The Increasing Toxicity in the Community

[yann.1946]

1 hour ago, Zok.4956 said:

Its good for you, that you liked it. But others maybe do not like to be "hard pushed" into something they already know they don't like.

The point is that things people know what they dont like isnt always what they dont like. Thats why some pushes are nessecary.

1 hour ago, Zok.4956 said:

When HoT released, Anet tried to "hard push" (or just push) all players into more challenging content as a stepping stone for Colin Johansens PvP / eSports ambitions for the game. The result was that a lot of players just left the game and the studio had to do some reversal of their strategy.

Yes, they pushed to hard in that case. But the answer to a push which goes to far isnt not pushing at all.

[Hesione.9412]

4 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

It's always been there.

There have always been toxic behaviours in both the casual and the hardcore community, my theory on why it seems more common now is because so many people are hitting a wall with the new meta event.
They're just angry, frustrated.. and they're venting that out into the game and sometimes onto other players.

Truth is, venting is a very healthy thing for people to do.. it helps them deal with stress, frustration and allows them to cope when they feel stuck.
You don't want people bottling that kind of thing up, that's how controllers end up getting thrown across rooms and severely, genuinely offensive things get said... it's not good to bottle things up like that, and it's borderline cruel and inhumane to force people to.

I can understand how people may not like seeing people vent and make jokes or say inappropriate things.
That's perfectly fair and you shouldn't have to put up with stuff like that if you find it distasteful and offensive.
It's also fair to say these people should just leave the game and cool off when they are so irritated, maybe they should do that, it probably would help some of them.. but you can't force them to do it.

But with that said, it is also fair for them to point out that if you have a problem with the things they say or the jokes they make, then you do have the freedom to right click on their names and block them so you can't see it anymore.
By all means report them for bad language too if you feel like any comment aimed at you was completely undeserved, that's more than fair as well.

Blocking people is more than sufficient to remove jokes and things you find offensive from the chat.. or more specifically from your experience.
Anet give us this tool so they don't have to spend time and resources pouring over mountains of chat logs and penalizing players for every little thing they've said or done that may offend someone else.

The simple fact here and this goes well beyond Guildwars 2 and all other games, is that this whole subject about what it offensive and what isn't offensive.. what you can say and what you can't say is a ridiculous overcomplicated mess that is largely based on factors and feelings that are constantly changing on a hourly basis.
It's irrational and illogical to think anything like that can be or should be controlled when free will exists and free expression is a fundamental human right.
And there is no path what so ever where trying to suppress peoples free will and free expression doesn't make you the villain in that scenario.

What it really comes down to is a simple difference in sense of humour, some people find just about everything funny, other people find just about everything offensive.. and the vast majority of people vary somewhere in the middle of those extremes.

I'm not making excuses for anyone's bad behaviour, harassing people is not ok.. bullying people is not ok.. excluding people is not ok..
But censoring people is also not ok.. and it's not the answer either.

If you find the things other people say offensive or distasteful then use the tools available to you and block them.
That is pretty much the only thing you can do, tailor your game to your preferences and leave other people to do the same.

The bigger issue around this event and the real toxic behaviour that do need addressing are not the jokes and the edgyness that some people put into the chat to cheer themselves up, as  said above you even have the ability to not see if it bothers you.

The bigger problem is the intentional sabotage of the event, and bullying around it.. the real toxic behaviours.
The Trolls: Those who intentionally run down the clock in the wisp phase to make the event fail.
The Profiteers: Those who refuse to participate in the event and demand payment to leave the map.
The Elitists: Those who bully and exclude people in an attempt to get them to leave the map.
The lazybones: Those who die and refuse to waypoint, expecting to be revived.. come on guys it's been 10 years we should be past this by now XD
The Leechers: Those who hide and don't actively participate and just want to rush in and get the rewards at the end.
The Egotists: People who attack and blame everyone else for the event failing.

These be some of the behaviours that are far more of a problem and actually impact the event very negatively.
As you can see from just this list alone there is no one community causing problems here, it's not a hardcore player vs casual player problem.
And we need to stop looking at it that way because it is only fuelling the elitism and toxicity behaviours that are dividing this community and tearing it apart.
There are Casuals and Hardcore players on the same page about this meta event, on both sides when it comes to the "should this event be nerfed" discussion.

Don't let the toxic behaviours of selfish or arrogant players blind you to that, and don't allow those behaviours to continue in your communities.
Call it out when you see it and report it.

Two things that stand out:

1. It's not "venting" to type derogatory/insulting comments in say, or map, or squad chat. It's being derogatory/insulting. Venting is more like "this is the 10th time the event has failed for me, I'm tired of doing this event for nothing". Or: "this meta seems really poorly designed for an open world event". 

 

2. Player A shouldn't feel the need to block Player B because Player B is being toxic. Player B made a conscious decision to type something nasty in say/map/squad chat. Player B needs to learn self-control.

 

3. the "but" in ... "but censoring people is also not ok" negates everything you typed before the but. You then go on to say that "edgyness" is acceptable behaviour. It is not. Edginess is just another word for a person being horrible.

 

4. I had problems coming back to the fight when I died and went to a wp to revive because I have no idea how to get up to that platform in the first place. I also didn't have the bot waypoint unlocked, so putting down a personal wp was not an option.

 

5. An event where people can troll by doing the wrong thing *and make the event fail" is a poorly designed event.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

46 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

The point is that things people know what they dont like isnt always what they dont like. Thats why some pushes are nessecary.

Yes, they pushed to hard in that case. But the answer to a push which goes to far isnt not pushing at all.

 

I am going to respond to these two atm then add in a third response with the one you posed to me earlier when I was asleep. I am just bad at forum formating , so you won't see it. It is all linked though.

1. I disagree with that statement because people are not stupid. A lot know what they want and don't want in a game. So no push should be necessary at all. I know I will never like PvP in games, so being pushed to WvW where I have to actively kill other players is something I know I will never like. Pushing me there even slightly would just make me quit the game or not do it at all. I also know over the years I don't like raiders for being backstabbers. I have been in too many games where raiders have left friendships in a guild for years to join a stupid static for the stupid shinies. So, it doesn't matter what you are really like imo. I will never like raiders, so being pushed into raid content in any way will make me despise it because of the people.

2. With the top being said, I think no pushing with alternatives is the answer instead because people already know what they like and dislike from just existing and personal experiences.

3.As for your lording comment, it is and isn't. It depends on the context of it. If a player is being forced to do something, and people set up gear checks and dps requirements. Then I say it is not lording at all and they are being elitist and toxic. Like the strike example with people setting those up. Something that the game forces people to do should be easy and have none of that from people otherwise I will call it toxicity.

For stuff I never plan to do like raids and lv100 Fractals, I am more lenient to those because that stuff is optional in my eyes. You don't need to do those at all to play the game or get any mounts. And, I can make ascended armor through normal game-play, so I don't give two fudges about lego armor.

Edited March 13, 2022 by Doctor Hide.6345

[Zok.4956]

42 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

The point is that things people know what they dont like isnt always what they dont like. Thats why some pushes are nessecary.

I understand, it helped you. But just because you want to be pushed, somehow, sometimes, does not mean that others have to feel the same about being pushed. Or that "be pushed" in general is neccessary, or that it is even "the one, right way" how a game, this game, should be.

[ArchonWing.9480]

59 minutes ago, Hesione.9412 said:

1. It's not "venting" to type derogatory/insulting comments in say, or map, or squad chat. It's being derogatory/insulting. Venting is more like "this is the 10th time the event has failed for me, I'm tired of doing this event for nothing". Or: "this meta seems really poorly designed for an open world event". 

100% agree. People have to take responsibility for what they say and not make excuses for behaving terribly.

And people have no right to harass other people in game. We all agreed to follow certain rules when using this service.

 

 

Edited March 13, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[yann.1946]

6 minutes ago, Doctor Hide.6345 said:

 

I am going to respond to these two atm then add in a third response with the one you posed to me earlier when I was asleep. I am just bad at forum formating , so you won't see it. It is all linked though.

 

6 minutes ago, Doctor Hide.6345 said:

1. I disagree with that statement because people are not stupid.

It has nothing to do with stupidity though, your later responses exemplify this a lot.

6 minutes ago, Doctor Hide.6345 said:

A lot know what they want and don't want in a game. So no push should be necessary at all. I know I will never like PvP in games, so being pushed to WvW where I have to actively kill other players is something I know I will never like. Pushing me there even slightly would just make me quit the game or not do it at all.

 

6 minutes ago, Doctor Hide.6345 said:

I also know over the years I don't like raiders for being backstabbers. I have been in too many games where raiders have left friendships in a guild for years to join a stupid static for the stupid shinies. So, it doesn't matter what you are really like imo.

This is a good example why people can be wrong about what they enjoy. You have a viseceral reaction to raiders because of bad experiences you had(which is natural), but 

A) Not all raiders are backstabbers, i would say most arent.

B) Whether raiders are backstabbers has very little to do with the content being fun for you. It is entirely possible to do raids with just people you like.

6 minutes ago, Doctor Hide.6345 said:

I will never like raiders, so being pushed into raid content in any way will make me despise it because of the people.

 

6 minutes ago, Doctor Hide.6345 said:

2. With the top being said, I think no pushing with alternatives is the answer instead because people already know what they like and dislike from just existing and personal experiences.

Sometimes this is the way to go, whille sometimes it is not in my opinion.

Your point 1) is a perfect example why sometimes leaving no alternatives is nessecary.

6 minutes ago, Doctor Hide.6345 said:

3.As for your lording comment, it is and isn't. It depends on the context of it. If a player is being forced to do something, and people set up gear checks and dps requirements. Then I say it is not lording at all and they are being elitist and toxic. Like the strike example with people setting those up. Something that the game forces people to do should be easy and have none of that from people otherwise I will call it toxicity.

Im sorry i have some reading comprehension problems with this part. Could you rewrite it a little?

6 minutes ago, Doctor Hide.6345 said:

For stuff I never plan to do like raids and lv100 Fractals, I am more lenient to those because that stuff is optional in my eyes. You don't need to do those at all to play the game or get any mounts. And, I can make ascended armor through normal game-play, so I don't give two fudges about lego armor.

 

[Astralporing.1957]

14 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

The point is that things people know what they dont like isnt always what they dont like. Thats why some pushes are nessecary.

Incentives, sure (with an option to avoid it using more effort). Pushes? Not really. And that's because while people sometimes not realize they do not really dislike the things they do, most of the time they are right. "Pushing", when it works (and often it does not), it usually works on people that don't have all that much opinion about something. It rarely works on those that already have some strong opinion about it though. And even for the former, you have to be very careful about how strongly do you intend to push, because on many people the very act of pushing may cause them to dislike the content they otherwise would have been fine with. That's why incentives work far better, because they do not cause the unavoidable negative reactions.

 

14 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

Yes, they pushed to hard in that case. But the answer to a push which goes to far isnt not pushing at all.

See above. The answer is either not to push at all (and find other ways to encourage people), or do it in a way that the person pushed does not see that.

[yann.1946]

11 minutes ago, Zok.4956 said:

I understand, it helped you. But just because you want to be pushed, somehow, sometimes, does not mean that others have to feel the same about being pushed.

I completely understand not everyone wants to be pushed, and i dont just think it helped me so it will help everyone.

My thoughts on this can be summerized as follows

A) It is healthy for the overall health of the playerbase to be nudged outside of their comfort zone.

B) Sometimes some pushing is nessecary for that.

 

Ofcourse there is an amount of pushing which is to much, its a balancing act, but just because you got some negative responses doesnt mean you crossed the line.

11 minutes ago, Zok.4956 said:

Or that "be pushed" in general is neccessary,

I think that for some pushing is nessecary sometimes.

11 minutes ago, Zok.4956 said:

or that it is even "the one, right way" how a game, this game, should be.

I never made that claim, im just saying that i think it is healthy for the playerbaase to be pushed outside their comfortzone.

[yann.1946]

7 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Incentives, sure (with an option to avoid it using more effort). Pushes? Not really. And that's because while people sometimes not realize they do not really dislike the things they do, most of the time they are right. "Pushing", when it works (and often it does not), it usually works on people that don't have all that much opinion about something. It rarely works on those that already have some strong opinion about it though. And even for the former, you have to be very careful about how strongly do you intend to push, because on many people the very act of pushing may cause them to dislike the content they otherwise would have been fine with. That's why incentives work far better, because they do not cause the unavoidable negative reactions.

 

See above. The answer is either not to push at all (and find other ways to encourage people), or do it in a way that the person pushed does not see that.

This i agree with, its a very thin line. The strike for the turtle for example wouldnt have been seen as such a problem in general if DE wasnt nessecary. Ofcourse there would still be some bbacklash, but backlash within accapteble levels.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

13 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

This is a good example why people can be wrong about what they enjoy. You have a viseceral reaction to raiders because of bad experiences you had(which is natural), but 

A) Not all raiders are backstabbers, i would say most arent.

B) Whether raiders are backstabbers has very little to do with the content being fun for you. It is entirely possible to do raids with just people you like.

 

Im sorry i have some reading comprehension problems with this part. Could you rewrite it a little?

 

 

Well, I also know I don't like challenging content as well. The raiders just add to it. I am not a challenge seeker. I mod single player games to be in god mode basically because that is what I enjoy. I don't enjoy feeling weak. And like I said I don't care if they are backstabbers or not. I would not trust them because of my past regardless. I also hate visual noise in raids as well. They go overboard even with lowered settings to the point I can't see poop. GW2 is not the only one who does this in thinking more lights and visual noise so the player can't see is a good design. I can't stand it.

 

And sure, you know how to get the turtle the strike is required? That is what I am talking about. Some players are putting up their stupid requirements for people to do it with them which is toxicity and elitism in my eyes. So, yes, forcing those players to accept others would be lording in that case for the greater good because it is well forced requirement to get the turtle. You already know my take on the non forced optional stuff.

Edited March 13, 2022 by Doctor Hide.6345

[yann.1946]

3 minutes ago, Doctor Hide.6345 said:

 

Well, I also know I don't like challenging content as well. The raiders just add to it. I am not a challenge seeker. I mod single player games to be in god mode basically because that is what I enjoy. I don't enjoy feeling weak. And like I said I don't care of they are backstabbers or not. I would not trust them because of my past regardless. I also hate visual noise in raids as well. They go overboard even with lowered settings to the point I can't see poop. GW2 is not the only one who does this in thinking more lights and visual noise so the player can't see is a good design. I can't stand it.

If there was a strike you would enjoy, do you think you will find it out on your own or not?

3 minutes ago, Doctor Hide.6345 said:

And sure, you know how to get the turtle the strike is required? That is what I am talking about. Some players are putting up their stupid requirements for people to do it with them which is toxicity and elitism in my eyes.

 

3 minutes ago, Doctor Hide.6345 said:

So, yes, forcing those players to accept others would be lording in that case for the greater good because it is well forced requirement to get the turtle. You already know my take on the non forced optional stuff.

Ah, you consider the forcing people to accept everyone lording for the greater good. I guess i understand your position more.

Personally i consider your position more toxic then people putting up req in lfg (especially because there are non req runs for the turtle last time i checked) but i understand your basis for why you think this way.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

2 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

If there was a strike you would enjoy, do you think you will find it out on your own or not?

If I am to answer honestly, I won't enjoy any of them because I don't like 10 man content at all in MMOs. I prefer 4 man and below for my personal comfort zone. So I will probably never find it because I don't seek it.

[kharmin.7683]

1 hour ago, yann.1946 said:

I completely understand not everyone wants to be pushed, and i dont just think it helped me so it will help everyone.

My thoughts on this can be summerized as follows

A) It is healthy for the overall health of the playerbase to be nudged outside of their comfort zone.

B) Sometimes some pushing is nessecary for that.

 

 

I would think it would  be more healthy for a game to allow players to play in ways that they like/prefer rather than nudging or pushing players into content that they don't which might cause them to quit playing.

[ArchonWing.9480]

5 hours ago, Xorthos.6947 said:

Eh the toxicity level was kinda creeping up before EoD.   Some folks are getting very elitist in PUG content.

 

Had a buddy of mine kicked out of an open LFG "easy three" Strikes squad about a month ago because he was asked to link his spec and  gear, and was not using full ascended, and a snowcrows meta build.  Had never seen that before.

Have seen some rather strange dictators that ask for way too much.

I would bet  they are actually seeking to get carried and it would have been a bad experience anyways.

Nothing of value was lost

Edited March 13, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, yann.1946 said:

This i agree with, its a very thin line. The strike for the turtle for example wouldnt have been seen as such a problem in general if DE wasnt nessecary. Ofcourse there would still be some bbacklash, but backlash within accapteble levels.

I don't agree here as well. By now players generally already know whether they like strikes or not - and it so happens that most do not. That strike is not so different from what we've had before to change anyone's mind. As such, the alternative to this strike is going to be even more necessary - after all, the event can (and will) get nerfed, but the strike will still be a strike.

1 hour ago, yann.1946 said:

If there was a strike you would enjoy, do you think you will find it out on your own or not?

Yes. But it would have been a strike most people that want strikes would not enjoy. I just do not like the overorganized 10-man content at higher "challenge" levels the small hardcore part of the community seems to enjoy. I prefer more laid-back content to play in. And that's even though i am perfectly capable of doing those - i just absolutely hate the "preparation" part.

 

Edited March 13, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[pallas.8150]

I failed on the Dragon's End meta several times. Each of those failures was met by lots of people thanking each other for the attempt or providing great feedback for the next time.

I have definitely met toxic ppl on here - overall, though, GW2 is blessed to have some really stellar players.

[Raskol.3014]

Just my 2 cents about toxicity: there is no way I'm giving Strikes another chance. I'll just stick to T4 knowing that even if things go bad people won't hate on me or anyone else.

[Veya.2871]

11 hours ago, yann.1946 said:

THere is a point to be made there, i do think that with strikes (and mostly raids) there is a strong stigma that hangs over these gamemodes which is not matching reality. (The community is absolutely not as toxic as these fora pretend they are). This makes it that you need to have a pretty hard push te get people who might enjoy it but are turned of by community perception to try it. The same is true for PvP modes for example. Originally i had this idea i hated pvp for example, but after doing some WvW for the gift of battle and (i forgot wat i started pvp for) i started enjoying these gamemodes from time to time. Being pushed into them has had a net positive gameplay experience for me.

So I been reading the thread silently as I usually do, and I feel the need to comment on this, I personally had the opposite experience with WvW, I did it for Warclaw*, it was a miserable experience, even with boosters it took far longer than I feel it should've taken, I hated every moment of being there, and I never want to do it again, so far as making me decide that I will never get Legendaries because they require Gift of Battle and I refuse to go back there, being "pushed" didn't help me, because I know myself, I have played dozens of MMOs before (and after) GW2, I know what I like and what I don't like in a game, and forcing me to do something I know I don't like isn't going to make me happy, only make me miserable, and I want the game to continue trusting that the playerbase will know themselves well enough rather than try to force people to do things they don't want to do.

*: (and I understand Warclaw is useless outside of WvW, I don't care for that, I view mounts as a way to have proper pets without needing to be a Ranger so I just wanted to have a big angry cat, and this is the same for the turtle)

[Farohna.6247]

On 3/11/2022 at 4:59 PM, fixit.7189 said:

agree, there seems to be an influx of really nasty people since EoD release but...that's probably due to tourists who will hopefully (fingers crossed) go back to their original mmos soon.

Agreed.  Feel like we have the usual new expansion people that pop in, play it for a bit, then leave that occur in all games, and are fairly dreadful in all games.  Some trolls, some who just enjoy being rude.  Block and nothing to see here citizens of Tyria (and Cantha).

[Alcatraznc.3869]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

I don't agree here as well. By now players generally already know whether they like strikes or not - and it so happens that most do not.

 

Where's your proof for that ? If you say "forum" then it is not a representation of the community. I have seen a fair share of player who didnt want to play strike, tried Kaineng for the turtle and ended up liking strikes.

 

But the most vocal playerbase refuses to even attempt them and cry outloud they have to do something they've never tried and never will.

[kharmin.7683]

1 hour ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

 

Where's your proof for that ? If you say "forum" then it is not a representation of the community. I have seen a fair share of player who didnt want to play strike, tried Kaineng for the turtle and ended up liking strikes.

 

But the most vocal playerbase refuses to even attempt them and cry outloud they have to do something they've never tried and never will.

Proof is in the pudding, as they say.  What content is Anet focused on producing?  If strikes were so popular, we would probably have a lot more of them.  Instead, we get more OW content.  I trust that Anet has the metrics to know where the majority of the population is spending their time/attention/money.

[Alcatraznc.3869]

3 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Proof is in the pudding, as they say.  What content is Anet focused on producing?  If strikes were so popular, we would probably have a lot more of them.  Instead, we get more OW content.  I trust that Anet has the metrics to know where the majority of the population is spending their time/attention/money.

 

We get more OW content because that is the core content of this game. Anet has added strike mission for EoD and the revamp of crystal made it clear they want strike to be a gamemode people play in so they made all that crystal thing more clear.. We are still waiting for strike CM for EoD and there's nothing telling us they'll never add more strikes. 

 

It is way too early to claim "sTrIkE iS dEaD" when Anet is focusing on making DE more easier for ""casual"". Then they'll adress the reward issue. Strike right now isnt on their list of priority. And maybe it is also because strike are overall fine as they are.

Edited March 14, 2022 by Alcatraznc.3869

[Fallesafe.5932]

Oh God. I've been away from this game for a year and a half. And I see nothing has changed. We've still got people who won't make the slightest effort projecting their "toxicity" onto everyone around them while trying to micromanage their thoughts, behavior and playstyle...

[battledrone.8315]

8 hours ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

 

Where's your proof for that ? If you say "forum" then it is not a representation of the community. I have seen a fair share of player who didnt want to play strike, tried Kaineng for the turtle and ended up liking strikes.

 

But the most vocal playerbase refuses to even attempt them and cry outloud they have to do something they've never tried and never will.

do you want to buy this chocolate covered bacon with licorice sauce and marinated cheese?

how about a small bite...come on...you KNOW you want it

[Zok.4956]

11 hours ago, yann.1946 said:

A) It is healthy for the overall health of the playerbase to be nudged outside of their comfort zone.

B) Sometimes some pushing is nessecary for that.

I think that for some pushing is nessecary sometimes.

im just saying that i think it is healthy for the playerbaase to be pushed outside their comfortzone.

And that is where we disagree. I think it is totally legit and "valid" gameplay if people want to stay in their comfort zone in a video game (that was more or less designed also for this type of playing) in their leisure time. I (and I think maybe most players) do not play to serve some "greater good" (as in "a healthy playerbase") but just to have some fun.
And: If players are pushed (again and again and again) into some content/sub-community they do not like and they feel miserable because of this, it is not really "healthy for the playerbase".

Please don't get me wrong: I care about the game. But in the end it is Anets job to make a game I have fun playing, if they want my money (again in the future). I am the customer, not the worker and not the product.