Ley Line Energy and Void "energy" are the same thing?

[Logos.5603]

What is the difference between the magic coursing through the ley lines and the Void? The Void is defined as "raw" magic. This is the magic that Soo Won separated. So, unseparated magic. And the magic coursing through the ley lines is fused magic (unseparated magic). But what then is the difference between Ley Line Magic and Void Magic? If they are different it seems that there is another element that makes them so. What could this be?

Note: It isn't enough to simply say that one is chaotic and the other ordered since "chaotic" seems only to refer to the fact that it is unseparated magic, and that's what ley energy is.

The reason I ask is because if there is no difference then ley energy is Void...and well that is problematic lore-wise (I think).

Edited March 21, 2022 by Logos.5603

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

Short answer: We don't really know.

Long answer: Soo-Won, then the Elder Dragons, and now Aurene all filter the Void magic into six separate domains, which then mingle together to become ley-line. Soo-Won didn't filter the Void perfectly, which is why she made the Elder Dragons and split the burden between them, however they too didn't filter it perfectly, resulting in them going mad over dozens of millennia. Aurene seems to filter it perfectly - or at least at a much, much better rate.

The difference between the two is clear: the Void breaks apart and absorbs all it touches, and ley-lines don't. But what gets "filtered out" is, simply put, never explained. It's only called out as "corrupted" versus "cleansed" / "purified" combined magic.

Which is a weird distinction because the Void isn't corrupted - but it's likely just referencing the Dragonvoid, which by my understanding is the Void "tainted" by the Elder Dragons' personalities (which were in turn afflicted by the burden of the Void - very circular in nature, or rather spiraling in nature as it goes further down the proverbial drain).

 

In the end, all we know is that "ley-lines" is "all magic in a manner that won't break apart the world" and Void is "all magic in a manner that will break part the world."

Unless I missed something in some side achievement.

Edited March 21, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Logos.5603]

57 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Short answer: We don't really know.

Long answer: Soo-Won, then the Elder Dragons, and now Aurene all filter the Void magic into six separate domains, which then mingle together to become ley-line. Soo-Won didn't filter the Void perfectly, which is why she made the Elder Dragons and split the burden between them, however they too didn't filter it perfectly, resulting in them going mad over dozens of millennia. Aurene seems to filter it perfectly - or at least at a much, much better rate.

The difference between the two is clear: the Void breaks apart and absorbs all it touches, and ley-lines don't. But what gets "filtered out" is, simply put, never explained. It's only called out as "corrupted" versus "cleansed" / "purified" combined magic.

Which is a weird distinction because the Void isn't corrupted - but it's likely just referencing the Dragonvoid, which by my understanding is the Void "tainted" by the Elder Dragons' personalities (which were in turn afflicted by the burden of the Void - very circular in nature, or rather spiraling in nature as it goes further down the proverbial drain).

 

In the end, all we know is that "ley-lines" is "all magic in a manner that won't break apart the world" and Void is "all magic in a manner that will break part the world."

Unless I missed something in some side achievement.

 

Oh, Ok. Mmm...that's a bummer. 

I was just wondering whether we are given some information as to the source of this difference.  I should've included something like "the core metaphysical difference," rather than just "difference" in the post. I didn't mean that there aren't any differences. I mean, the Void is black, and the Ley energy is blue (which should be white?). And like you say, the Void is "destructive" for some reason (though this is a matter of perspective no?) and ley energy is creative(?). I meant something more fundamental. What is the essence of these "superficial" differences.

I think if this is not answered, then this is a glaring omission in the lore. What the hell is Aurene "filtering?" Why is is the metaphor a "filter?" How do we know that she isn't adding something to it, rather than taking something out (just her testimony)? 

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

9 hours ago, Logos.5603 said:

What the hell is Aurene "filtering?"

Well the term "filtering" entered the stage in context of of magic consumption and "filtering" wrong types of magic out of it - in example primordus slurping on ley line should filter away all that is not fire magic, and not consume that stuff.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

SPOILERS FOR LWS3, PATH OF FIRE, LWS4 AND END OF DRAGONS

Ley-energy is the natural magic that passes through Tyria via ley lines, and its also known as pure dragon magic because its all six domains combined together like white light, as we see in LWS3.

 

Each Elder Dragon consumes magic from Tyria, either from ley-lines as ley-energy or from other sources of magic, then returns it to the ley-lines when it either goes to sleep or gets destroyed somehow. During this time its impure dragon magic, and typically only has one domain, but has been known to contain several.

 

Ultimately all ley-energy can only change forms (becoming simply "magic", of which there are many types), it can't be removed from the system. No matter how many times its split, or recombined, or transformed in some other way, it still has to return to the ley-lines. This process isn't always instant; we've known that Elder Dragons, Bloodstones and possibly even jade are capable of storing magic for thousands of years.

 

Ley-energy that is lost from Tyria (e.g into the Mists) could destabilise or even destroy the world.

 

Void-energy has nothing to do with Tyria, its the type of energy that was present throughout the cosmos when Tyria was formed by Soo-Won by filtering out the void-energy which was incompatible with life. To put it simply, void-energy is everything, while ley-energy is less than everything, but still everything necessary to support life.

 

Ley-energy: Native to Tyria, required for life, part of a closed system.

Void-energy: Not native to Tyria, incompatible with  life, leaks into the closed system and taints it.

 

Think of it like this: You have a poisonous fruit, so you genetically modify it to not produce the poison, making it edible. Its still the same fruit, and it even looks and tastes the same, but it doesn't hurt you.

 

The Elder Dragon Cycle happened because the filtering wasn't efficient enough, and very small amounts of void-energy contaminated the ley-lines over the course of several millenia. Aurene (either from Balthazar or some other means) has the ability to filter void-energy into ley-energy perfectly.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Hannelore.8153

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

33 minutes ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

Void-energy has nothing to do with Tyria, its the type of energy that was present throughout the cosmos when Tyria was formed by Soo-Won by filtering out the void-energy which was incompatible with life. To put it simply, void-energy is everything, while ley-energy is less than everything, but still everything necessary to support life.

I have not found a single in-game quote to support the claim that whole cosmos was created by Soo-Won. While it was stated that "void" is basically primordial soup of everything in state of chaos, all the quotes about creation, specifically stated tyria. As far as I managed tracking there is no info on how this complements the greater cosmos (the mists)

36 minutes ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

and its also known as pure dragon magic

citation needed - the only time I noticed anyone in game stating "pure dragon magic" it was Taimi stating what's "powering" jade tech. If Ley magic was pure dragon magic, the whole issue of "how do we charge jade batteries now without soo-won sitting inside reactor" would not arise if ley magic was same thing.

I would also like to point out that absorbing ley magic by non-dragon species is shown to be corruptive (pof bounties are "ley-energy crazed" creatures)

If I were to make hypothesis on a difference between the two, I would say, that ley-line magic is stable-ish mix of the all kinds of magic, that happens when different kinds of magic are mixed in slow and orderly fashion while void is it's unstable equivalent, result of faster and chaotic mixing. The "filtering" would be finding the spontaneous sparks of disorderly mix of magic, splitting it to the base types, and then reintroducing it into flow in orderly fashion. Soon-won and her children were not great at it, because each of them was only able to split one magic from it, letting rest to chaotically affect things untill rest can do something about it. Here comes Aurene to the scene - being prismatic dragon, she can split the spectrum all at once, and then direct the resulting magic streams. It is up for question how, or why aurene manifested as prismatic dragon.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

6 hours ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

I have not found a single in-game quote to support the claim that whole cosmos was created by Soo-Won. While it was stated that "void" is basically primordial soup of everything in state of chaos, all the quotes about creation, specifically stated tyria. As far as I managed tracking there is no info on how this complements the greater cosmos (the mists)

citation needed - the only time I noticed anyone in game stating "pure dragon magic" it was Taimi stating what's "powering" jade tech. If Ley magic was pure dragon magic, the whole issue of "how do we charge jade batteries now without soo-won sitting inside reactor" would not arise if ley magic was same thing.

I would also like to point out that absorbing ley magic by non-dragon species is shown to be corruptive (pof bounties are "ley-energy crazed" creatures)

If I were to make hypothesis on a difference between the two, I would say, that ley-line magic is stable-ish mix of the all kinds of magic, that happens when different kinds of magic are mixed in slow and orderly fashion while void is it's unstable equivalent, result of faster and chaotic mixing. The "filtering" would be finding the spontaneous sparks of disorderly mix of magic, splitting it to the base types, and then reintroducing it into flow in orderly fashion. Soon-won and her children were not great at it, because each of them was only able to split one magic from it, letting rest to chaotically affect things untill rest can do something about it. Here comes Aurene to the scene - being prismatic dragon, she can split the spectrum all at once, and then direct the resulting magic streams. It is up for question how, or why aurene manifested as prismatic dragon.

I was going to try and answer you before realising you misread or misinterpreted parts of my post.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Hannelore.8153

[celestia.3829]

7 hours ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

SPOILERS FOR LWS3, PATH OF FIRE, LWS4 AND END OF DRAGONS

Ley-energy is the natural magic that passes through Tyria via ley lines, and its also known as pure dragon magic because its all six domains combined together like white light, as we see in LWS3.

 

Each Elder Dragon consumes magic from Tyria, either from ley-lines as ley-energy or from other sources of magic, then returns it to the ley-lines when it either goes to sleep or gets destroyed somehow. During this time its impure dragon magic, and typically only has one domain, but has been known to contain several.

 

Ultimately all ley-energy can only change forms (becoming simply "magic", of which there are many types), it can't be removed from the system. No matter how many times its split, or recombined, or transformed in some other way, it still has to return to the ley-lines. This process isn't always instant; we've known that Elder Dragons, Bloodstones and possibly even jade are capable of storing magic for thousands of years.

 

Ley-energy that is lost from Tyria (e.g into the Mists) could destabilise or even destroy the world.

 

Void-energy has nothing to do with Tyria, its the type of energy that was present throughout the cosmos when Tyria was formed by Soo-Won by filtering out the void-energy which was incompatible with life. To put it simply, void-energy is everything, while ley-energy is less than everything, but still everything necessary to support life.

 

Ley-energy: Native to Tyria, required for life, part of a closed system.

Void-energy: Not native to Tyria, incompatible with  life, leaks into the closed system and taints it.

 

Think of it like this: You have a poisonous fruit, so you genetically modify it to not produce the poison, making it edible. Its still the same fruit, and it even looks and tastes the same, but it doesn't hurt you.

 

The Elder Dragon Cycle happened because the filtering wasn't efficient enough, and very small amounts of void-energy contaminated the ley-lines over the course of several millenia. Aurene (either from Balthazar or some other means) has the ability to filter void-energy into ley-energy perfectly.

Void energy is still a "natural" force. ( although techinically not native to tyria since tyria didnt exsist until it was filtered out)

[Dreamreaver.4908]

I've been looking for and trying to gather my notes on all of these distinctions and terms myself.

 

I had believed that Ley Line Magic was simply all kinds of magic, in any state, pure or unpure, that's coursed through the Ley Lines. I really get the feeling it's been that simple all along. Apparently any magic can enter into it, and Void entering it would eventually blow up the world, hence said Void being pulled out of the ground in black spirals all around Tyria (though I wonder if waypoints now have Dragonvoid in them as a result. I'm now picturing evil waypoints that will warp people off cliffs like trollish mesmers' portals).

 

That being said, how Ley Line magic was able to cleanse Zhaitanic corruption in Siren's Landing leads me to believe either it's so potent/concentrated as to dilute the corruption it was spread upon, or that there is Forgotten magic in there somewhere. No idea.

Edited March 24, 2022 by KidRoleplay.3615
Clarification and typos.

[ugrakarma.9416]

In the end of DE map theres raw "void energy" that hurts you, but they didnt add that effects on Void "ley lines" on the rest of map.

Theres lots of concepts borrowed from anti-matter/quarks concept. i wonder if some of writters watch astronomy videos too.

Edited March 23, 2022 by ugrakarma.9416

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Maybe like this? 

Think of woll on a sheep. It's chaotic. 

But when you weave it, it becomes something that can be used in many ways. 

Both are the same but one is useful, the other is not. 

[FoxBat.6295]

We don't have a full clear canon explanation but if we follow Aurene being the prismatic dragon, you shine white (mixed/all visible) light into a prism and a rainbow spectrum of colors comes out the other end. Likewise if you look at a rainbow, you see a curved circle of distinct color bars right on top of each other. I wonder whether "pure" ley lines might operate in a similar way, that it is separated magic traveling closely in parallel, so that the magic types can remain unmixed while still being on top of each other.

[Tamias.7059]

Honestly, the whole thing is a confusing mess and I'm not sure the devs have a clear idea. This wouldn't be a problem, but the understanding of lots of story points (like what is this Void which is the final boss of the entire Elder Dragons storyline) rely on this being clear and it's not.

[TeeracK.3601]

I think it just follows the same kind of vague rules you see in all fantasy worlds and comic universes where once you get too much of that magic all focuses in one place i starts becoming volatile and sentient. The magic moving in the leylines is getting sucked out in the ecosystem as it moves around the world but it isnt all getting sucked into a few giant monsters like with elder dragons. It kind of gets confusing though once you start wondering how that all fits in with soo won having made everything, but i think that's just an unthought out mistake from trying to over complete/tie off all loose ends of the elder dragons storyline.

Edited March 24, 2022 by TeeracK.3601

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

1 hour ago, TeeracK.3601 said:

I think it just follows the same kind of vague rules you see in all fantasy worlds and comic universes where once you get too much of that magic all focuses in one place i starts becoming volatile and sentient. The magic moving in the leylines is getting sucked out in the ecosystem as it moves around the world but it isnt all getting sucked into a few giant monsters like with elder dragons. It kind of gets confusing though once you start wondering how that all fits in with soo won having made everything, but i think that's just an unthought out mistake from trying to over complete/tie off all loose ends of the elder dragons storyline.

The issue with "void is just overfocused magic becoming sentient" is that... we already have exactly that from Season 3, and the whole "Void is a constant" + "Soo-Won made the world from Void" + "Elder Dragons filtered Void into their domains which merged into ley-lines" which indicate it's a case of "Void = Ley-lines + something unnamed".

[TeeracK.3601]

6 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

The issue with "void is just overfocused magic becoming sentient" is that... we already have exactly that from Season 3, and the whole "Void is a constant" + "Soo-Won made the world from Void" + "Elder Dragons filtered Void into their domains which merged into ley-lines" which indicate it's a case of "Void = Ley-lines + something unnamed".

Yeah but wouldn't you say that that's all still in line? That was a by product of the magic levels getting too crazy from two dragons. Void just seems like the same phenomena on a bigger scale to me.

[Laken.9018]

Given the variety of explanations here I think we can just safely take this as a sign that the explanation given in game was either inadequate or deliberately ambiguous to avoid needing to hard explain things.

[Scavarius.6059]

12 hours ago, Laken.9018 said:

Given the variety of explanations here I think we can just safely take this as a sign that the explanation given in game was either inadequate or deliberately ambiguous to avoid needing to hard explain things.

probably left ambiguous so they dont have to worry about it later. wich is a double edge. they usualy have a lucky coinsidende or a gaping plothole, no inbetween.

that said, it looked to me like ley lines are magic in order, while void is magic in entropy. and i wouldn bet that aurene can handle the all perfectly, we had not even a decade with her as an elder dragon, and with her beeing literal imortal means all kinds of things.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

Ley magic, Dragon magic, and god magic, have all been stated to be different things several times through the game, either in dialogue, or in collections.

Void magic is all dragon magic combined into one, but ley magic =/= dragon magic =/= god magic.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

Taimi: The chak feed off ley energy, right?

Taimi: And we know that each dragon has a "domain" when it comes to their magic; Zhaitan's was death, obviously.

Taimi: Well you know what's guaranteed to give chak a bad stomachache? Death magic!

Taimi: Spencer filters "death" out of ley energy!

<Character name>: So magic is almost like light? Broken up into a spectrum?

Taimi: That's a perfect way to think about it!

Taimi: Magic as we know it is like white light, composed of all the different types of dragon magic.

Take that as you will, but that reads to me as saying ley-line magic == dragon magic combined. I believe Fallout, The Only One, and Dragon's End meta also bring up the matter of ley-lines being dragon magic, but wiki isn't updated with all that dialogue yet so I can't verify. But IIRC, the only distinction End of Dragon really makes between Void and Ley-lines is, basically this:

Aurene: Careful. It's corrupted Elder Dragon magic that's been combined. We don't know its power.

Aurene: Destroy it! Release Kralkatorrik's corrupt magic, and I will shatter the barrier protecting Soo-Won.

There's also the distinction made in the pickups during the prism events:

• Corrupted Void Magic
• Purified Void Magic

The latter looks like ley energy, while the former looks like the black stuff.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Dreamreaver.4908]

Innnteresting! So, if Ley Line magic is all Dragon Magic, which is magic consumed by Elder Dragons from everything in the world, which is then released back into the world when they sleep, only to occur again when they rise ... does this mean Dragon magic is just interchangeable with the types anyway, and calling it "Dragon" doesn't really mean anything? (Which is something I was gathering from the Magic page on the wiki). In other words, magic is magic ... unless it comes from the Mists/the gods/forgotten.

 

But, then, Tyria was formed from the Mists anyway, so ... magic is magic. But there are apparent incompatibilities.

 

What makes it corrupt? What makes it unstable, volatile, poisonous, have sentience, whatever other random property; what makes magic only do one type of thing (necromancy, elements, whatever)?

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Taimi: The chak feed off ley energy, right?

Taimi: And we know that each dragon has a "domain" when it comes to their magic; Zhaitan's was death, obviously.

Taimi: Well you know what's guaranteed to give chak a bad stomachache? Death magic!

Taimi: Spencer filters "death" out of ley energy!

<Character name>: So magic is almost like light? Broken up into a spectrum?

Taimi: That's a perfect way to think about it!

Taimi: Magic as we know it is like white light, composed of all the different types of dragon magic.

Take that as you will, but that reads to me as saying ley-line magic == dragon magic combined. I believe Fallout, The Only One, and Dragon's End meta also bring up the matter of ley-lines being dragon magic, but wiki isn't updated with all that dialogue yet so I can't verify. But IIRC, the only distinction End of Dragon really makes between Void and Ley-lines is, basically this:

Aurene: Careful. It's corrupted Elder Dragon magic that's been combined. We don't know its power.

Aurene: Destroy it! Release Kralkatorrik's corrupt magic, and I will shatter the barrier protecting Soo-Won.

There's also the distinction made in the pickups during the prism events:

• Corrupted Void Magic
• Purified Void Magic

The latter looks like ley energy, while the former looks like the black stuff.

Well things like the Astralaria collection put dragon magic, ley magic, and mists magic(god magic) as wholly separate things.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Astralaria_IV:_The_Cosmos

They way I always red Taimi's line there is that the death of the Elder Dragons has released their energies into the ley lines, effectively contaminating them, but the Chalk can separate out the dragon magic(like Zhaitan's death magic) from the ley lines giving them pure ley energy.

Its like dumping a bunch of poison into the water supply. its in the water supply, but it isn't the water itself. They feed off the ley energy, but the dragon magic in the ley lines makes them sick so they have a way to filter it out.

Void magic is all Elder Dragon magics combined, which is what Taimi and Gorrik say when in the power substation in EoD, and what Soo-Won backs up in EoD.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[draxynnic.3719]

Personally, I was getting a strong feeling of Warhammer High/Dark magic out of the Void. Combining all of the magic types in a harmonious, ordered way, like a rainbow of distinct colours (even if that rainbow is so closely packed it looks white to the human eye) is constructive and relatively safe. Crunch it all together into a degenerate mass, though, and it turns destructive.

The interesting thing is the way it gets described when void magic simply is, rather than being combined with echoes of the sentience of the Elder Dragons to form the Dragonvoid. It's not really malicious per se, it simply causes constant change... it's only destructive because, as Taimi says, life can't survive that. This actually sounds a lot like GW1-era descriptions of the Mists - there are some parts of the Mists that are relatively stable (the god realms, fractals, WvW realms, and so on) and others that are a constant churn of creation.

Which means that whether void energy is a good or a bad thing depends on whether there is something there already. If there isn't, then the void energy will create something, and if enough of the void energy gets bound up in that act of creation, the result may well be stable. But if you get a lot of it in a place where there is already something... well, it will still create something, and will destroy whatever was there originally in the process (which, naturally, sucks for whatever was there). Which is shown in Ankka's plan - she wanted to trigger that destruction and recreation now so that she and her Aetherblades could take refuge in the Mists (which is why she wanted a Mists traversal device so much) and return to establish themselves as the top dogs in whatever comes next.

This also explains the Void's seeming lack of imagination, simply copying past dragon minions, even though they're being created out of pure Void energy. This is similar to what the Mists has always done - demons and so on are imperfect copies of creatures and beings that live in Tyria, and perhaps in other worlds. Even the echoes of the Elder Dragons might not have any direct link to the souls of those dragons, but simply be more constructs formed in their image.

Ultimately, though, the fundamental difference is probably one of concentration rather than of kind. Ley line magic is... well, enough to cause problems, but more along the lines of popping out the occasional anomaly and causing things to float rather than spontaneous acts of creation and destruction. Void energy is when you get enough of it concentrated in one place that it's going to start creating things, even if that means destroying whatever is already there.

Which means that in GW1 terms, the Dragonvoid and its minions are essentially demons, they're simply demons that formed locally rather than in some distant part of the Mists where this sort of constant creation is normal.

[Dreamreaver.4908]

@draxynnic.3719

 

I love all of that. My only issue with void magic being a greater concentration of ley line magic is that, when ley line magic is concentrated, it becomes leystone. Or ... even floating islands of said leystone.

Dragon's Domain - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

 

Laranthir of the Wild: Those islands are condensed ley energy!
Dragon's Stand (meta event) - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

 

Maybe in this context, void magic is ley line magic in a state condensed even farther beyond leystone?

(Also, GW2 tends to use "magic" and "energy" interchangeably)

[draxynnic.3719]

I could see leystone being something that appears when ley energy is on the cusp, so it creates a floating chunk of rock and enough energy goes into that to return it to a stable state, while void energy occurs when it goes past that threshold.

But I could also see it being unreliable narrator - the leystone was originally ordinary rock that soaked up a lot of ley energy rather than being created by it.