If you beat the Dragon's End meta for the Turtle mount - your headache isn't over just yet.

[Einsof.1457]

2 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

I have no problem with there being challenging content in the game, instanced or open world. If they'd been up front about the turtle being locked behind it, I would have shrugged and realized my kids probably won't get it. I would have let my daughter know when she decided to buy EoD with her own money because she was excited about jade bots and the turtle, that the turtle may be out of her reach before she commited to spend the money.

But they specifically addressed fears of it being behind a hurdle players would find too high by saying it would be like getting the roller beetle.

That's my issue.

And that sucks, dont get me wrong. I have kids too. Not old enough to play but if that happened, I would probably play their account while they slept and got the turtle for them. Not sure what else to do in that scenario. 

[Einsof.1457]

8 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

You do understand though that casual players (aka the vast majority of the community) have never attempted a single raid?

Let alone completed a wing let alone considered starting a static group?

You are not a casual player by any sensible definition^^ 

I have played MMORPGs since 1999. I am not shy and understand the demands of the genre. A lot of people don't know what it's like to play Everquest vanilla back in 2000 or FFXI in 2004. Modern games are so chill compared to back then. 

Edited March 7, 2022 by Einsof.1457

[Erise.5614]

7 minutes ago, Einsof.1457 said:

I have played MMORPGs since 1999. I am not shy and understand the demands of the genre. A lot of people don't know what it's like to play Everquest vanilla back in 2000 or FFXI in 2004. Modern games are so chill compared to back then. 

Glad you enjoyed your time with the genre! 

But just so I can follow. In what way does that make you a casual player? 

[mgghost.4038]

I'm one of these casuals.

I don't play regulary, maybe 1-2 days a week sometimes 0 days for a few week and nearly never to regular times.

Because of this i'm not an a guild and don't play any other MMOS.

Guild Wars 2 was special to me, because i could just do some solo things or just hop on to some Metas, Wordlbosses and so one without the need of waiting in LFG or need to free up some regular weekly raid times.

 

But now i got the meta done by some rng luck (only 4 tails and no chain side change).

And now they force the gamepleay because of its Abscence i play Guild Wars to me to get a mount i could not even use in this game modes?

And then not even the easy one (if i read the forums right)?

 

I thought ok, i do it once and tried the lfg. There i find something like "Kaineng xx LI Alac, qfb, hbs" wtf?

Ok now i have to first google what the groups want from me, some things i found, but LI?

Sure i can now change a toon to some builds i could not play...what a fun for the whole group...but i think LI is something i wont get in reasonable time.

 

So i really do not understand, why force everyone to a strike mission for an open world item you can't even use in the instanced content? Why not just add it to the Li-Fight in the story, too so you can decide if you do it on your own, or with an origanized group? It's not even some legendary item.

 

Maybe i get to find a group wo would take me through the strike even with some OW gear and skill, but fun is something other.

And EoD was the last thing i preorderd from Arena-Net with the direction this goes.

 

[Einsof.1457]

5 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Glad you enjoyed your time with the genre! 

But just so I can follow. In what way does that make you a casual player? 

It doesn't. It just makes things such as organizing a group seem easy to me. I cut my teeth on the original stuff. I think we have different definitions of the term casual. To me, casual means that you have limited time to play. 

Edited March 7, 2022 by Einsof.1457

[Einsof.1457]

4 minutes ago, mgghost.4038 said:

I'm one of these casuals.

I don't play regulary, maybe 1-2 days a week sometimes 0 days for a few week and nearly never to regular times.

Because of this i'm not an a guild and don't play any other MMOS.

Guild Wars 2 was special to me, because i could just do some solo things or just hop on to some Metas, Wordlbosses and so one without the need of waiting in LFG or need to free up some regular weekly raid times.

 

But now i got the meta done by some rng luck (only 4 tails and no chain side change).

And now they force the gamepleay because of its Abscence i play Guild Wars to me to get a mount i could not even use in this game modes?

And then not even the easy one (if i read the forums right)?

 

I thought ok, i do it once and tried the lfg. There i find something like "Kaineng xx LI Alac, qfb, hbs" wtf?

Ok now i have to first google what the groups want from me, some things i found, but LI?

Sure i can now change a toon to some builds i could not play...what a fun for the whole group...but i think LI is something i wont get in reasonable time.

 

So i really do not understand, why force everyone to a strike mission for an open world item you can't even use in the instanced content? Why not just add it to the Li-Fight in the story, too so you can decide if you do it on your own, or with an origanized group? It's not even some legendary item.

 

Maybe i get to find a group wo would take me through the strike even with some OW gear and skill, but fun is something other.

And EoD was the last thing i preorderd from Arena-Net with the direction this goes.

 

You can start your own group with whatever requirements you deem necessary you know? It's not hardcoded into the game. When I was learning fractal CMs for example, I would always put "chill run" in the LFG. People still joined, and it is what helped me learn the fights. If anyone got mad I would remind them they joined a chill run. 

Edited March 7, 2022 by Einsof.1457

[piitb.7635]

EoD has been out one week.

 

Met me repeat that for those in the back...EoD has been out one week.

 

 

"This is going to be impossible to get"

 

 

ONE WHOLE WEEK.

[Erise.5614]

13 minutes ago, Einsof.1457 said:

It doesn't. It just makes things such as organizing a group seem easy to me. I cut my teeth on the original stuff. I think we have different definitions of the term casual. To me, casual means that you have limited time to play. 

Fair, it can mean a lot of things. The general definition is relaxed, laid back. So I do get the confusion.

When talking about casual or hardcore content you usually distinguish not between amount of time investment but rather by general gameplay skill, game familiarity and how much of a challenge the content can be.

Which also fixes some of the weird things that pop up when you exclusively focus on the time, such as leveling to 80 taking more time than a raid boss does. Very easily so. Even though no sane person would call leveling your first character to max a more hardcore experience. 

Game familiarity and gameplay skill also aren't just limited to the single game. Over time you will learn certain conventions when playing games in general which will make similar things seem very easy. A good example of that is walking and moving the camera simultaneously. It takes dozens of hours at first before one can fluidly and consistently do both things simultaneously and a few hundred before you will entirely stop thinking about it. Where it's just muscle memory. Even if the keys are different in the next game or you switch between gamepad and keyboard, once learned you have this skill forever. But it's a hard ramp initially. 

And once you have learned a whole bunch of these skills you simply belong to the hardcore gamer category. Whether you invest a lot of time or not anymore. As such, hardcore content appears much more appealing and approachable as there is drastically fewer things to learn and actively think about for you. While being anxiety inducing to others. 

Raids are very clearly hardcore content. Catering to an audience looking for mastery of the game and perfection in execution. Who are very familiar. 

And anyone who has played raids is going to be very easily within the most hardcore players. We don't have numbers for that but I'd expect somewhere between top 10%-25% most hardcore. Just for having witnessed a single raid boss being killed ingame. 

Edited March 7, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Doggie.3184]

Yeah the Strike doesn't feel like a Strike at all~ not like the HoM ones. It feels like a raid and is not only difficult but really long. I feel like before the sniper boss there should be a checkpoint.

(I'm also one of the ones who didn't want raiding. I still feel like the game just isn't designed well for it~ I mean we can't even hide player effects. I like FFXIV raids but not GW2 ones. That game is just better suited for it and you don't have to worry about builds, poor UI, lack of QoL features required for it, wonky trinity system or bad LFG systems. I liked the dungeon route more for GW2 but they got phased out forever. Still have a lot of fond memories of doing them with close friends before they all permaquit for other MMOs after they abandoned them.)

I'm also unable to complete the Seitung Aetherblade part so far as it's failed 4 times due to it being at the mercy of a bug we can't do anything about. The breakbars keep failing to trigger making the object perma invuln.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Doggie.3184

[Einsof.1457]

Just now, Erise.5614 said:

Fair, it can mean a lot of things. The general definition is relaxed, laid back. So I do get the confusion.

When talking about casual or hardcore content you usually distinguish not between amount of time investment but rather by general gameplay skill, game familiarity and how much of a challenge the content can be.

Which also fixes some of the weird things that pop up when you exclusively focus on the time, such as leveling to 80 being taking more time than a raid boss does. Very easily so. Even though no sane person would call leveling your first character to max a more hardcore experience. 

Game familiarity and gameplay skill also aren't just limited to the single game. Over time you will learn certain conventions when playing games in general which will make similar things seem very easy. A good example of that is walking and moving the camera simultaneously. It takes dozens of hours at first before one can fluidly and consistently do both things simultaneously and a few hundred before you will entirely stop thinking about it. Where it's just muscle memory. Even if the keys are different in the next game or you switch between gamepade and keyboard, once learned you have this skill forever. But it's a hard ramp initially. 

And once you have learned a whole bunch of these skills you simply belong to the hardcore gamer category. Whether you invest a lot of time or not anymore. As such, hardcore content appears much more appealing and approachable as there is drastically fewer things to learn and actively think about for you. While being anxiety inducing to others. 

Raids are very clearly hardcore content. Catering to an audience looking for mastery of the game and perfection in execution. Who are very familiar. 

And anyone who has played raids is going to be very easily within the most hardcore players. We don't have numbers for that but I'd expect somewhere between 10%-25%. For just having seen a single raid boss in game. 

 Obviously I only understand my personal experience, so I can't really relate with turning down a challenge. With that said, there is plenty of content for everyone in gw2. 

[Erise.5614]

6 minutes ago, Einsof.1457 said:

 Obviously I only understand my personal experience, so I can't really relate with turning down a challenge. With that said, there is plenty of content for everyone in gw2. 

And that's where you're starting to either be intentionally obtuse or ignorant or something else along those lines.

Yes, but then it's not fine to lock a headline feature behind it. At the very least there should be an alternative path towards it (can be significantly longer) or a smooth progression curve towards it (not there at all. You're expected to consume significant amounts of information out of game, from third party tools and understand tons of things that are either vague or only available as tooltips over temporary tiny icons during a fight where you'll die if you stop paying attention, etc.)

Otherwise it's designed deliberately to be frustrating in an attempt to forcefully make people progress beyond what the game actually teaches. And that frustration naturally becomes vocal if not turning into the action of quitting. 

Your argument here only holds up if the content is properly optional. Just for showing off or some convenience or faster farming method. It's not legitimate as hard gatekeeping. 

Edited March 7, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Einsof.1457]

4 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

And that's where you're starting to either be intentionally obtuse or ignorant or something else along those lines.

Yes, but then it's not fine to lock a headline feature behind it. At the very least there should be an alternative path towards it (can be significantly longer) or a smooth progression curve towards it (not there at all. You're expected to consume significant amounts of information out of game, from third party tools and understand tons of things that are either vague or only available as tooltips over temporary tiny icons during a fight where you'll die if you stop paying attention, etc.)

Otherwise it's designed deliberately to be frustrating in an attempt to forcefully make people progress beyond what the game actually teaches. And that frustration naturally becomes vocal if not turning into the action of quitting. 

Your argument here only holds up if the content is properly optional. Just for showing off or some convenience or faster farming method. It's not legitimate as hard gatekeeping. 

If the turtle was required for any content whatsoever, I would agree with you, but it's not required for anything at all. For example, if the turtle was required in another meta that dropped items that you need for legendary crafting, then yeah that would be wrong. 

Edited March 7, 2022 by Einsof.1457

[Dami.5046]

Can't help but compare this thread to the skyscales ones, when people moaned how grindy it was and such a chore to get stacks of map currency and many people were quite vocal about it - as opposed to this thread when it's now 'you shouldn't expect anything for free lol' or 'learn to play'

The thing with the sky scale is that everyone could get it, everyone can gather, you could pay to skip the jumping puzzles. It just cost time in a lot of respects. Some people for their own reasons can't do strikes, end.

So why not just do it here? For a modest fee say 100g, buy something off a merch to skip the strike, job done and yes i'll buy that cute gem store turtle skin.

Because like the Skyscale it will be Anet looking to sell those shiny skins and they need people to have the turtle in the first place. And they will be the ones missing out, if people don't get one, ultimately.

 

Edited March 7, 2022 by Dami.5046

[Erise.5614]

12 minutes ago, Einsof.1457 said:

If the turtle was required for any content whatsoever, I would agree with you, but it's not required for anything at all. 

Again. Not sure if intentionally obtuse or what is going wrong here.

But just no. It's advertised on the same level as the story, all elite specs and far above fishing or jade bots. It's the only two player mount in the game. It's a unique feature. If I was expecting to be able to move around with a friend for any reason then it's a kitty move to lock it away.

It's also one of two items actually dealing damage to the barriers in DE and probably in other locations too (the other being waystations, which are locked behind another price tag and requiring extensive farming). You can buy EOD without access to gliders, griffon or skyscale. In which case the jetpack is going to be a massive difference in terms of mobility.

So no. Not required. But then again. Your weapon and specialization skills aren't all required either. You could probably play the game with like 10 in total. Yet I very much expect access to all of them without beating hardcore content. Is that unreasonable too? Because it's, you know, not required? 

Edit: Just read your edit about legendary crafting. And I have to say I find it hilarious you consider legendary items required but turtles not. If one of the two is purely about prestige and convenience it's legendary items. They are entirely optional and I'd wager the majority of players don't have a single one.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Einsof.1457]

10 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Again. Not sure if intentionally obtuse or what is going wrong here.

But just no. It's advertised on the same level as the story, all elite specs and far above fishing or jade bots. It's the only two player mount in the game. It's a unique feature. If I was expecting to be able to move around with a friend for any reason then it's a kitty move to lock it away.

It's also one of two items actually dealing damage to the barriers in DE and probably in other locations too (the other being waystations, which are locked behind another price tag and requiring extensive farming). You can buy EOD without access to gliders, griffon or skyscale. In which case the jetpack is going to be a massive difference in terms of mobility.

So no. Not required. But then again. Your weapon and specialization skills aren't all required either. You could probably play the game with like 10 in total. Yet I very much expect access to all of them without beating hardcore content. Is that unreasonable too? Because it's, you know, not required? 

Edit: Just read your edit about legendary crafting. And I have to say I find it hilarious you consider legendary items required but turtles not. If one of the two is purely about prestige and convenience it's legendary items. They are entirely optional and I'd wager the majority of players don't have a single one.

Just because it is advertised doesn't mean that you can assume that it will be a freebie. Sorry we can't see eye-to-eye on this. 

Edited March 7, 2022 by Einsof.1457

[castlemanic.3198]

1 minute ago, Einsof.1457 said:

Just because it is advertised doesn't mean that you can assume that it will be a freebie. Sorry we can't see eye-to-eye on this. 

no one is asking for a freebie, they're asking for changing the two raid like requirements to something open world casual players can play as.

 

and by open world casual, i mean the definition of casual that is 'players who don't play difficult content'.

[Einsof.1457]

2 minutes ago, castlemanic.3198 said:

no one is asking for a freebie, they're asking for changing the two raid like requirements to something open world casual players can play as.

 

and by open world casual, i mean the definition of casual that is 'players who don't play difficult content'.

I get it, but I disagree. Don't think we'll change eachothers minds. I prefer more stuff behind challenging content, personally. I like the motivation, sense of accomplishment, etc.  I hope to see more rewards funnel more players into strikes.

[Erise.5614]

17 minutes ago, Einsof.1457 said:

Just because it is advertised doesn't mean that you can assume that it will be a freebie. Sorry we can't see eye-to-eye on this. 

 

11 minutes ago, Einsof.1457 said:

I get it, but I disagree. Don't think we'll change eachothers minds. I prefer more stuff behind challenging content, personally. I like the motivation, sense of accomplishment, etc.  I hope to see more rewards funnel more players into strikes.

Just so much intellectual dishonesty.

You are saying that:

1. Anything shy of hardcore content is free and without effort.
2. Legendary items are required content.
3. Turtles are not required content. 
4. Anything shy of expansion defining features are not adequate rewards.
5. Gatekeeping is good because it forces more people to play content you enjoy. If they don't like it or disagree they are wrong and don't deserve access to an expansion defining feature. 

I get that you only care about others in so far that they increase your personal enjoyment. But just wow. That's just not a coherent set of standpoints. 

Edited March 7, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Einsof.1457]

12 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

 

Just so much intellectual dishonesty.

You are saying that:

1. Anything shy of hardcore content is free and without effort.
2. Legendary items are required content.
3. Turtles are not required content. 
4. Anything shy of expansion defining features are not adequate rewards.
5. Gatekeeping is good because it forces more people to play content you enjoy. If they don't like it or disagree they are wrong and don't deserve access to an expansion defining feature. 

I get that you only care about others in so far that they increase your personal enjoyment. But just wow. That's just not a coherent set of standpoints. 

1. I don't know what your definition of hardcore is. If by hardcore you mean, using your abilities appropriately,  and having a coherent build, then yes, I agree with #1.

2. I didn't say that, I just gave a wild example of something that if the turtle was required to get, I would be against. As it stands, the turtle is just a novelty and is not required for any further content.

3. True.

4. I don't understand what you are trying to say here. 

5. Gatekeeping is good because it forces players to evaluate if rewards are worth effort. All rewards in the game is gatekept in some way. People decide for themselves if the rewards are worth the effort. 

Edited March 7, 2022 by Einsof.1457

[castlemanic.3198]

12 minutes ago, Einsof.1457 said:

5. Gatekeeping is good because it forces players to evaluate if rewards are worth effort. All rewards in the game is gatekept in some way. People decide for themselves if the rewards are worth the effort. 

i'm gonna ignore 1-4 for the moment.

 

that's not what gatekeeping means. gatekeeping in this context is done by players, not by the developers. what gatekeeping means is thatplayers essentially tell other players that they are not allowed to enjoy something because of fairly illogical reasons. they're the people who say 'oh you like star wars, name every ship model'. thats the kind of gatekeeping we're talkingabout. the kind of gatekeeping you're doing by saying that only the people who can complete the meta and the strike mission should have access to the turtle.

 

that kind of gatekeeping is always bad and arbitrary. it's essentialy telling people they're not allowed to have fun. everyone should have fun with the turtle because it is fun. it's a cool fun thing to have.

 

i get and understand that you agree with the meta and strike requirements, but those requirements are simply too difficult for the majority of players to get over.

 

honestly i don't even know why im responding to you about this, your mind isn't gonna change. i just hope the developers listen to the playerbase and change the requirements of the turtle to make it more accessible to more people.

[Einsof.1457]

4 minutes ago, castlemanic.3198 said:

i'm gonna ignore 1-4 for the moment.

 

that's not what gatekeeping means. gatekeeping in this context is done by players, not by the developers. what gatekeeping means is thatplayers essentially tell other players that they are not allowed to enjoy something because of fairly illogical reasons. they're the people who say 'oh you like star wars, name every ship model'. thats the kind of gatekeeping we're talkingabout. the kind of gatekeeping you're doing by saying that only the people who can complete the meta and the strike mission should have access to the turtle.

 

that kind of gatekeeping is always bad and arbitrary. it's essentialy telling people they're not allowed to have fun. everyone should have fun with the turtle because it is fun. it's a cool fun thing to have.

 

i get and understand that you agree with the meta and strike requirements, but those requirements are simply too difficult for the majority of players to get over.

 

honestly i don't even know why im responding to you about this, your mind isn't gonna change. i just hope the developers listen to the playerbase and change the requirements of the turtle to make it more accessible to more people.

Okay thanks for clarifying that. The solution is to start your own LFG if the LFGs that are up don't meet your criteria. When I am learning content, I make an LFG and just label it "chill run" or "progression to kill". It fills. But yeah you are right. I do appreciate your time though. I guess I am one of those weird "casual hardcore" unicorns. 

Edited March 7, 2022 by Einsof.1457

[Erise.5614]

29 minutes ago, Einsof.1457 said:

1. I don't know what your definition of hardcore is. If by hardcore you mean, using your abilities appropriately,  and having a coherent build, then yes, I agree with #1.

Which is seriously disrespectful. On one side of people with handicaps of some sort who may not be able to participate in that way at all. And on the other side of time in general. Effort isn't just measured in skill. I know you do. But that's an extremely elitist attitude. 

29 minutes ago, Einsof.1457 said:

2. I didn't say that, I just gave a wild example of something that if the turtle was required to get, I would be against. As it stands, the turtle is just a novelty and is not required for any further content.

29 minutes ago, Einsof.1457 said:

3. True.

Ok. So legendary items aren't required? Why would locking them behind the turtle be a problem then?

They aren't required after all. Might as well lock them behind 50k achievement score! 

My point is that the lines you draw are arbitrary and just based on what you personally enjoy to do. Nothing is required. Not even playing the game. But by dictating what mechanics (not just novelty visuals) people want access to you just end up arguing in a very egocentric way. Focusing everything around yourself and your tastes. And ends up being incoherent as an argument due to that.

29 minutes ago, Einsof.1457 said:

4. I don't understand what you are trying to say here. 

ANet advertised the turtle as one of the defining features this expansion is going to have.

You said that gating it is good as hard content should be rewarded. Meaning you also implicitly said that rewards other than a headline expansion feature (such as the turtle) can not be good enough.

Otherwise why argue so hard to gatekeep the turtle?

29 minutes ago, Einsof.1457 said:

5. Gatekeeping is good because it forces players to evaluate if rewards are worth effort. All rewards in the game is gatekept in some way. People decide for themselves if the rewards are worth the effort. 

With the difference that skill is a very different kind of gate. By demanding a higher and higher barrier it's not just effort for doing something anymore. It's implicitly requiring a huge amount of investment and training that has to be calculated in.

This messes with that decision. Whether rewards are worth it. Because, first of all. You have to buy in and spend a significant amount of time before you can even understand the challenge and rewards. And then you have to factor in the time to learn everything necessary, learn all the necessary skills, train them until a significant part of them move over into muscle memory. And only then can you proceed towards the gatekept content. 

This drastically increases the likelihood of not being worth. Which means the mount is effectively not at all available. Despite being heavily advertised and possibly being a significant factor to the purchase decision. 

It's not something where you can play other content to unlock it. It's not like a Legendary weapon where you can just grind whatever you want and then just buy it. It's a feature (2 person mount) just not at all available to you.

It doesn't need to be necessary for anything else. This is a perfectly valid goal for someone to have. It's a deliberate decision by ANet to push people hard towards it beyond their usual frustration limit. Which is pretty disrespectful and a seriously risky move. 

Edit: And you're not special or a hybrid or anything. You're just an extremely hardcore player completely disregarding anyone not as hardcore as they are. Which is very common. That's where all the elitist attitudes come from. 

Edited March 7, 2022 by Erise.5614

[castlemanic.3198]

Just now, Einsof.1457 said:

Okay thanks for clarifying that. The solution is to start your own LFG if the LFGs that are up don't meet your criteria. When I am learning content, I make an LFG and just label it "chill run" or "progression to kill". It fills. 

you're not a casual player, you don't understand what its like to be a casual player. those solutions aren't enough, especially for people who have real world issues that prevent them from getting better at the game (such as people who have disabilities). the only solution (and i truly do mean only one solution) is to remove raid like requirements from the turtle acquisition. that means no dragons end meta, that means no strike mission requirement.

[AgentMoore.9453]

3 minutes ago, Einsof.1457 said:

I don't believe all games should cater to literally every demographic

Perhaps. But at minimum, they should cater to the majority of their players when it comes to flagship expansion features that they plan to monetize. Hardcore players in GW2 are a minority, even according to ArenaNet themselves. Truly baffling decisions all across EoD, but the handling of the turtle is perhaps the worst of them.

[Einsof.1457]

1 minute ago, Erise.5614 said:

Good point! I fully agree! They should remove raids as well as all hardcore content.

GW2 doesn't need to cater to that demographic. 

Why even have abilities at all? Auto attack should kill everything.