Why Guild Wars 2 Especially Needs Low Intensity Builds

[Rhingeim.3974]

I'm absolutely for good competitive LI builds. 

In every MMO I've played, I'm always looking for something less piano rolling, to save time on difficult fights and spend more in exploring lore and locations. 

 

So far, almost all LI builds in GW2, while being good for occasional OW stuff, starts to falling down in group activities. This type of gap should be revisited. Something like around 15-20% less dps, so this type of players will not be kicked due to not running meta builds expected from their profession. Like minion necromancer, great for OW, not liked in raids. 

 

Another thing, which for my opinion becomes better in EoD, is something I would like to call mounts gap. PoF mounts gives a lot of pros since you can get quickly to locations where something is happening. And cherry on top, scyscale. I don't have it, and have a lot of experience of being late on action while roaming with groups. Gating such things by relatively high grindwall may feel frustrating for new players. 

[DexterousGecko.6328]

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Funny how you claim you want to "avoid bickering" and then make some passive-aggresive jokes aimed at me. Totally not bickering 🙄

As far as I remember, there were always/almost always some stepts included in these builds, but you can check by yourself:

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Open_World#Low-Intensity_Builds

Apologies, I wasn't meaning to insult you. I was merely making a joke about you actually being a good player and looking for MORE challenge ( i honestly do believe that ) while I'm looking for the easiest way to get decent dps, because I'm actually pretty terrible, and can use all the cheese I can get.

[Gorem.8104]

5 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Ranger is easy. Fully buffed (but no food) condi shortbow SB autoattacking from  behind is 10k already. Then you add food, and spam skills of cooldown.

True on the dps side of things, but I was putting together a build where you don't even have to move, or be behind your target. An open world build that has great healing when required to allow people to solo a lot of champs standing still with no mouse. I mean I did forget about Scourge and how they can already do this and all you are required to do is just use your face to play it but Anet never really nerfs Necro's compared to other classes. Hah! 

[Gorem.8104]

4 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I don't think you have anything to worry about.  I've been sharing staff mirage for 4 years now and they actually buffed it since then!

Well that is rather interesting, brings some hope for non-Guardian/necro classes! 

[Dante.1508]

On 6/2/2022 at 12:25 PM, ArchonWing.9480 said:

I also run something similar to that  as well as small scale WvW. Though I usually think Alac trait is better with anyone else around.

 I don't think traveler is a good idea.  Shift Signet + J Drive is already a 25% movement boost all the time. Balthazar would probably be better.

I also think Spark Revolver (Making the mech ranged) has poor synergy with flamethrower

Mine uses explosive knuckle.

[ArchonWing.9480]

9 minutes ago, Dante.1508 said:

Mine uses explosive knuckle.

 I feel like that gets better if other people are around.

[Lottie.5370]

+1 to low intensity builds, they're great! Not everyone is able (or wants to) to play a super mechanical or high APM build, and with them they can still perform well. It makes content more accessible to people.

 

I do still think that skill should be rewarded, and builds with harder rotations that min-max more probably should be doing more DPS, but both things should exist.

[Jimbru.6014]

There's so much misunderstanding in this thread that I'm not sure where to start, so this will be kinda stream of thought.

I've been playing and/or testing MMOs since the early days of UO and EQ, at least touching on most major games and many minor ones as well. I've been playing GW2 since just a few months after release.

Older MMOs such as EQ and WoW prided themselves on being games for hardcore players, DEMANDING hours per day EVERY day just to stay caught up to the vertical gear grinds and keep your muscle memory fresh for your rotations and knowing all the mechanics of every one of the ever-growing number of raids with each new release. And if you weren't raiding, you were expected to be getting ready to raid. FUN was a four letter word. I played WoW for 11 years and finally left during Warlords of Draenor because I finally got fed up with all that. That kind of gaming was literally a job that I was paying to do, and GW2 was one of the first games to really embrace the ideal of casual play in MMOs.

GW2 is full of people like me, who fled WoW to get away from the grind. I recall some years ago, before COVID, Anet mentioned in some dev talk that only like 10-15% of GW2 players were "hardcores" in terms of raids and PVP. The rest were casual PVE players who hated the toxicity of competitive gaming and the DPS decimal counting elitism of "meta" raiding; they just wanted to have fun and be shiny, and the gem store provides. And from what I can see now, that situation hasn't changed. The casual majority are who keeps Anet's doors open; the "hardcores" are just the ones who yell the loudest, so they get listened to much more than they probably should.

Anyway, Anet wanted to try to get more people into that harder content, so they created strike missions as an intermediate level toward raiding - with the result that strike missions became their own game mode entirely, while the number of people raiding stayed basically the same. Anet has created legendary armor that in WvW requires literally 22 WEEKS WORTH OF MAX SKIRMISH TICKETS (plus  all the other ingredients) to acquire ONE six piece set. Or you can raid or PVP for some equivalently ridiculous amount of time. And if you can't max out every week, which most of us can't because we have real lives and regular jobs, then it takes even longer. Heck, EVERY legendary item requires at least one Gift of Battle, which can only be acquired from WvW. Such "mandatory fun" measures are the only thing really propping up those less popular game modes. It's not casual friendly, and it's NOT fun.

So, in my opinion as a gamer and tester of long experience, and understanding the makeup of GW2's population, I think LI builds should be the STANDARD, not the exception, and the gear that every player naturally is going to want should be available to the whole population without demanding we organize our lifestyle around the game. Hardcore meta piano playing and endurance gaming trying to max out is not what keeps this game alive. It's the casual population who just want to have fun, and the game in all forms should embrace them, as Mukluk has with all the LI builds he's been posting on his Youtube channel. Highly recommended viewing IMHO.

Edited June 5, 2022 by Jimbru.6014

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

Gw2 has always had a handful of low intensity builds. Just watch teapots build showcase, with EoD there are a lot more out there. As for their performance they can easily compete with more difficult builds and push out 30k+ dps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bWuAn3WOqk&t=2098s

The problem is there are other parts to combat such as positioning in fights, dodging, doing boss mechanics etc. that still require high skill caps. For this reason you cant mistake low intensity for easy combat. For example just watch teapot do a raid with nothing but firebrand, scourge, mechanist. They are 3 of the easiest, lowest effort classes to play but it still takes a highly skilled player to beat raids and strikes with them.

[Rhingeim.3974]

6 hours ago, Jimbru.6014 said:

There's so much misunderstanding in this thread that I'm not sure where to start, so this will be kinda stream of thought.

I've been playing and/or testing MMOs since the early days of UO and EQ, at least touching on most major games and many minor ones as well. I've been playing GW2 since just a few months after release.

Older MMOs such as EQ and WoW prided themselves on being games for hardcore players, DEMANDING hours per day EVERY day just to stay caught up to the vertical gear grinds and keep your muscle memory fresh for your rotations and knowing all the mechanics of every one of the ever-growing number of raids with each new release. And if you weren't raiding, you were expected to be getting ready to raid. FUN was a four letter word. I played WoW for 11 years and finally left during Warlords of Draenor because I finally got fed up with all that. That kind of gaming was literally a job that I was paying to do, and GW2 was one of the first games to really embrace the ideal of casual play in MMOs.

GW2 is full of people like me, who fled WoW to get away from the grind. I recall some years ago, before COVID, Anet mentioned in some dev talk that only like 10-15% of GW2 players were "hardcores" in terms of raids and PVP. The rest were casual PVE players who hated the toxicity of competitive gaming and the DPS decimal counting elitism of "meta" raiding; they just wanted to have fun and be shiny, and the gem store provides. And from what I can see now, that situation hasn't changed. The casual majority are who keeps Anet's doors open; the "hardcores" are just the ones who yell the loudest, so they get listened to much more than they probably should.

Anyway, Anet wanted to try to get more people into that harder content, so they created strike missions as an intermediate level toward raiding - with the result that strike missions became their own game mode entirely, while the number of people raiding stayed basically the same. Anet has created legendary armor that in WvW requires literally 22 WEEKS WORTH OF MAX SKIRMISH TICKETS (plus  all the other ingredients) to acquire ONE six piece set. Or you can raid or PVP for some equivalently ridiculous amount of time. And if you can't max out every week, which most of us can't because we have real lives and regular jobs, then it takes even longer. Heck, EVERY legendary item requires at least one Gift of Battle, which can only be acquired from WvW. Such measures are the only thing really propping up those unpopular game modes. It's not casual friendly, and it's not fun.

So, in my opinion as a gamer and tester of long experience, and understanding the makeup of GW2's population, I think LI builds should be the STANDARD, not the exception, and the gear that every player naturally is going to want should be available to the whole population without demanding we organize our lifestyle around the game. Hardcore meta piano playing and endurance gaming trying to max out is not what keeps this game alive. It's the casual population who just want to have fun, and the game in all forms should embrace them, as Mukluk has with all the LI builds he's been posting on his Youtube channel. Highly recommended viewing IMHO.

 

100% agree. 

 

Sometimes I'm thinking that hardcore players are often a some sort of kitten for developers. 

 

If game have monthly subscription with ability to pay with real money - hardcore players will often be able to do that instead of real money. 

 

If game design has some points where it has problem, leading to having OP/Broken builds, hardcore player will find it, use it, and than either create a hate train for "bad balance" or "game is easy we have nothing to do, give us challenge".

 

Sometimes it extended to selling game currency and items outside of developers control and rules. 

 

Also, according to ANet, EoD have really good sells, player base increased, so LI builds which offers probably the best learning curve into the game should be something available and useful for 99% of content. 

[Dante.1508]

7 hours ago, Jimbru.6014 said:

There's so much misunderstanding in this thread that I'm not sure where to start, so this will be kinda stream of thought.

I've been playing and/or testing MMOs since the early days of UO and EQ, at least touching on most major games and many minor ones as well. I've been playing GW2 since just a few months after release.

Older MMOs such as EQ and WoW prided themselves on being games for hardcore players, DEMANDING hours per day EVERY day just to stay caught up to the vertical gear grinds and keep your muscle memory fresh for your rotations and knowing all the mechanics of every one of the ever-growing number of raids with each new release. And if you weren't raiding, you were expected to be getting ready to raid. FUN was a four letter word. I played WoW for 11 years and finally left during Warlords of Draenor because I finally got fed up with all that. That kind of gaming was literally a job that I was paying to do, and GW2 was one of the first games to really embrace the ideal of casual play in MMOs.

GW2 is full of people like me, who fled WoW to get away from the grind. I recall some years ago, before COVID, Anet mentioned in some dev talk that only like 10-15% of GW2 players were "hardcores" in terms of raids and PVP. The rest were casual PVE players who hated the toxicity of competitive gaming and the DPS decimal counting elitism of "meta" raiding; they just wanted to have fun and be shiny, and the gem store provides. And from what I can see now, that situation hasn't changed. The casual majority are who keeps Anet's doors open; the "hardcores" are just the ones who yell the loudest, so they get listened to much more than they probably should.

Anyway, Anet wanted to try to get more people into that harder content, so they created strike missions as an intermediate level toward raiding - with the result that strike missions became their own game mode entirely, while the number of people raiding stayed basically the same. Anet has created legendary armor that in WvW requires literally 22 WEEKS WORTH OF MAX SKIRMISH TICKETS (plus  all the other ingredients) to acquire ONE six piece set. Or you can raid or PVP for some equivalently ridiculous amount of time. And if you can't max out every week, which most of us can't because we have real lives and regular jobs, then it takes even longer. Heck, EVERY legendary item requires at least one Gift of Battle, which can only be acquired from WvW. Such measures are the only thing really propping up those unpopular game modes. It's not casual friendly, and it's not fun.

So, in my opinion as a gamer and tester of long experience, and understanding the makeup of GW2's population, I think LI builds should be the STANDARD, not the exception, and the gear that every player naturally is going to want should be available to the whole population without demanding we organize our lifestyle around the game. Hardcore meta piano playing and endurance gaming trying to max out is not what keeps this game alive. It's the casual population who just want to have fun, and the game in all forms should embrace them, as Mukluk has with all the LI builds he's been posting on his Youtube channel. Highly recommended viewing IMHO.

Man well said, i wish i could like this more than once thank you for explaining what many of us in game are feeling these days.

26 minutes ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

Gw2 has always had a handful of low intensity builds. Just watch teapots build showcase, with EoD there are a lot more out there. As for their performance they can easily compete with more difficult builds and push out 30k+ dps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bWuAn3WOqk&t=2098s

The problem is there are other parts to combat such as positioning in fights, dodging, doing boss mechanics etc. that still require high skill caps. For this reason you cant mistake low intensity for easy combat. For example just watch teapot do a raid with nothing but firebrand, scourge, mechanist. They are 3 of the easiest, lowest effort classes to play but it still takes a highly skilled player to beat raids and strikes with them.

The issue is Anet tend to ruin them every three months.. And many of us are tired of it.

Edited June 5, 2022 by Dante.1508

[SlayerXX.7138]

On 6/3/2022 at 10:26 PM, Rhingeim.3974 said:

So far, almost all LI builds in GW2, while being good for occasional OW stuff, starts to falling down in group activities. This type of gap should be revisited. Something like around 15-20% less dps, so this type of players will not be kicked due to not running meta builds expected from their profession. Like minion necromancer, great for OW, not liked in raids. 

Nope they don't really fall of. Better player do better dps on similar builds like it should be. A good geared LI build does up to 20k dps which qualifies you for every content but CM. If you get kicked out of a group you either do NO dps or failed a mechanic. In Strikes highest dps routinely does double what the lowest dps does and no one bats an eye.

 

[Jimbru.6014]

Someone mentioned LI builds in relation to dealing with mechanics. LI builds actually have an advantage over meta piano builds in that regard, because they don't have long complex DPS rotations to start up and maintain. LI builds can break stride for mechanics and pick right back up with DPS much more easily. Boom, boom, boom...oh, a mechanic! Dodge this, breakbar that, get in the green circle...OK, mechanic done. Boom, boom, boom...

[SlayerXX.7138]

9 hours ago, Jimbru.6014 said:

WoW prided themselves on being games for hardcore players,

For its time WoW was a more casual user friendly MMO. The Problem is their userbase is to active and without artificial grind they cant make content fast enough without the userbase consuming it in an instant.

9 hours ago, Jimbru.6014 said:

Anet has created legendary armor that in WvW requires literally 22 WEEKS WORTH OF MAX SKIRMISH TICKETS (plus  all the other ingredients) to acquire ONE six piece set. Or you can raid or PVP for some equivalently ridiculous amount of time. And if you can't max out every week, which most of us can't because we have real lives and regular jobs, then it takes even longer.

Then don't do it? They are not necessary to have fun, play the game or do top performance. There are here as a progression system for people who can do it. Every MMORPG needs a form of progression that is the core gameplay loop of the RPG part. No progression people leave the game. Like Warlords of Dreanor in WoW when people run out of things to do.

9 hours ago, Jimbru.6014 said:

So, in my opinion as a gamer and tester of long experience, and understanding the makeup of GW2's population, I think LI builds should be the STANDARD, not the exception, and the gear that every player naturally is going to want should be available to the whole population without demanding we organize our lifestyle around the game.

Ascended is available to everyone. If you talk about Legendary armor... If you don't understand why trivializing all endgame content and devaluing Legendary equipment(Big part of vertical Progression) isn't good for the long-term health of the game either your self interest clouds your judgment or there is a reason you are a Game tester and not a game developer. You also overvaluing dps as a metric for success. As most current LI build can clear any content already with their dps. It is the actually mechanics of the fights that stop people.

[AliamRationem.5172]

11 hours ago, Jimbru.6014 said:

There's so much misunderstanding in this thread that I'm not sure where to start, so this will be kinda stream of thought.

I've been playing and/or testing MMOs since the early days of UO and EQ, at least touching on most major games and many minor ones as well. I've been playing GW2 since just a few months after release.

Older MMOs such as EQ and WoW prided themselves on being games for hardcore players, DEMANDING hours per day EVERY day just to stay caught up to the vertical gear grinds and keep your muscle memory fresh for your rotations and knowing all the mechanics of every one of the ever-growing number of raids with each new release. And if you weren't raiding, you were expected to be getting ready to raid. FUN was a four letter word. I played WoW for 11 years and finally left during Warlords of Draenor because I finally got fed up with all that. That kind of gaming was literally a job that I was paying to do, and GW2 was one of the first games to really embrace the ideal of casual play in MMOs.

GW2 is full of people like me, who fled WoW to get away from the grind. I recall some years ago, before COVID, Anet mentioned in some dev talk that only like 10-15% of GW2 players were "hardcores" in terms of raids and PVP. The rest were casual PVE players who hated the toxicity of competitive gaming and the DPS decimal counting elitism of "meta" raiding; they just wanted to have fun and be shiny, and the gem store provides. And from what I can see now, that situation hasn't changed. The casual majority are who keeps Anet's doors open; the "hardcores" are just the ones who yell the loudest, so they get listened to much more than they probably should.

Anyway, Anet wanted to try to get more people into that harder content, so they created strike missions as an intermediate level toward raiding - with the result that strike missions became their own game mode entirely, while the number of people raiding stayed basically the same. Anet has created legendary armor that in WvW requires literally 22 WEEKS WORTH OF MAX SKIRMISH TICKETS (plus  all the other ingredients) to acquire ONE six piece set. Or you can raid or PVP for some equivalently ridiculous amount of time. And if you can't max out every week, which most of us can't because we have real lives and regular jobs, then it takes even longer. Heck, EVERY legendary item requires at least one Gift of Battle, which can only be acquired from WvW. Such "mandatory fun" measures are the only thing really propping up those less popular game modes. It's not casual friendly, and it's NOT fun.

So, in my opinion as a gamer and tester of long experience, and understanding the makeup of GW2's population, I think LI builds should be the STANDARD, not the exception, and the gear that every player naturally is going to want should be available to the whole population without demanding we organize our lifestyle around the game. Hardcore meta piano playing and endurance gaming trying to max out is not what keeps this game alive. It's the casual population who just want to have fun, and the game in all forms should embrace them, as Mukluk has with all the LI builds he's been posting on his Youtube channel. Highly recommended viewing IMHO.

You don't seem very observant for someone who has been "testing" MMOs for decades.  If this forum is any indication, self-described "casuals" make the most noise about "elitists" that barely exist.  From referring to websites that they never visit as "pushing the meta" when they in fact feature entire sections for LI builds, open world, casual fare to ranting about the elitist boogeyman when they never participate in any of the content they're ranting about.

The fact is this game billed itself as something it wasn't, developed a lot of hype, and deflated like a tire with a blowout before eventually changing course to something more challenging than your average mobile game for players 3 and up.  Those self-described casuals love to claim that the game was really successful and popular in the core days, but it just wasn't.  It sucked.  It still sucks.  Only more challenging expansion content saved it and that's continued to this day, with GW2 being a moderately successful product in a field full of failures.

Personally, I'm glad ANet hasn't listened to the casual noise as doing so would have cratered this game years ago.

[AliamRationem.5172]

4 hours ago, Rhingeim.3974 said:

 

100% agree. 

 

Sometimes I'm thinking that hardcore players are often a some sort of kitten for developers. 

 

If game have monthly subscription with ability to pay with real money - hardcore players will often be able to do that instead of real money. 

 

If game design has some points where it has problem, leading to having OP/Broken builds, hardcore player will find it, use it, and than either create a hate train for "bad balance" or "game is easy we have nothing to do, give us challenge".

 

Sometimes it extended to selling game currency and items outside of developers control and rules. 

 

Also, according to ANet, EoD have really good sells, player base increased, so LI builds which offers probably the best learning curve into the game should be something available and useful for 99% of content. 

Meanwhile, your average casual spends no time in the game, spends no money, and demands that everything be as easy as playing Candyland or they're taking their no money elsewhere!  See?  I can generalize, too.

[Rhingeim.3974]

1 hour ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Meanwhile, your average casual spends no time in the game, spends no money, and demands that everything be as easy as playing Candyland or they're taking their no money elsewhere!  See?  I can generalize, too.

 

I'm more into midcore/casual honestly. Found leveling and gearing towards 80 level a bit boring - bought couple 80 level boosters. Prefer visual and overall gameplay comfort over performance - running Harbringer with minions, without any elixir skill with several cosmetics from Gem store. Also, spend gems for visuals for my other boosted characters, boat and other things that like the look. Maybe would consider buying skyscale unlock for several k gems if it will be available someday, because I found grind required for it a bit to much for my taste. Don't bother with zone completion unless I really like the aesthetic. Couple of times bought gems only to transfer into  gold, because ~ 150g for celestial + Torment runes set is to much for me to grind. And in general play GW2 from time to time. Complete only one strike because of turtle, and only because overall short quest about this turtle hook me up. 

 

Just to clarify - is spending real money for 20k+ gems for couple months of relaxed gameplay considered hardcore or casual? 

 

Casuals may spend more real money because of stuff not related to gameplay at all. Just building a nice looking characters. They often have their own goals. To go through story. To buttonmash in big PVE Meta events for visual candies. And, in general, asks about more friendly curves or alternative ways of getting something just not to make a single game a second job. 

 

I saw it in various games, both from developer and players perspective. Casuals play, have some fun, spend here and there some money (however here can be a differences depending  on difference in players financial credo), may discuss a lot of various topics not related to deep digging in gameplay mechanics, while hardcore crowd, due to heavy investment of their time, at some point start focusing mostly on problems, lack of content or it's problems. 

 

ANet somewhere mentioned, that end-game activities captured around 15% of the playerbase. 

[Dante.1508]

9 hours ago, Albi.7250 said:

Nope they don't really fall of. Better player do better dps on similar builds like it should be. A good geared LI build does up to 20k dps which qualifies you for every content but CM. If you get kicked out of a group you either do NO dps or failed a mechanic. In Strikes highest dps routinely does double what the lowest dps does and no one bats an eye.

 

Its not really a better player its more faster hand eye coordination.. Thats really all GW2 requires.. its partially to know where to stand and not die, and how fast you press your little buttons. Thats it in a nut shell.

There are a hand full of skilled players theory crafting op builds for other players.. the rest is the above.

I spend $150 - $200 a fortnight on gems and i'm no where near whale standards..

Edited June 6, 2022 by Dante.1508

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Dante.1508 said:

Its not really a better player its more faster hand eye coordination.. Thats really all GW2 requires.. its partially to know where to stand and not die, and how fast you press your little buttons. Thats it in a nut shell.

...also known as those players just being better. And it's not limited to this game or even any computer game in general. When people are better at something, it's usually because they are better physically and mentally prepared for a task -whatever it is- often through learning and practice. Saying "they're not better, they're just faster and know what to do" is pretty backwards.

[vicky.9751]

On 3/2/2022 at 9:55 AM, Gibson.4036 said:

And that's why low-skill, low-playtime players are disappointed and maybe even a little panicked. They currently don't see an alternative way to make their favorite game accessible again.

What is your post even about? The fact that EoD builds are new and just now being tested? Or the fact that you have to look up guides on the internet like many other games?  Your post just reads like you want the TLDR version of a book that just came out and nobody has read it yet.

I can be 30% of dps on a t4 fractal boss just spamming daredevil button 2. It's not always about skill, it's about picking a class you can perform well on. Daredevil has 3 dodges, and a utility block skill. 

Edited June 6, 2022 by vicky.9751