Now that the dust has settled, how does everyone feel about Vindicator in PvP?

[Arklite.4013]

Curious to hear what the more experienced revenant players think. I really want to like Vindicator in PvP but it feels like it’s almost entirely outclassed by Herald. It is a decent roamer with Jalis/Shiro and GS+S/S and a decent team fighter/off-dps if you bring Alliance/Jalis with GS/Staff and the barrier dodge, but I don’t feel like it excels at either of these things or does them better than any existing specs. I love the dodge in PvE but it’s hard to like it in PvP. Would love to hear other people’s thoughts. 

Edited March 24, 2022 by Arklite.4013

[Virdo.1540]

It got overnerfed. While it was kinda strong in sustain and had big dmg skills, they slayed both sides at the same time ,leaving it with a underwhelming support build only. It gets outclassed by rene, herald, even core rev.

[Scoobaniec.9561]

8 hours ago, Virdo.1540 said:

It got overnerfed. While it was kinda strong in sustain and had big dmg skills, they slayed both sides at the same time ,leaving it with a underwhelming support build only. It gets outclassed by rene, herald, even core rev.

Why on these forums its always "even core"? Core is better than herald

[KeoLegend.5132]

1 hour ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

Why on these forums its always "even core"? Core is better than herald

i would like to hear more from you explaining why

[ArthurDent.9538]

2 hours ago, KeoLegend.5132 said:

i would like to hear more from you explaining why

Yes and no, core is better for the 1v1 as jalis has superior sustained healing + damage plus retri has better traits than herald so it will just out muscle a meta herald in a head to head matchup. But herald is better against focus fire with infuse light and a reliable stunbreak on glint which jalis really lacks even if it has good stability access. Herald also brings a bit more mobility for sticking to targets in +1's with rising momentum and has some boon share for allies via glint facets. Ultimately herald is the meta for too tier play while core is not and there is a reason for it.

[lotus.5672]

I like the gs moveset and thats it.

[ArthurDent.9538]

Back on the topic of vindicator, its pretty bad now the gs5 nerf was extremely overdone and which sucks as it kind of is the one skill on the weapon that isn't super generic. One more thing I kind of hate about current vindicator is that the strongest variant runs jalis + shiro while alliance, despite being way more fun imo, is just lagging behind overall even with the really powerful tree song skill, the rest of the kit just doesn't keep up. The current state is what happens when you give an espec a crippling tradeoff (1 dodge that costs twice as much as normal) and then completely neuter the strong points which acted as compensation.

[Virdo.1540]

6 hours ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

Why on these forums its always "even core"? Core is better than herald

I say "even core" because core often gets underhestimated by the community. I dont say core is worse, it is indeed superior in specific roles. 

[Telgum.6071]

2 hours ago, ArthurDent.9538 said:

Yes and no, core is better for the 1v1 as jalis has superior sustained healing + damage plus retri has better traits than herald so it will just out muscle a meta herald in a head to head matchup. But herald is better against focus fire with infuse light and a reliable stunbreak on glint which jalis really lacks even if it has good stability access. Herald also brings a bit more mobility for sticking to targets in +1's with rising momentum and has some boon share for allies via glint facets. Ultimately herald is the meta for too tier play while core is not and there is a reason for it.

There is no way core deals more damage than herald. Maybe core defeats herald because the sustain may be higher thanks to Jalis + Retribution, while Herald's sustain is tricky, but that's all. On everything else Herald is better.

[Scoobaniec.9561]

5 hours ago, KeoLegend.5132 said:

i would like to hear more from you explaining why

From solo roaming pov in wvw: better sustain which doesnt rely on opponent mistakes, F2

 

Glint is cool and all but traitline kinda poopy compared to core options. Only thing herald has above core is dummies not paying attention to infuse light in teamfights. Thats about it

[KeoLegend.5132]

33 minutes ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

From solo roaming pov in wvw: better sustain which doesnt rely on opponent mistakes, F2

 

Glint is cool and all but traitline kinda poopy compared to core options. Only thing herald has above core is dummies not paying attention to infuse light in teamfights. Thats about it

interesting, so one can say power core marauder is still a thing in WvW roam?

[Buran.3796]

   In PvP? That's easy: power Herald >> power Renegade >>> power core Revenant > any Vindicator build. And being realist: you won't see anything but power Herald at MATs. Power Renegade is playable but too easy to counter/contain with anti-projectile skills. Core Rev won't be used due has no advantage over Herald and Renegade and if Herald loses weigth (due nerfs) its place will be filled by other professions as Ranger or maybe even a return of the Warrior (harder for Mesmer due the Virtuoso has similar problems against projectile hate as the Renegade).

   So, no place for Vindi. Is hard to argue vs facts:

 

   But as I said BEFORE the nerfs I don't care: I won't play a spec with a single dodge which also costs 100 endurance. Did 30 ranked matches with Vindi before the nerfts to the damage and sustain and never found it as powerful, useful or fun as Herald or Renegade, so since the butch didn't bother to play it again in PvP.  I'm also not worried about future changes: took me 2.5 years to start using Renegade in PvP, and I can see a similar trend with Vindi: it will require deep changes in the greatsword and/or dodge mechanics to grow my interest again. 

[nosleepdemon.1368]

Yeah the single dodge is just GG against players, it's telegraphed and once it lands even if your opponent has to dodge the drop, they are now ahead in the stamina game. I tried Vindi in wvw in beta and it was just clear that nothing short of making the profession OP can bolster the lack of double dodge. It's a really fun change to open world PvE, which is fine for me - since now I am not running variations of the same build in both PvE and WvW, but the PvP application is going to be second rate.

Edited March 24, 2022 by nosleepdemon.1368

[Howluffu.7259]

from my point of view at least in wvw roaming and in squads: just a kittening unplayable shiet. I would rather the normal 2 dodges comeback and the dive bombs be the elite for each alliance legend(the dmg one in archemorus and the healing one in victor). As now, is just useless garbo

[Thornwolf.9721]

23 hours ago, Arklite.4013 said:

Curious to hear what the more experienced revenant players think. I really want to like Vindicator in PvP but it feels like it’s almost entirely outclassed by Herald. It is a decent roamer with Jalis/Shiro and GS+S/S and a decent team fighter/off-dps if you bring Alliance/Jalis with GS/Staff and the barrier dodge, but I don’t feel like it excels at either of these things or does them better than any existing specs. I love the dodge in PvE but it’s hard to like it in PvP. Would love to hear other people’s thoughts. 

Probably our worst spec to date honestly; It had neat Idea but was poorly executed. You're better off with core or ren because both of those outperform herald; Herald is good if it's played well but it's more difficult than core or ren due to the lack of sustain and bursty nature. They've sort of turned herald into a glass cannon with really one good heal; So if you want something more than that I'd just go with renegade. Core is good but its ranged options SUCK so if you want to  have an option to go to when they run or worse yet if you're in a fight that has phases... ren's probably the way to go unfortunately. 

[tiraniko.3087]

I still love it, just switched from s/s + gs to staff + gs. You can still provide great sustain, utility and dmg - just can't oneshot with gs5 anymore which is actually good tbh... since all meta guys jumped from rev back on other popular class.

I love rev and spvp - vindi finally gave me possibility to play as bulky rev instead of kiting , +1 kind of builds

Edited March 25, 2022 by tiraniko.3087

[Arklite.4013]

So, after Vindicator having a massive presence in the mAT, I think it's fair to say it's actually.. good? I don't understand how - when I play with the same builds as the AT teams, I get melted. I have no clue how they are so survivable with one dodge and Jalis/Shiro with GS/S+S.

[Buran.3796]

3 hours ago, Arklite.4013 said:

So, after Vindicator having a massive presence in the mAT, I think it's fair to say it's actually.. good? I don't understand how - when I play with the same builds as the AT teams, I get melted. I have no clue how they are so survivable with one dodge and Jalis/Shiro with GS/S+S.

   Didn't have the opportunity to saw the MAT last weekend but plan to do it soon (when is uploaded).  But so far I barely saw Vindis in my last ~25 PvP matches (since the nerfs).

[Arklite.4013]

1 hour ago, Buran.3796 said:

   Didn't have the opportunity to saw the MAT last weekend but plan to do it soon (when is uploaded).  But so far I barely saw Vindis in my last ~25 PvP matches (since the nerfs).

Here's a link to Teapot's stream of the EU MAT. Vindicator was probably the most brought spec behind Specter, Mechanist, and Core Guard. Most of them seem to be using the barrier dodge still so maybe it's just a spec that benefits greatly from more coordinated team play than ranked.

The winning team even had a Vindicator on it, but it was often just a bunker while the 2 specters won the game, so take from that what you will.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Arklite.4013

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

I mostly see heralds in platin. Troglodytes are gonna be troglodytes for another 6 years playing herald

On 3/24/2022 at 10:38 AM, Virdo.1540 said:

It got overnerfed. While it was kinda strong in sustain and had big dmg skills, they slayed both sides at the same time ,leaving it with a underwhelming support build only. It gets outclassed by rene, herald, even core rev.

I think it was just poorly designed. They only nerfed two things about it and it's now kinda trash.
Good luck fighting things like oneshot DE (lol 16k ranged crits are alright in Anet's book ig, glad this is mostly wvw problem tho) and Bladesworn that you should simply dodge and walk away although you cant kinda walk away from your node or dodge it all the time as a vindicator.
And dont get me started on Harbringer, doesnt seem like any class can cleanse that enough kitten

UPD actually, this kitten spec gave me so much stress that I can only compare to early release Renegade disappointment. Sure it got buffed later but at first it was hot piece of garbage and Vindicator gives me the same vibes.
Tardians with trapper runes pull you out of your dodge, you still get cc'd in your dodge, it's telegraphic and other skills but GS 5 and 3 are hot garbage. GS2 attack doesn't corespond to it's animation, you can easily see your enemy standing in red cracks but never receive damage. True Strike of GS4 is slow enough to simply walk out of it so pathetic comparing to ranger's GS for example where you can combo GS4 with Maul and deal just as much damage lmao
 

Edited March 29, 2022 by Vasdamas Anklast.1607

[Shao.7236]

Think it's fine. While I hate the changes to FE and think they should revert them(Range at most) at least I don't have to rely on it as much when using Alliances.

 

Hammer + GS is quite a blast and good change from Core Hammer + Staff. It's only a matter of other professions getting balanced now.

 

Although one thing that bothers me is Battle Dance not working with Aggressive Agility, it's Resistance neither kicking in soon enough to counter immobilize which keeps you on the spot.

 

Playing Dwarf Alliances is good damage good sustain with average mobility, can't port as much but can definitely take more punishment while also more useful to the team utility wise.

 

However it's not like anyone is ever gonna play it this way. Players hardly can make Alliances work which is a shame cause it's really good when played properly. Core is not even played anyway while Herald (Not so much of Renegade now)see the most use for how their gameplay gets adjusted close to other professions.

[Shao.7236]

On 3/24/2022 at 1:38 PM, Telgum.6071 said:

There is no way core deals more damage than herald. Maybe core defeats herald because the sustain may be higher thanks to Jalis + Retribution, while Herald's sustain is tricky, but that's all. On everything else Herald is better.

Core is more bursty than Herald, least it was easier to do until FE nerfs. The only redeeming factor of Herald is Herald F2 being an instant cast, stuff just stupid if you ask me.

[Telgum.6071]

3 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

Core is more bursty than Herald, least it was easier to do until FE nerfs. The only redeeming factor of Herald is Herald F2 being an instant cast, stuff just stupid if you ask me.

No? What is the math behind that claim? How does Retribution deal more damage than Herald?

[Tulkas.2576]

2 hours ago, Telgum.6071 said:

No? What is the math behind that claim? How does Retribution deal more damage than Herald?

Retri has the +10% on weakened targets, but mostly I think it’s due to the extra energy available to Core. You can FE then swap to Shiro Phase Traversal+Impossible Odds+True Nature and use every Sword Skill. Whereas with Herald, you swap and can only use PT and a couple sword skills. 
I honestly don’t know for sure if Core can burst harder overall than Herald, but that would be my reasoning for if it could. 

Herald is still the best though. 
Facet of Elements for area denial and finishing downs, Facet of Chaos’s ability to move downs off node. Facet of Darkness for reveal/blind/stun break. Shiro Facet boon rip. 
Herald has such a strong kit and good utility while being cheap so you can use weapon skills. Dwarf is great too of course, but for PvP Herald has more utility.

[Telgum.6071]

1 hour ago, Tulkas.2576 said:

Retri has the +10% on weakened targets, but mostly I think it’s due to the extra energy available to Core. You can FE then swap to Shiro Phase Traversal+Impossible Odds+True Nature and use every Sword Skill. Whereas with Herald, you swap and can only use PT and a couple sword skills. 
I honestly don’t know for sure if Core can burst harder overall than Herald, but that would be my reasoning for if it could. 

Herald is still the best though. 
Facet of Elements for area denial and finishing downs, Facet of Chaos’s ability to move downs off node. Facet of Darkness for reveal/blind/stun break. Shiro Facet boon rip. 
Herald has such a strong kit and good utility while being cheap so you can use weapon skills. Dwarf is great too of course, but for PvP Herald has more utility.

Herald has more might + fury uptime, Burst of Strenght, Facet of Nature and Forceful Persistence. I won't say Core is bad, but it can only compete against Herald in survibability, nothing else.