"Bring the player, not the profession"-- but you REDUCED the boon cap from 10 to 5?

[The Boz.2038]

14 hours ago, Tails.9372 said:

Except it is within the context A-Net was setting. They said "Bring the player, not the profession" but there is effectively no difference in forcing either a certain profession or a certain role as both prevent the player from going after the gameplay they desire and thus the "Bring the player" part does not apply.

If you want to be afk, but the game forces you not to, does this also apply?
If you're not a team player in a team game, you're going to have a bad time.

[Zaret.1450]

3 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

Stacking more of the same classes and less room for ppl playing other "not needed boon applying rolls." That and EoD is the only means of some classes getting strong support boons and if you like any class that is out side of these 2 boons you are worst off as a player then other ppl. In a way you as a player are less wanted.

emm let me ask you something, do you realy think well have less variety with this than the non existent variety we have now?

just as example right now druid is allwais the go to healer just for spirits, rene and mirage 10 man alac and for quickness firebrand, crono and engi are more or less in the same place, now take out spirits and make 5 man alac, now a thief can alac engis too guards, heralds can also 5 man alac on healer builds(though its more dificult for them).

you could for example go crono quickness and alac and use a heal tempest, and you cover all boons and noone can cry because spirits dont exist, you can go heal herald with alac and quick catalist, or maybe alac thief with huge movility and scraper to heal and tank.

there will allwais be a meta but at least now you have much more options you can use, if youre skilled you can get in every group with your class while right now you can be awesome with, say, heal tempest or heal herald but you will find very little places where youll be wanted out of a secondary healer or a specific encounter.

[The Boz.2038]

16 minutes ago, zaswer.5246 said:

but at least now you have much more options you can use

This is precisely why I can't see the reasoning behind "5-man boons means 5-man mirror comps". X just doesn't lead into Y.

[Wintermute.5408]

19 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

You think this is a sign they intend to support endgame content?  Okay.  If you think an expansion that releases with 4 bosses in a room is supporting endgame content, I guess you can go ahead with that line of thinking. 

How is that different from previous expansion releases? W1 is 3 bosses "in a room" with an event inbetween. W6 is 4.5 bosses "in rooms". And I'm not sure if raids were even available on expansion releases - somebody refresh my memory here please.

[BobbyT.7192]

1 hour ago, Wintermute.5408 said:

How is that different from previous expansion releases? W1 is 3 bosses "in a room" with an event inbetween. W6 is 4.5 bosses "in rooms". And I'm not sure if raids were even available on expansion releases - somebody refresh my memory here please.

I know HoT wasn't, it was 3 ish month after release.

[LadyKitty.6120]

Tbh it's not even about meta on why raid peoples want a specific profession. Metas been changing between different bosses and Snowcrows usually have the current ones on their site. Speedrun meta, to be exact. Do we see that in non-static raids? Pretty much nope. Would speedrun meta even be meta for pug runs? Usually not as speedrun meta only works if people do the dps for it AND there's not a single wipe.

If there's even a single wipe, the group didn't follow the safety meta either if the wipe could've been prevented by using better support to keep people alive/ress them. If we wanted to see real safety meta, people would use traits like Parasitic Contagion, Invigorating Precision, Scrapper etc. for borderline immortality for 10-15% dps loss.

And just to tell from support mathematician's perspective, the most commonly used druid build SUCKS at healing with only warrior and chrono (which has aegis share) having worse heal output post-EoD launch with bursty nature of it making things even worse.

What druid has going for it? Spirits (byebye by summer!) and easiest way of dealing with some mechs due to certain skill combos (Entangle-immob nerf range pls, Tides+lb4 push increase cooldown pls) and traits (for ex. Stun duration increase at statues, others can use runes+sigils too). Esp. when it comes to pushing, druid doesn't have many alternatives atm due to alternatives having too long cooldown for some pushing jobs (Read: Soulless Horror). But those only apply to bosses where those specific utilities are needed.

Meanwhile firebrand will likely remain an offender to "play what you want" purely due to its excessive amounts of aegis and stability and utility combined with ability to bring quickness, fury and might at the same time. As long as aegis blocks both damage and control effect, FB's dominance is unlikely to change. Excluding aegis and stability, closest competitor to FB will actually be heal mechanist which can bring might, fury and alacrity. They both only need a dps to bring quickness/alacrity.

Among dpsers, Catalyst might be capable of doing FB's offensive boons. With others, 3 boon supports might be required to bring might, quickness and alacrity separately and knowing the community, this won't be happening.

If the healer brings just might, it'll be pretty certainly coupled with chrono. In some extremely rare cases heal chrono can bring alac+quickness with warrior/scourge/tempest/revenant bringing might but Kitty doesn't have high hopes for that unfortunately.

But ultimately, Kitty's kinda expexting for raid community to return to safe ol' druid+chrono mirror comp. Why?

1. Many raiders don't know better as not that many raid on each class (fractal on even less) and even fewer have the knowledge and understanding of classes and their synergies to create alternative compositions, thus returning to the cookiecutter they were taught. Some influential streamers also say that certain builds can't boon even though they can.

2. Not many have alternative support builds geared and there's little motivation to do so due to 1 so this far it's mostly curious people playing them regardless of years of Kitty posting videos about alternatives.

3. Alternatives rarely have the means to do the mechs that cookiecutter supports currectly do nor people are aware of how to do them even if they had the means.

Knowing the raid community, Kitty's kinda pessimistic about how things would turn out since alternatives haven't gained much ground over the years, firebrigade, boon thief (RIP 2018-2021) and heal scourge having been pretty much the only major changes and even those changes only happened due to some 10-target boons and insane carry potential of healbrand and scourge.

Sorry about yet another whiney wall of text.

[Zaret.1450]

5 minutes ago, LadyKitty.6120 said:

Tbh it's not even about meta on why raid peoples want a specific profession. Metas been changing between different bosses and Snowcrows usually have the current ones on their site. Speedrun meta, to be exact. Do we see that in non-static raids? Pretty much nope. Would speedrun meta even be meta for pug runs? Usually not as speedrun meta only works if people do the dps for it AND there's not a single wipe.

If there's even a single wipe, the group didn't follow the safety meta either if the wipe could've been prevented by using better support to keep people alive/ress them. If we wanted to see real safety meta, people would use traits like Parasitic Contagion, Invigorating Precision, Scrapper etc. for borderline immortality for 10-15% dps loss.

And just to tell from support mathematician's perspective, the most commonly used druid build SUCKS at healing with only warrior and chrono (which has aegis share) having worse heal output post-EoD launch with bursty nature of it making things even worse.

What druid has going for it? Spirits (byebye by summer!) and easiest way of dealing with some mechs due to certain skill combos (Entangle-immob nerf range pls, Tides+lb4 push increase cooldown pls) and traits (for ex. Stun duration increase at statues, others can use runes+sigils too). Esp. when it comes to pushing, druid doesn't have many alternatives atm due to alternatives having too long cooldown for some pushing jobs (Read: Soulless Horror). But those only apply to bosses where those specific utilities are needed.

Meanwhile firebrand will likely remain an offender to "play what you want" purely due to its excessive amounts of aegis and stability and utility combined with ability to bring quickness, fury and might at the same time. As long as aegis blocks both damage and control effect, FB's dominance is unlikely to change. Excluding aegis and stability, closest competitor to FB will actually be heal mechanist which can bring might, fury and alacrity. They both only need a dps to bring quickness/alacrity.

Among dpsers, Catalyst might be capable of doing FB's offensive boons. With others, 3 boon supports might be required to bring might, quickness and alacrity separately and knowing the community, this won't be happening.

If the healer brings just might, it'll be pretty certainly coupled with chrono. In some extremely rare cases heal chrono can bring alac+quickness with warrior/scourge/tempest/revenant bringing might but Kitty doesn't have high hopes for that unfortunately.

But ultimately, Kitty's kinda expexting for raid community to return to safe ol' druid+chrono mirror comp. Why?

1. Many raiders don't know better as not that many raid on each class (fractal on even less) and even fewer have the knowledge and understanding of classes and their synergies to create alternative compositions, thus returning to the cookiecutter they were taught. Some influential streamers also say that certain builds can't boon even though they can.

2. Not many have alternative support builds geared and there's little motivation to do so due to 1 so this far it's mostly curious people playing them regardless of years of Kitty posting videos about alternatives.

3. Alternatives rarely have the means to do the mechs that cookiecutter supports currectly do nor people are aware of how to do them even if they had the means.

Knowing the raid community, Kitty's kinda pessimistic about how things would turn out since alternatives haven't gained much ground over the years, firebrigade, boon thief (RIP 2018-2021) and heal scourge having been pretty much the only major changes and even those changes only happened due to some 10-target boons and insane carry potential of healbrand and scourge.

Sorry about yet another whiney wall of text.

kitty i love you but in this case i disagree, at least im optimistic this changes will bring more variety, there will allwais be people who just play meta and things like that but at least for me being able to use other classes out of rene and mirage for alac is a blessing, well have to wait and see ^^

[AliamRationem.5172]

4 hours ago, Wintermute.5408 said:

How is that different from previous expansion releases? W1 is 3 bosses "in a room" with an event inbetween. W6 is 4.5 bosses "in rooms". And I'm not sure if raids were even available on expansion releases - somebody refresh my memory here please.

Yes, and fractals are just "a few bosses in a room with a hallway between".  Your argument is disingenuous.  Strikes are literally a boss in a room.  Attempting to condense a better game mode like fractals down to that level is simply not consistent with reality.

Also, I am not justifying the mistakes of today by the mistakes of the past.  My specific complaint is that this content has never been properly supported and we're now showing every sign of doing even less.  I disagree with that and would like to hear from ANet on their plans for fractals as a game mode, specifically.  Raids are cool and I know plenty of players who love them, but this is not content I participate in and it's already been dead for years now.

[Jski.6180]

It starting to feel like we are going to get a social credit "bring the player" type of point of view for what the meta is about to become. Do not bring a quickness or alacrity class to any event may be the only way to tell anet they are messing up balancing and making bad choose by doing this with out spreading out the ability to use quickness and alacrity to all elite spec of gw2. A summer update is too long to wait for a "fix" this NEEDS to come out with EoD or your dooming a lot of players to be lesser or to have lower social credit.

[piitb.7635]

Raid comps shouldn't be decided by who beat the character select screen boss.

 

This is standard MMO flair since 2007

[Wintermute.5408]

4 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Yes, and fractals are just "a few bosses in a room with a hallway between".  Your argument is disingenuous.  Strikes are literally a boss in a room.  Attempting to condense a better game mode like fractals down to that level is simply not consistent with reality.

Also, I am not justifying the mistakes of today by the mistakes of the past.  My specific complaint is that this content has never been properly supported and we're now showing every sign of doing even less.  I disagree with that and would like to hear from ANet on their plans for fractals as a game mode, specifically.  Raids are cool and I know plenty of players who love them, but this is not content I participate in and it's already been dead for years now.

I'm not talking about fractals. Those were never tied to expansion releases anyway, we just got them at random along the way. Some of them, I'd rather not get tbh.

Strikes are positioned to replace raids. There's 4 of them - like 4 bosses in your standard raid wing. CMs are supposed to drop LIs - like normal raid bosses. There's arguably more content in it, because basic strikes will supposedly give something resembling rewards too. And CMs are even delayed on release like normal raids 🧂🧂🧂

Are you seriously going to argue that there is some value in raids outside boss encounters? Like, are gates of Ahdashim an essential part of experience? If not, then you will inavariably conclude that raid is "a bunch of boss rooms". Except chained together for extra inconvenience.

So, by that kitten logic, neither PoF nor HoT releases supported endgame content either. Yay.

Edited February 17, 2022 by Wintermute.5408

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

It starting to feel like we are going to get a social credit "bring the player" type of point of view for what the meta is about to become. Do not bring a quickness or alacrity class to any event may be the only way to tell anet they are messing up balancing and making bad choose by doing this with out spreading out the ability to use quickness and alacrity to all elite spec of gw2. A summer update is too long to wait for a "fix" this NEEDS to come out with EoD or your dooming a lot of players to be lesser or to have lower social credit.

Actually, if you were to promote this line of thinking, you would be promoting EXACTLY how this game is intended to be played in the first place. I'm sure Anet will not have a problem with it; I don't think they care if you play Alacrity or Quickness builds if you don't want to. Those things aren't necessary to complete content successfully.

How ironic when players suggest avoiding playing something because it has a role which would ultimately result in people playing the game how it's intended. Yeah ... you got them RIGHT where you want them 😉

Edited February 17, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Puck.3697]

On 2/16/2022 at 9:24 AM, The Boz.2038 said:

I am very much 100% sure this is not true.
GW2 is one of the very, very few MMOs on the market that even allows you to play different roles and specs as each class, and is an example of one of the better balanced "metas" around.

your correct. however im talking Proffession to Proffession balancing and Not variety

In WoW there a 6?? % disparity in DPS Between Classes (ofcourse if we wanna play specific Speccs it falls larger then this) now jump to gw2. and Lets talk Guardian Vs Elementalist in PvE.

Lets talk Necromancer v Warrior in SPvP.

the "Illusion of choice" is heavily clouded by the simple disparity that exists between proffessions filling the same role, this would be like saying Alacmirage is on par with Renegade excluding a few niches.. its simply very untrue.

 

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

22 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

This is precisely why I can't see the reasoning behind "5-man boons means 5-man mirror comps". X just doesn't lead into Y.

There's historical precedent here.  Anet experimented with 5-man boons in the past, and it lead to a mirror comp.  All 10-man squads will become 5-man squads who play next to each other.  Because of this, each 5-man squad needs to be wholly self-sufficient in healing and buffing itself.  They'll need two banners instead of one, two alacrity bots instead of one, and two might stackers instead of one.  Whereas there were previously 6-7 roles that could be filled by just about anything on a squad, it could be as low as 4 or 3 in EoD.  Giving more professions access to quickness and alacrity doesn't necessarily resolve the mirror comp issue.  Each of these professions has a smattering of different boons.  Picking one alac and one quickness at random won't necessarily give good boon coverage.  Also, there's many mechanical considerations that need to be taken care of which will narrow perspective roles down to 2, maybe even just 1 profession to handle it.

The end result could look something like this:

1. Most Efficient Quickness (TankHeal or support)
2. Most Efficient Alacrity (TankHeal or support)
3. Guardian to fill all of the missing holes
4. DPS who fulfills mechanics
5. DPS

With team two being the almost the exact same thing, except no tank and an extra DPS space.  

[The Boz.2038]

27 minutes ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Anet experimented with 5-man boons in the past, and it lead to a mirror comp.

...because guardian and mesmer were the only ones that could provide the needed boons. Want quickness? Mesmer. Want alacrity? Also mesmer. Want stability? Guardian. Want aegis? Also guardian. Fill the rest of the squad with whatever works best with whatever the rest of the first two-three bring to the table.

The game has expanded access to quickness and alacrity greatly since then. Even more now with EoD. 

"Two alacrity bots instead of one" wouldn't make it a mirror comp. Two Alacrens with the same setup, yes, if the rest of the team is also the same. But you take an alacren for the CC and damage, and an alacranist for the barriers and support, and bam, the difference between those two roles already exclude the possibility for a mirror, because team 1 still needs support, and team 2 still needs more damage.

Edited February 18, 2022 by The Boz.2038

[Jski.6180]

49 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

...because guardian and mesmer were the only ones that could provide the needed boons. Want quickness? Mesmer. Want alacrity? Also mesmer. Want stability? Guardian. Want aegis? Also guardian. Fill the rest of the squad with whatever works best with whatever the rest of the first two-three bring to the table.

The game has expanded access to quickness and alacrity greatly since then. Even more now with EoD. 

"Two alacrity bots instead of one" wouldn't make it a mirror comp. Two Alacrens with the same setup, yes, if the rest of the team is also the same. But you take an alacren for the CC and damage, and an alacranist for the barriers and support, and bam, the difference between those two roles already exclude the possibility for a mirror, because team 1 still needs support, and team 2 still needs more damage.

Expanded access to quickness and alacrity with EoD only classes for a lot of the current classes we have. Its a real balancing problem. Like what anet is giving you this time or DONT play with other ppl in a real way (more or less just be carried by other ppl).

This balancing anet is doing for EoD is a complete mess with out doing real updates to all of the elite spec. and yes its wrong for anet to nerf all of the 10 target effects because they are non EoD classes effectively doing what they do for every new expansion nerf the old classes so the new classes are better.

Catalyst is trash and tempest is getting nerfed (as far as we know but no info but vage 10 target nerf). If your an ele player you are worst as a player if you dont play the right class of ele. Bring the EoD class not the player.

[Obtena.7952]

15 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

your correct. however im talking Proffession to Proffession balancing and Not variety

In WoW there a 6?? % disparity in DPS Between Classes (ofcourse if we wanna play specific Speccs it falls larger then this) now jump to gw2. and Lets talk Guardian Vs Elementalist in PvE.

Lets talk Necromancer v Warrior in SPvP.

the "Illusion of choice" is heavily clouded by the simple disparity that exists between proffessions filling the same role, this would be like saying Alacmirage is on par with Renegade excluding a few niches.. its simply very untrue.

 

Ladies and Gentlemen, this is the result of the meta think that infects this game; the belief that choice is an illusion because someone else has something that is more than you got. 

There is no 'illusion' of choice here. The reason this 'highest DPS balancing' thinking is invalid is because other criteria are completely relevant in this game to allow players to choose things they want to play to succeed. Even if choices aren't 'equal',  you still play how you want.

Edited February 18, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[AlexndrTheGreat.8310]

9 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

Catalyst is trash and tempest is getting nerfed (as far as we know but no info but vage 10 target nerf). If your an ele player you are worst as a player if you dont play the right class of ele. Bring the EoD class not the player

You’re making it sound like people are being forced to play Catalyst and that Tempest isn’t a thing anymore?

The two elites fill completely different roles. Both specs do DPS, but Tempest DPS is not getting nerfed going into the next expansion. DPS will have nothing to do with the 10 target nerfs.

Support Tempest is getting reduced to 5 targets as well as all the other supports, but Tempest and Catalyst are not interchangeable. You can bring Tempest as a healer and you can bring Catalyst as a quickness support. You would never bring a Catalyst as a healer, so it will never step all over Tempest in that regard.

Catalyst existing is irrelevant to the fact that Tempest is getting its target cap reduced to 10.

If what you’re saying is that Tempest should have quickness instead, you’re going to be reaching a point where the first 2 sets of elite specs released will be the only two that would need to exist. If Tempest had quickness, any elite spec afterward that also had quickness would be redundant and they would be interchangeable with each other. That’s not what is happening.

10 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

This balancing anet is doing for EoD is a complete mess with out doing real updates to all of the elite spec. and yes its wrong for anet to nerf all of the 10 target effects because they are non EoD classes effectively doing what they do for every new expansion nerf the old classes so the new classes are better.

EoD classes are already 5 man, they’re not like, gutting the old specs down to 5 man and leaving the new ones at 10. Everything across the board will simply be the same because Anet realized that having 10 target caps isn’t the way they want support to go.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

On 2/16/2022 at 11:15 AM, Daddy.8125 said:

Problem is they aren't. Guardians have the monopoly on both aegis and stability. Because they don't hand them out to other proffessions enough. 

This, and despite the value of quickness and alacrity, it is stability and blocks (and reflects) that allow even below-average players to skip most mechanics.

There's a reason strikes are so godawful easy compared to (non-CM) raids. It's because a single healbrand or hybridbrand can essentially carry the entire squad. I am, more often than not, this firebrand, lol. Sure, it feels (sorta) satisfying for the guardian player - but what about the others?

Edited February 18, 2022 by NorthernRedStar.3054

[Jski.6180]

Just now, AlexndrTheGreat.8310 said:

You’re making it sound like people are being forced to play Catalyst and that Tempest isn’t a thing anymore?

The two elites fill completely different roles. Both specs do DPS, but Tempest DPS is not getting nerfed going into the next expansion. DPS will have nothing to do with the 10 target nerfs.

Support Tempest is getting reduced to 5 targets as well as all the other supports, but Tempest and Catalyst are not interchangeable. You can bring Tempest as a healer and you can bring Catalyst as a quickness support. You would never bring a Catalyst as a healer, so it will never step all over Tempest in that regard.

Catalyst existing is irrelevant to the fact that Tempest is getting its target cap reduced to 10.

If what you’re saying is that Tempest should have quickness instead, you’re going to be reaching a point where the first 2 sets of elite specs released will be the only two that would need to exist. If Tempest had quickness, any elite spec afterward that also had quickness would be redundant and they would be interchangeable with each other. That’s not what is happening.

EoD classes are already 5 man, they’re not like, gutting the old specs down to 5 man and leaving the new ones at 10. Everything across the board will simply be the same because Anet realized that having 10 target caps isn’t the way they want support to go.

Sadly with the new expanded quickness and alacrity boon player not the class requirement YES i am saying catalyst is being forced on ele players. And with the 10 target nerf that could be coming to tempest it makes it all the worst. Tempest is losing its 10 target aggressive side as well as support side at the same time catalyst dose more dmg though orbs vs the same targets that tempest would be doing "good dmg" vs.

But tempest and scraper (any eng who can use med kit) are very much interchangeable. The passive effect of auras are not worth it and the stander boons ele must work hard to apply are not worth it. For classes that heal for the same amount AND come with a player not the class requirement boon.

Tempest should have alacrity that "seems" to be the point of balancing atm aggressive classes get quickness support def classes get alacrity. Why dose scraper have quickness why dose FB have quickness why dose gun necro have quickness? These classes can stand with out this boon because of there other boons and effects but for some reason only catalyst only gets a "low duration" quickness for one atument F5 effect that is only JUST perma if you go all in. How are we "ok" with the support class of ele getting the same boon effects as core ele weaver and soon to be catalyses (with a few more boons because why not give the non support class more support boons)?

You got this wrong they are nerfing the non EoD classes to bring them down to the expansion level to sell the expansion classes they did this with hot and pof. This has nothing to do with there bring the player who has the right classes over the classes balancing they talk about NOW. Even the EoD classes all do much more dps then pof that is saying a LOT.

What tempest going to get other then a -50% healing out put for its troubles? THAT is what wrong with anet they just nerf the ele classes or the given victim of there new point of view with out ANY disregard for that classes balancing and only act as if that class MUST be played in the new just added way.

You must tell me is tempest doing too much healing to 10 targets are the boons too powerful that its out putting to 10 targets. Tempest has fallen far out of pvp and pve meta and only had 10 target (lost in wvw already and no one runs it in a real way the player is no longer wanted when your on tempest) as its "roll" of an class and now that going away for what? At least rengard has alacrity and FB has quickness. Its a massive view on just how toxic gw2 community has become when you cant see past the classes that "have theirs" and the classes that dont yet asking for it are pushed to a meme level. Anet has made this game and the player base VERY toxic for asking for buffs for classes missing effects out right.

[AlexndrTheGreat.8310]

21 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Sadly with the new expanded quickness and alacrity boon player not the class requirement YES i am saying catalyst is being forced on ele players.

No one is forcing you to play Catalyst. You can spend your entire lifetime playing this game and never had to play Catalyst. People will not magically start saying "you can only come to our group if you play Catalyst". They can ask for a *quickness* class/role, and thus someone who enjoys Ele and always wanted it to have more roles can join as a Catalyst to provide quickness, but people will probably not go out looking for Catalyst specifically and deny anyone who dares want to play Tempest *because they do different thing*. Guardian players can still play CFirebrand or Dragonhunter, despite having Quickbrand.

Ele for example still has Weaver.

25 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

And with the 10 target nerf that could be coming to tempest it makes it all the worst. Tempest is losing its 10 target aggressive side as well as support side at the same time catalyst dose more dmg though orbs vs the same targets that tempest would be doing "good dmg" vs.

 All the skills that affect 10 targets are either support skills or some time of CC / Area negation (Line of Warding, etc). Damage skills. expect for an immensely small amount of exceptions, like Fiery Greatsword, do not affect 10 targets. The reduction of targets from 10 to 5 is irrelevant in the case of Tempest dps. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Number_of_Targets/10

36 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

But tempest and scraper (any eng who can use med kit) are very much interchangeable. The passive effect of auras are not worth it and the stander boons ele must work hard to apply are not worth it. For classes that heal for the same amount AND come with a player not the class requirement boon.

Tempest doesn't bring quickness, yea, but it can also do some important things that Heal Scrapper can't do. Scrapper can't maintain 25 man might for his squad, which is just as important as providing quickness. No one cares about passive affects of auras, yea, but the synergy Tempest has with applying auras is what makes it so easy to work with. Tempest can solo maintain every other important boon (might, fury, prot, vigor, swiftness, regen) extremely easily, the only issue it has is as said, no quickness or alacrity, and ramping up to 25 might takes a bit of time. As it is now, Tempest is essentially interchangeable with Druid and despite not having spirits for dps increases, it is unbelievably more safe than using a Druid. The biggest downsides for Tempest is its lack of an answer for literally every mechanic like Druid has (ie, no knockbacks, cant Entangle things, etc).

47 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

You got this wrong they are nerfing the non EoD classes to bring them down to the expansion level to sell the expansion classes they did this with hot and pof. This has nothing to do with there bring the player who has the right classes over the classes balancing they talk about NOW. Even the EoD classes all do much more dps then pof that is saying a LOT.

We can't say for certain if its actually going to be nerfed or not, because all that has been confirmed is:
-Target cap is being reduced from 10 to 5 for all classes.
-Firebrand, Scourge, and Renegade are confirmed to be getting nerfed.
-Banners and Spirits are being reworked to fit the boon system instead of providing unique buffs.

-The EoD classes are also not even set in stone. They are basically guaranteed to still have changes coming when the expansion launches.

Anything outside of these points are pure speculation.

Only some of the EoD classes are beating their current PoF and HoT specs in benchmarks as of the last beta. Harbinger got nerfed down to below Scourge (is basically guaranteed to change though, both Harbinger and Scourge), Catalyst had a super high benchmark that everyone knows is going to get nerfed, Untamed and Vindicator dps don't exist in PvE, Virtuoso is on par with Chrono in power.

57 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

What tempest going to get other then a -50% healing out put for its troubles? THAT is what wrong with anet they just nerf the ele classes or the given victim of there new point of view with out ANY disregard for that classes balancing and only act as if that class MUST be played in the new just added way.

Again, these changes are independent of Ele, it's for every class. Tempest will still heal the exact same amount for 5 people and will continue to maintain 6 boons on them. And again, the existence of Catalyst does nothing to subtract away from Tempest. If you want to play Tempest, you will still be able to do just as well as you were before. Ele having access to Quickness does not magically make people not want to take Ele in other roles anymore. People did not stop taking Dragonhunters once Firebrand was released. Ranger's will not magically all become Untamed mains just because a new expansion is dropping.

1 hour ago, Jski.6180 said:

You must tell me is tempest doing too much healing to 10 targets are the boons too powerful that its out putting to 10 targets.

This change is independent of Tempest. Druid, the poster-boy for raid healing, is also getting reduced to 5 man. Renegade and Mirage will not be applying 10 man alac. Etc...

1 hour ago, Jski.6180 said:

Tempest has fallen far out of pvp and pve meta and only had 10 target

(Can't speak on PvP and this target cap change stuff seems to primarily be directed at PvE from what I can see).

And as said above, Tempest is better at Druid in so many ways (significantly more personal dps, better healing, group save button with Rebound, making it infinitely more safe than using a Druid as your healer) and is only considered worse than Druid because it doesn't have spirits and can't answer literally every mechanic that exists (knockbacks, immobs, etc).

1 hour ago, Jski.6180 said:

(lost in wvw already and no one runs it in a real way the player is no longer wanted when your on tempest)

Tempest is still a great support in WvW, its just worse than Scrapper because condi conversion is better than cleanse, and Tempest doesn't have access to stealth. If you want to play Tempest in WvW you will still be a phenomenal support and be more than capable of fulfilling your role.

1 hour ago, Jski.6180 said:

as its "roll" of an class and now that going away for what?

Bolded point above again.

1 hour ago, Jski.6180 said:

At least rengard has alacrity and FB has quickness. Its a massive view on just how toxic gw2 community has become when you cant see past the classes that "have theirs" and the classes that dont yet asking for it are pushed to a meme level. Anet has made this game and the player base VERY toxic for asking for buffs for classes missing effects out right.

More classes having access to more roles in PvE is nothing but a good thing. There are a multitude of people who I am sure would want to play a, for example, alacrity role, but absolutely despise the way that Mirage and Revenant play. If their main that they really enjoy and play many different aspects of it is able to finally do that, they can now finally do more things with their class. The fact that they get access to that boon does not take away from the fact that they can still do what they were previously able to do.

[Jski.6180]

32 minutes ago, AlexndrTheGreat.8310 said:

No one is forcing you to play Catalyst. You can spend your entire lifetime playing this game and never had to play Catalyst. People will not magically start saying "you can only come to our group if you play Catalyst". They can ask for a *quickness* class/role, and thus someone who enjoys Ele and always wanted it to have more roles can join as a Catalyst to provide quickness, but people will probably not go out looking for Catalyst specifically and deny anyone who dares want to play Tempest *because they do different thing*. Guardian players can still play CFirebrand or Dragonhunter, despite having Quickbrand.

Ele for example still has Weaver.

 All the skills that affect 10 targets are either support skills or some time of CC / Area negation (Line of Warding, etc). Damage skills. expect for an immensely small amount of exceptions, like Fiery Greatsword, do not affect 10 targets. The reduction of targets from 10 to 5 is irrelevant in the case of Tempest dps. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Number_of_Targets/10

Tempest doesn't bring quickness, yea, but it can also do some important things that Heal Scrapper can't do. Scrapper can't maintain 25 man might for his squad, which is just as important as providing quickness. No one cares about passive affects of auras, yea, but the synergy Tempest has with applying auras is what makes it so easy to work with. Tempest can solo maintain every other important boon (might, fury, prot, vigor, swiftness, regen) extremely easily, the only issue it has is as said, no quickness or alacrity, and ramping up to 25 might takes a bit of time. As it is now, Tempest is essentially interchangeable with Druid and despite not having spirits for dps increases, it is unbelievably more safe than using a Druid. The biggest downsides for Tempest is its lack of an answer for literally every mechanic like Druid has (ie, no knockbacks, cant Entangle things, etc).

We can't say for certain if its actually going to be nerfed or not, because all that has been confirmed is:
-Target cap is being reduced from 10 to 5 for all classes.
-Firebrand, Scourge, and Renegade are confirmed to be getting nerfed.
-Banners and Spirits are being reworked to fit the boon system instead of providing unique buffs.

-The EoD classes are also not even set in stone. They are basically guaranteed to still have changes coming when the expansion launches.

Anything outside of these points are pure speculation.

Only some of the EoD classes are beating their current PoF and HoT specs in benchmarks as of the last beta. Harbinger got nerfed down to below Scourge (is basically guaranteed to change though, both Harbinger and Scourge), Catalyst had a super high benchmark that everyone knows is going to get nerfed, Untamed and Vindicator dps don't exist in PvE, Virtuoso is on par with Chrono in power.

Again, these changes are independent of Ele, it's for every class. Tempest will still heal the exact same amount for 5 people and will continue to maintain 6 boons on them. And again, the existence of Catalyst does nothing to subtract away from Tempest. If you want to play Tempest, you will still be able to do just as well as you were before. Ele having access to Quickness does not magically make people not want to take Ele in other roles anymore. People did not stop taking Dragonhunters once Firebrand was released. Ranger's will not magically all become Untamed mains just because a new expansion is dropping.

This change is independent of Tempest. Druid, the poster-boy for raid healing, is also getting reduced to 5 man. Renegade and Mirage will not be applying 10 man alac. Etc...

(Can't speak on PvP and this target cap change stuff seems to primarily be directed at PvE from what I can see).

And as said above, Tempest is better at Druid in so many ways (significantly more personal dps, better healing, group save button with Rebound, making it infinitely more safe than using a Druid as your healer) and is only considered worse than Druid because it doesn't have spirits and can't answer literally every mechanic that exists (knockbacks, immobs, etc).

Tempest is still a great support in WvW, its just worse than Scrapper because condi conversion is better than cleanse, and Tempest doesn't have access to stealth. If you want to play Tempest in WvW you will still be a phenomenal support and be more than capable of fulfilling your role.

Bolded point above again.

More classes having access to more roles in PvE is nothing but a good thing. There are a multitude of people who I am sure would want to play a, for example, alacrity role, but absolutely despise the way that Mirage and Revenant play. If their main that they really enjoy and play many different aspects of it is able to finally do that, they can now finally do more things with their class. The fact that they get access to that boon does not take away from the fact that they can still do what they were previously able to do.

In the life time of the game ele has been nerfed in nearly every update and the updates that have been buffs where often lead up to nerfs. We are at another nerf update question is why? The game it self is shifting to you MUST bring one of these 2 boons or your worst off as a player anet NEEDS to add in these boons to all classes eleit spec and NOT just the EoD. Simply put the game has changed ALOT and giving out the same boons that core weaver and catalyses (with its added boons) is not good enofe any more. In a lot of ways tempest dose it worst then Catalyses having to wait for overlaods to give boons is far worst then simply hitting an F5 at a ranged with no cast time to the point of not interrupting a channel skill. Now that shouts are going to 5 target its makes tempest far worst as an support classes for its "roll" of being THE healing class of gw2.

Weaver dose not give support quickness like gun necro yet gun necro and realty all eod classes do more dmg then weaver.

Aggressive 10 target skills mean nothing vs 1 set pices boss fight.

Anet is not trust worthy to nerf there EoD classes that you "hope" will happen but have no hard facts it will (even with hard facts anet may not do what they say in the right way).

Tempest losing 10 targets support is a nerf it was a class destroying nerf in wvw and it will be a class destroying nerf in pve. We must take anet at there word all be it a very un trustful word as we have no other means of info from the black box that anet has become.

Just wait classes are going to be drooped like they where in the move from HoT to PoF. Getting a head of it now is very much worst doing.

Do you think dose any one think tempest was an broken healer in pve or even wvw? If so why? If not why is it getting nerfed?

Scraper has more condi clears and stronger condi clears though boon conversion Kits realty push what scraper can do as an support class even light fields is a massive boon for scraper clear support. All that on-top of faster cast support skills because its giving it self quickness as well as its team. It even give alacrity every now and agen because anet hates balancing (boon conversion for strong boons is just silly broken). Scraper even has a stealth field something anet went out of there way to not give catalyses. Scraper even has the ability to reveal something ALL of ele is missing its a real big over sight for pvp balancing.

The level of sillyness of just how bad the balancing is and how badly non EoD classes are being treated makes EoD as an expansion one of the most destructive to the game over all. Anet needs to fix this and clearly say what is going on BEFORE the expansion comes out OR they need to delay the expansion.

Bring the complacent player, not the nerfed classes.

Added note i dont react to things i respond to so do not look at me for the reactions your getting i like to use words that mean things. I find the emote making the community very toxic. GW2 is for sure being destroyed by anet new monthly views on balancing there game. The player base toxicity to other players is just an side effect.

 

Edited February 18, 2022 by Jski.6180
Added thoughs.

[Omega.6801]

On 2/17/2022 at 9:52 AM, The Boz.2038 said:

This is precisely why I can't see the reasoning behind "5-man boons means 5-man mirror comps". X just doesn't lead into Y.

I totally get that with more options for alac/heal/quick, people will be technically able to play a greater variety of classes in instanced content. But If one profession will do it better, even slightly, or bring something else that is slightly more useful, why not bring two of them? The question and also the "bring class x or kick"-groups in lfg are not about the actual viability of a spec, it's about perception. And if the community percieves one spec to be the top tier choice, they will require two of them instead of one or none of it. 5-player cap incentivises the mirror-comp, even if it's more inside the players heads than in the actual numbers. Just think about builds like heal-tempest or quickness-scrapper, they are absolutely vialble choices for instanced group play, but you hardly see anyone asking for it and given the choice, people in lfg will go for a druid or hfb nine out of ten times.
Had they made everything 10-player cap and given the usual supsects of alac/heal/quick to a greater variety of classen, then we would have had an increase in varriety of specs in raids/fractals/strikes.

Edited February 19, 2022 by lokh.2695

[zallesz.1650]

My only gripe is that as an alacren I have to sacrifice all my dps, dressed in Full Diviners, I hit like a wet noodle. What does that give me currently: 10 man alac. Fair enough. 

In the future, if I sacrifice all my dps, still hit like a wet noodle because I can only cover 100 alac uptime in full diviner, and can only give alc to 5 man.... that's not cool. Then change the Grandmaster Trait so that F4 provides a super long alac, and I don't need to completely swap my gear. 

Like how Mirage literally just traits something, or Willbender will just trait something, while being in full dps gear and doing okay dps. I just want equal grounds, and not having to sacrifice EVERYTHING in order to do something that mesmers and guardians do so easily. 

Edited February 20, 2022 by zallesz.1650

[Obtena.7952]

4 hours ago, zallesz.1650 said:

My only gripe is that as an alacren I have to sacrifice all my dps, dressed in Full Diviners, I hit like a wet noodle. What does that give me currently: 10 man alac. Fair enough. 

In the future, if I sacrifice all my dps, still hit like a wet noodle because I can only cover 100 alac uptime in full diviner, and can only give alc to 5 man.... that's not cool. Then change the Grandmaster Trait so that F4 provides a super long alac, and I don't need to completely swap my gear. 

Like how Mirage literally just traits something, or Willbender will just trait something, while being in full dps gear and doing okay dps. I just want equal grounds, and not having to sacrifice EVERYTHING in order to do something that mesmers and guardians do so easily. 

Diviners is not the significant DPS drop you think it is, especially if you consider the benefit of Alacrity to the team's performance in the aggregate. The alacren actually has pretty lax requirements for being able to give perma Alacrity, especially when you consider what other classes have to do to deliver in their designated roles. 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Obtena.7952