I feel excluded from EoD because Soo Won meta event is too hard

[Healix.5819]

7 minutes ago, AgentMoore.9453 said:

Wouldn't the obvious solution be an instanced version of the meta with good scaling that the story directs you to? Seems to work fine for Dragonstorm.

Imagine if it was instanced like Dragonstorm. Public would have a ~15% success rate and private would be complaining about having half the number of people. Participation would likely be a fraction of what it is. As is, people are treating this meta as "private" (majority of the map is filled via LFG), which at least allows some "public" players (people who enter the map naturally) to participate. I'm guessing that was the goal - they want open world players to form groups (which happened back in the Tequatl days) in hopes they start doing other content, specifically strikes.

[Astralporing.1957]

9 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

To be fair, one can learn how to do decent dps on their character without going to a 3rd party site. It requires reading the trait lines, and applying some small amount of critical thinking....Probably wont get you to fantastic dps, but decent.

Those are the people that are doing not 4k, but more like 6-8k. Some may be doing even as much as 10k. On normal world bosses, because on anything harder that can hinder your dps, those values get lowered. You can easily spot them in the usual OW squads, and there's a noticeable number of them. To get to consistent 5-digit values in easy environment however requires a jump most players are simply not capable of making without outside help. And by most players, i mean most even among the hardcore ones, because those that can do their own builds without relying on third-party info even in that group are extremely rare.

Hint: the builds capable of outputting that oft-mentioned 7k minimum dps value in DE event are builds that in easy environment are capable of doing at least twice-three times that, and those are generally already beyond that barrier i just spoke of.

So, the "decent" dps you speak of in this context is just not enough for EoD.

[AgentMoore.9453]

7 minutes ago, Healix.5819 said:

Imagine if it was instanced like Dragonstorm. Public would have a ~15% success rate and private would be complaining about having half the number of people.

That sounds more like Marionette to me, as that's an instanced fight that is not well-advertised by the game, has subpar rewards, and scales poorly. Dragonstorm is in the World Boss Portal Device, is tied directly into story progress, and appears to scale quite well for the amount of people in the instance. I normally see it highly-populated when I visit and haven't seen a failure since shortly after its release, but I suppose YMMV.

What I don't see is people in Dragonstorm asking other players to leave, complaining about DPS, or a high rate of failure. In every respect, it seems to have solved the problems the DE meta is having.

[The Boz.2038]

11 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Hint: the builds capable of outputting that oft-mentioned 7k minimum dps value in DE event are builds that in easy environment are capable of doing at least twice-three times that, and those are generally already beyond that barrier i just spoke of.

Nnnnope.

This is something Erise misunderstands too. ArcDPS doesn't take the whole 20-minute segment and divide your DPS by that. If Soo isn't there or isn't attackable, it doesn't "dilute" your DPS. The required DPS vs Soo Won is between 5.5k and 7k (would wager more on the 5.5k side, but whatever, details), and that *does not* translate to "you need to be able to do 15 or 20k DPS on golem" or something.
Just yesterday was doing 23k DPS on Soo with my ranger, which is far from my main, most practiced-rotation class.

[The Boz.2038]

8 minutes ago, AgentMoore.9453 said:

What I don't see is people in Dragonstorm asking other players to leave

Oh, on this one I have to say, no, the opposite. I have seen commanders kick people who "aren't pulling their weight" in Dragonstorm. Which is more toxic, since it boots you out of the instance.

[Astralporing.1957]

43 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Oh, on this one I have to say, no, the opposite. I have seen commanders kick people who "aren't pulling their weight" in Dragonstorm. Which is more toxic, since it boots you out of the instance.

You're talking about private instance. In a private instance that's both completely normal and understandable. Considering @AgentMoore.9453 was mentioning "asking" people to leave (which is not something that will happen in controlled instance, where you can just kick someone out if you don;t want them there), they were certainly talking about the public one.

And no, i haven't seen anyone asking people to leave from public DS like ever. No matter how badly some people might perform. I haven't seen any public DS instance suffering from lack of players either.

Edited May 23, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Nnnnope.

This is something Erise misunderstands too. ArcDPS doesn't take the whole 20-minute segment and divide your DPS by that. If Soo isn't there or isn't attackable, it doesn't "dilute" your DPS. The required DPS vs Soo Won is between 5.5k and 7k (would wager more on the 5.5k side, but whatever, details), and that *does not* translate to "you need to be able to do 15 or 20k DPS on golem" or something.
Just yesterday was doing 23k DPS on Soo with my ranger, which is far from my main, most practiced-rotation class.

I wasn't talking about downtimes. I was talking about the simple fact that on actual boss you will always be doing less dps than you can do on a golem. Because all the moving around, doing mechanics etc is going to lower your dps. So, your actual dps will always be lower than your theoretical one. How much you're going to lose depends on the boss, of course, but DE is not very forgiving in that regard.

i.e. condi scourges (one of the builds used in that hardstuck video) are one of the most forgiving dps builds you could use for that encounter, and capable of outputting over 30k dps - and yet the dps we could see was mediocre at best.

If that happens to a build with an over 30k (well, ~37k to be more precise) benchmark used by a good player (so, someone that in raid encounters could probably do like 25k easily), what would happen to a player that normally can do maybe 10k at best?

Edited May 23, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[Erise.5614]

1 hour ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Nnnnope.

This is something Erise misunderstands too. ArcDPS doesn't take the whole 20-minute segment and divide your DPS by that. If Soo isn't there or isn't attackable, it doesn't "dilute" your DPS. The required DPS vs Soo Won is between 5.5k and 7k (would wager more on the 5.5k side, but whatever, details), and that *does not* translate to "you need to be able to do 15 or 20k DPS on golem" or something.
Just yesterday was doing 23k DPS on Soo with my ranger, which is far from my main, most practiced-rotation class.

It is not a misunderstanding on my side. The HS commander set up arc in the normal PvE commander way. Manually adding the target ID to the list and locking target to encounter boss.

This way it will lock DPS to the encounter target and display the average DPS from when it detects a target ID having less than 100% HP until you defeat the enemy or leave combat. Soo Won is a bit awkward in that regard because according to arc it "dies" after 80% HP. But that is behavior you can (and should) set up for PvE commanding.

You can very clearly see this happening in the video.

If it did work the way you claimed then squad target DPS displayed at the top and the individual target DPS (the most left number) make no sense. They just do not behave that way. They don't reset to 0 during breaks. They do not jump when switching target. They slowly but continuously decrease while attacking adds completely detached from the cleave DPS. And slowly increase while attacking soo won. Incredibly slowly. By 100s per second. Also seemingly detached from cleave DPS. 

5k is the average you need to deal to Soo Won while being in combat. Which does include combat time without Soo Won and it does include reduction due to knockbacks and other reasons. Meaning you need to reach training golem numbers a lot higher than 5k to have any hope of reaching anything near that number during the encounter.

Reaching that is still possible with a semi decent build and some semblance of skill usage. But it's not quite as easy as AAing with any character or reachable with any support class.

Edited May 23, 2022 by Erise.5614

[The Boz.2038]

17 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

i.e. condi scourges (one of the builds used in that hardstuck video) are one of the most forgiving dps builds you could use for that encounter, and capable of outputting over 30k dps - and yet the dps we could see was mediocre at best.

Those were specifically minion necros. With minions. IE not running condi scourge builds. You can tell by the fact that Erise just linked it.

[The Boz.2038]

9 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

This way it will lock DPS to the encounter target

I mean, yeah, when you do special filters and conditions to your arc, it'll throw out special numbers. Have fun with them.
If you force it to lock to one target, and that target yet lives (it yet lives), it'll count from that. Notice how it is 0(!) during the split phases, lol. 

[Cuks.8241]

I think its good for the game that the meta is not in a private instance. Is it more frustrating at times? Yes. Even more so for players that are capable of organising themselves.

But having it in the private instance would just further divide the player base. The open world nature now gives all the players an opportunity to play the meta and to play together. In private instance it would be like private marionette. Great for me for example because with an organised group I had pretty much 100% success rate while most people complained how they cant get a working group together.

This meta is exactly what many players say they want. A learning event for harder content. It has basic mechanics and it requires at least some lvl of execution and dps to complete it. Because lets face it if you want a player to actually learn something about mechanics and roles and dps you have to put him in situation where those matter, together with other players from whom he can learn. I'm sure more players are familiar with the group compositions, support roles, builds, different abbreviations and requirements that someone is expected to meet to win such fights. Is it frustrating sometimes? Sure. But that is also part of the learning, with tougher fights you will lose. Loosing is not a failure, loosing is part of the learning. The only complaint I have is that it could be substantially shorter.

In the end regardless if its private or OW, you can just ignore it the same. And not experiencing the story is not an argument. You experience full story in story missions.

[Astralporing.1957]

44 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Those were specifically minion necros. With minions. IE not running condi scourge builds. You can tell by the fact that Erise just linked it.

Yeah. Minion necros only, definitely not condi builds. With half the squad being scourges, and torment, bleed and burning stacks on boss practically continuously showing "!"in count place.

You're right, though, that i should not have based my opinions just on the images. I looked at the video, and paid closer attention to the dps there. The dps counter is a bit wonky (sometimes showing 0 for extended periods even when the person making video and the rest of the squad are clearly attacking the boss, but suddenly start showing numbers when they move to the tail, for example), but apart from those zero moments, the usual dps is generally 5-8k at lows, with peaks topping 30k at some moment in top place, and going as high as ~25k in moments in the lowest place visible (10th). Which incidentally happens exactly during burn phases, where that dps is needed the most (and where it really counts). And i am talking about target damage, not cleave one.

I'm not sure how that is supposed to support the idea thak 5.5-7k is enough. We're clearly talking about a full squad of builds capable of doing 20-30k dps here.

Edited May 23, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[Erise.5614]

33 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

I mean, yeah, when you do special filters and conditions to your arc, it'll throw out special numbers. Have fun with them.
If you force it to lock to one target, and that target yet lives (it yet lives), it'll count from that. Notice how it is 0(!) during the split phases, lol. 

Yeah. The problem is the game object of Soo Won genuinely disappears. Doesn't just move away but is removed from the game world. So arc, not knowing about enrage timers or anything of the sort, assumes the combat is over. It fully resets once during the encounter and temporarily looses target a couple of times (same during wisp phase. Other players are too far away, you are out of combat so it assumes the fight is over and bugs out for a moment)

Like, absolutely no doubt. The entire encounter has not been optimized for arc usage^^

But it is exactly this number that is being shared. The 5k DPS number originates, best I can tell, from this reddit comment by a HS commander. By the HS commander whos video I've been using as example. Who uses the number in exactly the way I've been trying to explain.

[Vayne.8563]

7 hours ago, AgentMoore.9453 said:

I see Astralporing tried to address this, but let me ask it in a different way.

You think a significant amount of people 'need' (or would benefit from) OW content as difficult as the DE meta, but you also don't want to be on the same map as them - which you typically have no control over in the open world. Wouldn't the obvious solution be an instanced version of the meta with good scaling that the story directs you to? Seems to work fine for Dragonstorm.

What I'm getting at here is that the combination of (and eventual conflict between) casual and invested players was never necessary and is not having the positive effect you're hoping for. The view that throwing casual players at challenging OW content will somehow harden them or make them enjoy challenges is about as unrealistic as throwing a bunch of raiders at Queensdale-level content and wondering why they're bored. If you're still uncertain about that, look up the many threads about Hearts And Minds (And Migraine), Triple Trouble, Serpent's Ire, and other previous attempts at introducing players to heightened levels of coordination and difficulty. There's a saying about doing something repeatedly and expecting a different result...

Tough and easygoing content have always had their places in the game, and I promise that people know where to go looking for them when they want one or the other (or both). There's a reason ArenaNet typically does not mix these things together and Trahearne had it figured out all the way back in personal story: This won't end well.

It doesn't work fine for Dragonstorm, because Dragonstorm has two bits, a public and a private instance. And it's easy/straight-forward enough for the public instance to virtually always succeed and then it doesn't take 2 hours, it takes 15 minutes. Comparing DE to Dragonstorm is like comparing  New York City to East Peoria, Illinois.  It's bigger, more confusing and a whole lot more dangerous.

 

When you look on the other hand, at the public version of the Marionette fight, you'll find it's rarely done because the rewards are not great (they're okay) and the chance of failure is much higher.  Why didn't you compare DE to that one?

[The Boz.2038]

4 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

topping 30k at some moment in top place, and going as high as ~25k in moments

Wait. You claimed you can't reach those numbers because it's a real fight and there's mechanics and adds and such. 
But here we are, with "those numbers". Numbers that aren't one quarter the benchmark. On unoptimized, rune of the lich-toting, death-magic-detonating minion necros that happen to use condi stats. Truly impossible to reach the numbers, yo.

[Astralporing.1957]

1 minute ago, Vayne.8563 said:

It doesn't work fine for Dragonstorm, because Dragonstorm has two bits, a public and a private instance. And it's easy/straight-forward enough for the public instance to virtually always succeed and then it doesn't take 2 hours, it takes 15 minutes. Comparing DE to Dragonstorm is like comparing  New York City to East Peoria, Illinois.  It's bigger, more confusing and a whole lot more dangerous.

 

When you look on the other hand, at the public version of the Marionette fight, you'll find it's rarely done because the rewards are not great (they're okay) and the chance of failure is much higher.  Why didn't you compare DE to that one?

That obviously shows that the problem lies not in whether the content is instanced, but in difficulty and rewards. Putting DE in instanced content would not change anything. Still the groups that feel now it is worth doing would be doing it, and the normal ow crowd would still not be doing it. The difference is that there would be far less groups that try to do it, hit their face on their difficulty barrier and fail after wasting 2 hours of their time.

[Astralporing.1957]

3 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Wait. You claimed you can't reach those numbers because it's a real fight and there's mechanics and adds and such. 
But here we are, with "those numbers". Numbers that aren't one quarter the benchmark. On unoptimized, rune of the lich-toting, death-magic-detonating minion necros that happen to use condi stats. Truly impossible to reach the numbers, yo.

The 30k dps is done by video maker. Which admitted in reddit to have been running proper raid power necro dps build, just with minions in utility slots (which btw is not a big dps loss for that build, it is already running 2 or 3 minions normally, so it is basically a change of one or two slots, none of which offer big dps values). The overall dps value for that player was the abovementioned 5k, but (again) that was admitted to take in consideration all the downtimes during they weren't dps-in the boss.

So yeah, you can do it with players doing overall 5k dps damage. But those players need to be running builds with dps potential that is way, way higher.

Again, every single build in that video whose dps we could see had capabilities that vastly outstrip what the OW players are able to come up with on their own. Basically even what the top tier players consider to be only joke/meme builds is still several times stronger than what average players run.

[The Boz.2038]

8 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

it is basically a change of one or two slots, none of which offer big dps values

Build normally uses precisely 1, the golem. Sometimes 0. Exceedingly rarely 2, if you really want that heal minion, even if signet is a better idea. 
Wells are huge for DPS. 
Power signet too. 
Also, rune for extra minions, but, you know, minor point. 
Still. Does numbers. Which you said it can't. Amazing, innit.

[Dante.1508]

9 hours ago, TexZero.7910 said:

You're doing it wrong then.

I've done nearly 50 runs, 47 of them have been succesful. The 3 that weren't were all pre-nerf and balance adjustments to the fight.

 

You need to be on map, getting organized and listed in LFG during the preperations phase. You ideally want everyone on the map to do at a minimum 5 events and each region to get to High readiness. Then during the assualt phase all you need to do is evenly split up between east and west and let a small group of 5-10 take care of center. Once east and west are done and everyone is back at the dragon crystal phase split up evenly again into groups of 5-8 people killing mobs and 1-2 people catching orb and tossing them onto the pylons.

When fighting Su Won prioritize damaging her, then any thorn hearts. As is right now there's enough damage in the game to almost completely ignore her tail phases, however if your group dps is low you'll need to deal with that too. Split phase(s) split evenly...kill roughly the same time. Collect loot.

Sure you have.. i've done 6 and 5 were a mess.. 2 hours plus each time wasted.. Nope not gonna bother.

 

Kinda on topic.. But what bothers me about these so called 38k dps builds is they stand there hitting this Golem that doesn't move doesn't attack back or throw AoEs everywhere and claim their builds overpowered.... Every single Youtube build... Then in actual real life nothing just stands there and willingly lets you wail on it..

Edited May 24, 2022 by Dante.1508

[Linken.6345]

1 hour ago, Dante.1508 said:

Sure you have.. i've done 6 and 5 were a mess.. 2 hours plus each time wasted.. Nope not gonna bother.

 

Kinda on topic.. But what bothers me about these so called 38k dps builds is they stand there hitting this Golem that doesn't move doesn't attack back or throw AoEs everywhere and claim their builds overpowered.... Every single Youtube build... Then in actual real life nothing just stands there and willingly lets you wail on it..

First two bosses of wing 4 begs to differ with your statement

[AgentMoore.9453]

3 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Dragonstorm has two bits, a public and a private instance.

Yes it does, and that's what DE's meta should have (since they've already decided to make it an OW map event). The public (OW) version of the encounter should be tuned to be more like previous open world offerings, and the instanced version should retain its current level of challenge and coordination, possibly with CM achievements added for it if people feel a need for something like that.

Suddenly, organized people wouldn't have to futz around ahead of time trying to get on a fresh/successful map for efficient clears (that they may not get despite their efforts), and players unaccustomed to the high demands of the current DE battle can enjoy a better success rate for all the time and effort they're pouring into the public map as well as appreciating the truly enjoyable and cinematic nature of the fight itself.

Dunno about you, but I'd want the grand finale of my big 10-year story to reach as many people as possible instead of being seen as a brick wall. Further, I'd want people to go back and keep playing it instead of knocking it down once (or never) and then never looking back.

3 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Why didn't you compare DE to that one (Marionette)?

Because Dragonstorm is an example of an instanced meta that works well and solves the issues of the DE meta. It is well-implemented in that it has a reasonable time investment and is easily accessible through the World Boss Portal Device. The Marionette is implemented poorly and is therefore a poor example of what I was talking about.

[Fuchslein.8639]

3 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

Sure you have.. i've done 6 and 5 were a mess.. 2 hours plus each time wasted.. Nope not gonna bother.

 

Kinda on topic.. But what bothers me about these so called 38k dps builds is they stand there hitting this Golem that doesn't move doesn't attack back or throw AoEs everywhere and claim their builds overpowered.... Every single Youtube build... Then in actual real life nothing just stands there and willingly lets you wail on it..

You know this is exactly the point of this Golem-showcases?

I know there are some people who hit close to this numbers on real Bosses. But for most people its about memory. When you make big numbers on the Golem, the chance isd high you also make good dmg on Bosses. Because you know what you have to do, whitout watching what you have to do, muscle-memory and stuff. And with this, you have more time concentrating on the boss-mechanics.

And you also need to differentiate. I didn't read all posts here and don't know what for builds where postet. But esspecially raid-builds are exactly this, it's made for raids and an specific group set-up. So you schouldn't expect to make these numbers in OW, whitout no buffs and such. BUT, when you play your'e charakter well, not only dodging but just side-stepping and stuff, you can do quite some dmg whitout problems. I personally have most of the time no problems with raid-builds in OW. But i also have some builds i made myself, because i know my class. And thats the cornerstone. At some point, you need to try and understand your'e class. No build will do this for you. Even the tankiest build gets you slayed when you have no idea what you are doing.

Edited May 24, 2022 by Fuchslein.8639

[Silent.6137]

11 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

 Considering @AgentMoore.9453 was mentioning "asking" people to leave (which is not something that will happen in controlled instance, where you can just kick someone out if you don;t want them there), they were certainly talking about the public one.

And no, i haven't seen anyone asking people to leave from public DS like ever. No matter how badly some people might perform. I haven't seen any public DS instance suffering from lack of players either.

Who would you ask to leave? Ryland or Braham? Maybe Jormag or Primordus? There's no one farming there. The meta starts and you get in for the public instance. Once the instance is full, another will open. You won't even know how someone else is doing if you''re not in a party with them.

On a personal note, I find commanders that ask people to leave the map often very distasteful. It's rather rude even if they use the word "Please". "Please leave the map if you're not doing the meta". No. Just no. You came onto the map I was on and you want me to just leave? The squad of 50 is not more important than any single individual.

However, there are polite ways of asking, such as "If you're not here for the meta, please consider joining (our squad). Or consider relocating to another map so we can get the rest of our squad in". Seen some commanders who actually know how to ask politely.

4 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

Sure you have.. i've done 6 and 5 were a mess.. 2 hours plus each time wasted.. Nope not gonna bother.

TexZero getting 47/50 is nothing special. Just got my 77th win tonight out of 82 (same thing - most of the losses were pre-nerfed). And my personal win wouldn't even come anywhere close to the top 100 wins. It just takes over an hour to get the necessary stacks and finish the meta.

Edited May 24, 2022 by Silent.6137

[Erise.5614]

7 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

So this is straight up gaslighting levels of argumentation here.
As I said, Arc will zero out when Soo isn't there. You countered, said the opposite, and provided video evidence. Video evidence zeroes out, just as I said it does. And here you go, explain my own point back to me, pretending that's what you meant.

Absolutely shameful rhetoric, right here. Please do better.

That is not what I said. You claimed target DPS = the damage currently dealt to the target.

I claimed target DPS = the DPS throughout the encounter (so long as anyone in the squad is combat including add phases).

It may bug out temporarily and display a wrong number. But the way most PvE commanders use it, it does not display the current / peak DPS dealt as you claimed.

7 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

P.S. 5.5k DPS peak performance needed. Point still stands.

Source? 

[The Boz.2038]

2 hours ago, Erise.5614 said:

That is not what I said. You claimed target DPS = the damage currently dealt to the target.

You can't even get my claim right. 
Impressive, really.
Battle still zeroes out!

Source: Soo Won is a fight against five separate Soos Wons that each have ~35M health (it goes 30, 50, 20, 40, 30. If you do mechanics right, you will have about 2 minutes per health phase, and ~2 minutes per off phase, give or take. 30,000,000 divided by 50, divided by 120 = 5833.