No successful online PvP game has healers that are also tanks

[Nymthalas.4019]

1 minute ago, Curennos.9307 said:

If you read the last few sentences of my post, you'll notice I specifically call out support-focused specter builds. Are teams running specters with sage/avatar, a healing rune, transference sigil, and shadow arts?

 

IF they are I'd be very interested in seeing some videos, but if not your comment is irrelevant. 

 

You didn't get my point, you critize a usefull role that teams needs only 1 in the team ( btw would be nice to have more specs able to do that) and afaik is not really good to have more than 1. But you don't say nothing of an elite spec that has to be more broken as only 1 elite spec is looked for to be 2 or 3 slots of a 5 players team.

[Curennos.9307]

14 minutes ago, Nymthalas.4019 said:

 

You didn't get my point, you critize a usefull role that teams needs only 1 in the team ( btw would be nice to have more specs able to do that) and afaik is not really good to have more than 1. But you don't say nothing of an elite spec that has to be more broken as only 1 elite spec is looked for to be 2 or 3 slots of a 5 players team.

That's an entirely different conversation I pointedly refrained from addressing. My post was specifically in the context of support - and I guarantee you that teams aren't taking multiple support-speced specter builds - so your point is entirely irrelevant to what I want to address. There's an app called Twitter if you're really interested in trying to fling extraneous subjects at someone because they just happened to mention a sliver of something relating to whatever you're mad about.

 

 

[Nymthalas.4019]

 

2 hours ago, Curennos.9307 said:

That's an entirely different conversation I pointedly refrained from addressing. My post was specifically in the context of support - and I guarantee you that teams aren't taking multiple support-speced specter builds - so your point is entirely irrelevant to what I want to address. There's an app called Twitter if you're really interested in trying to fling extraneous subjects at someone because they just happened to mention a sliver of something relating to whatever you're mad about.

 

 

The way of proving your point is being rude, not gonna waste my time explaining why it is related. cya!

[Bazsi.2734]

OP complaining about stat combos that do not exist in PvP... so thread gets moved into PvP. Could we not?

[felix.2386]

On 4/1/2022 at 5:26 PM, Frick.2635 said:

Bridgette? Alistar? Paladins?

No gonna lie bridgette was the biggest mistake in own history and almost killed ow competition single handly, and dev wish they didn't make her

[Swagg.9236]

Holy bruh, Overwatch was never naturally successful (it just had money infusions to effectively keep the marketing league alive) and WoW PvP was always riddled with meme metas before it became something that nobody wanted to watch anymore.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

On 4/3/2022 at 1:56 PM, Ragnar.4257 said:

In plat/leg they are, in gold people prefer to let the support free-cast and then come to forums when nothing is dying.

This is wrong…You have that backwards. Healers are never the focus target in high level games. I don’t know if you could tell but Grimjack was using sarcasm here.

 

DPS is always the target to focus in high level games. All top players know this cause it allows them to 1v2; fighting a DPS and his pocket healer, where by keeping the DPS pressured (preventing them from doing damage to you) you are essentially just fighting a 0v2…it’s every duelists PvP dream.

 

 In addition because some healers are tanky, like guardian, you let DPS free-cast on you while you spend minutes trying to kill the healer… much worse situation.

Edited April 8, 2022 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Spellhunter.9675]

1 minute ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

This is wrong…You have that backwards. Healers are never supposed to be the focus target. I don’t know if you could tell but Grimjack was using sarcasm here.

 

DPS is always the target to focus in high level games. All top players know this cause it allows them to 1v2; fighting a DPS and his pocket healer, where by keeping the DPS pressured (preventing them from doing damage to you) you are essentially just fighting a 0v1…it’s every duelists PvP dream.

 

 In addition because healers are tanky, like guardian, you let DPS free-cast on you while you spend minutes trying to kill the healer… much worse situation.

I don't know about Grimjack's sarcasm, but what I see in actual p1-3 games on EU enemy support is always the first target. Usually in soloQ teams can't peel for their support properly and it makes support easy target.

Also, if you focus dps first, then usually support can just signet him. And there is no reliable way to stop it if you don't have your thief around.

But I must notice I almost don't play after EoD. Maybe now something changed. 

[Ragnar.4257]

41 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

This is wrong…You have that backwards. Healers are never the focus target in high level games. I don’t know if you could tell but Grimjack was using sarcasm here.

 

DPS is always the target to focus in high level games. All top players know this cause it allows them to 1v2; fighting a DPS and his pocket healer, where by keeping the DPS pressured (preventing them from doing damage to you) you are essentially just fighting a 0v2…it’s every duelists PvP dream.

 

 In addition because some healers are tanky, like guardian, you let DPS free-cast on you while you spend minutes trying to kill the healer… much worse situation.

No.

Having played my fair sure of high level games, and if you care to watch tournaments you'll also observe this, the support goes down first pretty often, since denying  a signet/glyph rez is a major win. Obviously you focus down a glassy-spec if its out of position and an easy quick kill, but if its a big 4v4 on a point where there are no isolated targets, you target the support and hold W. "90% of the time" is perhaps an exaggeration, but it's certainly fairly common.

But I know you won't consider my experience, just on principle, so why don't you go and poll other top players about how often they target the support.

Edited April 8, 2022 by Ragnar.4257

[Morwath.9817]

Especially when you force Guardian to blow his heal on someone else so he can't heal himself anymore 🙃

[SexyMofo.8923]

They did better: They removed the entire esports scene. 

[Ragnar.4257]

45 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

This is wrong…You have that backwards. Healers are never the focus target in high level games. I don’t know if you could tell but Grimjack was using sarcasm here.

 

DPS is always the target to focus in high level games. All top players know this cause it allows them to 1v2; fighting a DPS and his pocket healer, where by keeping the DPS pressured (preventing them from doing damage to you) you are essentially just fighting a 0v2…it’s every duelists PvP dream.

 

 In addition because some healers are tanky, like guardian, you let DPS free-cast on you while you spend minutes trying to kill the healer… much worse situation.

Just looking back at last MAT:

Observe blue team thirsting after red guardian:

https://youtu.be/gYAUaOJ4zxs?t=2858

Observe again blue team focusing down red guardian while at the same time red team focuses blue guardian:

https://youtu.be/gYAUaOJ4zxs?t=2951

Next fight, yet again blue focusing red guardian:

https://youtu.be/gYAUaOJ4zxs?t=3041

We don't see the fight here, but look at red guardians HP to observe that it is clearly the target:

https://youtu.be/gYAUaOJ4zxs?t=3199

And this is just one match. I know you disagree with me just instinctively, but there is objective evidence here.

But maybe that's a one-off? Well, very next match:

Red trying (and failing) to focus blue guardian:

https://youtu.be/gYAUaOJ4zxs?t=3906

Next teamfight, lets see who gets chased down and downed first, oh right, it's red tempest:

https://youtu.be/gYAUaOJ4zxs?t=4050

And when we jump away and back to the same fight a few seconds later, who're red focusing? Yes, it's blue guardian:

https://youtu.be/gYAUaOJ4zxs?t=4125

That match finishes, Teapot hops over to the next match, and guess what we immediately see? A guardian in downstate after presumably being first target in a teamfight:

https://youtu.be/gYAUaOJ4zxs?t=4322

Jumping to quarterfinals, first teamfight of the match, what dies first? Yes, it's the tempest:

https://youtu.be/gYAUaOJ4zxs?t=5994

Lots of dead matches, jumping to the next full one, oh look, its a 2v2 on far, lets take a gander at what target the two blue players have selected:

https://youtu.be/gYAUaOJ4zxs?t=6809

That fight then develops into a 3v3, what target have red selected and forced to leave the fight?:

https://youtu.be/gYAUaOJ4zxs?t=6865

That match is a bit of a blow-out, so lets jump to the next one:

https://youtu.be/gYAUaOJ4zxs?t=7220

wellety wellety wellety, red tempest and blue guardian both kiting for their lives, red tempest goes down first.

 

I can keep doing this all day.

 

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

23 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

I know you disagree with me just instinctively,

 

You can just ask @Grimjack.8130 yourself, I'm sure he'd tell you otherwise.

 

You can watch as many games as you want, or you can well you know...play them. If you want to throw the match, tell your pug team to focus the enemy tank ahem... I mean healer... instead of the derpy flamethrower scrapper full-wiping your team (lol).

Edited April 8, 2022 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Ragnar.4257]

2 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

DPS is always the target to focus in high level games.

 

59 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

derpy flamethrower scrapper full-wiping your team

😂

[FarmBotXD.1430]

On 4/1/2022 at 10:26 PM, Frick.2635 said:

Bridgette? Alistar? Paladins?

EDIT
If you can call alistar a healer because once in a blue moon his passive goes off to heal someone for 10% hp at best then in the same boat shiro rev is a healer because it can use a staff to heal someone for equally as much 😄

Edited April 9, 2022 by FarmBotXD.1430

[Carnage.6751]

On 4/2/2022 at 2:22 AM, Leolas.6273 said:

Holy Trinity is boring af. Every MMO Copypaste this oldshool mechanic. Thats why MMO today fail hard. 

 

This quate proves this person def don't know nothing about mmorpg.MMO today failed hard not because of Holy Trinity mechanic.Oversimplification,removing social aspect,greedy microtransactions.And contrary you said mmorpg failed because they design to game base on solo players.And result of that this party roles  dump into classes.That why in new mmorpgs we have classes can tank also heal also peel entire team *cough Guardian cough*.Also damage characters can dive into teamfights can stay alive with lifesteal .New mmoRPGs targeting on casual players with power fantasy.Show flashy skills and impressive graphics maybe little fanservice and we are good to go.

[otto.5684]

I dunno about that. Most MMOs I played, healers tend to be very survivable. It is nearly impossible for a dps to kill equally skilled healer. 

[smiiirf.3201]

On 4/10/2022 at 5:37 PM, Carnage.6751 said:

This quate proves this person def don't know nothing about mmorpg.MMO today failed hard not because of Holy Trinity mechanic.Oversimplification,removing social aspect,greedy microtransactions.And contrary you said mmorpg failed because they design to game base on solo players.And result of that this party roles  dump into classes.That why in new mmorpgs we have classes can tank also heal also peel entire team *cough Guardian cough*.Also damage characters can dive into teamfights can stay alive with lifesteal .New mmoRPGs targeting on casual players with power fantasy.Show flashy skills and impressive graphics maybe little fanservice and we are good to go.

 Yeah i only play MMO's  since Ultima Online so i do not know anything. 😄

But certainly also for this reason. Every new MMO has simply been a copy in a new guise. Does not everyone want to always play the same crap and start from scratch. Gw 2 Battlesystem is a fresh air in this case.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Leolas.6273

[Dadnir.5038]

I think the OP is missing a point. Apart from maybe specter, there in no healer in this game. From the moment the support healing is done through area of effect, the concept of healer disappear to leave it's place to the concept of tank as the character is considered as merely sharing his own sustain.

Now, sure there are modifiers that make the character heal it's allies for more than he can heal himself with the same skills, but you'd have to put a lot more emphasis onto those mods to get a true area of effect healer (The healing mods would need to multiply by at least 10 time small area of effect heals instead of the 2x max we have in the current game.)

At the same time, you'd just need 2 healers to team up to become invincible tanks... So you'd also need to make damage mitigation, health pool and toughness worth a lot more than there are right now to create a wide enough difference between a tank and a healer. Which would lead to a need to take a closer look at the stats combination offered by gear or amulet.

Well, this amount of changes is already at the realm of being a whole new game.

[De Bourgogne.9642]

Flat out misinformation. 

In GW2 a power herald can sit on Guardian and it will kill it in 2 minutes for sure (1v1).

You can sit on healer in WoW for 15 mins and you probably die to it lmao. 

Soraka in lol you can literally build tank items on her (spirit visage) and it becomes tanky but still heals a lot because soraka is broken. 

[Carnage.6751]

19 hours ago, Leolas.6273 said:

 Yeah i only play MMO's  since Ultima Online so i do not know anything. 😄

But certainly also for this reason. Every new MMO has simply been a copy in a new guise. Does not everyone want to always play the same crap and start from scratch. Gw 2 Battlesystem is a fresh air in this case.

Playing so much  mmorpg proves you are understand system behind create a well build mmorpg?İf you are a veteran mmo player u must know why Mmorpg fall from grace since Late 90's.

This 3 role was exist bc they had weakness and strenghts. They were ez to balance.Look at Guild Wars 2 Balance system?You saying giving people so much option is a fresh air.But if you can't balance this elements in relevant sense your options means nothing.You rather go for meta or suffer for it.No wonder Gw 2 focuses on PvE.They design to classes as eye candies and they didn't care how they will be balanced.

Edited April 13, 2022 by Carnage.6751

[Dadnir.5038]

On 4/13/2022 at 5:00 AM, Carnage.6751 said:

This 3 role was exist bc they had weakness and strenghts

Let's keep in mind that these 3 role create as much issue than they solve. GW used to have tank and healer leading to excessively stale PvP game. SWTOR did have these 3 role when I played it and if you were to put 2 healer/tank combo facing each other, you would be in a stalemate for the whole duration of the PvP game (I did it once. I had a lot of fun for 10 or so minutes but nobody died in the end and we can't really say that it was playing as intended).

And this is true for many other games, the holy trinity isn't as "balanced" and "fun" as you believe it is. In the end, the holy trinity favor numerical superiority just like what GW2 have do.