealth duration there for example, but it's not a brain dead style.

Edited April 7, 2022 by kash.9213

[Kozumi.5816]

48 minutes ago, Virdo.1540 said:

Its not that thief players are hard to catch and "outskill" others. If the maximum skill ceiling of almost every class is not able to catch up with mediocre thief players, due to quick epic range teleports, perma stealth and full healing every couple of seconds, its not a l2p issue. Its not even hard to be unkillable ,especially since no classes can oneshot it anymore, so its so much more forgiving to have slow reflexes on thief. The one and main problem with thief is just permastealth. Never seeing where a thief is inside any tower ,keep or castle while in roaming situations, if you actually managed to get a big hit into your health, you just go permastealth, keep enemys in fight and wait until your healskill is ready to heal you up. There is no build thats anywhere near an shadow-arts build when it comes to an braindead playstyle.

Yes, Thief is the easiest class in the game.

There was once a time where any decent thief player flamed shadow arts thieves. Now even Sindrenner thinks SA is mandatory to play thief.

Edited April 7, 2022 by Kozumi.5816

[smiiirf.3201]

11 minutes ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

Yes, Thief is the easiest class in the game.

There was once a time where any decent thief player flamed shadow arts thieves. Now even Sindrenner thinks SA is mandatory to play thief.

The easiest Class....sure. 🤣 Go play one and tell us how easy it is. Make a video pls. 

 

Ps: Sind said that because many other Traitlines are bad as hell , like Acro with 300 CD Traits no one will ever use. 

Edited April 7, 2022 by Leolas.6273

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

On 3/11/2022 at 10:26 PM, Kontrolle.3514 said:

the most kitten mechanic and class balance in the history of mmo. Roamers have to endure this garbage for 9 jears now. It kills the fun for everyone. This class alone is the reason why most people, that i know stopped playing, including me. Im just here for EoD for a while. I also write my 2 cents  every time i visit this forum in such a thread. 

 

There is always a thread like this in wvw. Always, since 9 jears.

The fact that there was no comment for three weeks before your comment means this thread likely wasn't on the first page of the forum, which in turn means you actively sought out a thread about this specific topic. Behaviour like that might explain why there is always a thread like this. 

[Sahne.6950]

12 hours ago, Virdo.1540 said:

Its not that thief players are hard to catch and "outskill" others. If the maximum skill ceiling of almost every class is not able to catch up with mediocre thief players, due to quick epic range teleports, perma stealth and full healing every couple of seconds, its not a l2p issue. Its not even hard to be unkillable ,especially since no classes can oneshot it anymore, so its so much more forgiving to have slow reflexes on thief. The one and main problem with thief is just permastealth. Never seeing where a thief is inside any tower ,keep or castle while in roaming situations, if you actually managed to get a big hit into your health, you just go permastealth, keep enemys in fight and wait until your healskill is ready to heal you up. There is no build thats anywhere near an shadow-arts build when it comes to an braindead playstyle.

That is just straight up biased.... Please for the love of god go play thief. It is no where near as strong as you think it is. How can people be so biased about thief... 

Because of this debate we are having here i jumped on my d/p thief after almost a year. First thing that happened? I got onebanged by a Dragonhunter. He  stepped out of a tower and used his Dragonhunterspear i could not see it coming because it came from behind me. He pulled me into his trap. I immediatly Shadowstepped out of it but i still instantly died! Just the spear, passing the wall of the trap once, and the normalhit he did ,which followed my shadowstep are enough. I flapped over 100 to 0 in less than a second, ALTHO I did Stunbreak,  jump out of the trap and immediatly tried stealthing. You are incredibly biased and think theef is a godclass. When in reality it is not. Please for the love of god! PLAY IT! and tell me afterwards with a straight face, that you got alot of kills, have not died once, and that it was easy. Because you guys make it look like that thief is braindead and completly carrys the player. which is outright wrong.

Virdo! i challenge you to play thief for 1 hour and keep track of you K/D and post your result. If the class is as braindead as you make it sound like you should be capable of playing it and having great succes.! PLEASE i beg you! DO IT! play it once! then come back and tell me again how easy and unkillable thief is.

I love how people are complaining about Thief being busted, when there literally is a bajillion other classes that will literally never die to a thief unless they have a disconnect. PLEEASE try and kill a Celestialharbinger as thief. IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. There is so many Builds that perform on a level that is in a completly other Galaxy... Yet we have to nerf Thief....because... you think its annoying?

Please please please please please, Join WvW as a thief and go and try kill a harbinger, a Renegade, or basicly anything celestial. After that experience i bet all my money you will come back to the forums and start a "Thief does Noodledamage" Thread.

The level of bias in this thread is unmatched.

Edited April 8, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Sahne.6950]

11 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

es, Thief is the easiest class in the game.

easiest class for what? because it is surely not the easiest class to get kills. NOTHING(besides maybe mesmer) should die to a Thief in 1v1. If you Died to one... you got outskilled. Period.

I myself have died numerous times to thiefs, but that because i paniced/made mistakes/or got straight up outsmarted, and not because Thief is blatantly overpowered.

You guys have to stop pretending that Thief is easymode... because in reality IT IS NOT. I tell you the same thing i tell everyone that is biased about a class.   GO PLAY IT! You will notice after 15 minutes that its no where near as strong as you say it is. You may be hard to catch, and Stealth allows you to sneak into places that most classes could not be in, for example in the middle of 4 enemys,  BUT WHEN IT COMES TO KILLING THINGS.... KILLING THINGS SOLO AS A THIEF IS NOT EASY / BORDERLINE IMPOSSIBLE IF THE OTHER PERSON IS EQUALLY SKILLED!

Just go in to Wvw or if you dont have the gear for it pvp and play a few rounds as thief. Then you can come back and tell me that you have not died once, went on a 30 killingspree, and that it was easy.    

PLEASE DO IT!  Record your glorious Journey if you dont mind!  i always like a good laugh. ❤️

 

Edited April 8, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Yellow Rainbow.6142]

"Please please please please please, Join WvW as a thief and go and try kill a harbinger, a Renegade, or basicly anything celestial. "

I play celestial because thief backstabbing me. Thief definitely dictated how I roam. I used to run full Berserker and still do sometime but got tired of getting trolled by thief. So, I run majority of time in Cele Gear.

I admit, I have not lost 1v1 with thief with Cele gear but It was thief that made me play Cele.

[Littlekenny.4196]

1 hour ago, Sahne.6950 said:

easiest class for what? because it is surely not the easiest class to get kills. NOTHING(besides maybe mesmer) should die to a Thief in 1v1. If you Died to one... you got outskilled. Period.

I myself have died numerous times to thiefs, but that because i paniced/made mistakes/or got straight up outsmarted, and not because Thief is blatantly overpowered.

You guys have to stop pretending that Thief is easymode... because in reality IT IS NOT. I tell you the same thing i tell everyone that is biased about a class.   GO PLAY IT! You will notice after 15 minutes that its no where near as strong as you say it is. You may be hard to catch, and Stealth allows you to sneak into places that most classes could not be in, for example in the middle of 4 enemys,  BUT WHEN IT COMES TO KILLING THINGS.... KILLING THINGS SOLO AS A THIEF IS NOT EASY / BORDERLINE IMPOSSIBLE IF THE OTHER PERSON IS EQUALLY SKILLED!

Just go in to Wvw or if you dont have the gear for it pvp and play a few rounds as thief. Then you can come back and tell me that you have not died once, went on a 30 killingspree, and that it was easy.    

PLEASE DO IT!  Record your glorious Journey if you dont mind!  i always like a good laugh. ❤️

 

Idk if people are claiming that thief is the best class at killing but it it is definitely the best class at not being killed and is easier than anything else I've played at it, including warrior. It isn't guaranteed to kill enemies but you only die from your own mistakes.

Imo thief is just broken af. I run a staff/staff zerg build (no SA or shadowstep) and still kill stuff when I get ganked while trying to regroup because of the stupid amounts of mobility, evasion, and damage (if you take a damage weapon it does a lot of damage).

[Sahne.6950]

23 minutes ago, Littlekenny.4196 said:

Idk if people are claiming that thief is the best class at killing but it it is definitely the best class at not being killed and is easier than anything else I've played at it, including warrior. It isn't guaranteed to kill enemies but you only die from your own mistakes.

Imo thief is just broken af. I run a staff/staff zerg build (no SA or shadowstep) and still kill stuff when I get ganked while trying to regroup because of the stupid amounts of mobility, evasion, and damage (if you take a damage weapon it does a lot of damage).

but why is that opverpowered? The thief cant kill you and you can not kill the thief. If the thief still tries to kill you... he dies...  Why exactly do we need to nerf thief? Thief is only the best at not getting killed if the thief doesnt try to actually kill the enemy. As soon as the thief greeds and actually tries to go for the kill... he is most likely dying himself.   

YEAHH Better nerf thief😆

 

Edited April 8, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Sahne.6950]

32 minutes ago, Yellow Rainbow.6142 said:

I admit, I have not lost 1v1 with thief with Cele gear but It was thief that made me play Cele.

There it is. There is builds or certain statcombinations that are outright untouchable for thiefs... yet we have to nerf thief? I dont get it.

"THIEF KILLED ME! :C SO I STARTED USING CELESTIAL AND ALL OF A SUDDEN I AM UNKILLABLE FOR THIEFS!"     Conclusion:  NERF THIEF.      

like... what the duck dude xD Do you not see that there is WAYY stronger things in WvW than thief? most notably ANYTHING celestial.

 

Edited April 8, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Littlekenny.4196]

1 minute ago, Sahne.6950 said:

but why is that opverpowered? The thief cant kill you and you can not kill the thief. If the thief still tries to kill you... he dies...  Why exactly do we need to nerf thief?

The thief locks you in combat and get multiple attempts against you by stealthing and resetting.

You have to be paying attention and trying to predict where they will move and when they will attack while they just move out of the red circles if you predict correctly which is a big imbalance of focus and skill requirements.

 

There are cele builds which are stronger and just as easy to play but at least they don't waste your time and when you're gonna kill them they die. It also helps to be able to see what you're fighting to learn what they are doing and to know if they are trying to escape or staying to fight.

[Sahne.6950]

5 minutes ago, Littlekenny.4196 said:

The thief locks you in combat and get multiple attempts against you by stealthing and resetting.

You have to be paying attention and trying to predict where they will move and when they will attack while they just move out of the red circles if you predict correctly which is a big imbalance of focus and skill requirements.

 

There are cele builds which are stronger and just as easy to play but at least they don't waste your time and when you're gonna kill them they die. It also helps to be able to see what you're fighting to learn what they are doing and to know if they are trying to escape or staying to fight.

So you demand we nerf Thief because there is some annoying dude dancing around you and he is not able to kill you? GOT IT!     But.... you are complainining about annoying player behaviour rather than Thief...   I can do just about the same as a ministrel guard. I can just run around you all the time and dont die. Thats just about as effective as a thief that is circling around you nonstop is. He is being annoying at best. But do whe have to nerf the class because of this? NO.

Please go play Thief and tell me if its as overpowered as you make it look like. Tell me if its fun to loose almost any fair fight and the only thing you are really great at is....  NOT DYING!? IDK man.

Do you not see that if we nerf thief any more it will be a complete meme?

Edited April 8, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Littlekenny.4196]

10 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

So you demand we nerf Thief because there is some annoying dude dancing around you and he is not able to kill you? GOT IT!     But.... you are complainining about annoying player behaviour rather than Thief...   I can do just about the same as a ministrel guard. I can just run around you all the time and dont die. Thats just about as effective as a thief that is circling around you nonstop is. He is being annoying at best. But do whe have to nerf the class because of this? NO.

Please go play Thief and tell me if its as overpowered as you make it look like. Tell me if its fun to loose almost any fair fight and the only thing you are really great at is....  NOT DYING!? IDK man.

Do you not see that if we nerf thief any more it will be a complete meme?

The thief has solid potential to kill. Idk where the idea that it's impossible to kill while playing it comes from.

It's easier to kill a minstril guard, than an average skill thief, but you don't need to pay any attention to that guard cos all it's gonna do is cc you and put you in combat. It has no superspeed, leaps, teleports or damage so its not much of a problem.

 

Also I have played a roaming thief and >90% of my playtime in the past year has been on thief.

[Sahne.6950]

4 minutes ago, Littlekenny.4196 said:

The thief has solid potential to kill. Idk where the idea that it's impossible to kill while playing it comes from.

It's easier to kill a minstril guard, than an average skill thief, but you don't need to pay any attention to that guard cos all it's gonna do is cc you and put you in combat. It has no superspeed, leaps, teleports or damage so its not much of a problem.

 

Also I have played a roaming thief and >90% of my playtime in the past year has been on thief.

Fact is that: If a Thief faces a enemy player of the same skilllevel he will loose that 1v1 in 90% of the cases. Thats just how it is. FOR REAL! it is basicly impossible to win a fight against a Celestialharbinger for example. (Given the fact you are both the same skillevel.)

If Thief would be able to consistantly win 1v1s we would see 5 Thiefs vs 5 Thiefs all over PvP.

Do you really think a nerf to thief is justified?

Edited April 8, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Littlekenny.4196]

3 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Fact is that: If a Thief faces a enemy player of the same skilllevel he will loose that 1v1 in 90% of the cases. Thats just how it is. If you win more: Good job! you are a better player than your opponent.

If Thief would be able to consistantly win 1v1s we would see 5 Thiefs vs 5 Thiefs all over PvP.

Do you really think a nerf to thief is justified?

That's not fact.

WvW isn't PvP.

Every good PvP team requires a thief.

Yes I think a nerf to the stealth of a thief is justified.

Edited April 8, 2022 by Littlekenny.4196

[Sahne.6950]

9 minutes ago, Littlekenny.4196 said:

That's not fact.

WvW isn't PvP.

Every good PvP team requires a thief.

Yes I think a nerf to the stealth of a thief is justified.

this is WvW, but if thief had the capabilities to reliably win 1vs1 it would see alot more play in pvp.

Everygood team needs a thief because it can disengage and decap REALLY good. Not because it wins alot of fights on its own. Thief is a +1Decapbot at best.

You demand a hard nerf to Thief, meanwhile there is celestialbunkers roaming aroundin WvW that are literally untouchable for any thief, regardless of how good the thief is..... GOOD JOB!

we are done here.

 

Edited April 8, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Littlekenny.4196]

8 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

this is WvW, but if thief had the capabilities to reliably win 1vs1 it would see alot more play in pvp.

Everygood team needs a thief because it can disengage and decap REALLY good. Not because it wins alot of fights on its own. Thief is a +1Decapbot at best.

You demand a hard nerf to Thief, meanwhile there is celestialbunkers roaming aroundin WvW that are literally untouchable for any thief..... GOOD JOB!

we are done here.

 

And you demand a nerf to cele builds so thief's can become the literally untouchable gods of roaming again?

I think that's the way you do things with escalating a statement and with the assertion at the end.

I demand a hard nerf do I?

Edited April 8, 2022 by Littlekenny.4196

[Sahne.6950]

4 minutes ago, Littlekenny.4196 said:

And you demand a nerf to cele builds so thief's can become the literally untouchable gods of roaming?

 

I think that's the way you do things with escalating a statement and with the assertion at the end.

I demand a hard nerf do I?

i do not demand a nerf to cele, neither have i said anything that is even coming close to that.

All i have said is, that there is builds that perform on a completly diffrent level. Those builds are literally untouchable for thiefs, yet we are here discussing to nerf thiefs.

You want to limit the stealth, without giving any form of compensation to thief. thats a big nerf in my books.

 

 

Edited April 8, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[subversiontwo.7501]

35 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

i do not demand a nerf to cele, neither have i said anything that is even coming close to that.

All i have said is, that there is builds that perform on a completly diffrent level. Those builds are literally untouchable for thiefs, yet we are here discussing to nerf thiefs.

You want to limit the stealth, without giving any form of compensation to thief. thats a big nerf in my books.

I think it would help your case to snap out of the idea that this is about duels, when it is about roaming and they are two distinctly different things.

In fact, and this is perhaps a bit controversial, but duels is something that ArenaNet does not consider at all or should not consider at all for balance. It is an entirely player-made subtype of content. It's the same for GvG. There are no balance updates specifically for GvG. Instead the balance of those player-made content subtypes are just the product of overall balance of eg., ~1-5 and ~15. Even smaller scale, below a party of five, usually plays second fiddle to all content above it simply based on how the game is designed. This is why balance at 5 is usually better than balance at 1, and that is acceptable. However, unlike duels, the ~1-5 content spread is apart of the more general content subtypes that make up WvW so duels doesn't even play second fiddle.

Why bring that up? Because when you see people here complain about Thief stealth, they probably do not do it in a context of duels around alpine south camp.

Most of these things explain your sPvP tangent as well, since 5-man balance would explain why there are no Thief-only teams and the mechanics of the content helps keep the class in check similar to the unwritten rules of duelling. If you break combat in a duel it is perfectly fair for the opponent to declare victory. Any footage would be evidence of it. In roaming there is no such thing.

I've used this example in the past: Holorifle was nerfed for the same reason. It was largerly inconsequential in most forms of content but it was strong in casual roaming and it absolutely bullied younger players. That was the only reason it got nerfed and while I personally miss the build, the change was for the better of the mode.

Edited April 8, 2022 by subversiontwo.7501

[Sahne.6950]

10 minutes ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:

I think it would help your case to snap out of the idea that this is about duels, when it is about roaming and they are two distinctly different things.

In fact, and this is perhaps a bit controversial, but duels is something that ArenaNet does not consider at all or should not consider at all for balance. It is an entirely player-made subtype of content. It's the same for GvG. There are no balance updates specifically for GvG. Instead the balance of those player-made content subtypes are just the product of overall balance of eg., ~1-5 and ~15. Even smaller scale, below a party of five, usually plays second fiddle to all content above it simply based on how the game is designed. This is why balance at 5 is usually better than balance at 1, and that is acceptable. However, unlike duels, the ~1-5 content spread is apart of the more general content subtypes that make up WvW so duels doesn't even play second fiddle.

Why bring that up? Because when you see people here complain about Thief stealth, they probably do not do it in a context of duels around alpine south camp.

Most of these things explain your sPvP tangent as well, since 5-man balance would explain why there are no Thief-only teams and the mechanics of the content helps keep the class in check similar to the unwritten rules of duelling. If you break combat in a duel it is perfectly fair for the opponent to declare victory. Any footage would be evidence of it. In roaming there is no such thing.

What you are saying makes perfect sense. And i already understood that concept. But the point still stands in 5v5 and upwards. Thief is simply not overpowered or a braindead class that will carry you.

Lets see you personal opinion on it.

Do you think a nerf to thief is justified? Any type of content! Roaming,Duells,pvp,smallscale,Zerg

The only thing problematic on thief is the ability to teleport people over closed structurewalls. The overall performance of the class is right about where it should be imo.

Edited April 8, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[subversiontwo.7501]

19 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

What you are saying makes perfect sense. And i already understood that concept. But the point still stands in 5v5 and upwards. Thief is simply not overpowered or a braindead class that will carry you.

Lets see you personal opinion on it.

Do you think a nerf to thief is justified? Any type of content! Roaming,Duells,pvp,smallscale,Zerg

I'm pretty sure you have my opinion on that stated somewhere in this thread already:

• I wouldn't limit it to stealth. It is rather the escapability as a whole that presents a problem in smaller-scale roaming or how so much is baked into stealth through traits, making it even more important for the Thief.
• I think the Thief deserves a nerf to overall engagement-disengagement-reengagement capacity. I'd favour multiple smaller nerfs.
• I also think the tower and trap reveal mechanics are complete nonsense and should be replaced by reveals on utility skills.
• I also used to think that Thief as a class deserved some buffs at larger scale utility. I still think Anet blew that chance with Spectre.
• I have however revised my stance on large-scale Thief, playing it a bit more over the winter, it is not as bad at large scale as assumed.
• In fact, I'd argue that Thief in large scale is similar to its old friend the Ranger, it is mostly a victim of player-organisation decay. It could still use buffs, but it is not as bad as assumed.

Ed. Also, the more I've seen balance discussions overall on this forum over the winter, the more convinced I have become that some old vanilla balancing points that affect Thieves (such as stat holes) serves little purpose in present or future balancing. They made sense at release, much of them make no sense now. They make it harder for Anet.

 

Edited April 8, 2022 by subversiontwo.7501

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

3 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Fact is that: If a Thief faces a enemy player of the same skilllevel he will loose that 1v1 in 90% of the cases. Thats just how it is. FOR REAL! it is basicly impossible to win a fight against a Celestialharbinger for example. (Given the fact you are both the same skillevel.)

If Thief would be able to consistantly win 1v1s we would see 5 Thiefs vs 5 Thiefs all over PvP.

Do you really think a nerf to thief is justified?

Real facts:
In Duels IF the players are equally skilled (whatever builds) the build themselves dictate the outcome of fights for ALL classes to certain level of "skill". After certain threshold of skill level for both players, the outcome of fights is dictated by luck in most cases, since they're capable of utilizing their classes to the max, thus making RNG rolls on damage skills the deciding factor in reality.
In Roaming it's the same as for Duels, to some level the builds will be a deciding factor of outcomes if the fight is between equally skilled players, but after certain threshold level, there are only 2 outcomes: Teef wins, Teef runs away. 

[KeoLegend.5132]

you just run away because its so frustrating to fight against

[Chips.7968]

3 hours ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:

I'm pretty sure you have my opinion on that stated somewhere in this thread already:

• I wouldn't limit it to stealth. It is rather the escapability as a whole that presents a problem in smaller-scale roaming or how so much is baked into stealth through traits, making it even more important for the Thief.
• I think the Thief deserves a nerf to overall engagement-disengagement-reengagement capacity. I'd favour multiple smaller nerfs.
• I also think the tower and trap reveal mechanics are complete nonsense and should be replaced by reveals on utility skills.
• I also used to think that Thief as a class deserved some buffs at larger scale utility. I still think Anet blew that chance with Spectre.
• I have however revised my stance on large-scale Thief, playing it a bit more over the winter, it is not as bad at large scale as assumed.
• In fact, I'd argue that Thief in large scale is similar to its old friend the Ranger, it is mostly a victim of player-organisation decay. It could still use buffs, but it is not as bad as assumed.

Ed. Also, the more I've seen balance discussions overall on this forum over the winter, the more convinced I have become that some old vanilla balancing points that affect Thieves (such as stat holes) serves little purpose in present or future balancing. They made sense at release, much of them make no sense now. They make it harder for Anet.

 

This thread is about perma stealth, now it's about thief mobility? It's easier to address one thing only per thread. Then again, it is a HUGE thread and not read every post so maybe it's going around in circles with just new people adding their "I hate this..." to it.

But about the mobility you mention? Said many times, thief gets mobility because thief does not get stability, it does not get protection or other boons. It's mitigations *are* mobility (though we do have bandits defence if daredevil as a block). Many smaller nerfs to prevent mobility mean you'll force it into stealth even more (while obliterating  weapon set - sword), and worse still, that won't address the ability to reset the fight because... they could stealth up and move out of combat range.

You'd need a massive re-work if you nerf mobility because what would the thief be about?

Meanwhile, perma stealth can be addressed; they already do it with a reveal debuff via guards/markers etc. Make it game wide (i.e. to stealth, from any source). 

Edited April 8, 2022 by Chips.7968