Virtuoso Prospects

[Avion Blade.4869]

We're gonna be dying a lot first before we become more effective with Virtuoso.

 

I forecast that we might forget a clone won't pop up to meat shield for us. Phantasms will still appear, but will then become blade stock. So it will be difficult at first to adjust. Therefore, the first common builds will primarily focus on high damage burst hit and runs with cloak involved. Our shatters are ranged now which is actually crazy to realize. They are On-demand darts so to speak.

 

The utilities are AOE and we have a knock back utility, so that helps against thieves and any other class with a skill to insta teleport to you, new or old.

 

Power is definitely the go-to expectation because conditions benefit from clones for the extra stacks. The dagger for the virtuoso has a supplementary attack hitting the flanks of the target, so sigils that use flank-attack bonuses will benefit from that. 

 

After while, people will counter virtuoso with adding a lot of stuns/ccs, and I think Chaos top, top, bottom might help with virtuoso.

 

Without clones, a storm on heal will be helpful, condi converted to boons while stunned is necessary, and the stability while you are sending darts will be nice. 

 

I think Domination, Chaos, and Virtuoso might be the go-to, but mesmers will start with duelist/domination/virtuoso.

 

Illusions is good for that quickness, but requires a phantasm, so quick shatters for quick darts require phantasms. But illusions benefit from clones being generated; when you generate blades I know compounding power will still apply, but the synergy is with the clones for the shatters. So Illusions would be used for phantasm summon + shatter for follow up. But for domination, I hope the shatters remove boons at range with domination, it wouldn't make sense if it didn't. Illusion might be the less-likely pick, but in a 1vX it may be used because of the lower shatter cooldown. 

Edited February 25, 2022 by Avion Blade.4869

[xareo.2596]

virtuoso nerfed all traits/skills on illusion creation.

for core/mirage, those traits/skills are triggered 2 times for a single phantasm skill: phantasm -> clone

for chrono, it is 3 times: phantasm -> phantasm -> clone

for virtuoso, it is just 1 time on blade creation.

 

And those traits/skills would stop working when blade is maximum. 

 

virtuoso maybe only useful in open world or story for the fancy animation.

[Mell.4873]

2 hours ago, xareo.2596 said:

virtuoso nerfed all traits/skills on illusion creation.

for core/mirage, those traits/skills are triggered 2 times for a single phantasm skill: phantasm -> clone

for chrono, it is 3 times: phantasm -> phantasm -> clone

for virtuoso, it is just 1 time on blade creation.

 

And those traits/skills would stop working when blade is maximum. 

 

virtuoso maybe only useful in open world or story for the fancy animation.

Hmmm well phantasms for Chronomancer were very strong but hopefully with the crazy Bleed —> blade stock we have some amazing shatter synergies.

I guess you could get off a 5 stocked blade shatter very often creating a massive incentive to trait for shatter boons, damage, condi. 

[Levetty.1279]

9 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Hmmm well phantasms for Chronomancer were very strong but hopefully with the crazy Bleed —> blade stock we have some amazing shatter synergies.

I guess you could get off a 5 stocked blade shatter very often creating a massive incentive to trait for shatter boons, damage, condi. 

No? The post you quoted told you exactly why on illusion creating traits are weaker on virtuoso. What you said doesn't even make sense.

[Mell.4873]

2 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

No? The post you quoted told you exactly why on illusion creating traits are weaker on virtuoso. What you said doesn't even make sense.

But I said shatters are better and should be the focus of virtouso builds. 

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

1 hour ago, Mell.4873 said:

But I said shatters are better and should be the focus of virtouso builds. 

Except shatters are worse. 

[xareo.2596]

12 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

But I said shatters are better and should be the focus of virtouso builds. 

Virtuoso has much worse shatters.

1, Virtuoso shatters have cast time. Others are all instant cast and no need line of sight.

 

2, Virtuoso shatters are projectiles and not AOE (just pierce). 

 

3, Virtuoso shatters only have slightly higher damage than core mesmer.

Core mesmer F1 total damage is 3 clones + youself = 642/3*4 = 856

Shatter. Destroy all your clones, damaging nearby foes. The shatter effect also occurs at your location.

 Damage.png 1 Illusion: 306 (1.15)?
 Damage.png 2 Illusions (2x): 490 (1.84)?
 Damage.png 3 Illusions (3x): 642 (2.415)?
 Number of targets.png Number of Targets: 5
 Radius.png Radius: 240
 Range.png Range: 1,200

 

Virtuoso F1 total damage is 186 *5 = 930

Bladesong. Fire all stocked blades at your target.

 Damage.png Strike Damage per Blade Spent: 186 (0.7)?
 Number of targets.png Number of Targets: 5
 Pierces.png Pierces
 Power attribute.png Blade
 Range.png Range: 1,200

 

 

 

Edited February 27, 2022 by xareo.2596

[Mell.4873]

40 minutes ago, xareo.2596 said:

Virtuoso has much worse shatters.

1, Virtuoso shatters have cast time. Others are all instant cast and no need line of sight.

 

2, Virtuoso shatters are projectiles and not AOE (just pierce). 

 

3, Virtuoso shatters have less damage than core mesmer.

Core mesmer F1 total damage is 3 clones + youself = 642 +306 = 948

Shatter. Destroy all your clones, damaging nearby foes. The shatter effect also occurs at your location.

 Damage.png 1 Illusion: 306 (1.15)?
 Damage.png 2 Illusions (2x): 490 (1.84)?
 Damage.png 3 Illusions (3x): 642 (2.415)?
 Number of targets.png Number of Targets: 5
 Radius.png Radius: 240
 Range.png Range: 1,200

 

Virtuoso F1 total damage is 186 *5 = 930

Bladesong. Fire all stocked blades at your target.

 Damage.png Strike Damage per Blade Spent: 186 (0.7)?
 Number of targets.png Number of Targets: 5
 Pierces.png Pierces
 Power attribute.png Blade
 Range.png Range: 1,200

 

 

 

Well these are all just numbers that can change, but since phantasms don't respawn like with Chrono and you have 5 blades stocked when you shatter. 

Im sure they will need to buff or balance it but they are aiming for a shatter spec that can restock blades quickly. 

[Levetty.1279]

8 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Well these are all just numbers that can change, but since phantasms don't respawn like with Chrono and you have 5 blades stocked when you shatter. 

Im sure they will need to buff or balance it but they are aiming for a shatter spec that can restock blades quickly. 

Tell me which part of shatters being projectiles that don't aoe is just numbers?

Tell me what the kitten Chronophantasm has to do with anything?

Tell me why we should expect buffs when they used the second beta for Virtuoso just to nerf damage that didn't need nerfing?

[Urphen.2857]

22 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Tell me which part of shatters being projectiles that don't aoe is just numbers?

Tell me what the kitten Chronophantasm has to do with anything?

Tell me why we should expect buffs when they used the second beta for Virtuoso just to nerf damage that didn't need nerfing?

Give it up, all things you will say get ignored and there will be some nonsense excuse.

The time you all invest to explain is wasted, he/she will defend virtuoso no matter you say, there is literally no Hope, better ignore all post's.

[xareo.2596]

51 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Well these are all just numbers that can change, but since phantasms don't respawn like with Chrono and you have 5 blades stocked when you shatter. 

Im sure they will need to buff or balance it but they are aiming for a shatter spec that can restock blades quickly. 

Instant cast/no line of sight/no projectiles are not just numbers. If you don't know how important they are or you think starting a fight with 5 blades can out-perform them, I doubt you ever play mesmer more than 10 hours.

 

Also your confidence of virtuoso is NOT based on current stats, NOT based on the fact ANET already nerfed virtuoso once in beta2, but based on you imagination that ANET would do some good things in the unknown future?

Edited February 26, 2022 by xareo.2596

[Noodle Ant.1605]

2 hours ago, xareo.2596 said:

Core mesmer F1 total damage is 3 clones + youself = 642 +306 = 948

Shatter. Destroy all your clones, damaging nearby foes. The shatter effect also occurs at your location.

 Damage.png 1 Illusion: 306 (1.15)?
 Damage.png 2 Illusions (2x): 490 (1.84)?
 Damage.png 3 Illusions (3x): 642 (2.415)?
 Number of targets.png Number of Targets: 5
 Radius.png Radius: 240
 Range.png Range: 1,200

i dont think thats how IP works, the “mesmers” shatter has the same power as the clones that it shatters - if its 0 or 1 clone then its 1.15, 2 clones: 1.84/2, 3 clones: 2.415/3

the totals should look like: 1.15/2.3/2.74/3.22 for 0/1/2/3 clone (coeff-wise) or 306/612/735/856 (if you want to work with those weird numbers)

Edited February 27, 2022 by Noodle Ant.1605
forgot 0 clone shatters existed lol

[phokus.8934]

1 hour ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Tell me which part of shatters being projectiles that don't aoe is just numbers?

Tell me what the kitten Chronophantasm has to do with anything?

Tell me why we should expect buffs when they used the second beta for Virtuoso just to nerf damage that didn't need nerfing?

He doesn't understand Mesmer nor how Virtuoso bladesongs are just flat out worse in every way.

[xareo.2596]

33 minutes ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

i dont think thats how IP works, the “mesmers” shatter has the same power as the clones that it shatters - if its 0 or 1 clone then its 1.15, 2 clones: 1.84/2, 3 clones: 2.415/3

the totals should look like: 1.15/2.3/2.74/3.22 for 0/1/2/3 clone (coeff-wise) or 306/612/735/856 (if you want to work with those weird numbers)

yep, u r right

[Dadnir.5038]

From my point of view, the devs just have to add boon ripping to rain of swords and sword of decimation and the virtuoso have a place in the game as it would allow it to step a bit on the necromancer's toes in WvW. In fact if they could replace some traits with traits that capitalize on boon ripping along those changes, the virtuoso might end up being "great".

Otherwise, as it is there is still to many drawbacks associated to the loss of the clones. People only look at the poor performances of shatter but, the clones add semi passive damages when they are up, they body block some attacks, help in misdirecting other players... etc. Being able to keep around your blades stacks in between fights/targets and having a few aegis sources hardly compensate for all those losses.

[Salt Mode.3780]

20 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

From my point of view, the devs just have to add boon ripping to rain of swords and sword of decimation and the virtuoso have a place in the game as it would allow it to step a bit on the necromancer's toes in WvW. In fact if they could replace some traits with traits that capitalize on boon ripping along those changes, the virtuoso might end up being "great".

Otherwise, as it is there is still to many drawbacks associated to the loss of the clones. People only look at the poor performances of shatter but, the clones add semi passive damages when they are up, they body block some attacks, help in misdirecting other players... etc. Being able to keep around your blades stacks in between fights/targets and having a few aegis sources hardly compensate for all those losses.

Lol they are not going to add boon ripping to virtuoso's aoe skills just look at the sad excuse of an elite it has.

Might I add they will also need to add the unblockable feature to it to make it comparable to necro wells.

Edited February 27, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

12 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Well these are all just numbers that can change, but since phantasms don't respawn like with Chrono and you have 5 blades stocked when you shatter. 

Im sure they will need to buff or balance it but they are aiming for a shatter spec that can restock blades quickly. 

"numbers can change" is a meme at this point. People have been saying it since beta1 did anything change? 

Plus projectiles, easily strafeable, cast time. 

And again Virt f3 is just one of the most useless skills on game and F4 will get you killed. The only Virt shatter worth a kitten is F2, everything else is just sad. 

[Chrolo.8536]

2 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

From my point of view, the devs just have to add boon ripping to rain of swords and sword of decimation and the virtuoso have a place in the game as it would allow it to step a bit on the necromancer's toes in WvW. In fact if they could replace some traits with traits that capitalize on boon ripping along those changes, the virtuoso might end up being "great".

Otherwise, as it is there is still to many drawbacks associated to the loss of the clones. People only look at the poor performances of shatter but, the clones add semi passive damages when they are up, they body block some attacks, help in misdirecting other players... etc. Being able to keep around your blades stacks in between fights/targets and having a few aegis sources hardly compensate for all those losses.

 

They could add a trait which allows psychics to boon rip for example (per pulse on RoS and the elite). This would potentially allow it to become viable in wvw. As basically everyone pointed out, the condi line could be removed or condensed into one trait to make place for interesting trait options.

 

But they did not adress any important feedbacks and as it looks we will be stuck with this sorry excuse of an elite spec for at least 6 months.

[Mell.4873]

12 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Tell me which part of shatters being projectiles that don't aoe is just numbers?

Tell me what the kitten Chronophantasm has to do with anything?

Tell me why we should expect buffs when they used the second beta for Virtuoso just to nerf damage that didn't need nerfing?

What I don't understand is why are you stressing about the lack of damage numbers on virtuoso, if no one plays it since its not viable they will buff it. 

I play chrono, it's my main for goodness sakes. I will just switch back if it is bad and just use it for fights where I can't use my sword sword. 

[Mell.4873]

12 hours ago, xareo.2596 said:

Instant cast/no line of sight/no projectiles are not just numbers. If you don't know how important they are or you think starting a fight with 5 blades can out-perform them, I doubt you ever play mesmer more than 10 hours.

 

Also your confidence of virtuoso is NOT based on current stats, NOT based on the fact ANET already nerfed virtuoso once in beta2, but based on you imagination that ANET would do some good things in the unknown future?

Its my main for the past two years, I have played since launch. 

[Alpha.1308]

2 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

if no one plays it since its not viable they will buff it. 

y.i.k.e.s.

as if that's the best idea, looking at this games history 

*coughs in Chaos Vortex*

the balance devs have no idea how to properly adjust something to help solidify a spot somewhere in the games 3 game modes, especially if they refuse to separate the balance between them more aggressively 

 

even if they tweak numbers, this spec has an absolute train wreck of a design concept going for it

at best, this will end up being salvaged, hollowed out, and reduced to nothing more than "just another high dps for pve raids"

implying every single other class and their sub specs in the entire game can't have the literal same exact numerical tweak adjustments to do just that, be "just another high dps in pve raids"

Edited February 27, 2022 by Alpha.1308

[Obtena.7952]

19 minutes ago, Alpha.1308 said:

y.i.k.e.s.

as if that's the best idea, looking at this games history 

Well, it's a very realistic view ... that's exactly how we see Anet react to things that they want people to play so your comment ... strange. 

Quote

*coughs in Chaos Vortex*

the balance devs have no idea how to properly adjust something to help solidify a spot somewhere in the games 3 game modes, especially if they refuse to separate the balance between them more aggressively 

 

even if they tweak numbers, this spec has an absolute train wreck of a design concept going for it

at best, this will end up being salvaged, hollowed out, and reduced to nothing more than "just another high dps for pve raids"

implying every single other class and their sub specs in the entire game can't have the literal same exact numerical tweak adjustments to do just that, be "just another high dps in pve raids"

Again, if that's true, Anet will buff it. They might even give it the 'Scrapper' treatment and re-invent it ... but they aren't going to do that based on people's complaints about it before it's even been given a chance to go through some actual playtime. 

The OP's view is a little strange ... like the ONLY defensive element Mesmer has is a Clone. From that perspective, Virtuoso makes lots of sense as a concept, since I'm pretty sure the intent of spawning clones wasn't intended to be purely defensive in the first place. 

Edited February 27, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Halbarz.3854]

Hi all, 

I was messing around a little with the build editor and was wondering what your thoughts are on this virtuoso build? 
The idea is to give it both melee and ranged capabilities in PvE: Virtuoso build I think the virtuoso can bring a nice balance between melee and ranged dps and I hope I achieved that with this build. 

It's my first attempt at making a build of my own hihi,  appreciate all feedback! 

[Salt Mode.3780]

2 minutes ago, Halbarz.3854 said:

Hi all, 

I was messing around a little with the build editor and was wondering what your thoughts are on this virtuoso build? 
The idea is to give it both melee and ranged capabilities in PvE: Virtuoso build I think the virtuoso can bring a nice balance between melee and ranged dps and I hope I achieved that with this build. 

It's my first attempt at making a build of my own hihi,  appreciate all feedback! 

I assume this is for PvE because you will get obliterated in PvP. If its PvE its w/e honestly lol until a raid group finds the best weapon set for dps.

If its open world even more so.

Edited February 27, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Halbarz.3854]

Just now, Salt Mode.3780 said:

I assume this is for PvE because you will get obliterated in PvP.

It is for pve 🙂