So actually how vindi alter/bring new playstyle?

[Scoobaniec.9561]

Apart from ridiculous swapping legend in uhm.. legend? 3 elite spec and the swap mechanic was never really altered. In all 3 its down to swap every 10sec for dem energy gainz bro.

Are devs afraid or they have no idea what to do with rev main legend mechanic? Compare it to say as example ele. One is storing up energy for extra effects, another attunent in 2 elements at once or a thief offering brawler playstyle in daredevil, a sniper in daredevil or even newest one bringing them shroud mechanic

 

In b4 but Glint has signets, Kalla dancing clowns. Those are utility skills and outside of added/modified extra F keys the main mechanic F1 stays the same and nothing really changes in the playstyle. If you equip core legends you wont even feel much of a difference apart from losing f2 bonus energy in core.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

Yeah, that has been my single biggest complaint with Rev's elite specs as well. It just doesn't feel like a massive difference in playstyle and that leaves me consistently disappointed. The way they have now positioned the current iteration of the Alliance stance is "camp one alliance unless in emergency" which ends up not really bringing much of a difference in playstyle. It seems like they wanted to be a bit more bold with their direction this time around, but ended up kinda backing down on it, leaving it to be something that is more effective but also lacks much complexity. We have the dodge mechanic, so I guess that counts as something, but it follows ANet's questionable decisions of powercrept dodges that handicap one of the core mechanics of the entire game. I always look to Tempest and Weaver as examples of what direction I would have liked ANet to move Rev's elite specs: really leaning into the legend swapping/energy mechanics, which is the core of what makes Revenant a Revenant. Catalyst feels like the same level of inspiration as Herald/Renegade in that it feels flat and lacks depth. 

 

At the end of the day I will still play Vindicator and am actually quite eager to play new builds, but I definitely do agree with your point. 

[Knighthonor.4061]

On 1/29/2022 at 3:25 PM, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

Apart from ridiculous swapping legend in uhm.. legend? 3 elite spec and the swap mechanic was never really altered. In all 3 its down to swap every 10sec for dem energy gainz bro.

Are devs afraid or they have no idea what to do with rev main legend mechanic? Compare it to say as example ele. One is storing up energy for extra effects, another attunent in 2 elements at once or a thief offering brawler playstyle in daredevil, a sniper in daredevil or even newest one bringing them shroud mechanic

 

In b4 but Glint has signets, Kalla dancing clowns. Those are utility skills and outside of added/modified extra F keys the main mechanic F1 stays the same and nothing really changes in the playstyle. If you equip core legends you wont even feel much of a difference apart from losing f2 bonus energy in core.

The issue is Revenant has a poor core mechanic that Anet doesn't know how to alter while keeping all the core traits and abilities to work. The class would need a total revamp on how legends and energy works.

[Zaret.1450]

well i dont know much about the dificulties of changing classes but id change the whole invocation traitline and energy mecanic, 1 of all, why does waiting to get under 10 energy to swap only heta us to 75 energy? those 25 energy are almost never used, at least on pve, they could make it 100 so it would be more rewarding ( and we have a lot of skills of 40+ energy drain) then is the fact that changing legends is a decent mecanic but in every game mode you only use 2 or 3 skills of each legend, in raid shiro is only IO for example, yeah pvp forces you to use more skills but you shouldnt make an elite spec only for pvp then moreso you cant make a class made almost exclusive for pvp, solution? just create one skill more per legend, or at least for core legends, then you have more options for pvp pve wvw, and that would force anet to change the way rev skills are diatributed and thus could help with the bug of rev skills dissapearing, swaping etc etc, then is the thing about the elites, herald is all upkeeps, ok its a "new/diferent" mecanic but i think it could be like 3 skills or an upkeep mecanic skill and then have normal skills, because all upkeeps feels bad for me at least, on kalla... well i dont like it becoming a suport with just a skill and a trait and be so strong, its just a button and a trait dammit, but well at least its good so dont touch it please.

 Vinfi :Whose idea was to make a mecanic like legend swap and just copi paste but much worse in a elite? come on the whole swaping legends is pretty much a bothersome mecanic instead of something realy helpfull you have to wait 10 seconds to swap and sry but energy can be drained tooo fast toooo easy, yeah its suposed to be so you cant exploit it but come on, let us have more energy at least and make swaping more usefull, like in invocation, each swap gives you a power or healing power boon of 200, swap gets you to 75 energy by default, swaping under 10 energy increases the efect of invo traits, like if you get 250 instead of 200 power, 100 energy instead of 75 if you use a trait to give boons on swap and shiro gives 5 might it becomes 7 and things like that,  then the trait about geting fury effect x2 can stay because its good, and you have either 100% or more crit chance or double effects on swaps and it gives you more options. now back to vindi(sry for the long text XD)  instead of making a mecanic that gives you 2 legends in one and forces you to swap and becomes a hidrance(wich was the 1 beta) you can let us choose a legend and hive an f3 to change those 2 legens( the second beta) so that change i think its good and works, but again its not a new nor exciting mecanic, they could have done so we can choose skills from each of the legends and we have energy bar and an empty bar, we use energy on a legend to charge the other bar and when its fully charged we launch a exclusive attack based on the legends we use, like, for example, you have aliance and shiro, and you rotate them to charge the empty bar with both aliance legends and shiro legend energy, so filed red blue and green, and then we launch a skill with shiro arche and vicky acting together, like open a mist portal they appear from the portal and launch an attack together, a thousand times more interesting and a bilion times more fanservice than just a cpuple dialogues, they could also have made gs have diferent skills when you swap between arche and vicky, like it was the perfect oportunity to do so.

Those were my ideas  if you liked it say so if not say why not. Its lots of work i know but come on wouldnt it be awesome and a great oportunity to get more people in the game and make us stay?

[Strider.7849]

On 1/29/2022 at 12:25 PM, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

Apart from ridiculous swapping legend in uhm.. legend? 3 elite spec and the swap mechanic was never really altered. In all 3 its down to swap every 10sec for dem energy gainz bro.

Are devs afraid or they have no idea what to do with rev main legend mechanic? Compare it to say as example ele. One is storing up energy for extra effects, another attunent in 2 elements at once or a thief offering brawler playstyle in daredevil, a sniper in daredevil or even newest one bringing them shroud mechanic

 

In b4 but Glint has signets, Kalla dancing clowns. Those are utility skills and outside of added/modified extra F keys the main mechanic F1 stays the same and nothing really changes in the playstyle. If you equip core legends you wont even feel much of a difference apart from losing f2 bonus energy in core.

In my tests I found myself not needing Shiro due to the mobility given from greatsword + alliance (archemerus leap + saint Viktor + 180 turn dodge backwards + greatsword rush). I know currently many people are trying to pair Shiro with alliance (which can work) but it isn't completely necessary. I like it so far because in WvW at least, Shiro consumes way too much energy. 

 

This opens up a lot - alliance paired with dwarf can be a monster for example. Greatsword also eliminates the need for staff which is kind of garbage after the removal of damage on #5 AND it's big windup. Lots of theory crafting there. My strongest build so far has been going hybrid which I'm still refining but it was straight up crushing everyone I dueled. Haven't tested it in 1vX yet though. There's a lot of potential in it, I wouldn't knock it just yet.

[Shao.7236]

And how would you make any changes work? Revenant is extremely stiff on the design, it's not like they have much to work with. Everything ties to energy, make any change to that means changing "everything" for whatever idea they could try to implement.

 

Just to think about how miserable Revenant skills were when people could take skills away from other players, they were easily the weakest with how nothing could even flow.

 

Revenant is solid and having something that works so well won't be easily changed. If that was the case, why not make suggestions, suggestions that are balanced at least.

As far as it goes, depth with Revenant only stretches as far as you are willing to. All of the skills have some way to be chained with another for different results, even if their purpose is similar.

Edited February 11, 2022 by Shao.7236

[Scoobaniec.9561]

7 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

And how would you make any changes work? Revenant is extremely stiff on the design, it's not like they have much to work with. Everything ties to energy, make any change to that means changing "everything" for whatever idea they could try to implement.

 

Just to think about how miserable Revenant skills were when people could take skills away from other players, they were easily the weakest with how nothing could even flow.

 

Revenant is solid and having something that works so well won't be easily changed. If that was the case, why not make suggestions, suggestions that are balanced at least.

As far as it goes, depth with Revenant only stretches as far as you are willing to. All of the skills have some way to be chained with another for different results, even if their purpose is similar.

Elite specs were meant to bring in new playstyle and alter mechanics. They can do it for other classes so why not for rev. Its not my job to suggest something as i am not gw2 skill designer, just a customer so i expect them to come up with something. I actually got lots of ideas as i am also in process of writing my own game but why bother when they never listen to any suggestions? Actually maybe they do cuz they stole lots of ideas from warrior sub and brought them to diff classes... 

 

For time being they cant be even bothered to fix mace 2 animamation for near 3 yrs now. A starter weapon for rev. Lets not even mention CoR or UA hitting map objects. Also let me tell u that fixing mace 2 animation is a matter of deleting few frames off the animation... it shows pure disgusting laziness on their part

 

"Just to think about how miserable Revenant skills were when people could take skills away from other players, they were easily the weakest with how nothing could even flow."

 

Also honestly idk what u talk about here. Im confused

Edited February 11, 2022 by Scoobaniec.9561

[Obtena.7952]

Here is the problem ... people not experiencing 'different flavours' for especs doesn't mean they don't meet Anet's criteria for what that is. In otherwords, it doesn't matter if some individuals don't see or experience the difference. That doesn't mean it's not there. 

Personally, I think Vindi does make a different flavour, since attacks based on the dodge mechanic are seldom part of class design. Sure, the difference is not as significant as other especs for other classes, but it is different and it will make people play differently to get the most from the spec.

Edited February 12, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Raiken.1476]

Due to the legend swap profession mechanic, the best a Revenant spec can get is half core. As for the Alliance, it doesn't really play that much like Core Revenant because of the lack of DPS upkeeps and more like a mix of Renegade and Daredevil, using set energy cost skills and dodges to do its damage. It's about as much variety as the Revenant can get because the energy and legend mechanics are incredibly restrictive in terms of gameplay design.

[Shao.7236]

16 hours ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

"Just to think about how miserable Revenant skills were when people could take skills away from other players, they were easily the weakest with how nothing could even flow."

 

Also honestly idk what u talk about here. Im confused

There was an event at some point where you could "steal" skills from other players and the Revenant skills had cooldowns based on energy as seconds, it was so bad. That's what I mean.

 

Quote

Elite specs were meant to bring in new playstyle and alter mechanics. They can do it for other classes so why not for rev. Its not my job to suggest something as i am not gw2 skill designer, just a customer so i expect them to come up with something. I actually got lots of ideas as i am also in process of writing my own game but why bother when they never listen to any suggestions? Actually maybe they do cuz they stole lots of ideas from warrior sub and brought them to diff classes... 

 

For time being they cant be even bothered to fix mace 2 animamation for near 3 yrs now. A starter weapon for rev. Lets not even mention CoR or UA hitting map objects. Also let me tell u that fixing mace 2 animation is a matter of deleting few frames off the animation... it shows pure disgusting laziness on their part

I do realize that so far it's only being utility mechanic changes and button additions to Revenant which is why most feel underwhelmed. However I am genuinely curious of what people can suggest because I find it difficult myself to alter the core mechanic of the profession, the energy system seems already difficult to change without introducing game breaking bugs.

 

Given how little Revenant has already, yes it is fairly insulting that they haven't bothered to fix many visual and mechanical bugs.

[Scoobaniec.9561]

7 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

There was an event at some point where you could "steal" skills from other players and the Revenant skills had cooldowns based on energy as seconds, it was so bad. That's what I mean.

 

I do realize that so far it's only being utility mechanic changes and button additions to Revenant which is why most feel underwhelmed. However I am genuinely curious of what people can suggest because I find it difficult myself to alter the core mechanic of the profession, the energy system seems already difficult to change without introducing game breaking bugs.

 

Given how little Revenant has already, yes it is fairly insulting that they haven't bothered to fix many visual and mechanical bugs.

That event sounds like a coding nightmare.. anyway

 

On top of my head without deeply thinking about it;

 

rev in elite could tap into the mist powers itself rather than legends. Remove legend swap and give customable utility skills from legends. Obviously half the cd of heal skills and to make up for the lack of legend swap allow energy to recharge twice as fast/add mechanics that would help generate energy. That alone greatly alter the playstyle and rev as whole  - regardless of someone liking it or not here. There are plenty of options i could think of about the 'stiff' design but like i said im not gw2 designer and if they cant come up with something maybe its time to step down?

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

On 2/11/2022 at 9:29 AM, Strider.7849 said:

In my tests I found myself not needing Shiro due to the mobility given from greatsword + alliance (archemerus leap + saint Viktor + 180 turn dodge backwards + greatsword rush). I know currently many people are trying to pair Shiro with alliance (which can work) but it isn't completely necessary. I like it so far because in WvW at least, Shiro consumes way too much energy. 

 

This opens up a lot - alliance paired with dwarf can be a monster for example. Greatsword also eliminates the need for staff which is kind of garbage after the removal of damage on #5 AND it's big windup. Lots of theory crafting there. My strongest build so far has been going hybrid which I'm still refining but it was straight up crushing everyone I dueled. Haven't tested it in 1vX yet though. There's a lot of potential in it, I wouldn't knock it just yet.

I’m interested in the hybrid build you’ve got.  Would you mind sharing?

[Yasai.3549]

That has long been a massive issue with Revenant as a class as well as how their Especs were designed: 
Instead of providing the Revenant with altered mechanics and a new skill set, they went ahead and baked all the power of the Especs right into the skillset/weapon and only much later added Ancient Echo to core as a "reverse drawback" (oh my god I had a good chuckle just typing this) 

I think the only thing Vindi gives is er.... dodging? 

If it were up to me, I would have their entire Energy system altered for each Espec as their main draw. 

 

Herald : Upkeeps no longer drain energy, but "reserve" a portion of your energy bar instead. This means you can now choose to reserve a set amount of your Energy bar while leaving the rest for skill casting. Of course the drawback to this is if you un-reserve the upkeep energy, it's counted as empty, and as such you are also locked out from all Elites besides Glint while upkeeping more than 50% of your Energy

Renegade : Start with 100% Energy and on swap, and be able to gain Energy by attacking. Natural Energy Regen disabled. 

Edited February 13, 2022 by Yasai.3549

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

5 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

That has long been a massive issue with Revenant as a class as well as how their Especs were designed: 
Instead of providing the Revenant with altered mechanics and a new skill set, they went ahead and baked all the power of the Especs right into the skillset/weapon and only much later added Ancient Echo to core as a "reverse drawback" (oh my god I had a good chuckle just typing this) 

I think the only thing Vindi gives is er.... dodging? 

If it were up to me, I would have their entire Energy system altered for each Espec as their main draw. 

 

Herald : Upkeeps no longer drain energy, but "reserve" a portion of your energy bar instead. This means you can now choose to reserve a set amount of your Energy bar while leaving the rest for skill casting. Of course the drawback to this is if you un-reserve the upkeep energy, it's counted as empty, and as such you are also locked out from all Elites besides Glint while upkeeping more than 50% of your Energy

Renegade : Start with 100% Energy and on swap, and be able to gain Energy by attacking. Natural Energy Regen disabled. 

Well technically Vindi gives the endo regen/alliance swap skill too. If you use Alliance, it’s like you have 3 Legends instead of just two and it does change the way you play a bit.  I see where your going, but I guess it’s how you look at it too. 

[Scoobaniec.9561]

2 hours ago, Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

Well technically Vindi gives the endo regen/alliance swap skill too. If you use Alliance, it’s like you have 3 Legends instead of just two and it does change the way you play a bit.  I see where your going, but I guess it’s how you look at it too. 

If you dont equip Alliance then only thing u get off elite spec is changed dodge and dead f3 button -horrible bandaid design which gonna bite kitten in near future with nerfs. Just like weapon swap did for rev

 

[Shao.7236]

8 minutes ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

If you dont equip Alliance then only thing u get off elite spec is changed dodge and dead f3 button -horrible bandaid design which gonna bite kitten in near future with nerfs. Just like weapon swap did for rev

 

Alliances is honestly a higher risk/reward type of deal if you go core legends, it does have a greater burst/support potential for an evade less that last somewhat longer. Sure it ain't much of something too new but it's still something. It was obvious from the very start that elites will always borrow designs from other specs to spice up the stuff more. There is good and bad side effects to it, but taking it as it is, there still fun to be had.

 

I don't think they're trying to neglect Revenant either, it's just a struggle from the very start to make anything work.

 

Not to avoid the question but I do like some of the ideas suggested, it's only a matter of is it even possibly doable in due time without breaking anything. All of it reminds me of that one time duration when legend swapping wasn't even possible in mid air for a few times, the worst times to be a Revenant really.

Edited February 13, 2022 by Shao.7236

[Scoobaniec.9561]

17 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

 

 

Not to avoid the question but I do like some of the ideas suggested, it's only a matter of is it even possibly doable in due time without breaking anything. All of it reminds me of that one time duration when legend swapping wasn't even possible in mid air for a few times, the worst times to be a Revenant really.

Only a dev can answer on that question. If we talk about my idea technically they do have a code in place for removing weapon swap so it should be just matter of adjusting it to legend swap and changing some values+altering slighty ui to reflect more energy pip regen. From now to release it shouldnt be an issue. But like u mention the mid swap in air and we all know how templates work well for rev its hard to say what spaghetti code there is without reverse engineering.

 

Starting from 100% energy and gaining energy on attacks should be easy to do. Reversing energy could take a while to develop bc i dont recall any existing mechanic for it as of now which means writing completely new code and lots of testing how it interfere with game. Take all of it with grain of salt cuz im programming newb who got into it recently and theres lots to learn for me still.

 

Im most likely gonna buy expac, play my immortal core torment bot for the story and quit after anyway. I wanted gs for rev but.. not like this. Bland, uninspired, reused animations and same goes for Alliance. Big meh. Guess i should have sticked to gs/pewpew ranger, necro or guard.

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

If you dont equip Alliance then only thing u get off elite spec is changed dodge and dead f3 button -horrible bandaid design which gonna bite kitten in near future with nerfs. Just like weapon swap did for rev

 

Not sure why you would actually NOT use Alliance legends if you did choose the traitline though so ... sure, of course it's pretty crap if you take the trait but not the legend. 

[Buran.3796]

5 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Not sure why you would actually NOT use Alliance legends if you did choose the traitline though so ... sure, of course it's pretty crap if you take the trait but not the legend. 

  I guess to use the greatsword. The same as Renegade in PvP: you take what works (the shortbow) and ditch what is usless (Kalla).

  Not sure in PvE, but in PvP i doubt Vindicator/greatsword will have any use, tho. Compared to power Herald or Renegade the Vindicator entirely lacks sustain and you have no cc integrated in the weapon as the short bow to land your burst.

[Scoobaniec.9561]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Not sure why you would actually NOT use Alliance legends if you did choose the traitline though so ... sure, of course it's pretty crap if you take the trait but not the legend. 

Following ur logic reapers should pick up full bar of shouts bc i dont see why wouldnt u use new utilities when choosing reaper traitline.  

 

 

 

[Zaret.1450]

revenant overall is not a class that changes  in mecanics with its elite specs, its more like an incomplete class that you can only make full use of if you use an elite, and i hate that, the things you could call new about vindi are its movility, not that rev lacked it but now we have a legend that matches great with shiro as a high movility power dps, as for the healer its usefull because ventary isnt the most reliable healer either by itself alone, now does arche lack cc? yeah but its more of gs lackong cc than arche itself as it got a stunbreak with a stun on one skill, if for ex gs3 pulled enemies so you can hit them all and make use of sinergies it would be better, as for vicky it lacks boon suport appealing to most groups, give it a bit more/better boons and solved.

now that doesnt mean vindi will be played differently to other revs, i have an idea of a mecanic that might be good for that:

how about making it overcharge legends, like as you spend energy on a legend you fill an overcharge meter and once filled up you use f4 and unleash that charge in a skill fitting that legend, you could go further and combine legends, like arche vicky and shiro to make a huge dmg 3 way attack with the 3 canthan legends together instead of being enemies that would give a lot of room for combos rotas and would make vindi truli unique and interesting.

[Obtena.7952]

6 hours ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

Following ur logic reapers should pick up full bar of shouts bc i dont see why wouldnt u use new utilities when choosing reaper traitline.  

Sure ... and people can do that if they want to. The problem with your post here is that in case you haven't noticed, EoD specs are EXTREMELY aligned to their traits, weapons and skill family. Yes, that IS a departure for Anet in their class design philosophy and it DOES mean that optimal play with EoD specs will likely end with people making choices that result in taking spec-specific things ... but it STILL doesn't mean you must take those things if you don't want to.

It just means it's less sensible to complain when choices outside those spec-specific elements aren't 'good'. 

The takeaway is that you can still make choices and some of those choices will be optimal ... but clearly for EoD specs, those optimal choices are going to be the ones related to the spec itself. Whether someone thinks that provides a 'unique flavour' or not ... isn't that relevant; it's not a requirement for those specs to exist and allow the people that DO see the unique flavour to experience it. 

Edited February 14, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Scoobaniec.9561]

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure ... and people can do that if they want to. The problem with your post here is that in case you haven't noticed, EoD specs are EXTREMELY aligned to their traits, weapons and skill family. Yes, that IS a departure for Anet in their class design philosophy and it DOES mean that optimal play with EoD specs will likely end with people making choices that result in taking spec-specific things ... but it STILL doesn't mean you must take those things if you don't want to.

It just means it's less sensible to complain when choices outside those spec-specific elements aren't 'good'. 

Lmao. Rev cant really choose utilities. Its whole bundle or nothing. Going 5x shouts is all but optimal for reaper and it goes for all classes and even elite weps themself being subpar as well. If im not picking up Alliance for whatever reason i have f3 as dead button. Whats so hard to grasp here?

[Obtena.7952]

4 minutes ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

Lmao. Rev cant really choose utilities. Its whole bundle or nothing. Going 5x shouts is all but optimal for reaper and it goes for all classes and even elite weps themself being subpar as well. If im not picking up Alliance for whatever reason i have f3 as dead button. Whats so hard to grasp here?

That's right ... so your complaint seems more like ... you just don't like how Rev is designed, not that Vindicator isn't a 'unique flavour'. That's not a problem ... it's not even a valid complaint; Rev has ALWAYS worked this way. If you want to choose your skills, you have 8 other classes to choose from that can do EXACTLY that. Choose wisely. 

The fact is that Vindicator WILL play differently than other Rev specs because the change to how dodge works is FUNDAMENTAL to how classes generally work across the game. 

Edited February 14, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Scoobaniec.9561]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's right ... so your complaint seems more like ... you just don't like how Rev is designed, not that Vindicator isn't a 'unique flavour'. That's not a problem. If you want to choose your skills, you have 8 other classes to choose from. Choose wisely. 

??? Lmfao

So if i complain about elite spec with F skill doing absolutely nothing cuz i did not choose it utility skills it is me not liking how rev is designed?

Following that logic if reaper is not picking up 5 shout skills they shouldnt be able to go into shroud.

Rene shouldnt be able to use it f2-4 keys without Kalla utilities on bar and the list goes on and on

 

Let me tell it again. F3 in Vindi does absolutely nothing without Alliance. In what world its a good design?