Vigor disparity

[viquing.8254]

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vigor

"Traits that grant vigor"

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Critical_Infusion

 

Can we stop discrimination please ? Or is it normal that meta class since 2 + years are allowed to have a near 100% vigor uptime while unmeta classes can't ?

And I'm not even looking at raw endurance regen because there is also big disparities.

 

Edited April 7, 2022 by viquing.8254

[Crab Fear.1624]

Coughs in blurred inscriptions.

[viquing.8254]

yeah so meta

[Ragnar.4257]

I mean, on that list, warrior, guardian and necro all also only have 1. So you're saying guardian and necro are not meta?

It's not bad design for some classes to have more or less access to a particular thing than others. 

[viquing.8254]

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vigorous_Precision

I'm talking about uptime from similar traits.

In which world necro have to evade 😄

Note that all "on evade" give better uptime too.

The problem is when some has better weapon temporisation + damage + evade +mobility uptime.

Edited April 7, 2022 by viquing.8254

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

Mesmer 3s vigor 10s icd is the biggest joke, nerfed only because of Mirage even though they could have just nerfed Mirage's own vigor more instead.

Edited April 7, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[Ragnar.4257]

14 minutes ago, viquing.8254 said:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vigorous_Precision

I'm talking about uptime from similar traits.

In which world necro have to evade 😄

Note that all "on evade" give better uptime too.

The problem is when some has better weapon temporisation + damage + evade +mobility uptime.

So why are you tunnel-visioning on the very specific question of "traits that grant vigor" when, as you say, it's important to consider the package as a whole? I'd expect thief to have more vigor access than, say, necro, but that's okay since necro has effectively 500% more HP.

[grx.8714]

2 hours ago, viquing.8254 said:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vigor

"Traits that grant vigor"

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Critical_Infusion

 

Can we stop discrimination please ? Or is it normal that meta class since 2 + years are allowed to have a near 100% vigor uptime while unmeta classes can't ?

And I'm not even looking at raw endurance regen because there is also big disparities.

 

Aegis is a much bigger problem, everytime you team fight and the enemy has a sup guard it's all block block block block block block immune immune immune block block block invuln..." and repeat.

[viquing.8254]

10 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

So why are you tunnel-visioning on the very specific question of "traits that grant vigor" when, as you say, it's important to consider the package as a whole? I'd expect thief to have more vigor access than, say, necro, but that's okay since necro has effectively 500% more HP.

And I would except mes to have more vigor as it has no mobility, no damage, no assist, no passive 3k autoproc.

Worst part is that they try to make bunker virtuoso a thing.

I look at the package compared to let say other one evade class. Well why did it can spam more evade than mirage while having more all ?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Restorative Strength should grant vigor. Change my mind.

Edited April 7, 2022 by Lan Deathrider.5910

[Buran.3796]

11 minutes ago, grx.8714 said:

Aegis is a much bigger problem, everytime you team fight and the enemy has a sup guard it's all block block block block block block immune immune immune block block block invuln..." and repeat.

   The game is full of unblockable attacks or procs which makes unblockable your next attack/s .

[grx.8714]

8 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

   The game is full of unblockable attacks or procs which makes unblockable your next attack/s .

I'm an ele main, wish I had those 😄 just gale...

Edited April 8, 2022 by grx.8714

[Swagg.9236]

Vigor is such a dead-end, cul-de-sac mechanic anyway.  Literally no interaction with anything except energy regen, and it's arbitrarily distributed across all classes with no rhyme or reason--most often passively rather than something that has any real opportunity cost.  It'd be a better decision to just delete vigor and then increase everyone's endurance regen by 50%.

[grx.8714]

33 minutes ago, Swagg.9236 said:

Vigor is such a dead-end, cul-de-sac mechanic anyway.  Literally no interaction with anything except energy regen, and it's arbitrarily distributed across all classes with no rhyme or reason--most often passively rather than something that has any real opportunity cost.  It'd be a better decision to just delete vigor and then increase everyone's endurance regen by 50%.

It is one of the stronger boons available.

More frequent windows to completely deny damage, which is better than any passive heal, damage reduction etc.

[Swagg.9236]

2 hours ago, grx.8714 said:

It is one of the stronger boons available.

More frequent windows to completely deny damage, which is better than any passive heal, damage reduction etc.

Where did I say that vigor wasn't strong??  I said that vigor is super narrow in scope.

It has a single, non-scaling effect which only applies to an isolated resource pool used for just a single thing.  Moreover, there are no traits, skills or any other element which interacts with vigor outside of just passively making it stronger.  Vigor is a trash game mechanic design because it doesn't do anything interesting, it's distributed to classes without any real logic, it's more often passively applied than something which players actively maintain, and it 

Besides a 2% damage boost on some ele builds, what would GW2 HONESTLY lose nothing if vigor were deleted tomorrow--replaced instead with a baseline 50% regeneration rate to everyone's endurance pool?  It's not like dodging is the main manner of negating damage anymore.  Honestly, how long are you going to survive in PvP if all you use are your dodges?  This game is so automatic nowadays with how many attacks have teleports and passive damage negation built into them, that you'll never compete if you only have manual dodging.

[Kuma.1503]

7 minutes ago, Swagg.9236 said:

Moreover, there are no traits, skills or any other element which interacts with vigor outside of just passively making it stronger.  

*The quiet sound of Excessive Energy roasting in a dumpster fire*

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

11 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Mesmer 3s vigor 10s icd is the biggest joke, nerfed only because of Mirage even though they could have just nerfed Mirage's own vigor more instead.

They nerfed both. Its like the little girl meme "why not both". 

I've been saying for a long time 3 vigor traits on mesmer = 1 vigor trait of some other professions, just pathetic. 

[Swagg.9236]

52 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

*The quiet sound of Excessive Energy roasting in a dumpster fire*

In the tools line.  A line that passively gives you vigor for doing stuff that engineer already does.  It's hardly active or engaging.  It's just a direct upgrade that the player is going to get for free without thinking.  Again, that's why vigor is so trash.  If you're going to give something to people for free without them asking for it most of the time, why even have it at all?  Or rather, why make it a choice?  Just bake it in baseline.

Edited April 8, 2022 by Swagg.9236

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

5 hours ago, grx.8714 said:

I'm an ele main, wish I had those 😄 just gale...

2 hours ago, Swagg.9236 said:

Where did I say that vigor wasn't strong??  I said that vigor is super narrow in scope.

It has a single, non-scaling effect which only applies to an isolated resource pool used for just a single thing.  Moreover, there are no traits, skills or any other element which interacts with vigor outside of just passively making it stronger.  Vigor is a trash game mechanic design because it doesn't do anything interesting, it's distributed to classes without any real logic, it's more often passively applied than something which players actively maintain, and it 

Besides a 2% damage boost on some ele builds, what would GW2 HONESTLY lose nothing if vigor were deleted tomorrow--replaced instead with a baseline 50% regeneration rate to everyone's endurance pool?  It's not like dodging is the main manner of negating damage anymore.  Honestly, how long are you going to survive in PvP if all you use are your dodges?  This game is so automatic nowadays with how many attacks have teleports and passive damage negation built into them, that you'll never compete if you only have manual dodging.

Yes because if the endurance regen were baseline there wouldn't be a tradeoff to choosing vigor traits. The point of picking dueling over inspiration, for example, should be that dueling gives you more dodges while inspiration gives you more healing.

Edited April 8, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[viquing.8254]

8 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

They nerfed both. Its like the little girl meme "why not both". 

I've been saying for a long time 3 vigor traits on mesmer = 1 vigor trait of some other professions, just pathetic. 

When you spend 90% of time out of point because of this, it's a problem IMO.

[Swagg.9236]

6 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Yes because if the endurance regen were baseline there wouldn't be a tradeoff to choosing vigor traits. The point of picking dueling over inspiration, for example, should be that dueling gives you more dodges while inspiration gives you more healing.

Critical Infusion is the reason to take DUELING?  Are you MAD?  Yeah, I definitely roll the Dueling traitline for the passive vigor and not at all for the insane, passive blind application which instantly negates incoming damage while I'm condi-dumping and attacking at point-blank range.

Vigor traits are almost always chosen by association with a bunch of other overpowered traitlines.  Nobody is going deep into the paint on one trait line exclusively for free vigor; people only pick it up if it's convenient (i.e. the obvious choice within one section of a traitline).  And even then, vigor will get beaten out by other stuff very consistently.  For instance, show me:

• the tempest who honestly choses Latent Stamina over Unstable Conduit.
• the ranger taking Primal Reflexes over Trapper's Expertise.
• the thief justifying Bountiful Theft exclusively on the grounds that it grants vigor rather than the free, easy boon removal.
• the warrior who would rather invest into vigor for more dodges as opposed to taking weapons with high, passive evasion built into an attack rotation

Show me the build that survives exclusively on endurance and high vigor up-time, and I'll tell you that you're probably need to put on your glasses because you're actually watching a Dark Souls stream and GW2 is entirely carried by passive damage mitigation built into attacks and scripted movement skills.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

2 hours ago, Swagg.9236 said:

Critical Infusion is the reason to take DUELING?  Are you MAD?  Yeah, I definitely roll the Dueling traitline for the passive vigor and not at all for the insane, passive blind application which instantly negates incoming damage while I'm condi-dumping and attacking at point-blank range.

Vigor traits are almost always chosen by association with a bunch of other overpowered traitlines.  Nobody is going deep into the paint on one trait line exclusively for free vigor; people only pick it up if it's convenient (i.e. the obvious choice within one section of a traitline).  And even then, vigor will get beaten out by other stuff very consistently.  For instance, show me:

• the tempest who honestly choses Latent Stamina over Unstable Conduit.
• the ranger taking Primal Reflexes over Trapper's Expertise.
• the thief justifying Bountiful Theft exclusively on the grounds that it grants vigor rather than the free, easy boon removal.
• the warrior who would rather invest into vigor for more dodges as opposed to taking weapons with high, passive evasion built into an attack rotation

Show me the build that survives exclusively on endurance and high vigor up-time, and I'll tell you that you're probably need to put on your glasses because you're actually watching a Dark Souls stream and GW2 is entirely carried by passive damage mitigation built into attacks and scripted movement skills.

First of all, of course the vigor is not the main reason to take dueling, which is partly because it has gotten nerfed multiple times which is kinda the point of this thread. Secondly, the blind is not passive.

Nothing survives exclusively on Vigor lmao (I guess we could say SD thief is the closest). That doesn't mean anything first of all, second of all the strength of Vigor got halved in 2015, before that these vigor traits were actually very strong. For example Critical Infusion on Mesmer used to give perma Vigor, and that was when vigor was +100% endurance regeneration.

Edited April 8, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[Grimjack.8130]

not every class gets every tool, especially for the same investment that another class gets something for

seems simple to me

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

I wish my main gripe with my main class was "I get slightly less vigor than some other classes"  tbh

Edited April 8, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[viquing.8254]

13 hours ago, Grimjack.8130 said:

not every class gets every tool, especially for the same investment that another class gets something for

seems simple to me

Yeah, so some classes are allowed to have 2 times more tools than other classes , thanks captain obious.