The Entire DE Meta debate SUMMARIZED!

[blackheartgary.8605]

"I just want my mount".

That's it. 

That's the entire reason for the megatons of forum posts, the debates the arguments, the angry players, etc etc.

"I just want my mount". 

Since the Launch of the Expansion, and the discovery that the Siege Turtle  collection begins after the successful completion of the DE meta, there have been countless arguments, thousands of words lobbed at each other, and a lot of disappointment from players.  Successful completion of the event gives you an egg, and this egg starts the turtle collection. 

Now, before anyone gets any ideas, I do not want the mount. it's not as important to me as the experience I get from playing the game itself.  The turtle mount is cool, indeed. yes it seats 2, yes, it can be used in open world combat.  Also, I get it... the DE meta is challenging. I love that it is challenging! Yes, please, feed me more of this! Win or lose, this is perhaps the single greatest fight-based event in guild wars 2!  can it be random? can it be frustrating? can it be overcome? the answer to all of these questions is YES. 

But the meta is not the subject of the debate. it's not the subject of the increased division amongst players.  That title goes to a small turtle egg. 

"I just want my mount". 

Here lies the sole reason why the bandaid gets torn off on a wound that has existed since Guild Wars 2 began, in reality.  There are many different kinds of players, and 2 specific types of players are arguing incessantly over working for what you want vs working hard for what you want.  This has happened several times before, and no doubt it will again. but in this particular instance, it is ENTIRELY about:

"i just want my mount". 

Think about it.  if the turtle was obtainable by any other means, this mt everest of debating would not be taking place. people would be less angry. those who didn't want to do the DE meta wouldn't have to, and those who did would have the groups they are expecting for this type of fight. 

 

[Wintermute.5408]

There is no debate to be had here. Mount or not, the meta is terrible, and sets a horrible precedent for any future maps. Under no circumstances should OW meta require role-centric subgroup organization, and have THAT level of RNG to it. There should not be groups asking for raid KP for an open world meta. If this new team at Anet doesn't realize that yet - well, they better learn now.

[Gadzooks.4687]

 

Quote

"I just want my mount". 

 

Nothing wrong with that.

 

People are willing to put for effort for mounts. The 2 flying ones are proof of that.

 

Edited March 7, 2022 by Gadzooks.4687

[InvaGir.9158]

I'm going to assume OP already got their turtle

So they joined the "git gud" train....CHOO CHOO

 

Anyways I'm a raider, this meta is not hard the phases are just kitten

Praise the RNG gods and ask for their mercy!

 

[blackheartgary.8605]

2 minutes ago, Wintermute.5408 said:

There is no debate to be had here. Mount or not, the meta is terrible, and sets a horrible precedent for any future maps. Under no circumstances should OW meta require role-centric subgroup organization, and have THAT level of RNG to it. There should not be groups asking for raid KP for an open world meta. If this new team at Anet doesn't realize that yet - well, they better learn now.

gonna be honest here... you're 100% correct on a few things here.  under no circumstances should an open world event require  role-centric subgroups. that's correct. and the DE meta doesn't ask you or expect you to have it, or at least that's not what my screen says when i enter the map.  This particular thing comes from  players themselves.

second, the thing about KP: again, this is players, and not the event. the players themselves are making those requirements, as they did in raids. I'm strongly against that concept. you cannot expect or demand from other players that they provide KP for an open world event. it's simple as that. and those that do will be disappointed  to know that while they may require that in their squad, it will not stop players without KP from participating in an open world event. Because, you know... it's open world. 

[blackheartgary.8605]

5 minutes ago, InvaGir.9158 said:

I'm going to assume OP already got their turtle

So they joined the "git gud" train....CHOO CHOO

 

Anyways I'm a raider, this meta is not hard the phases are just kitten

Praise the RNG gods and ask for their mercy!

 

you'd be wrong.  i don't have the mount. i am not interested in the mount. i love the event. i love the challenge. But thanks for assuming. 

[castlemanic.3198]

i shouldn't even respond, this is clearly bait, but here it goes.

 

you're not entirely wrong, but you are somewhat incorrect.

 

there's two parts to this debate, not just one. 'i want turtle' is absolutely the bigger of the two and the most prominently talked about right now. this is the biggest talking point and it's what i've personally resorted to discussing because i've become exhausted talking about this whole thing.

 

the other part that doesn't get talked about as much is 'DE's meta is too hard'.

 

i would have enjoyed the meta far more if i didn't have to worry about failing every time to get the turtle egg. but the meta would have still been too hard for casual players to enjoy. the biggest draw to the meta IS the turtle right now. remove the turtle and there would absolutely be fewer complaints overall because instead of talking about the meta, people would just avoid the meta in its entirety. that's what i absolutely would have done had the turtle not been locked behind DE's meta. i would have played it once, said no thank you, and then left it at that.

 

and i would have been wrong to do so.

 

because the meta being hard IS wrong. it's the wrong move in its entirety. but the people i've argued with about it on these forums have endlessly argued that it's not hard, despite not knowing how casual players play it, so the conversation shifted. and it was wrong to shift it away from the DE meta conversation because that in and of itself is a huge flaw in the expansion, because DE's meta should be accessible to the public to get the whole story, there's even an achievement called 'true ending' for playing the meta before finishing the story instances, showing that arenanet really wanted everyone to experience this meta event. however, it's obviously been flawed as evidenced by all the complaining about the meta event and the siege turtle's relation to it. there's something massively wrong with the way it currently is. this way arenanet gets what they wanted, people playing the content, but the casual players aren't playing it out of a desire for fun anymore, they're burning themselves out on a meta event that's very difficult and that's not rewarding if you fail at it. the meta can also be trolled by people too, not as much as before but still can be. arenanet have nerfed the fight once already and have said they're open to nerfing it again or removing the turtle entirely from the meta event, which means they know they did something wrong here. the community is right to be outraged at this and arenanet was right to nerf it once already. they just need to nerf it again, reduce boss health by a good amount or extend the timer on the boss fight (or both), but more importantly they need to also remove the rng behaviour of the final boss, i've heard and seen for myself that the rng invulnerability periods can be extreme when it comes to this boss fight. if the boss had regular mechanics not defined by rng, we would be seeing fewer complaints over all.

 

so yes, the turtle is one of the two reasons why we're having a debate over this issue to begin with, and by far it is the bigger of the two reasons anyone is talking about it. but the second reason is still there, the meta is still too hard for open world content, to the point that players are gatekeeping it by requiring KPs and LIs on this boss fight. and that should not be the case.

[blackheartgary.8605]

9 minutes ago, Gadzooks.4687 said:

 

 

Nothing wrong with that.

 

People are willing to put for effort for mounts. The 2 flying ones are proof of that.

 

never said there was anything wrong with that.  i said that the turtle is the reason for all of the grief.

[Erise.5614]

1 minute ago, blackheartgary.8605 said:

and those that do will be disappointed  to know that while they may require that in their squad, it will not stop players without KP from participating in an open world event. Because, you know... it's open world. 

They are pretty good at enforcing it.

Gather outside the map, kick everyone not fulfilling the requirements. Once full with only people fulfilling the requirement all port to DE at once. Go on the least populated map. Bully and / or pay players on the map to leave.

Yes, none of that should happen. But it does. No way to prevent it unless the event is casual friendly enough to not require it. 

[InvaGir.9158]

Just now, blackheartgary.8605 said:

you'd be wrong.  i don't have the mount. i am not interested in the mount. i love the event. i love the challenge. But thanks for assuming. 

 

Well I love a challenge too.

But ask yourself this:

What is the difference between "Difficulty" and "Chance"

[Johnsen.6253]

Im really angry wasting my whole weekend with this meta. Im frustrated and I about to reactivate my WOW account to rather play some classic. Im not raiding in GW2. But the meta is raid content that has been forced on us. GL with that, Im out.

 

Byebye

[Gibson.4036]

Just now, blackheartgary.8605 said:

never said there was anything wrong with that.  i said that the turtle is the reason for all of the grief.

For a good part of the grief.

I also see grief over the length, which makes it difficult to rerun to learn.

Over the fact that there aren't rewards along the way, which is odd, because ArenaNet seemed to have disovered in IBS that it was good to reward along the way for a long meta.

Over the randomness of phases.

[Cuks.8241]

The summary: Sea of Jade Salty Tears.

[mythical.6315]

Honestly, if the mount wasn’t locked behind it then the meta would have died like a day after release.  ArenaNet essentially created a meta that is doomed to fail in time unless they’re fully aware of that and it was intended. You know, intentionally make it challenging and only once enough players have completed it, nerf the meta. 

[Walle.6045]

After tagging up and organizing 8+ runs and having the meta only fail each time got really frustrated so decided to turn a meta raid into a raid group. 

Ended up forming 50 people 5 per group raid builds so alacrity, quickness, pdps, cdps per group in another map not to have Dragon's End instantly fill up. Each person had to ping their gear and build in chat, and then were assigned a group. This took about a hour and a half

Next the harder part waiting for a fresh instance to get in and get all 50 people in. This actually ended up being a bit easier than expected took about 45 minutes while those who were in were prepping the map areas to High and getting the 10% Buff 

All said and done we cleared the meta with 5 minutes and something seconds left 

NO ONE SHOULD HAVE TO DO THIS FOR AN OPEN WORLD META RUN

until its tuned will not be going back

Edited March 7, 2022 by Walle.6045

[blackheartgary.8605]

I remember when Triple Trouble launched, that there was this feeling that the world boss event was way too hard to complete. It was an open world event, requiring 3 groups to split off and  simultaneously attempt to take down 3 heads of a Wurm.  Back then, it originally felt unbeatable. 

Overt time,  teams began organizing, strategies were forming, and  attempts were being made to test out these strategies.  a LOT were unsuccessful,  and yeah... people did get a bit salty over it.  if i recall correctly, there was even talk that TT was too hard. Talk that TT didn't appeal very much to the casual player for the level of difficulty it presented. 

and then people learned how to defeat TT.  repeatedly.  and Yes, it still fails  today sometimes. 

The Chak Gerent fell to a similar pattern. Anet Stepped in at one point and nerfed it.  the Gerent didn't have as strong a bite anymore and people began playing it more. 

the same exact thing is happening here with DE. 

[Pretty Pixie.8603]

I like how you blithely disregard the RNG destroying people’s fun, or the level of preparation required which isn’t a possibilty for everyone.

 

Just so you can tar everyone wih the ‘you’re all infantile’ brush.

[Peterson.5172]

1 minute ago, blackheartgary.8605 said:

I remember when Triple Trouble launched, that there was this feeling that the world boss event was way too hard to complete. It was an open world event, requiring 3 groups to split off and  simultaneously attempt to take down 3 heads of a Wurm.  Back then, it originally felt unbeatable. 

Overt time,  teams began organizing, strategies were forming, and  attempts were being made to test out these strategies.  a LOT were unsuccessful,  and yeah... people did get a bit salty over it.  if i recall correctly, there was even talk that TT was too hard. Talk that TT didn't appeal very much to the casual player for the level of difficulty it presented. 

and then people learned how to defeat TT.  repeatedly.  and Yes, it still fails  today sometimes. 

The Chak Gerent fell to a similar pattern. Anet Stepped in at one point and nerfed it.  the Gerent didn't have as strong a bite anymore and people began playing it more. 

the same exact thing is happening here with DE. 

TT gets done like twice a week or something from one group organising, is this where we should let DE go?

 

but you are right, give me the mount and you can make DE harder for all i care, hell i'll help you petition anet for harder DE with more rewards

[blackheartgary.8605]

5 minutes ago, Pretty Pixie.8603 said:

I like how you blithely disregard the RNG destroying people’s fun, or the level of preparation required which isn’t a possibilty for everyone.

 

Just so you can tar everyone wih the ‘you’re all infantile’ brush.

quite the contrary. 

people like mounts. they're actually pretty cool, and a great addition to the game. Maps were designed around their use. I have no issue with people wanting their mounts. never did. 

My point... is that if that turtle was not connected to DE, the arguing would  not be as loud. and i am not wrong. yes there would be a debate about the event itself. but by and large, there would be less arguing if the mount was not a part of the event. period.

 

Edited March 7, 2022 by blackheartgary.8605

[InvaGir.9158]

2 minutes ago, blackheartgary.8605 said:

I remember when Triple Trouble launched, that there was this feeling that the world boss event was way too hard to complete. It was an open world event, requiring 3 groups to split off and  simultaneously attempt to take down 3 heads of a Wurm.  Back then, it originally felt unbeatable. 

Overt time,  teams began organizing, strategies were forming, and  attempts were being made to test out these strategies.  a LOT were unsuccessful,  and yeah... people did get a bit salty over it.  if i recall correctly, there was even talk that TT was too hard. Talk that TT didn't appeal very much to the casual player for the level of difficulty it presented. 

and then people learned how to defeat TT.  repeatedly.  and Yes, it still fails  today sometimes. 

The Chak Gerent fell to a similar pattern. Anet Stepped in at one point and nerfed it.  the Gerent didn't have as strong a bite anymore and people began playing it more. 

the same exact thing is happening here with DE. 

 

You're right there is a pattern, or a couple

they're random and unpredictable....which only means they're based on luck

Luck is the key to actually succeeding in finishing this meta

And you know what. the turtle is just a novetly for me. This meta is taunting me...I want to beat it and I want it fixed first!

 

I'm against nerfing this event completely and they need to remove the random phasing from side to side whenever this kitten dragon feels like it

maybe...maybe it will be possible.

 

So yes

Anet don't nerf it....fix it

 

Edited March 7, 2022 by InvaGir.9158

[Pretty Pixie.8603]

Quote

2 minutes ago, blackheartgary.8605 said:

quite the contrary. 

people like mounts. they're actually pretty cool, and a great addition to the game. Maps were designed around their use. I have no issue with people wanting their mounts. never did. 

My point... is that if that turtle was not connected to DE, the arguing would  not be as loud. and i am not wrong. yes there would be a debate about the event itself. but by and large, there would be less arguing if the mount was not a part of the event. period.

 

 

 
That’s not the contrary. Your post clearly disregards the other issues. Not getting the egg (you do not get the mount on event completion) is a consequence of the meta being considered unfair/too hard/determined by RNG. The first thing that hits people is:’this isn’t fun/unfair/wasting my time. Not getting the egg compounding the impact of that.

 

That might come across as ‘I want my mount’, and might even be that in many cases but you frame it in a belittling manner that ignores the other factors.

[Freya.9075]

I have the Mount but I do think the meta needs adjustments. The meta itself has huge potential.  It would be so much more fun if done right. Give them some time to figure out everything and it’ll be better. As it is now it really isn’t for casual players with limited playtime and way to reliant on luck with RNG attacks 

[blackheartgary.8605]

1 minute ago, Pretty Pixie.8603 said:

 
That’s not the contrary. Your post clearly disregards the other issues. Not getting the egg (you do not get the mount on event completion) is a consequence of the meta being considered unfair/too hard/determined by RNG. The first thing that hits people is:’this isn’t fun/unfair/wasting my time. Not getting the egg compounding the impact of that.

 

That might come across as ‘I want my mount’, and might even be that in many cases but you frame it in a belittling manner that ignores the other factors.

Think about this for a brief moment, if you will:

first, let's strip the egg from the event. By doing this, those who feel they are required to do something they do not want to do no longer have to do it. 

second, let's  look at the event. it does not ask for KP. it does not ask for builds. it does not ask for LI. Players do that.  The event is not to blame for the choices players make in how to organize their teams, as the event does not demand those things. 

Third, yes it's hard. So was gerent. Yes it has RNG and that should be looked at.  as far as it being fair or unfair, that's not my call.  The fairness or unfairness of a thing is determined by the individual's opinion. 

I am simply stating a fact. if you remove the turtle (or egg) from the event, there would be less arguing about it. the focus would then be on the mechanics of the event itself.  I don't feel superior to anyone. i see things in their complexity and then bring them down to their simplest form. in short, i summarize.  hence the post. 🙂

 

[decease.3215]

No the actual debate is "do you have a elite raid guild"  

 

If the answer is YES.  Then you get turtle

 

If answer is NO,   then f##ko#f.  No turtle for you

[mythical.6315]

2 hours ago, blackheartgary.8605 said:

I remember when Triple Trouble launched, that there was this feeling that the world boss event was way too hard to complete. It was an open world event, requiring 3 groups to split off and  simultaneously attempt to take down 3 heads of a Wurm.  Back then, it originally felt unbeatable. 

Overt time,  teams began organizing, strategies were forming, and  attempts were being made to test out these strategies.  a LOT were unsuccessful,  and yeah... people did get a bit salty over it.  if i recall correctly, there was even talk that TT was too hard. Talk that TT didn't appeal very much to the casual player for the level of difficulty it presented. 

and then people learned how to defeat TT.  repeatedly.  and Yes, it still fails  today sometimes. 

The Chak Gerent fell to a similar pattern. Anet Stepped in at one point and nerfed it.  the Gerent didn't have as strong a bite anymore and people began playing it more. 

the same exact thing is happening here with DE. 

Power creep with HoT happened. 

The issue with DE is that there is no new strategy to be developed other than bring more DPS.  
 

Actually, it’s very similar to Chak Gerent before it was nerfed as the only way to beat it was to do more DPS.  The reasons for why more DPS was needed for Gerent and is needed DE are different.  DE needs more DPS due to the lack of enough time to damage the boss and not due to an over scaling  

 

Edited March 7, 2022 by mythical.6315