Every Problem with Tempest in Wvw.

[solemn.9608]

Eh?

We are not playing the same class/build.

I'm playing Tempest in this video I have no idea what you're using which also has the name "tempest" because when I use it I see an immediate massive increase of confidence in the Zerg.

https://youtu.be/8qG99U0bXSI

Edit: I could go through OP's post point by point but overall it reeks of "I can't relate". Sorry I don't mean to be rude about it but really.

Edited March 26, 2022 by solemn.9608

[Jski.6180]

2 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

It didn't need to gain anything. It's very strong.

Was it strong before or after 10 target nerf? The boons where added and balanced with 10 targets in mind but they cut the 10 targets and added nothing to the class or the shouts even the overlaods.

[Kozumi.5816]

1 hour ago, Jski.6180 said:

Was it strong before or after 10 target nerf? The boons where added and balanced with 10 targets in mind but they cut the 10 targets and added nothing to the class or the shouts even the overlaods.

Yes, auras are overpowered and make you basically unkillable.

[Jski.6180]

53 minutes ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

Yes, auras are overpowered and make you basically unkillable.

That the thing about auras they are both the most worthless effect in the game and the strongest effect in the game. If you hit an aura with its "counter chose" then your playing into that auras effect but if you dont hit it with its "counter chose" the aura dose nothing. It would be like only letting scraper wells have an effect if your hit with an attk of a very specific type that includes giving out super speed and even being an field.

A kind of blessing and a curse for balancing. Very much able to be counter if you see it coming though and often so easy to deal with that its only an effect that works vs ppl whom are only spamming 1.

So the most part auras are only of real use for there apply effects not the auras them self. Over all a very bad balancing ideal on anet ends every thing is applied base not during base. Another major problem with the tempest class (real all of ele) there only effects for applied and very few during. Making the class have to spam effects beyond the duration (auras sadly dont stack in duration) just to get weaker effects of healing and condi clears even boons that other classes get during there effects or simply give them out in one button press.

Tempest is and realty ele over all is an mess of an class that only has all in builds all though its an cele base class all due to anet miss management of traits and some how thinking that even though it can heal or do dmg in one or another atument that they forgot you need something behind the effect such as power or healing power to be any thing of real worth. In short anet hates the ele class maybe not by chose but for sure though there actions of nerfs and out right insulting statements of mindless points of views of logic gymnastics to make nerfs and buffs for the ele class seem ok by there views and only there views.

[Custodio.6134]

12 hours ago, Ubi.4136 said:

People expect every support to do the same thing...they don't.

Firebrand - cause stability

Scrapper - cause cleanse and stealth

Tempest - cause cleanse and aura

 

No, they aren't equal.  The first is mandatory, the second or third are nice.  And yes, people do tend to favor the second slot to superspeed/stealth, it is what it is.

 

That said, as a support scrapper main, superspeed should not even exist.  Kind of like how stealthed players should never move faster than about 80% of normal run speed while in stealth.  Game has a lot of things that need adjusting, but tempest isn't handicapped as bad as people are claiming, and auras have no counterplay other than stop attacking.  Take your pick as to how you want to support, but they aren't meant to do the same thing.

That isn´t even really true, and a huge oversimplification of all the classes you mentioned. 

Firebrand does ways more than just giving stab. let me correct that list for you: 

- Firebrand: stability, resistance, resolution, reflections, stunbreaks, Blocks (Aegis), Projectile destruction, slight healing, potentially rezz (Signet of Mercy), CC (pulls/lines)
-Scrapper: initial stability (bulwark toolbelt), cleanse, healing, stealth, CC for spikes (Hamer 5), projectile destruction, Boon-generation (Purity of Purpose, even though it got nerfed), Superspeed, Quickness
Tempest: Aura-Support, Healing, cleansing (without converting), some (pretty unreliable) CC, Rebound 

Additionally: Superspeed does not work when out of combat (which is the case in 90% of the scenarios when you are stealthed). because your movement-speed with swiftness is higher out of combat than the movement-speed you are set to by superspeed (Superspeed is an effect that provides a 100% increase to movement speed. Other effects that provide a bonus to movement speed (e.g. Swiftness, certain traits and signets) do not stack with superspeed; only the highest increase in movement speed will be applied.)  Superspeed only makes use of its full 100% increase while in combat.

 

 

[Zyreva.1078]

1 hour ago, Custodio.6134 said:

Additionally: Superspeed does not work when out of combat (which is the case in 90% of the scenarios when you are stealthed). because your movement-speed with swiftness is higher out of combat than the movement-speed you are set to by superspeed (Superspeed is an effect that provides a 100% increase to movement speed. Other effects that provide a bonus to movement speed (e.g. Swiftness, certain traits and signets) do not stack with superspeed; only the highest increase in movement speed will be applied.)  Superspeed only makes use of its full 100% increase while in combat.

 

 

OOC you move about the same speed with swiftness and superspeed due to the movement speed cap. So the latter is kinda wasted if you already have swiftness, but it still works.

[Zikory.6871]

You guys are saying a lot of words to ignore why groups take scrapper over tempest.

Plain and simple.
- Tempest has 3s superspeed on a 35s CD. 
- Scrapper has 5s on F1, 3s on each gyro (generally 3), and 3s on F5. 

Any group without a scrapper will be left in the tail and be at a disadvantage. Good Scrappers can keep near 100% Super speed uptime, at least for every push or the first ~20s. 

Druid - No groups SS
Shout Guard - No SS (Ye, its not a terrible Cleanse class)
Support Spellbreaker - No SS (granted, not the strongest Cleanse)
Tempest - 1 SS.
Scrapper - zoom zoom mf

[Jski.6180]

39 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

OOC you move about the same speed with swiftness and superspeed due to the movement speed cap. So the latter is kinda wasted if you already have swiftness, but it still works.

Oddly due to the swiftness being removed from overloads build in effectively ended most of tempest self swiftness your more then likely not going to have swiftness as an tempest and you need to get it from some one else.

[Riba.3271]

Tempest is very effective, peoples issue are trying to stick it to every party and that they don't know how to play anymore without having very high superspeed upkeep

 

What is overlooked often about tempest:

- The cleansing potential is there, higher than scrapper

- Dagger/Focus is still what people run despite since they added transmuting auras and nerfed earth 5 on that set, dagger/dagger is better for supporting, CC and downed control. Dagger/focus is great too, but worse for WvW these days

- Kill potential: Multiple ways of AoE immobing on low CD: Earth shout/overload and Earth 3. Shocking auras.

- Absolutely bonkers cloud control with high frost aura upkeep

- Vigor regeneration, everytime you apply aura, you also regenerate 10 endurance for 6 people (because auras go to 1+5 people). This trait is wrong for metabuilds because the metabuilds haven't been updated in almost a year and are still running "10 man shouts" even though they don't exist anymore.

- Elite shout and frost aura effects are very strong but 99% of the players won't even notice it

- Ability to swap to staff weaver when there is lack of firebrands or you need some big DPS/wall pressure/choke control/win percent fluctuation

What is lacks compared to scrapper:

- It is much harder to play since it isn't just pressing w key and running very close to tag and it also requires you to use shocking auras when its needed, and same applies to other auras. So you have to choose from, lets say 7 different ways of supporting while scrapper just rotates same skills over and over.

- The healing is kinda lackluster

- Superspeed upkeep is terrible. This is problem almost always, but not with every playstyle. There are commanders that actually counter bomb enemies and are willing to hold chokes, but not many.

- No stealth. Stealth gyro is busted. It can make a guild or blob farm pugs endlessly.

- Other tempests make tempests weaker. First of all, tempest hits 6 targets, not 5, with auras, meaning some of the effectiveness will be wasted if there are too many tempests. Also it doesn't really make a difference if you get hit by 1 or 5 shocking/frost auras from enemy side.

- One of the main issues with Tempest is that the fire auras constantly apply very weak burning, which converts into aegis, and this actually helps enemy more than you.

- No AoE stab which is bad

 

TLDR; Scrapper is easy, you can run more scrappers than tempests, it is easier to recommend. I do think that tempest is better in right hands but it definitely has a learning curve and requires being able to swap between supporting and killing enemies at will. Tempest is like a mesmer, you only want 1-3 of them in whole squad.

Edited March 26, 2022 by Threather.9354
Improved readability

[Zyreva.1078]

1 hour ago, Zikory.6871 said:

Druid - No groups SS

Druid does have some aoe superspeed. Not scrapper lvls of superspeed ofc, but still.

[Jski.6180]

14 minutes ago, Threather.9354 said:

Tempest is very effective, peoples issue are trying to stick it to every party and that they don't know how to play anymore without having very high superspeed upkeep

 

What is overlooked often about tempest:

- The cleansing potential is there, higher than scrapper

- Dagger/Focus is still what people run despite since they added transmuting auras and nerfed earth 5 on that set, dagger/dagger is better for supporting, CC and downed control. Dagger/focus is great too, but worse for WvW these days

- Kill potential: Multiple ways of AoE immobing on low CD: Earth shout/overload and Earth 3. Shocking auras.

- Absolutely bonkers cloud control with high frost aura upkeep

- Vigor regeneration, everytime you apply aura, you also regenerate 10 endurance for 6 people (because auras go to 1+5 people). This trait is wrong for metabuilds because the metabuilds haven't been updated in almost a year and are still running "10 man shouts" even though they don't exist anymore.

- Elite shout and frost aura effects are very strong but 99% of the players won't even notice it

- Ability to swap to staff weaver when there is lack of firebrands or you need some big DPS/wall pressure/choke control/win percent fluctuation

What is lacks compared to scrapper:

- It is much harder to play since it isn't just pressing w key and running very close to tag and it also requires you to use shocking auras when its needed, and same applies to other auras. So you have to choose from, lets say 7 different ways of supporting while scrapper just rotates same skills over and over.

- The healing is kinda lackluster

- Superspeed upkeep is terrible. This is problem almost always, but not with every playstyle. There are commanders that actually counter bomb enemies and are willing to hold chokes, but not many.

- No stealth. Stealth gyro is busted. It can make a guild or blob farm pugs endlessly.

- Other tempests make tempests weaker. First of all, tempest hits 6 targets, not 5, with auras, meaning some of the effectiveness will be wasted if there are too many tempests. Also it doesn't really make a difference if you get hit by 1 or 5 shocking/frost auras from enemy side.

- One of the main issues with Tempest is that the fire auras constantly apply very weak burning, which converts into aegis, and this actually helps enemy more than you.

- No AoE stab which is bad

 

TLDR; Scrapper is easy, you can run more scrappers than tempests, it is easier to recommend. I do think that tempest is better in right hands but it definitely has a learning curve and requires being able to swap between supporting and killing enemies at will. Tempest is like a mesmer, you only want 1-3 of them in whole squad.

Tempest has lower condi clear then scraper i realty dont get where ppl are getting that tempest has higher condi clear. Just for the simple fact scraper has light fields comply overwhelm any thing from tempest.

 

Its just as bad as the ideal that tempest can out heal scraper in no way that is true any more after the nerfs.

I get the feeling ppl are telling them self lyes at this point to make them feel better about all of the nerfs that have destroyed the tempest class. The best one is that tempest is some how better in low man fights when scraper dose not lose any thing for having less then 5 targets to support vs tempest having less then 5 target to support. There is NOTHING that tempest can do that scraper dose a LOT better.

Edited March 26, 2022 by Jski.6180

[Riba.3271]

17 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

I get the feeling ppl are telling them self lyes at this point to make them feel better about all of the nerfs that have destroyed the tempest class. The best one is that tempest is some how better in low man fights when scraper dose not lose any thing for having less then 5 targets to support vs tempest having less then 5 target to support. There is NOTHING that tempest can do that scraper dose a LOT better.

Well tbf it can apply shocking auras (AoE pulsing CC moving with the blob) and frost auras and immobilize. Also it has an AoE stunbreak for the party. So it can do something as long as you stop thinking just in terms of cleanse, healing and boons for supports.

Also I am not saying to replace scrapper with tempest. I am saying to run 9 scrappers and 1 tempest, instead of 10 scrappers.

Edited March 26, 2022 by Threather.9354

[Zikory.6871]

4 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Druid does have some aoe superspeed. Not scrapper lvls of superspeed ofc, but still.

You right, I forgot. Scrapper would still be the reason for no druids sadly (if druid got buffed to compete in other areas).
 

 

3 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Tempest has lower condi clear then scraper i realty dont get where ppl are getting that tempest has higher condi clear. Just for the simple fact scraper has light fields comply overwhelm any thing from tempest.

Its because of the burst cleanse from Overload water and the sustained cleanses from auras. At least, I'm not talking about arc numbers over a long fight.  

[Za Shaloc.3908]

7 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Tempest has lower condi clear then scraper i realty dont get where ppl are getting that tempest has higher condi clear. Just for the simple fact scraper has light fields comply overwhelm any thing from tempest.

 

Its just as bad as the ideal that tempest can out heal scraper in no way that is true any more after the nerfs.

I get the feeling ppl are telling them self lyes at this point to make them feel better about all of the nerfs that have destroyed the tempest class. The best one is that tempest is some how better in low man fights when scraper dose not lose any thing for having less then 5 targets to support vs tempest having less then 5 target to support. There is NOTHING that tempest can do that scraper dose a LOT better.

 

IMO Tempest is better in cloud/small-scale because you can take advantage of the disruption that it can offer, which is one of its biggest assets. The immob and CC have higher value there as stab and cleanse uptime will likely be lower than larger scale. Tornado is also absolutely massive value on downed management, and on a very low CD for value it can bring. I've always seen Scrapper as a stacked group superpower-er kind of support and Tempest as a more independent aggressive disruptor style of support. 

[Jski.6180]

1 hour ago, Zikory.6871 said:

You right, I forgot. Scrapper would still be the reason for no druids sadly (if druid got buffed to compete in other areas).
 

 

Its because of the burst cleanse from Overload water and the sustained cleanses from auras. At least, I'm not talking about arc numbers over a long fight.  

Overload is sustained clear fumigate is burst clear. The arc of a fight is what support is for to keep the fight longer to give your dps time to land there dmg and effects.

1 hour ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

 

IMO Tempest is better in cloud/small-scale because you can take advantage of the disruption that it can offer, which is one of its biggest assets. The immob and CC have higher value there as stab and cleanse uptime will likely be lower than larger scale. Tornado is also absolutely massive value on downed management, and on a very low CD for value it can bring. I've always seen Scrapper as a stacked group superpower-er kind of support and Tempest as a more independent aggressive disruptor style of support. 

What disruption dose scraper lack and what disruption dose FB even lack? I do not see what tempest has over scraper in small number fights beyond your scraper players are allowed into the main groups and often are not played for fun in smaller groups witch is why we see tempest more in smaller groups then scraper! Tempest is fun scraper is physically painful to play.

@Threather.9354

I did not see your response so i had to do it this way sry.

Auras brake the games cap they are more benefice vs more then 5 targets or your better off running a simply 5 target cc. Scraper has an 5 target aoe stun brake so dose FB. It sounds like your just asking ppl to stop thinking about tempest as an support class over all at that point. Don't think about tempest healing condi clear or boons out put just think about its cc that you can get from running dps or support....

You only run 1 tempest because ppl want to play it not because you need it. You NEED 9 scrapers for stealth fields and perma group super speed. That 10th scraper can be dps and still do a better job then tempest as support.

 

 

Edited March 26, 2022 by Jski.6180

[Junkpile.7439]

They should remove tempest, weaver and catalyst from game and buff core.

[Kozumi.5816]

The amount of superspeed tempest gives is the basis they should balance around. Scrappers superspeed uptime is not balanced.

Edited March 26, 2022 by Kozumi.5816

[Jski.6180]

37 minutes ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

The amount of superspeed tempest gives is the basis they should balance around. Scrappers superspeed uptime is not balanced.

That ship sailed at this point where scraper super speed is its "strong boon" effect much like auras are for ele. Tempest is just wildly weaker then other support classes.

Anet even buffed scraper in the last update and the one before that and the one before that! Scraper is the balancing point of support atm tempest is just very week. To suggest all other supports are op but for tempest is a more of self delusion.

[LegohBrave.1823]

Tempest has no role in organized zerg fights currently.

Run scrapper and save your Tempest for pvp, clouding blobs in wvw, and roaming in wvw.

If you are going to sit here and argue that Tempest gets a spot over a Scrapper, come log in and let my blob guild run you over with 1 scrapper per party and you run 1 tempest per party.

I think 1 Tempest in 35+ just for the memes if you are imob build, but anet shouldn't be coddled into a sense of "GEE WIZ GUYS, PLAYERS LOVE WHERE TEMPEST IS". It's not meta, and has not been for 4 years. You should be requesting additions to bring it closer to the utility of Scrapper. You don't have to dump on it, just don't hail it as "meta".

[Kozumi.5816]

2 hours ago, LightBrave.5638 said:

You should be requesting additions to bring it closer to the utility of Scrapper.

No you shouldn't, you should be asking for Scrapper to be nerfed down to the level of other supports.

[MedievalThings.5417]

15 hours ago, Custodio.6134 said:

That isn´t even really true, and a huge oversimplification of all the classes you mentioned. 

Firebrand does ways more than just giving stab. let me correct that list for you: 

- Firebrand: stability, resistance, resolution, reflections, stunbreaks, Blocks (Aegis), Projectile destruction, slight healing, potentially rezz (Signet of Mercy), CC (pulls/lines)
-Scrapper: initial stability (bulwark toolbelt), cleanse, healing, stealth, CC for spikes (Hamer 5), projectile destruction, Boon-generation (Purity of Purpose, even though it got nerfed), Superspeed, Quickness
Tempest: Aura-Support, Healing, cleansing (without converting), some (pretty unreliable) CC, Rebound 

Additionally: Superspeed does not work when out of combat (which is the case in 90% of the scenarios when you are stealthed). because your movement-speed with swiftness is higher out of combat than the movement-speed you are set to by superspeed (Superspeed is an effect that provides a 100% increase to movement speed. Other effects that provide a bonus to movement speed (e.g. Swiftness, certain traits and signets) do not stack with superspeed; only the highest increase in movement speed will be applied.)  Superspeed only makes use of its full 100% increase while in combat.

 

 

Sure, they all have more uses, but that isn't what people are asking for when they say I need more: insert class.

I need more FB's in squad, they're asking for stability.  Scrappers, they are asking for cleanse.  Tempest, asking for auras.  Of course, they all do more than that, but what I listed is the reason what they are looking for.

Edited March 27, 2022 by Ubi.4136

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

On 3/26/2022 at 1:17 PM, Jski.6180 said:

Tempest has lower condi clear then scraper i realty dont get where ppl are getting that tempest has higher condi clear....

I get the feeling ppl are telling them self lyes at this point to make them feel better about all of the nerfs that have destroyed the tempest class

 

People are definitely lying to themselves.

 

On 3/26/2022 at 1:04 PM, Threather.9354 said:

- The cleansing potential is there, higher than scrapper

 

This is not true. This was true prior to 2 years ago...not anymore after OW and 10 man shout nerfs.

 

Quote

 dagger/dagger is better for supporting, CC and downed control.

 

For large scale, this is also not true.

 

Quote

- Elite shout and frost aura effects are very strong but 99% of the players won't even notice it

 

Frost Aura is not a "strong" effect. it is usefulness comes from the idea of being stacked with all the other damage reduction modifiers (protection weakness etc...) However, the more modifiers you stack, the less effective additional effects become. There is a diminishing return to actually bring additional modifiers...and at a certain point it becomes negligible (around 75-80%)

 

The first thing to understand is that weakness is the strongest damage reduction modifier in the game, followed by of course the 50% reduction damage modifiers like Rite of the Great Dwarf and then protection for 40% damage reduction. Already we are talking about with just Weakness and Protection, hitting close to 80% reduction in strike damage. Frost Aura would add only 1-2% more reduction's in damage.

 

So ya, the reason people don't notice frost aura, is because frost aura is for all practical purposes in large scale not noticeable. If you are using frost aura to reduce damage, then you are thinking about it the wrong way, and you should see it instead as a skill that boosts your healing not reducing damage.

 

About the Elite Shout... It is a strong skill....and it was a very strong utility prior to 10 man shout nerfs. But just for some perspective: Scrapper MK 1 heals for about the same as the Elite shout per target in the time that it takes the Elite Shout to trigger (3000/4000 per target x 5 times = 9000-12000 in 4.5 seconds no quickness) Prior to 10 man nerfs, the elite shout obviously would be twice as strong as MK1 in the same timeframe...and therefor it would have been a tool one would have used over spamming auto's on cooldown...now...it is only as useful as simply spamming MK1 therefor there is no reason to use the elite shout over just MK1.

 

I don't know if you raid...but in raids there are two kinds of "builds" there, which are the "burst" builds, and the sustained DPS builds. Burst builds do all their damage in a short time frame, and do negligible damage in their down time, while sustained DPS builds do their damage over long time frames with no real burst sequences. In most cases, sustained DPS builds are usually 1 or 2 attacks being spammed over and over and over and over again. If you have played Staff Thief, you realize that 80% of your DPS comes from Staff 1 Auto's and Staff 2 weakening strikes. You can literally do 28-30k DPS by just mashing staff 1. The same principles are at work here in talking about the effectiveness of skills in WvW and what you should prioritize using in a fight. If you have skill X that does 2000 healing on a 1s cooldown, and skill Y that does 20,000 healing on a 60 second cooldown, then you can breakdown the skills into easy comparisons, where skill X does 120,000 healing over 60 seconds, and skill Y does 20,000 healing over 60 seconds therefor one should prioritize skill X over Y, but is still reasonable to use both. If you were to nerf Skill Y to do 2000 healing with a 60 second cooldown, then there is no reason to even use it over skill x in an circumstance...you actually lose value casting certain skills because in that same time frame, you could have used a skill that is more valuable. If you practice rotations say on staff thief, you realize that by deviating from staff 1 and 2 for other skills, you will always lose DPS.

 

Same ideas apply here to healing and cleansing on these classes, and this happens to be the issue with Tempest, and a lot of other classes too. Most of the skills that had value were nerfed heavily after February patch. OW it's strongest cleanse and healing skill was nerfed by over 75% (Reduced target cap, 50% reduced healing) Sooth Mist it's strongest passive healing, reduced by 50% healing. All of it's shouts nerfed by 75% (reduced target cap and 50% reduced healing. 50% reduced condition cleansing) Rez utility removed...

 

There is no debate here...that elementalist is a fraction of what it once was, and what scrapper is still able to do, and meters prove that. It should be a surprise here...that scrapper is still meta even after POP nerf which SHOULD have removed it from the meta...but because every other class is so garbage at support, scrapper is still here.

Edited March 27, 2022 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Arheundel.6451]

People claiming that tempest has better boon uptime and condi clear than scrappers....are just delusional, liars and don't play an ele themselves. A scrapper provides : dmg reduction aoe, aoe condi clear, aoe superspeed, aoe stealth, aoe quickness, aoe burst, aoe conversion...etc etc etc...lol....shocking aura? ....laughable...

And this is PvP without the bloated stats of wvw...tempest support?...how laughable...outside the fringe small scale vs uplevel...the tempest is borderline useless

[Kozumi.5816]

2 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

And this is PvP without the bloated stats of wvw...tempest support?...how laughable...outside the fringe small scale vs uplevel...the tempest is borderline useless

No they aren't, they're still powerful, just but not scrapper levels of powerful. 

Supports are one of the biggest factors making WvW really terrible atm and none need to be buffed to scrappers level, scrapper needs to come back down to the rest of the games power level. 

[Zikory.6871]

Watch scrapper get dumpstered and everyone switches to tempest.